Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

09:00

Ah, you wanted to ask my sentence? That's quite strange!

Hmm... maybe you meant ask him about my sentence. Still strange.

I'd never refer to any of my sentences as her.

Avicenna

Sorry for confusing you. I was just kidding.

After 4 years in college which was a tough time, she started a new life.

Jim Reynolds

@Avicenna Some sentences are combined of heorsheorit, which is horseshit.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see!

Avicenna

I meant this she in your sentense, she started...

@JimReynolds o_O

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Some day, we may have a new pronoun, sheit, a combo of he, she, it, standing for anything or anyone.

:P

A future English learner may have to learn only one third-person pronoun, if it happened. :P

Avicenna

09:06

@JimReynolds Do you see any difference between these sentences?

After years of uncertainty and upheaval allowed ISIS militants to gain a foothold in the country, the U.S. has begun carrying out airstrikes to try and oust them.

And

After years of uncertainty and upheaval that allowed ISIS militants to gain a foothold in the country, the U.S. has begun carrying out airstrikes to try and oust them.

I thikn that puts more emphasise on the years of uncertainty and upheaval which were the cause of the growth of ISIS power, and this way it attracts more atention on.

@DamkerngT. Sees no difference.

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna And wondering if it's really felicitous without that. :)

Avicenna

But I think the first one is just declarative, i.e. just giving information.

Jim Reynolds

I think they can mran the same thing, and I think the that can carry such an emphasis.

But why would it need emphasizing?

Yes. It does emphasize the years of uncertainty and upheaval. Right!

Avicenna

I mentioned, criticizing the time given to them by powers of the world.

This is the next sentence coming after right after that:

Fixing Libya is going to take more than a few raids as these five graphics explain.

So I think dropping that that is either a typo, if they really meant to emphasize the fact, or not. If it was not a typo, I conclude they ddidn't want to be critic, just give some information and leave to the reader to analyze it.

Jim Reynolds

09:22

Comma after raids?

Avicenna

@JimReynolds good point.

Damkerng T.

BTW, I didn't put my finger on another part of the sentence, 'to try and oust them'.

Avicenna

@JimReynolds They need a good editor. You can offer them if you like.

Damkerng T.

It was obviously written in haste to me.

Jim Reynolds

I think that can have this effect, given different semantics and contexts.

Damkerng T.

09:24

@JimReynolds I disagree if you say that we need a comma there.

Jim Reynolds

Dunno if I use semantics correctly.

Damkerng T.

I think you do.

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. But I think we need.

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. Do you read as meaning while?

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna We have to keep in mind that most commas are optional.

@JimReynolds Hmm... no.

Jim Reynolds

09:27

@DamkerngT. It's optional, but even this comma liberal wants one there.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Seeing the comma before your but makes me doubt about your liberality. :)

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. I've learnt we need to use a comma there, of course in standard English.

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna Hmm... from who, or what book?

Avicenna

In writting cources I had at university.

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna Did they tell you what style they use? Or which are mandatory and which are optional?

Avicenna

09:31

@DamkerngT. They told it's needed in such cases.

I don't remember the details. It was long time ago.

Damkerng T.

How did they told you? And what cases exactly did they tell you?

@Avicenna Hmm... that doesn't help much, I think.

> It was the Industrial Promotion Hall, but it is now the Atom Bomb Dome — it's half shattered as you can see but it still stands — ...

Do you think we need a comma before this as? @Avicenna, @JimReynolds

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. This as is different.

Damkerng T.

Different how?

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. No.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Same question, then. Different how? :-)

Avicenna

09:40

Oh, right! Why I thought that as as because. Yes, you're right. I was trying to find the pamphlet of my writting course.

Jim Reynolds

Non-restrictive?

Helps parse.

Damkerng T.

Nah! I think you wanted a comma there because that sentence is longer, and perhaps that's all.

Jim Reynolds

Noooooooo

I'm not a lengthist!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I suppose you can elaborate, then. :D

@JimReynolds No, you're lenghtist! :P

LOLROTF

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. haha. Neither!

@DamkerngT. I don't know. My native ear wants a pause before this elaboration.

Damkerng T.

09:43

@JimReynolds But, but, we don't transcribe our pauses as commas nowadays!

(I sure pause there, too.)

Avicenna

Lunch is calling me! Thank you both, @JimReynolds & @DamkerngT., a lot. See you!

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna Bon appetit! :D

Thanks for the chat, too! See you soon!

Jim Reynolds

Sometimes we do. And sometimes they help speed readers the way we want them to go.

Damkerng T.

They sure help, but I don't think they're mandatory, except for when it's grammatically called for.

Jim Reynolds

For some reason, I stop to wonder if the as means while if there's no comma. But I dunno why.

Not mandatory, I agree,

I said I wanted it.

Damkerng T.

09:46

I only said "I disagree if you say that we need a comma there." :)

(Because it sounded like Avicenna took your comment as that comma was mandatory.)

Wow! It's cold in here. Why? Because you left the air conditioner running for several hours. Silly me!

Today's weather: a chance of rain: 50%; a chance of meatballs: 0%

0

A: "What I'm doing is watching TV." — Why does it have to be the gerund-participle ('watching')?

'Watch TV' or 'TV watch' has not gained that much of currency like 'breakfast' or 'Baywatch' that we can easily term it a compound noun, but in all the examples except example no.(4), 'watch TV' is a noun. You cannot provide it a legitimacy by any other means. "Watch" as noun means 'looking'; so...

It's interesting to read about how native speakers internalize words and phrases.

For me, watch TV in What I do is watch TV is still a verb.

I have also weighed that option. But in the example sentences, they are more noun-like than, say, in a sentence like this one: To watch TV is a good pastime. I think they are not verbals but verb-like-noun compound with TV. — Barid Baran Acharya 13 hours ago

So, at least for this particular speaker, watch TV in those sentences is internalized as something noun-ish.

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. Like *TV watching"

TV watching is fun.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I suppose so.

Jim Reynolds

So is birdwatching.

Damkerng T.

It's a verb to me, still. What he did was watch TV.

What he did was (to) watch TV.

Jim Reynolds

Watching birds on TV? Woooooooow!!!

Damkerng T.

10:00

What he did was watch TV with his brother.

While this appears to sound wrong in English: What he did was watching TV.

Jim Reynolds

Watching TV has become a modern-day pasttime.

Damkerng T.

Do you think this sounds a little weird: What he did was watching TV?

Jim Reynolds

TV watching is bad for kids.

Damkerng T.

Or wrong?

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. Of course.

Damkerng T.

10:02

But Watching TV was what he did is fine!

Jim Reynolds

It's wrong

It's weird. But works.

Limited contexts.

Damkerng T.

nods -- That's why I think the ELU question is very interesting.

Jim Reynolds

Jumping was what he did. No, singing was what he did. No TV watching was what he did.

Thusly we may be led into strange but grammatical waters.

Damkerng T.

:D

Jim Reynolds

Thai-coup sounds like a martial art.

Damkerng T.

10:07

Thai coupons are cuter. :D

Jim Reynolds

:D

Damkerng T.

Hello, @StoneyB!

I just mentioned your name while discussing that vs. which in defining vs. non-defining clauses an hour ago!

StoneyB

Hi, @Dam, @Jim.

Damkerng T.

I can't remember in which answer that you wrote about this and nicely concluded that that and which are both fine in defining clauses.

StoneyB

That's got to be close to my oldest answer on ELL.

... Yep. Question #5: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/5/…

Damkerng T.

10:12

Oh, that's very quick! Thanks!

StoneyB

It is my oldest surviving answer, and the third-oldest surviving question on the site!

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna You'd find the answer linked to above useful (about that and which).

Jim Reynolds

helps blow off the dust

Damkerng T.

:D

StoneyB

<cough>

Takes me back. Jan 23 '13, the first day of private Beta.

Damkerng T.

10:17

Oh, has the T-shirt arrived yet?

StoneyB

Yes, it's very handsome. Sometimes on weekends I sit down to work on my tree drawer in my SE t-shirt drinking coffee from my SE mug and feel constantly popped.

Avicenna

Hello @StoneyB!

StoneyB

Hi, @Avi

Avicenna

Is there a nonrestrictive clause on this sentence?

a) After 4 years in college which was a tough time, she started a new life.

@StoneyB

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Neat! I guess I'll have them soon!

@Avicenna @StoneyB FYI, I wrote that sentence and Avicenna corrected it by adding a comma before which.

StoneyB

10:25

I'd say that has to be a nonrestrictive relative-- a restr would really need a definite article, the 4 years, and that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless she spent considerably more than 4 years in college. And yah, it wants a preceding comma too.

Damkerng T.

"Unless she spent considerably more than 4 years in college" is an interesting point.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT.: I'm curious, where did you learn your English? You've got an extraordinary feel for the language, 'correct' without being stilted.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB I don't know how to answer your question, because I don't feel like I studied or learned it.

Avicenna

@StoneyB Thank you. My learning mind never seems to stop making questions about English language.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Well, in a restrictive you'd have to be distinguishing those four years in college from some other years in college . . .

Damkerng T.

10:29

But I have to use it in my work.

StoneyB

@Avicenna Me, too!

@DamkerngT. Sort of like Joseph Conrad, then. He picked up his English in the merchant marine.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB nods -- Great point! I'll try to keep the difference in mind. Thank you very much!

Jim Reynolds

@StoneyB @Sto Are you implying, by logical extension, that if I had a wooden leg, I'd be a table?

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB LOL -- Perhaps! It's somewhat like on-the-job learning. :P

Avicenna

@StoneyB In that case I think it's better to use thoes rather than the--> After thoes 4 years in college which was a tough time, she started a new life.

StoneyB

10:34

@JimReynolds W e l l -- no. "Jim's wooden leg which was carved from mahogany" could be distinguished from other wooden legs which you swapped out from time to time :)

@Avicenna "Those" -- thoes looks sort of Dutch.

Avicenna

Oh I typed thoes!

I meant those.

I wonder how come I repeated my mistake!?

StoneyB

. . . and now I have to run away. I've had a cup of coffee and can be trusted on the highway, so I have to go to work. <sigh> Good local reference time, all!

Jim Reynolds

@Avicenna We use the assuming that our listener shares knowledge with us about which years we mention.

Bye!

Safe caffeinated travels

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB See you soon! And thanks once again!

@JimReynolds caffeinated! :D

Hey, it's a real word! (I thought you just made it up!)

Avicenna

@JimReynolds I got it. Thanks :-)

@StoneyB See you!:-)

Jim Reynolds

10:43

The shared knowledge might be some "general" four years that is a normal course of study.

Avicenna

The word we use for 30 in Persian is pronounced as the word see. I sometimes like to type 30 u!

Jim Reynolds

I 30!

Damkerng T.

Me 30 2! 555

Jim Reynolds

55555

Damkerng T.

(555 is Thai's laughter. :)

ucha

10:45

Are there something "having no cloud images" in english?

Avicenna

@JimReynolds the same here 4 years for M.A.

Jim Reynolds

5 in Thai sounds like ha

Avicenna

@JimReynolds :D

Damkerng T.

@ucha I'm not sure what you mean by "having no cloud images". Can you tell us more about your context?

Jim Reynolds

@Avicenna Four years! You must have committed a serious crime!

Avicenna

10:46

@DamkerngT. 55!

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna (^_^)

Jim Reynolds

Crimes against English?

ucha

the full sentence is
"Seasonally close images and and having no cloud images were considered to be chosen in order to decrease the athmospheric effects"

i think the sentence is full of mistake :)

Avicenna

@JimReynolds Murdering 1461 days is definitely a serious one!

Jim Reynolds

Can you start with We chose .....

Damkerng T.

10:48

@ucha I can't even make a good guess!

Avicenna

@JimReynolds that too.

ucha

@DamkerngT. thanks anyway

Damkerng T.

Is there any typo, BTW? I think it may make more sense if it's Seasonally cloud images and and having no cloud images ...

Jim Reynolds

@ucha We chose seasonally close images without clouds to decrease atmospheric effects.

ucha

Seasonally close images is right because i just "translated" it from my native

Damkerng T.

10:50

Like, Images with seasonal clouds and with no clouds were considered to be chosen to decrease the atmospheric effects. (Sounds like they're doing some photoshop job.)

Oh!

ucha

geography is the subject

Damkerng T.

(123 seconds passed. I still can't imagine "seasonally close images"!)

Jim Reynolds

Maybe seasonally close means like of an object in summer, when it's closer to the observation point? Just gurssing.

What does "seasonally close" mean?

We chose an icy rock because it looks like a rock in winter somewhere?

ucha

for example if we choose images of winter season, that will be seasonally close

or if we choose summer images, these images will be seasonally close

i hope i could expressed my problem

Damkerng T.

Is it about wetlands?

Jim Reynolds

10:54

Be careful, unless you are sure your readers will understand it.

ucha

yes

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not sure about wetlands in winter, but I can imagine "seasonally flooded" wetlands.

I guess Jim may be more familiar with winter wetlands.

ucha

the topic includes "wetlands" but coastal change is the main topic

im making a translation with my basic english in order to help somebody

Damkerng T.

In any case, I guess it should've been "seasonally closed", though I'm not absolutely sure.

Let's have another look at the original:

10 mins ago, by ucha

the full sentence is
"Seasonally close images and and having no cloud images were considered to be chosen in order to decrease the athmospheric effects"

ucha

thanks guys for your thoughts and allowing your time

Damkerng T.

10:58

Maybe I'd go with Images of seasonally closed wetlands with no clouds were considered to be chosen in order to decrease the atmospheric effects.

were considered to be chosen in order to could be shorten to were chosen to, BTW.

@ucha You're welcome!

(I don't know if we helped much, though. :)

Jim Reynolds

11:09

Sometimes we need to gracefully watch ELLs venture forth from these walls, knowing full well they may scrape a knee on an adjective.

It is their fortitude we admire!

Where is @Cow with a poem? :'(

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Spending some fortitude on some translational adventure? :P

ColleenV

@JimReynolds Good Morning! I need to have my first cup of coffee before I start making campaign promises, but maybe I could get an ELL chat room named after you :)

Jim Reynolds

11:43

@ColleenV :-)

Damkerng T.

12:52

Note to self: How would English speakers conceptualize/differentiate these introductory phrases/clauses: 'After several years of uncontrolled hunting, ...', 'After several years allowed uncontrolled hunting, ...', 'After several years that allowed uncontrolled hunting, ...'?

Jim Reynolds

There are multiple possible contexts.

Do you mean something like After .... (consequence to a species popolation)

Damkerng T.

Let's assume that it's unclear the writer means.

Jim Reynolds

#2 no

Years don't make decisions.

Damkerng T.

So, we can finish the rest of sentence with something like several species were gone.

@JimReynolds I think it's precisely of the same pattern as the CNN sentence or your wine sentence.

Jim Reynolds

Years cause wine to age.

They don't make policy decisions

1 is fine.

An external agent is implied. Someone allowed uncontrolled hunting, or failed to limit it.

Damkerng T.

13:03

> After years of uncertainty allowed Megatron to gain control over the planet Cybertron, the Primes begun carrying out retaliation.

Jim Reynolds

Sure

Damkerng T.

> After several years allowed uncontrolled hunting, the Forest Preservation Agency issued a new policy.

Jim Reynolds

Years cannot decide to allow.

Damkerng T.

What do you think about the last two examples?

Jim Reynolds

Megatron: my response was ok

I replied under each of the two.

Damkerng T.

13:07

What makes the difference? I can't see the difference.

Would it be more acceptable if I added something like of indecision, so the last example becomes After several years of indecision allowed uncontrolled hunting, the Forest Preservation Agency issued a new policy.

Jim Reynolds

In the context, to control or decide against controlling requires a decisionmaking agent.

Yes!

Damkerng T.

In the Megatron sentence-- Huh?!

Let me confirm this:

Jim Reynolds

I'll edit to clarify

Damkerng T.

> (a) After several years allowed uncontrolled hunting, the Forest Preservation Agency issued a new policy. -- Not okay?

> (b) After several years of indecision allowed uncontrolled hunting, the Forest Preservation Agency issued a new policy. -- Okay?

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. (a) Not ok

@DamkerngT. b) ok

Damkerng T.

13:11

Hah!

This is totally unexpected!

Jim Reynolds

In (b), one or more agents is assumed to have been indecisive.

Anonymous

I agree with Jim Reynolds. You can't substitute years for years of indecision because it would be strange in terms of meaning.

Jim Reynolds

Agents presumeably identified externally to the sentence.

Damkerng T.

This is really interesting!

:D

Jim Reynolds

Which depends on logic. Which might involve cultural issues.

Anonymous

13:14

The thing that struck me as odd about the sentence was perfect have in the main clause.

Anonymous

> After years of uncertainty and upheaval allowed ISIS militants to gain a foothold in the country, the U.S. has begun carrying out airstrikes to try and oust them.

Anonymous

I don't know. Does it seem a little bit off to anyone else?

Damkerng T.

I wanted that before allowed, but I might be wrong about this sentence.

Jim Reynolds

The have was before allowed?

Damkerng T.

Hi, @VarunKN! Welcome to the room!

Jim Reynolds

13:16

Years of uncertainty having caused something can make sense to me.

Varun KN

Thank You, @DamkerngT.

Jim Reynolds

Years allowing upheavel does not.

Man_From_India

@snailplane How popular is this expression: My money's on yes.?

Jim Reynolds

Years allowing the paint to be worn and cracked. Is ok.

2

Because we can logically summon an agent: weather, etc.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I think I start to get the idea. Still a little vague, though.

Jim Reynolds

13:20

The years allowed the weather to wear the paint.

@DamkerngT. Vagueness is a virus in an electronic brain.

You need a mechanic, friend.

Damkerng T.

True, that! :D

Jim Reynolds

The years have been kind to him.

Damkerng T.

He and the years went out on a date. :P

Jim Reynolds

:D

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Popular enough that I think it makes perfect sense.

(And probably have heard similar sentences several times.)

Jim Reynolds

13:26

@Man_From_India It is something we would say.

But "how popular" is a vague question.

In particular with yes?

Damkerng T.

Or someone, or something.

Man_From_India

Ahhh it must be colloquial, I guess.

@JimReynolds hmmm right, why yes. It was as DT said my money's on someone/something. The replacement of yes is a bit strange.

Jim Reynolds

Yes is ok there.

Will it rain tomorrow? My money's on yes.

Man_From_India

I have just found that expression on wordreference forum.

@JimReynolds I see, Thanks. With context and full sentence it does make sense.

Jim Reynolds

Americans would likely just say I just found it .....

(Not have just found)

Damkerng T.

13:38

0

Q: What's correct between "To turn it on is forbidden" and "Turning it on is forbidden"?

I always have troubles when I have to use infinite forms of verbs. In particular like in this example, where a verb describes something more in the next sentence.

grammar

Choosing alternatives is one of the most popular kinds of questions on ELL!

This one is about -ing vs. infinitive.

> (a) To walk is healthy.

> (b) Walking is healthy.

(a) is a bit odd, eh?

Damkerng T.

13:59

4

Q: 'I wouldn't vote for Clinton if you paid me': what does this mean?

My understanding was that a sentence of the form: I won't do X if Y happens means something along the lines of if Y happens I will not do X Nigel Farage stated in a speech 'I wouldn't vote for Clinton if you paid me'. To my mind, this seems to be saying 'If you pay me, I will not vot...

meaning

Haha! What an ambiguous sentence!

> I wouldn't vote for Clinton if you paid me.

But what if I said,

> I'm going to vote for Clinton, but if you're interested... I wouldn't vote for Clinton if you paid me

The final (hypothetical) result is the same, but the initial conditions are different.

> Stevie is ready to let Trevor move in with her and find a regular job, until Trevor spots the picture of Ivan with Reynolds, and accuses Stevie of plotting against him with Ivan. Stevie tells him the photo is of Reynolds and none other than Trevor himself.

> (ell.stackexchange.com/questions/101729/…)

Stevie tells him the photo is of Reynolds and none other than Trevor himself -- I think this sentence is strange.

"is of Reynolds and none other than Trevor himself" -- What?!?

(I can't remember the movie now. It was a long time ago. A very noir one, I think.

Anonymous

14:29

@Man_From_India My money's on X is a fairly common expression.

Anonymous

With yes, it's probably a little more infrequent (just because it appears with a variety of complements), but there's nothing wrong with it IMO.

Jim Reynolds

@Dam It means I don't want to do it. I wouldn't even do it if you offered me money to do it.

Anonymous

You typed It in the middle of Damkerng's name! Damkerng has been tmesized!

Jim Reynolds

@Dam I hate white shoes. I wouldn't wear a pair for a million dollars.*

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I think that's probably the normal way to use that expression, but I don't think the language doesn't allow us to use it the other way around.

> I don't want to do it. I wouldn't even do it if you offered me money to do it.

> I want to do it, but yeah, I wouldn't do it if you offered me some money.

Jim Reynolds

14:33

@DamkerngT. Huh?

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Sorry, your sentence is not the same as the OP's. It's too specific.

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. ok. I actually read the question.

Damkerng T.

The original construction was "I wouldn't do it if you paid me."

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. Right. I want to, but won't if you pay me, needs different language.

I would vote for @snailplane if she arranged it so all my posts become boxed in shiny gold metallic borders. And were annotated SENIOR GENIUS CONTRIBUTION.

Cardinal

Why there is no usage tip for the tag "nounclause" ?

Also, why there is no "noun-phrase" tag?

Jim Reynolds

14:49

@DamkerngT. Dam, this photo is of Queen Elizabeth and none other than yourself.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds What would it mean?

Jim Reynolds

It's a photo of the two of you. A photo of HM may not be surprising, but for you to see yourself in it might be incredible.

The assertion that it is none other than you means, it really is you. It's not another.

Damkerng T.

But it doesn't sound like the one after "none other than" was in the photo!

"is of Reynolds and none other than Trevor himself"

This may make sense if Travor was in the photo.

Jim Reynolds

No other person but Trevor. It's Trevor and none other than he.

Damkerng T.

"until Trevor spots the picture of Ivan with Reynolds, and accuses Stevie of plotting against him with Ivan. Stevie tells him the photo is of Reynolds and none other than Trevor himself."

Jim Reynolds

14:53

Then it was apparently Ivan.

But actually Trevor.

Cardinal

Why do you want to suggest that? I mean trying hard is a good thing. Would you tell us more about the context and situation? — Cardinal 49 secs ago

Jim Reynolds

Or so she says.

Damkerng T.

Yes. The only way that this could make sense is Ivan and Travor were the same person, but she didn't know Ivan!

Jim Reynolds

Stevie informs him that it is in fact not Ivan in the photo, but Trevor himself.

Damkerng T.

Oh! They have that in the synopsis?

Jim Reynolds

14:56

No. Jimopsis.

Damkerng T.

How could I argue with that?!

You were in the photo, even!

Jim Reynolds

:D

Cardinal

0

Q: What does "due to" mean in the sentence?

A sentence from a news webpage (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-quake-toll-idUSKCN1110FV): A day of national mourning was announced, with flags due to fly at half mast around the country for the dead, who include a number of foreigners. What does "due to" mean in this sentence?

meaning

I want to answer questions, but something holding me back :D

Jim Reynolds

@Cardinal Some people work too hard for their own good. We may wish to give such advice.

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