Language Overflow

Anonymous

00:35

@DamkerngT. Yes! For example: understand, overcome

CowperKettle

01:11

0

Q: Meaning and usage of "vitrine" in the US

I would like to know if, in the US, people say vitrine/vitrines like window shopping. In France usually they say "vitrine" as window shopping. And English has some mix of French words too. So, I would like to know.

In Russian, the glass window case in front of goods is also "vitrina"

Damkerng T.

03:34

I think there are some clear side-effects of hiring more native speakers of English (even though I wouldn't consider some of them native speakers, e.g., some teachers are from the Philippines, South Asia, and other neighbor countries in the same region, etc.) to teach English classes in Thailand.

I'm not sure how widespread the effects are; it's hard to judge. I'm not sure who studied English in a standard school and who studied English in an international school either. But one obvious effect I can notice is the change in our pronunciation of English words in Thai speech.

For example, let's focus on tones. Though English is more about stressing, and tones just generally follow stresses, tones impact Thai speakers more, because Thai is a tonal language.

BTW, hi! @V.V.

V.V.

Hi,Dam! Nice to see you.

Damkerng T.

A typical pronunciation of the name "Angry Bird" by native speakers of English would be like this (CAP = "high" tone, lowercase = "low" tone): ANGry BIRd.

A decade ago, most Thai would pronounce the name (in Thai speech) like this: anGRY BIRD.

It seems to me that nowadays, this is the norm for young Thai people: ANGry BIRD.

(Note the subtle differences)

In other words, most pronunciations seem to shift toward those of native speakers, but the results are still somewhat different, and not necessarily better or closer to native speakers' pronunciations than a decade ago.

Damkerng T.

03:56

0

Q: Which order should I teach grammar topics in?

Which is the latest, recommendable order of grammar topics, written by specialists, to teach English at a universitary level in Mexico? I am not referring to receiving advice about certain textbooks, on the contrary, I want a tool to analyze a new one in which certain grammar points have been el...

grammar teaching

This could be very interesting.

I know that the opinions are divided, whether or not we should learn grammar to learn a second language.

CowperKettle

I think all basic textbooks contain the approximate order.

Forms of verbs, irregular verbs, tenses.

Damkerng T.

nods -- It's fair to assume that for teachers and learners and parents who believe in teaching a second language based on grammar, they'd naturally look for the best or the most effective order.

CowperKettle

Good morning, Dam!

Damkerng T.

Good morning!

CowperKettle

How do I switch off the mobile setting in the chat?

Damkerng T.

03:59

Oh, what's the current mode you're in?

CowperKettle

Yep, thanks to Freddy's mention of it.

Now I don't know how to get out of it.

Found it!

"Full site"

Damkerng T.

I'm in the mobile mode. There is a dropdown button -- Yay!

CowperKettle

It was not very intuitive.

Damkerng T.

nods

CowperKettle

I looked for "standard chat mode" or something

> I was an English teacher and Coordinator for 23 years at a High School in Mexico City. I have been teaching English for 14 years at a University.

Damkerng T.

04:01

The mobile mode works okay on my iPad. (I've got to fight with the soft keyboard when I want to type anything, though.)

CowperKettle

I would expect her to tell us the order of teaching.

Damkerng T.

I guess so!

Maybe she(?) wants us to point her to some papers. I don't know.

CowperKettle

nods

A law is being passed in Russia according to which any person could be banned from leaving the country for 5 years, on the grounds of a simple warning, given by a paper or in verbal form by the law enforcement system.

Damkerng T.

Oh! And on what grounds those warnings would be?

CowperKettle

A couple of weeks back, Putin has instituted The National Guard to suppress mass protests.

Damkerng T.

04:09

I imagine that it should be on some serious grounds.

@CowperKettle Ahh

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. "We have noticed that you are posting messages on social networks that lead us to believe that you sympathise with the actions of the Ukrainian military/Georgian state/Islamic terrorists/Radical Russian opposition figures. This is an official warning". Bingo! You are locked in Russia for 5 years.

Hundreds of thousands of people working in the police, in other official structures, are already locked in Russia.

By laws passed in the recent years.

Damkerng T.

nods

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. My mother yesterday was passing a Police building, and there they set up large posters advertizing the newly set up National Guard. One of the posters is a large portrait of this bastard:

Felix Dzerzhinsky

Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky (Russian: Фе́ликс Эдму́ндович Дзержи́нский; Polish: Feliks Dzierżyński [ˈfɛlʲiks dʑerˈʐɨɲskʲi]; 11 September [O.S. 30 August] 1877 – 20 July 1926), nicknamed Iron Felix, was a Soviet statesman of Polish descent and a prominent member of revolutionary movements. His party pseudonyms were Yatsek, Yakub, Pereplyotchik (meaning "bookbinder"), Franek, Astronom, Yuzef and Domanski. He was a member of several revolutionary committees such as the Polish Revkom as well as several Russian and Soviet official positions. Dzerzhinsky is best known for establishing and developing...

He instituted the Soviet Secret Police that killed millions.

When the revolution in 1991 took place, his huge statue was taken away by the crowd immediately.

Снос памятника Дзержинскому на Лубянке Август 1991 год

►

Damkerng T.

For some reason, I'm suspicious of anything named National Guard everywhere.

CowperKettle

And now he is promoted as a good guy, in the spirit of fight against the "Fifth Column" allededly funded by the US

Damkerng T.

04:15

(Hey, we got a question with "four columns" in the text only yesterday!)

CowperKettle

I recall that question.

Damkerng T.

Quote of the Day: 'History is written by the victors.' — Walter Benjamin

CowperKettle

Excuse me, did you mean to write "illuminated (highlighted)" or "eliminated (removed)"? — CowperKettle 16 mins ago

Damkerng T.

Foreign language textbooks organized by grammar are passé these days. It is now presumed by language teaching communities that a student is learning a foreign to–believe it or not–actually be able to communicate or function in the new language, not master the grammar, which is good for about nothing. So the best textbooks these days are organized by communicative topics (greetings, etc), or notional functional topics (how to accomplish things with the new language, such as give directions) and "grammar" is learned en route, as a portion or subsection of each chapter. — AlanCarmack 4 mins ago

I noticed that too.

CowperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

04:22

I wonder if the newer generations of learners who learned English from those newer books, though it's fair to assume that they should able to communicate well orally, will do better or worse (or about the same) in complicated texts (e.g., novels, technical texts, legal texts, etc.), compared to those who learned the other way around (e.g., me!).

And how good their grammar would be (better, worse, about the same)?

Also, their essay writing skills.

IMNSHO, in the end, we have to learn everything. :D

CowperKettle

It's simple. If they love to read, they essay writing skills will be okay.

Damkerng T.

nods

CowperKettle

There's a guy on Chem SE, a Russian, I doubt that he studied English grammar in depth. He makes an occasional mistake or two, but due to his passion for chemistry he mastered English well. I mean he apparently read a trainload of English-language papers and textbooks.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Language is a skill that we can't really fake.

CowperKettle

The brain is a statistical machine programmed to soak up grammar on the fly - if you have a passion for what you intend to read or to tell.

Damkerng T.

04:28

(or hide!)

CowperKettle

I tried to read about Hebbian networks, since they are presumed to be the foundation of how we learn, but understood that I'll never be able to. But I come across mentions of the brain being a "neural statistic network" now and then. (0:

On "Science News" (0:

> A new approach to language learning is being tested: resetting your ears in a bid to recreate the ‘critical period’ of language learning. In this study researchers are testing neurosensory auditory stimulation as a means of resetting our ears to regain this starting capacity.

Damkerng T.

I didn't study AI formally, and I can't explain Hebbian without looking it up in textbooks (or Wikipedia). I'm more familiar with perceptrons.

CowperKettle

I read about perceptrons as a kid, but only in an amateur-level book about AI. You know, with colorful robots travelling along the rainbow etc.; explaining the concepts on kid level..

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle nods -- I'm not sure if Hebbian's idea is really related to the mirror neuron theory in language learning contexts. (I remember that some books try to relate them together.)

@CowperKettle Hey, I like colorful robots! Robots should be colorful!

CowperKettle

> Taking your ears back to square one to improve language learning

Damkerng T.

04:34

Heh! That idea "resetting your ears" is probably not that new.

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. The book was based around the story about robots with different AI systems trying to learn how do obtain pots of gold from dragons, depending on the particular dragon's behaviour and outward features.

Damkerng T.

I think it's similar to my idea which is similar to the idea of "silent period".

@CowperKettle Sounds like fun!

CowperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

It could've been made as a game, even!

> The volunteers will undergo these tests after each session of Mozart: "[They] will give us an idea as to the listening skills of each participant in terms of the language being learned and allow us to chart their progress," Cristina Pérez of the UPV tells us.

Hah! I felt like they stole me idea!

CowperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

04:40

I remember I mentioned something similar (using songs, especially songs from other languages than your first language and the second language that you want to learn) to snailboat (now snail plane) a couple years ago.

CowperKettle

> Spanish-speakers […] hear frequencies of between 125 and 2,500 hertz; Russians, meanwhile, are able to receive and process frequencies from 25 to 11,000 hertz, which goes some way to explaining their affinity for language-learning.

Damkerng T.

Found it!

in English Language Learners, Dec 18 '13 at 17:42, by snailboat

@DamkerngT. Well, when I first messaged you, all you had written was "It breaks the ice!"

CowperKettle

Yay!

Damkerng T.

I guess my "breaking the ice" is roughly the same as their "resetting your ears". :D

CowperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

04:43

(However lame my expression may sound in English. :P)

(Looking back, it would sound strange in English indeed. No wonder snailboat got curious. :-)

@CowperKettle Now it makes sense why you and your sister are good at it! :-)

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. Why aren't all simultaneous translators in the world Russians then..

Damkerng T.

That's quite curious!

@AlanCarmack If I may ask, as I'm quite curious now, what did you mean by that minions? :-) — Damkerng T. 22 hours ago

gkjgvbnj keyboard — AlanCarmack 16 hours ago

I wonder if that's an answer for me!

Hmm... or was it a typo of "mentions"?

English is hard ...

Damkerng T.

05:45

Onion peels are not delicious, if edible ...

Damkerng T.

06:45

Uh-oh! It sounds like it's going to be another heavy rain!

Hmm... I still can't wrap my head around this one and have to consult references every time: is it "0.5 point" or "0.5 points"? (I know I can work around that by simply saying half a point, but writing 0.5 looks better in technical documents.)

Wait, do we write "1.0 points"!?!

CowperKettle

What's the point?

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

CowperKettle

Well, you should make a point of it and ask a question on main site.

It could bring you some points.

Damkerng T.

I guess so. Maybe I've done too much research so there is no much point in asking it on the main. :D

CowperKettle

awww.. that's disappointing

Damkerng T.

06:55

It looks like Swan suggests "0.5 points".

lol

CowperKettle

I see. It's pointless to ask on SE because Swan has it all.

Damkerng T.

Okay, maybe I'll consider posting it, if it's not a duplicate.

CowperKettle

Good point!

2

Q: Meaning in context: Old men like me don't bother with making points. There's no point

The following dialog is taken from the movie The.Matrix.Reloaded.2003: Councillor: ...What is control? Neo: If we wanted, we could shut these machines down. Councillor: Of course. That's it. You hit it. That's control, isn't it? If we wanted, we could smash them to bits. Although ...

meaning-in-context word-play pun

Damkerng T.

Haha!

CowperKettle

(0:

Araucaria

07:47

@johnchae Morning (uk time). You around right now?

Damkerng T.

08:19

I think I just found something quite weird. I found that if I record an English program on my TV with my iPad (I tried it because I was watching an old movie and found that the audio was a bit muffed), the playback on iPad is more easily understandable, even at a much lower volume!

(I held my iPad a few feet in front of the TV.)

It's still hard for me to predict what makes intelligibility!

johnchae

09:08

Good afternoon :)

@Araucaria Oh... I'm here

Araucaria

@johnchae Hi!

Thanks for your post (+1 from me , btw!)

johnchae

Hey @Araucaria I'm reading the chat-log and your questions now actually.

:)

Araucaria

@johnchae OK, Ill wait a sec :)

@CowperKettle Morning!

CowperKettle

@Araucaria Good morning!

Araucaria

o/

johnchae

09:20

@Araucaria Thank you! I think I'll try to answer your question posted here first.

"How about: "Bertha có chấp nhận lời đề nghị đó hay không, cô ấy thật là điên rồ" will that work? "

Araucaria

@johnchae Great!

johnchae

"Bertha có chấp nhận lời đề nghị đó hay không" in this context works as a question actually!

Araucaria

@johnchae Great. Is the bigger sentence grammatical?

johnchae

So just like in English, you will need to put something like "if she did/if so" before that. ""Bertha có chấp nhận lời đề nghị đó hay không, nếu có, cô ấy thật là điên rồ!"

Yeah, it's grammatical! But it makes no sense.

"Nếu có" means "if she did"

Araucaria

@johnchae Oh, ok. Let me think for a second ...

johnchae

09:24

I'm trying to find another example... Hang on

Araucaria

@johnchae How can I say "Whether you work here or not, you can't enter without a ticket"?

johnchae

Translation: "Dù bạn có làm việc ở đây hay không, bạn không thể vào nếu không có vé."

It's a literally translation!

Araucaria

@johnchae Will "Dù bạn có làm việc ở đây hay không" work as a subordinate interrogative clause? "I don't know whether you work here or not", for example?

johnchae

In this case, Vietnamese just works like in English. "Dù bạn có làm việc ở đây hay không, bạn không thể vào nếu không có vé.""

Hmm

Araucaria

@johnchae ... or maybe a main clause interrogative "Do you work here or not?"

johnchae

09:30

You will have to remove "Dù" if you want it to work like that: "Tôi không biết bạn có làm việc ở đây hay không."

2

A: "I don't know if they escaped" / "If they escaped, they're long gone" - Conditional protases and interrogative clauses

Let's start with subordinate closed interrogative clauses, since I think in Vietnamese, they work pretty much the same way as in English: If Bertha accepted that offer, she's crazy. Translation: Nếu Bertha đồng ý lời đề nghị đó, cô ấy thật là điên rồ. Funny thing is, as you can see, yo...

Just like "if"

you will need to remove "nếu" (which means "if" in English). And then you have to add "hay không" or "hay chưa" (which is literally translated as "or not" in English) at the end of the sentence, because without them, it would sound really odd and more likely nobody would understand what you mean.

PhMgBr

Something's happened to my eyes' unicode. I see bizarre chars in chat. O_o

johnchae

The same goes to "dù", which means "whether" in English

Oh

You may need to change "Text encoding" to "Unicode" I think

PhMgBr

How can I do that with my eyes?

Eat more carrots?

johnchae

Hehe

Can you take a snap shot?

Araucaria

@johnchae How about "I am asking whether you work here or not"?

Would we keep the "dù" in that situation?

johnchae

09:36

No, I would remove it.

PhMgBr

johnchae

But if it were: "I don't care whether you work here or not", then I would use "dù" here.

Translation: "Tôi không quan tâm dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không"

Araucaria

@johnchae Ah, bingo! Would you consider "dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không" an interrogative clause? And do you consider "dù" and interrogative word?

johnchae

@PhMgBr Lol, I though you were @Araucaria saying that.

Yes, I think so @Araucaria

Araucaria

@johnchae Wow! So there are a couple of sentences in Vietnamese where conditional clauses and interrogative clauses look the same!

johnchae

09:42

Give me a minute, I'm trying to find an example, a better one :)

Araucaria

@johnchae Thanks Johnchae, that's really helpful!

:D

johnchae

Ok, off the top of my head, I think "I don't care" is the best example here, with which conditional clauses and interrogative clauses look the same. But I will try to find more, and update my answer then.

For the time being...

Araucaria

@johnchae Thanks so much for your time and help!!

johnchae

"Dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không, không ai được vào phòng này cả"

"Tôi không quan tâm dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không!"

PhMgBr

@Araucaria Credits roll

johnchae

09:50

"Dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không" in those example above, they work the same way.

Araucaria

@johnchae And that's "whether you work here or not" right?

johnchae

"Whether you work here or not, no one is allowed to enter this room" -> "Dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không, không ai được vào phòng này cả"

"I don't care whether you work here or not!" -> ""Tôi không quan tâm dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không!""

@Araucaria Correct!

Araucaria

@johnchae Fantastic. Got it! :) As Phenyl hinted, I'll be giving you a credit in my PhD thesis (if I ever finish it!) :-)

johnchae

@Araucaria Thanks, though without it or not, I will still do my best to help you on your PhD, so just if you have another quesion, please, fire away :)

Let me find some examples for "main clause open interrogatives", I'm not sure if in Vietnamese, there are cases where conditional clauses and main clause open interrogatives look the same though.

Araucaria

@johnchae Actually, I'm just wonderin. Does "Dù" mean something like "although"?

Like maybe it's not really interrogative? What do you think?

johnchae

10:02

It basically means "whether" in English. Note that, without "dù" in "Tôi không quan tâm dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không!", this sentence still has the same meaning.

Araucaria

@johnchae Ok, that's cool. Thanks! :) Useful illustration there.

CowperKettle

Funny notification. — J.R. ♦ 5 mins ago

Araucaria

That definitely makes it look like an interrogative marker then. Would also explain why it isn't needed in some sentences too (like ones with ask or know).

johnchae

Hmm, but I think it works best with "dù", as now that I read it again without it, it sounds pretty odd. If you want it to work without "dù", then the line should be:

""Tôi không quan tâm bạn có làm việc ở đây hay không!""

Adding "có" between "bạn" and "làm" makes it sound more natural.

So "Tôi không quan tâm bạn có làm việc ở đây hay không!" = "Tôi không quan tâm dù bạn làm việc ở đây hay không!"

Araucaria

@johnchae What does "có" mean?

johnchae

10:07

Hmm

"Có" means "have", but in this context it works as a, hmm, a preposition?

Not sure what kind of word it is, but the sentence would sound more natural with it in that context.

:)

Araucaria

@johnchae Cool, I can work with that:)

Thanks!

johnchae

And to answer this question: "Like maybe it's not really interrogative? What do you think?" "Dù" in this context is an interrogative!

I'm sure about that!

@Araucaria

Araucaria

@johnchae That's the most important thing! :D

johnchae

Like: "Whether you like it or not" -> "Dù bạn có thích hay không"/ "Dù bạn thích hay không"

Damkerng T.

Apparently, I started to be able to recognize hay không! :D

johnchae

10:19

Dù (whether) bạn (you) thích (like) hay không (or not). As you can see, there are no changes of the word order when I translate it into English!

Afternoon @DamkerngT. :)

Damkerng T.

Good afternoon!

("Something, something, something, hay không?" "không" :P)

johnchae

"That guy" knows what's up :p

You've got it!

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Araucaria

@johnchae I think I'm learning something about languages in general, which is that some languages have conditional adjuncts that look like subordinate clauses or main clauses, many languages have exhaustive conditionals with antecedents that look either like main clause or subordinate clauses, and very many languages have exhaustive whether or not type conditionals where the whether ...or not phrase can be used as interrogative clauses ... Interesting!

johnchae

Right :)

Araucaria

10:25

@johnchae So is "không" a negative word?

johnchae

Yes, it is!

Another example:

Nvm, it won't work :(

Araucaria

@johnchae How about "I don't understand [Dù] XYZ [hay không]" ?

or rather:

"I understand [không] [dù XYZ hay không]" ?

johnchae

Yes, it might work.

Hmm

Actually, "không" in Vietnamese can mean a lot, like "don't", "no" or "not", so it should be

"I không [understand] [dù XYZ hay không]"

Araucaria

@johnchae So không goes before the verb?

johnchae

Yeah

Araucaria

10:34

right:)

Damkerng T.

man (แม่น, a word in a dialect of Thai, meaning "yes" :-) -- man-bore-man (แม่นบ่แม่น) ~ [yes-not-yes] = right or not right. ;-)

johnchae

In those sentences, it stands for "don't"

Araucaria

@johnchae got it

johnchae

I think I've got it...

Hang on

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Can that be a question?

Damkerng T.

10:41

@Araucaria It can turn every (I think) affirmative sentence into a question, and it can be used to turn an affirmative clause into an interrogative clause!

[ blah, blah, blah ] แม่นบ่แม่น? (or in standard Thai [ blah, blah, blah ] ใช่ไม่ใช่?)

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Can it be used in a conditional antecedent? (meaning something like, whether or not ...)

Damkerng T.

I think so. We can consider it as a variation of "or not" constructions.

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Hmmm, interesting!

Damkerng T.

Oh, wait! It's not quite like a conditional.

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Hmmm, interesting!

Damkerng T.

10:44

Oh, yes. I think it's equivalent to whether or not ...

LOL

(The problem was whether or not ... doesn't sound quite like a conditional in my mind.)

BTW, it's fun to speak in that dialect (which is sometimes humorously called "Isnt" in English, because its pronunciation is "i-san" :-).

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Think of it as "If A, and if not A, B."

@DamkerngT. He he!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... in Thai, its sense is a bit more like "If A or if not A, B".

(But I guess the difference is not very big.)

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. Yes, the same in English for me. The "If A, and if not A, B" is the kind of interpretation H&P give to it. But I think it's more like 'or' as you say.

Damkerng T.

A song from a band named "The Isn't" (this Isn't stands for that dialect): youtube.com/watch?v=7WIk2WCCOH0. :D (I can't recall the name of the original English (American?) song. What is it?)

(Oops! Wrong link. Fixed!)

Oh, yes! "The Sound Of Silence", Simon And Garfunkel!

johnchae

11:05

Sorry, I was away.

Damkerng T.

@Araucaria I let the music play and one verse reminds me of this construction. I'm thinking that I would consider it a conditional in Thai, but it doesn't sound like a conditional in English.

เฝ้าชะเง้อจ้องมองขวัญตา ก็ไหนบอกว่าจะมาแต่วัน (lit.) I kept craning my neck looking for you, 'cause you said you would've come early.

(He was waiting for her at a bus stop.)

But that 'cause is not quite a literal translation. It's more like a workaround because I don't have any real equivalent word in English for ก็ไหน (ก็-ko is a particle, ไหน-nai is somewhat like "which", but it's not quite like "which" when it's used on its own, not modifying any noun.)

It's a bit like I kept craning my neck looking for you [ you said you would've come early, right? ].

Right now I wonder if you'd consider this antecedents as well:

ชื่นชีวัน เมื่อฉันและเธอชิดใกล้ (lit.) It's delightful when I and you are near.

(BTW, most of these songs in this playlist are love songs!)

johnchae

11:29

@DamkerngT. Are Jin Yong: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Yong and his books popular in Thai?

Damkerng T.

I love his The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber!

He's known as "kim yong" over here.

I guess Thais have experienced probably all remakes of The Legend of the Condor Heroes. :P

One thing I like in his Condor Heroes is that you don't have to be someone born great to success. Just be honest and diligent is more than enough.

johnchae

The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber is my favorite as well. We call him "Kim Dung" here in Vietnam. And the genre of his books is known as "Truyện chưởng", which basically means something unreal, in a good way :)

Damkerng T.

Oh, hmm... the name of the genre in Thai sounds a bit funny.

It's something like "Chinese power inner" (i.e., inner power ("qi", I suppose) in Chinese stories). [นิยายจีนกำลังภายใน]

johnchae

Wow, I didn't know Kim Dung and his books, maybe I can that as his culture were that popular in Thai. Because you know, Vietnam was invades by China for around 1000 years, thus we share a lot of things in common, in terms of culture, like books, music... So I thought Kim is popular in China, Vietnam and Malaysia, HongKong, Taiwan...

And yes, I think 99% Vietnamese have watched all the remakes of The Legend of the Condor Heroes. But to me, 1995 version and 2006 one are the best!

Damkerng T.

nods -- Actually, a full set of The Legend of the Condor Heroes (a translation) is the second multi-volume novel I've read in full!

@johnchae Probably the same best two in my idea!

Another verse of a related structure: ก็จบไปแล้ว จะหวังอะไร (lit.) (It's) ended, what (I) hope (for).

Apparently, Thai ก็ covers multiple functions!

johnchae

11:48

Kim Dung really has a influence on Vietnamese with his books, and maybe on Indochina area as well, because, as I mentioned above, we're invaded by China in such a long time, so their language is pretty similar to ours, therefore we can translate it into our language without losing the original idea that Kim Dung want to express... You know, we have "huynh", "muội" which translate to English as "brother" and "sister", and used especially in his books...

That's the main reason I think why his books are not that popular in the West, because, well, I've read Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils, and the names of skills in English sound pretty unnatural...

Damkerng T.

@johnchae Oh, like when they vowed together on their blood?

@johnchae I think we only need a good translator and good marketing. :D

johnchae

We call that moment as "Uống máu ăn thề"

:)

Damkerng T.

What does it mean?

johnchae

That's when they vow together on their blood :)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see!

Come to think of it, "muội" sounds like "(ah)-muay", a well-known cognate word from Chinese in Thai, meaning the same: sister.

But for brothers, it's "(ah)-tee" in Thai.

johnchae

11:55

Oh, cool. We use "anh", "chị", which mean "brother", "sister" in normal life though.

Do you guys use "(ah)-muay" and "(ah)-tee" in normal life too or just in his books?

Damkerng T.

@johnchae Mostly only in Chinese-related contexts. Like during Chinese New Year, we will hear these two words more often!

johnchae

Oh right, then just like in Vietnam :)

Damkerng T.

Thai has no real words for "brother" and "sister", we have only "elder brother", "younger brother" and such.

It seems like we tend to omit the gender rather than omit the seniority marker.

So, it'd go like, "Elder (brother/sister), how are you today?"

A bit like "senpai" (or "sempai") in Japanese, I think.

johnchae

Oh I see, so does Vietnamese. You call someone "chị" when she is older than you, and the same thing goes to "anh", but we use "em" for both younger brother and younger sister.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

johnchae

12:02

That's why when I translate an English movie, I have to take some time to understand the background of this movie first, because "you" could mean a lot in Vietnamese :)

Damkerng T.

A possible related conditional clause that could be used on its own (this one is a command): แต่ขอร้อง อย่าพูดคำลา (lit.) But (I) beg [ not say goodbye ].

Wow, listening to these songs gives me a lot more ideas!

johnchae

Which songs? I want to have a listen too :p

Damkerng T.

@johnchae Oh, yes! We've got the same problem. It's quite often that the translator has to guess, and sometimes they guess wrong!

@johnchae They're just Thai songs. Kinda nostalgia for me. :-)

johnchae

Ahhh :)

Araucaria

@DamkerngT. When is a difficult one ... So's whenever ...

Damkerng T.

12:06

I mentioned "Isn't" as a humorous name of a Thai dialect (อีสาน, read "i-san"), and there was a band named "The Isn't". I found their playlist and let it run.

johnchae

The lastest movie I translated without knowing its background is The Witch, it has a scene when a young woman feeding his son. And I immediately translated it into "Mẹ" (which means "mother"), turned out she is just an elder sister when I reach to the end of the movie :p

Oh @DamkerngT. "It's something like "Chinese power inner" (i.e., inner power ("qi", I suppose) in Chinese stories)." Then the meaning is the same as ours. We call them "Truyện Chưởng", and "Chưởng" here means something powerful that you release from inside your body, like Kamehameha in "Dragon Ball" :)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I guess they are pretty similar, then. :D

Do you use Chưởng for qi as well?

johnchae

Huh "qi"?

I don't know what it means :/

Damkerng T.

You probably spell it chi. It can be spelled either way in English.

oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/chi?q=qi#chi-2

In Thai, we use both "chi" and "pran" (as in prana), but "pran" is more usual.

johnchae

I think we call it "Nội lực" :)

Damkerng T.

12:20

Oh! So Chưởng is an entirely different thing.

johnchae

Oops, I gotta go, will talk with you later.

Damkerng T.

See you later!

johnchae

See you around @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

Hah!

ไม่ได้สม ไม่เห็นแคร์อะไร

(lit.) Not fulfill, not care whatsoever

In standard English, I suppose it'd be like: Even though my hope is not fulfilled, I don't care.

Note that ไม่ได้สม (Not fulfill) is not of the same pattern as หรือไม่/หรือเปล่า (or not).

Another one: อายอาย เธอหรือนี่ (lit.) Shy, shy; you is it!. ~ I feel so shy ('cause) it's really you!

เธอหรือนี่ (lit.) You is it? ~ Is this (really) you?

Damkerng T.

14:03

@Araucaria After listening to several love songs, I think I can add another related structure, but it works rather differently from English conditionals. It's somewhat similar to English inversions in that the conditional is implied rather than explicitly specified by if. It's different from inversions because there is no change in word order.

Another major difference is that unlike in English, where the protases will correspond to main clause open interrogatives, these implied protases in Thai will correspond to main clause open affirmatives.

In other words, we can use any clause as a protasis(!) if we take advantage of the pro-drop feature of Thai. And instead of using if or change the word order in the protasis, we add a function word, typically คง (would/probably/likely) or จะ (will/shall/should) in the main clause.

For example (from a song),

> ต่างคนต่างนอนเดียวดาย จะหนาวตายนะเจ้าพุ่มพวง

> (lit.) Each sleep alone, will freeze (to) death sweetheart (you know)

> Standard English: If/Because each of us sleeps alone, you could freeze to death, my love.

(Note that because whether or not it's a conditional is implied, as there is no function word there, it can be equally interpreted either as If or Because, depending on context. And in this song, the context allows both interpretations(!))

Maybe we can call this type of conditional a "covert conditional"! :P

Not sure if you really are interested in this pattern, but I'd like to document it here anyway.

Damkerng T.

14:36

(Some other suggestive words that could be used in the main clause to turn two clauses into a conditional sentence: แน่, แหง, เนาะ, นะ. Could be more. E.g., พระอาทิตย์ตก หนาวตายแน่ (lit.) 'Sun sets freeze dead sure' ~ 'If/When the sun sets, we will (surely) freeze to death.')

(When being said in a right tone, it's possible to simply string two clauses together to get a conditional. E.g., พระอาทิตย์ตก หนาวตาย (lit.) 'Sun sets freeze dead' ~ 'If/When the sun sets, we freeze to death.' -- ก็ can be used to smooth the flow (พระอาทิตย์ตก ก็หนาวตาย) but it's not that necessary.)

Damkerng T.

15:05

For a lonely day (Thai lyrics on the YouTube page):

ห่วงหา-Banana Boat.wmv

►

bjb568

15:23

noice

Damkerng T.

15:57

Tnx!

Damkerng T.

16:20

I ran into a nice song, so I translated its lyrics.

> ขอบฟ้า ขอบฝั่ง ความหวัง แผ่นดิน - MR.TEAM

> Horizon, Shore, Hope, Land
Lyrics: Waratchaya Phromsathit

I've journeyed for so long in the sea, in a small boat floating aimlessly.
At the horizon, no shore can be seen. However longer I have to travel, I'm not afraid.
When there was a storm getting in the way, my boat sank, but I'm still here. I must keep going.

* With determination, my target is the land. With only two bare hands, the destination is yet so far.
With but patience, one day I'll reach the far away land.

** I've been floating alone in the sea, swimming along the stream aimlessly.

Nihilist_Frost

reddit.com/r/badlinguistics

lol

lots of the worst language-related trash is reported on there

Damkerng T.

@Nihilist_Frost What's it called on Reddit? A thread, a group, or something else?

Nihilist_Frost

@DamkerngT. subreddit.

Damkerng T.

Ah, thanks!

Damkerng T.

16:35

Decimals are fractions of 1 therefore 1 x a value. the written forms use the rule of context so half is read as one half point while 0.5 is read as 0.5 points — Shon 36 mins ago

Hmm... I'm not sure if I could improve the answer.

It sounds like Shon's idea is when we write anything as a decimal, 1.0 included, it's a fraction by definition, and even 1.0 is one multiplied by something (a value), so 1.0 point is more logical(?).

I'd better leave it for others to judge. :D

CowperKettle

Good evening!

Damkerng T.

Good evening!

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. Great!

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

I wish I could fix a couple things, but it's rather okay as is (I hope!).

CowperKettle

> The shattered storm has left its trace
Upon this huge and heaving dome,
For the thin threads of yellow foam
Float on the waves like ravelled lace.

Damkerng T.

16:45

Oh, there's a dome!

CowperKettle

In a short verse by Oscar Wilde

I translated it into Russian some months ago

Damkerng T.

Nice!

CowperKettle

Titled "La Mer" (Sea)

BBL!

Damkerng T.

See you later!

CowperKettle

Feb 14 at 12:03, by CopperKettle

1

Q: Meaning of "dome"

Oscar Wilde writes in his poem La Mer: The shattered storm has left its trace Upon this huge and heaving dome, For the thin threads of yellow foam Float on the waves like ravelled lace. What is heaving dome here? Is it a sky dome or a sea surface? Can you say heaving about sky?

word-usage meaning-in-context

Damkerng T.

16:54

Thanks!

CowperKettle

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