Language Overflow

CowperKettle

04:15

16

Q: Omission of definite article with musical instruments

What is the rule for omitting/including the definite article in the following sentences: I used to play piano. I used to play the piano. I would pick the first sentence, but I've heard people say the second sentence even when they are not referring to a specific piano. Which one is correct?

This is quite interesting.

This question prompted me to find it:

1

Q: How does the specificity of a sentence change?

Source Joe plays the piano really well. Joe plays piano really well. The former means Joe can play any piano while the latter one means Joe can play only this piano? Source Paris is the capital of France. The capital, London, on the River Thames, is home of Parliament and the...

definite-article generic-noun-phrases

My answer talks about a natural English construction; I'm not concerned with how widespread such usage may or may not be. — AlanCarmack 35 secs ago

Can we really say "London is capital of Great Britain"?

Without "the"?

Sawasdee khrap, by the way!

CowperKettle

06:23

@TIPS - this is a hilt of a dagger, dated about 1700-1750, of Persian provenance.

A person asked in a translation community what language this could be

There's a sign made in some hard-to-identify language.

CowperKettle

07:36

I can share some potassium with you again, @snailplane. I re-checked the levels, and the new test is again above the upper limit. And I've got tons of cortisol to share too, since it's twice the maximum level. O_O

TIPS

08:16

@CowperKettle It's in Arabic script.

Of course, as I'm weak in reading those (might be something that's come with the new era or what), it might be either Persian or Arabic.

Though I'm more inclined to go with the latter, for two reasons.

One, there are four letters that exist in Persian but not in Arabic. I can't spot those.

And two, the vases, the mosques, pretty much everything from that era had an Islamic tint to it, that worked like a signature to distinguish them from East Asian art.

Shweta Sekuri

09:05

Hello everyone....

TIPS

Hullo @Shweta! Welcome to LO!

Shweta Sekuri

I am new to this site ...

Hi @TIPS

TIPS

How're you doing?

Shweta Sekuri

Good... and how about you?

TIPS

Not so good.

Because of Brexit.

Arau must feel worse.

Shweta Sekuri

09:09

I apologize for using wrong sentences.... Still learning :)

TIPS

BRB

Shweta Sekuri

please correct me if I am using wrongly...

TIPS

Back

Shweta Sekuri

cool

TIPS

@ShwetaSekuri You didn't say anything wrongly.

@ShwetaSekuri This sentence needs a fix though. The verb use needs an object.

Shweta Sekuri

09:14

yeah... not yet but may be soon...

TIPS

We call those verbs "transitive", and I'm pretty sure your language has them too.

I'd say something like

> Please correct me if I'm using my words wrongly.

Or better yet, I'd use something else:

Shweta Sekuri

Okay....

TIPS

> Please correct any grammatical mistakes that I make.

Shweta Sekuri

thank you...

I glad to be here..

TIPS

I am glad

Shweta Sekuri

09:18

yeah... sorry.

TIPS

No problem!

Everyone makes mistakes.

Shweta Sekuri

:)

TIPS

From now on, whenever you say something ungrammatical, I mark it with a "*", and correct it.

Shweta Sekuri

That's sounds good. Thank you :)

Well, I am student studying for Bachelor of Technology, in electronics and communication stream.

TIPS

I am a student studying.

Shweta Sekuri

09:23

I am interested in Hardware Technology and speaking English probably like you @TIPS

TIPS

Too young to select a major

Shweta Sekuri

So exactly what I thought for using 'a' there...

TIPS

Using 'a' where?

Shweta Sekuri

I am a student.

so here users will post 'word of the day'.

TIPS

Aha

Well, I guess you know the basic differences they tell between 'a' and 'the'?

Shweta Sekuri

09:29

Actually, I don't know where we use 'a' and 'the'

'the' is used for the special words like names I guess.

TIPS

"a" and "the" are called articles.

Shweta Sekuri

what about 'an'?

TIPS

If your native language doesn't have them, you might run into trouble getting a hang of them in English.

@ShwetaSekuri It gets treated the same way as "a".

They give a guideline, which of course isn't exhaustive or useful in exceptional cases, and it sometimes gets you in trouble, but still, it's a very good head start.

Shweta Sekuri

yeah, before the vowels we use 'an'

TIPS

"a" is for things you don't know of, and "the" is for things we do know.

@ShwetaSekuri Yes, that too. And it's correct.

Now, how to define "knowing"?

Shweta Sekuri

09:32

okay...

TIPS

The best way is to read the sentence or other sentences, if given.

Imagine that the text you're reading as a story.

Shweta Sekuri

OK

TIPS

If the object, animal or the person are part of the story, that is, something happens to them, you use "the".

Otherwise, use "a/an".

Shweta Sekuri

for example?

TIPS

So, you're talking about "an elephant" if it was just walking there.

But

You're talking about "the elephants" when you meet them in the zoo.

Because they're part of your story.

They do something, or something is done to them.

You might as well write a paragraph like

Shweta Sekuri

09:35

Okay.

TIPS

> I saw a cat running on the street. The cat was chasing a mouse.

Generally, as another, more inaccurate guideline, they tell you that the first mentions of the characters in a story is accompanied by "a".

Shweta Sekuri

Hmm..

TIPS

You can also grab an English textbook and read about the articles in a chapter.

There are also good online pages. Let me find something that's not so technical.

This is good.

Let me know if it has any parts you don't get the meaning of.

Shweta Sekuri

sure...

but

The moment you sent the link, I thought of saying you 'I am seeing the link'

Is it correct?

TIPS

It isn't a wrong sentence, but it isn't something a fluent speaker would say either.

If the problem is the tense, it's fine, but the meaning is laggy.

Shweta Sekuri

09:45

Ok, so what I should use instead?

Sina

I lost the bet!

TIPS

@Sina Should we serially downvote you now?

@ShwetaSekuri Typically something with "let".

Sina

You r totally welcome!

:-)

TIPS

> Let me take a look

> Let me see that link

> Time to get some reading done!

Not in the toilet, mind you

Shweta Sekuri

@TIPS OK...

Sina

09:49

With see we don't use continuous tense, i.e. when we mean to notice using our eyes

Shweta Sekuri

Okay.

Sina

So I see the link not I am seeing the link. And welcome @ShwetaSekuri

Shweta Sekuri

OK, Time to study the link.... See you all soon.

TIPS

See ya

Shweta Sekuri

:)

TIPS

09:52

@Sina You can always dynamicize these verbs. That assumption is false.

How would you explain the grammaticality of "I am having a headache"?

in The Periodic Table, 3 mins ago, by TIPS

Colorblind brothers overwhelmed by seeing color for the first time

How awesome.

How beautiful.

CC @Dam

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Oh, no!

Anonymous

I hope you can get a good amount of antibanana and antispinach in your diet.

Sina

@TIPS it's all correct. Here have means experience.

TIPS

@Cowp should try becoming Popeye for a change.

@Sina What about wanting something?

Anonymous

Antipopeye.

TIPS

10:06

@snailplane While his levels are high, he would become the good guy.

Anonymous

Antibluto?

Sina

@TIPS want to check all the verbs you know?

TIPS

There was some "anti-vitamin" in a Pink Panther episode.

He should try it.

Sina

Hi@snailplane!

Anonymous

Hi there :-)

TIPS

10:07

@Sina My point is, you can use continuous with those stative verbs. The you-cant is another ELL hoax.

@snailplane Hi here

When you get caught doing something embarrassing

Sina

@CowperKettle I have extra Calcium :( for about a year. And due to it rapid heart beat!

@TIPS how can you defend ur claim!

TIPS

@Sina How can you defend yours? Prescriptivist rules aren't acceptable.

Anonymous

@TIPS But then they're no longer stative, of course.

Anonymous

So the so-called "stative verbs" are really verbs which are usually used statively.

Sina

English is not my first language. So I cannot decide whether a rule is prescriptive, trying to change the natural way people use it, or descriptive!

Anonymous

10:11

But each has its own restrictions on the progressive, really.

TIPS

@snailplane Yes, but there is that usage.

Anonymous

And casting a stative verb in the progressive is often inappropriate.

Anonymous

So we can't throw the rule out entirely, either. We need a more nuanced description of when it's appropriate and when it's not.

Anonymous

And that's really difficult to do.

TIPS

Yay

Languages and their quirks et al.

Shweta Sekuri

10:27

I apologize for asking this silly doubt, but its really important for me...

TIPS

Sure, do ask

Shweta Sekuri

Actually soon I am applying for an exam so the questions criteria is 'There shall be a single multiple choice objective type paper'

I have always come across with multiple choice question but what is single multiple choice?

TIPS

"Objective type paper"?

@ShwetaSekuri No, it's a single paper.

Single modifies paper.

Shweta Sekuri

Ah....

I thought it might be 'fill in the blanks' type which I don't like at all.

I had a look at your profile just now.

@TIPS

TIPS

Hey, no peeking!

Just kidding.

Shweta Sekuri

10:33

why do you like silicon?

TIPS

I don't like it, as in, not like like it.

But silicon is just an element, like others.

Shweta Sekuri

then?

TIPS

What do you mean then?

It's just a picture of a chemical.

Shweta Sekuri

yeah.. but you have wrote 'I'll be a random chemical from now on'

so I thought you like it.

TIPS

I like chemicals, and chemistry.

Not silicon in particular.

Actually, this makes me wonder.

Shweta Sekuri

10:37

Okay...

TIPS

I should pick a favorite element.

What's your favorite element @Snail, other than the element of surprise, fear etc.?

Shweta Sekuri

BBL...

TIPS

Lates

Anonymous

Dysprosium.

TIPS

Noice

Anonymous

10:41

🐳

Anonymous

🐢 🐳 🐌 🐢

TIPS

The turtles are escorting the micro-whale and the snail.

CowperKettle

11:16

@Sina That's too bad! I hope you've found the cause!

Damkerng T.

11:37

@TIPS :D

TIPS

\o @Dam

Damkerng T.

o/

@snailplane Element 66

@CowperKettle Zdoroka

Hope it will get better when you get another test next time.

Everyone don't forget to take care of yourself well.

TIPS

Just because you said, I will.

Fun programming

Damkerng T.

Yay!

TIPS

Makes me throw up.

Witty, dammit!

Damkerng T.

11:42

@TIPS It's part of our big plan. We sent catbots to help humans learn programming in our first phase. :P

@TIPS That's awesome!

I wish I could read the full story.

BTW, welcome to the room! @ShwetaSekuri

TIPS

@DamkerngT. Still makes me throw up. Imagining kid cartoons with puppies as programmers

Damkerng T.

@TIPS Oh, they leave!

TIPS

Yeah, pretty much every busy chatroom in SE is talking about Brexit.

Except Physics and Math, I didn't check those.

Even Tavern on the meta and Shadow's Den are talking about Brexit.

Damkerng T.

Barely 52%!

This is far from unanimous, I guess.

Hmm... David Cameron's speech hasn't been uploaded to YouTube yet.

> It was not a decision that was taken lightly, not least because so many things were said by so many different organisations about the significance of this decision.
So there can be no doubt about the result.

Good speech.

("not least because" is a good phrase, too)

> I fought this campaign in the only way I know how, which is to say directly and passionately what I think and feel - head, heart and soul.

This part is nice, too.

For some reason, I hear only a British accent when I read his speech.

It's somewhat different from most speeches I've seen on C-SPAN.

(Apart from when the speechmaker comes from another country, I mean.)

Shweta Sekuri

12:05

@DamkerngT. Thank you

Damkerng T.

Hope you'll find this room a nice place. :D

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. Zdorovo! Sawasdee khrap!

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Oh, sorry! I misremembered the word! Zdorovo!

Shweta Sekuri

Yeah... :-)

CowperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

12:07

(and sawasdee khrap!)

Sina

12:30

@CowperKettle not yet!

I hope you can lower your Potassium soon and bring it back to normal.

:-)

StoneyB

@Araucaria Condolences.

CowperKettle

13:26

@Sina Too bad! You should consult with an endocrinologist..

@Araucaria Take it with the stiff upper lip, as a Brit

Or with some quaint swear expression, as a linguist

@Sina I've now idea why it is a bit higher than necessary. With cortisol at 200%, it should be at the lowest margin.

Because they counteract each other.

So I'll go to my endo in a couple of weeks' time..

Shweta Sekuri

14:03

Hello everyone

Wassup

CowperKettle

Nothing much..

@Sina You might check you parathyroid hormones: emedicine.medscape.com/article/240681-workup

Oh, sorry, I forgot to say hello, Swheta!

I'm lurking

Shweta Sekuri

Hmmm...

Araucaria

15:05

@StoneyB Thanks, StoneyB.

@CowperKettle I'm going to take it like a Scot - with a leave the UK vote.

@CowperKettle I've been taking it like a linguist a lot today ....

CowperKettle

@Araucaria LOL

Araucaria

@TIPS Where's that from? I can't find the web page ...

@CowperKettle I can't laugh today ...

CowperKettle

@Araucaria Sorry.

The problem is incomparable with Russia's problem. The UK won't turn into an authoritarian state.

Araucaria

@CowperKettle It's ok. It's good for you guys to laugh! It's just that normally I'd have given you a smiley or something. But I can't do smileys today.

@CowperKettle Are you sure? Have you seen the numpties lining up to take over the country?

CowperKettle

Word of the day: nupmty

@Araucaria No. I'm not savvy in UK politics..

Shweta Sekuri

15:22

@CowperKettle nice word..

CowperKettle

Russian Govt. plans to spend 100 million pounds on teleportation

Shweta Sekuri

I want to know on what basis the word of the day is decided?

CowperKettle

Oh, it's just a random thing.

Shweta Sekuri

Lol

OK....

CowperKettle

A desultory thing

Any desultory moggie can do this

Shweta Sekuri

15:28

I thought there is a process behind it

CowperKettle

@Araucaria Generally, I'm very optimistic about the UK. It has come through worse things.

Man_From_India

@Araucaria are you there?

Araucaria

15:47

@Man_From_India Very briefly ...

Man_From_India

Actually I am trying to write an answer to that a list of who question. @Araucaria

But I find it really difficult. Let me write it up, and once finised please read it up.

I will share the link here.

> All you have to do is to sit down and write a list of who is going to attend the wedding.

For example this one -

I think this a fused relative construction, and it's under "free choice" situation.

CowperKettle

Greeble

A greeble or nurnie is a fine detailing added to the surface of a larger object that makes it appear more complex, and therefore more visually interesting. It usually gives the audience an impression of increased scale. The detail can be made from simple geometric primitives (such as cylinders, cubes, and rectangles), or more complex shapes, such as pieces of machinery (cables, tanks, sprockets). Greebles are often present on models or drawings of fictional spacecraft or architectural constructs in science fiction and are used in the movie industry (special effects). == Etymology == The earliest...

Two new words

Damkerng T.

16:20

Nice!

0

Q: What does "contempt" mean?

I have already researched this word in an online dictionary and in my native language (Dutch), though I'm not sure if I fully understand it yet. Take following examples: A time of contempt is approaching. . Am I to gain X, while paying with contempt for myself? Would a suitable synonym be...

meaning-in-context word-choice

Hmm...

> Am I to gain X, while paying with contempt for myself?

Probably ungrammatical.

Hmm... but then again, pay can be used intransitively as well.

Sina

@CowperKettle it's strange! I hope it's not serious!:-)

@CowperKettle My doctor checked it. Every thing was normal except that Calcium part! I've gotten used to it. Never mind:-)

CowperKettle

@Sina That's odd! I hope you'll tackle it!

@Sina Thanks! (0:

Man_From_India

@Araucaria @snailplane @DamkerngT. I am not very sure about the analysis I made in this answer.

0

A: relative pronoun after preposition

ANSWER TO OP - 1. a list of the players who have been invited. 2. a list of who have been invited. OP asked whether sentence #1 can be reduced to sentence #2. I would say, it depends on context. That who-clause can either be an embedded open interrogative clause or a fused relative c...

Please read it, and correct me if I'm wrong.

CowperKettle

There's a great poem about illness called "Cancer's a Funny Thing" by the geneticist JBS Haldane

> I wish I had the voice of Homer
To sing of rectal carcinoma,
Which kills a lot more chaps, in fact,
Than were bumped off when Troy was sacked.

Yet, thanks to modern surgeon’s skills,
It can be killed before it kills
Upon a scientific basis
In nineteen out of twenty cases.

2

> Shortly before his death from cancer, Haldane wrote a comic poem while in the hospital, mocking his own incurable disease. It was read by his friends, who appreciated the consistent irreverence with which Haldane had lived his life. The poem first appeared in print in the 21 February 1964 issue of the New Statesman

Man_From_India

One counter comment, ah that's real fast :-)

In the interrogative reading of your example, the meaning would be "On page 40, you will find a list of the answer the question ''Who will you have to write to for change of address_"'. That makes no sense at all. — BillJ 4 mins ago

I thought this sentence does make sense -

> On page 40, you will find a list of who you have to write for change of address.

Damkerng T.

16:36

It's a bit hard to come up with a real context for it, I think.

Man_From_India

But is that sentence really unclear?

I mean doesn't it make any sense?

Damkerng T.

Why would someone else know better than me (who I have to tell) and put the names in something thicker than 40 pages long? I think that's why it sounds odd.

Man_From_India

Take it some other way.

Like

You asked a busy authority about who to write for the change of address. And he answers I am very busy and read that book.

On page 40, you will find it

Damkerng T.

Could be. But it's difficult for me because it's unrealistic.

I can change my address (not in an official document, I mean) without having to inform the authority.

Man_From_India

What about this? You will find a list of people who you have to write for change of address?

@DamkerngT. That's true. But it's an imaginary situation :-)

Damkerng T.

16:40

Probably the same for me. I can't say what BillJ will think.

Man_From_India

What about this? there you will find a list of students who will have to write their exams again?

Damkerng T.

BTW, I think The list you prepared of who committed the crime under which circumstances sounds odd because of The list you prepared of, not because of who committed ...

Man_From_India

And there you will find a list of who will have to write their exams again?

Damkerng T.

..., you will find the list of students who passed the exam might be sufficient as an example.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Remove "you prepared" then :-)

Damkerng T.

16:44

@Man_From_India It could be grammatical!

(Actually, it sounds rather okay for me without you prepared.)

Man_From_India

Now I'm further unsure about my total answer :(

Catija

Or, add "where is"... Where is the list you prepared of who committed the crime under which circumstances? The problem is that it doesn't really read like a full sentence.

Man_From_India

Let it be there, the more comment it gets the more I will learn.

Damkerng T.

I haven't checked CGEL yet, but the student CGEL says that we can use who as a fused head in very limited constructions. (Which implies that it's possible, but it's unclear when it's possible.)

Catija

Or if you want to have a statement, "here is"...

Man_From_India

16:47

@DamkerngT. It says in free choice situation.

I can't properly remember the terminology.

Oh here

I think this must be an open interrogative content clause and not a fused relative construction, because outside of free choice constructions (which this doesn't seem to be) and a few fossilized examples from when it was grammatical, who doesn't work in fused relatives, only whoever does. — snailplane 2 days ago

Damkerng T.

@Catija Man_From_India quoted a full sentence. I just thought that you prepared sounds a bit awkward. The full sentence is: The list you prepared of who committed the crime under which circumstances is really awesome.

Man_From_India

so he question is if this is okay? The list of who committed the crime under which circumstances is really awesome.

Catija

@DamkerngT. Ah. That sounds fine to me as well.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

I thought it might be grammatical but awkward. Now I have to recategorize it. :-) Thanks!

Catija

@Man_From_India Sure. Personally, If you're trying to compliment someone, including "you prepared" helps make it a more direct compliment. Without "you prepared", it's not recognizing the work of the person who created it. If you're not talking to the person directly, you could use this version (or say "The list John prepared")...

Damkerng T.

16:53

I wonder if @snailplane meant something like this (an example in the student CGEL) by "free choice constructions": I'll invite who I want.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. I think so.

Damkerng T.

FWIW, my natural choice of word order would be something like: The list of who committed the crime under which circumstances you prepared is really awesome.

(But, yes, it could be more ambiguous.)

Catija

If you add "that" or "which" it will be less ambiguous. "The list of who committed the crime under which circumstances that you prepared is really awesome."

Damkerng T.

nods

theguardian.com/culture/2016/jun/24/…

Man_From_India

Now after reading that sentence over and over again I wonder whether this can be brought under "free choice construction".

Damkerng T.

16:59

Hah! Even the first lady!

(Hmm... should I have capitalized the First Lady?)

@Man_From_India I'm thinking so, actually.

It's probably quite reasonable to think of anything that goes into a list as free choice.

Man_From_India

Now I wonder if after a list of the use of who can mostly be free choice.

Either that or an open interrogative.

I can't think of any sentence where there is a fused relative clause and that is not a free choice construction.

Damkerng T.

He put whatever it was into his pocket.

TIPS

17:14

in The Periodic Table, 51 secs ago, by TIPS

The UK right now

@Araucaria Imgur.

CowperKettle

Rubbing the salt in

TIPS

Funny how 99% of the internet is against Brexit. Where are the 52% now?

CowperKettle

They have no Internet addiction

Man_From_India

17:45

Going through the comments under my answer I now really doubt whether a list of can really take an interrogative clause. If it can't I wrote a wrong answer. I am really at a loss :(

Damkerng T.

18:53

"when others succeed more than you do" is a possible alternatve. — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

I guess you would agree, @Catija.

Catija

Yes. Or "when others have more success than you [do]". But I still think that "success" is a really... non-specific word. But that may not be a bad thing in this. Sina's recommendation of "outdo" is an interesting option I hadn't thought of.

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the confirmation!

Outdo makes me think of competitions, while the OP example doesn't give me the same feeling.

Catija

Sure. Anytime. I may not be here but I'm usually on SE... particularly during the "day" for me.

Well, "jealous" can imply that someone's already turned it into a competition... as does "succeed when you do not", which is what might be what the OP is going for... it's really unclear, though. I always hope that the OP will give some insight into what they're trying to say in addition to the sentence they've written.

Damkerng T.

nods

quetchalcoatle

19:39

Hello people. One day I posted a question about conditionals and was searching around. Some people (like tchrist) said that the modality does not have to match and some of them said it should, like would with past tense and will with present tense, so who's correct?

Catija

Posted a question on the main site or in here?

quetchalcoatle

On the main site, asking about subjunctive mood of would.

Catija

Can you link to the question?

quetchalcoatle

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/94239/… Here it is! And all you have to do is to read only Stoney B's answer.

You would have to be here for the games and any practices that you schedule, they both take place on Tuesday and Thursday. This was the sentence in question. This conditional just doesn't sound hypothetical to me, yet it's using would instead of will.

Catija

If Stoney said it, it's probably good info. I'm not an educator, so I only know what I know by being a native speaker... if you asked me to define modality or conditionals, I wouldn't be able to do it without learning what it is, first.

I will say that "will" would make perfect sense in that sentence... without additional context like "If you accept your position on the team, you would...." I'm not sure if "would" works.

quetchalcoatle

19:50

I wasn't so sure either. When you use would, the situation just becomes... unrealistic and improbable. Right?

Catija

But, reading the rest of the answer, I think that's exactly what Stoney's saying... the full context of the sentence is: "Congratulations! You have made the team! We hope you will have time to participate: you would have to be here for the games and any practices..."

Admittedly, the rest of the sentence doesn't make much sense to me. (after the elipsis)

quetchalcoatle

So the sentence goes like "you would have to be here for the games and any practices that you schedule, if you had the time to participate." It is when I turn "we hope you will have time to participate" into a conditional.

And it sounds as if I am unable to go. And I don't think coach thinks it is impossible for me to come to the practice when he is sending an email telling me to come.

Catija

No, the condition is "whether you join the team or not", not "whether you can come to practice or not"... they are related but the part that's undecided is whether you join the team. Being offered a position on the team doesn't require that you accept it.

quetchalcoatle

Oh, I get it. But why would he use "would"? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_sentence According to this link, when you use would, it becomes counterfactual. Doesn't the coach have to use predictive when the situation is more realistic and probable?

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