Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

00:06

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. On the other hand, "Hey, guys!" can be commonly heard in all-female groups.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Does the this is construction have any special grammar, apart from the grammar associated with this itself?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I was thinking that there is something special about There's ... in some aspects of information delivery.

It seems like This is ... is somewhat similar to There's ... in this respect.

At least the article choices, I think.

@snailboat I'm quite sure I've seen it used that way in some movies or TV series/reality shows before!

Anonymous

Wait, do I respond to good morning with another good morning?

Damkerng T.

(I would be a little surprised, because everyone in the scene was female!)

@snailboat In UGT (Universal Greeting Time), it's always in the morning when someone joins the chat!

Anonymous

00:11

I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone object to guys when used that way.

Anonymous

I mean, I've seen people say all sorts of things online, in chat rooms and so forth, but in my experience it's been a non-issue.

Damkerng T.

nods -- It sounds like a friendly, casual way to indicate the plurality of you. :-) (in you guys)

Anonymous

Now, referring to someone who's female as a guy is completely different.

Damkerng T.

I think rather than saying guy, the speaker would just say her name.

(Between Hey, Jane and Hey, you, I think the former is more likely!)

Anonymous

I'm not sure Nate Eldredge's link rises to the level of actual controversy.

Anonymous

00:14

@DamkerngT. Well sure, but point at a woman with your thumb and say "This guy, right here", and observe the results :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

Interestingly, guy has also taken on an inanimate use.

2

Anonymous

Meaning something like thing.

Anonymous

I don't know if you'd want to consider it personification. I don't feel like it is.

Damkerng T.

I was thinking it might be objectification, but things could go downhill from there!

Anonymous

00:17

That's a loaded term, so in linguistics I'm not sure I'd use it. Not that it's inaccurate.

Anonymous

But I try to avoid terms that have strong associations that aren't necessarily relevant.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

Well, kicking someone down the animacy hierarchy isn't a very nice thing to do, no matter what you call it.

Damkerng T.

I found an interesting (syntax) tree, by the way.

Anonymous

Referring to a human as it is always rude.

Damkerng T.

00:19

@snailboat Except for babies, I guess.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, you're right.

Anonymous

I was thinking of adult human beings when I said it.

Anonymous

Likewise, we have some uses of animate pronouns in reference to inanimate objects which are conventionalized enough that we may not want to consider them personification, like she in reference to ships.

Anonymous

Although I'm not saying it isn't personification.

Damkerng T.

It sounds like personification to me. Perhaps out of affection, even!

Anonymous

00:21

Sure. It could be. It might depend on the particular speaker and how they're thinking of it.

Anonymous

I'd just leave open the possibility that they're using it in a conventionalized sense and not actually (semantically) personifying. Of course, we can't read minds.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

We'd expect ships to be at the bottom of the animacy hierarchy, except for the fact that they move. Things that move can sometimes be higher up.

Anonymous

Usually we have inanimate objects at the bottom, and then above that we have animals, both lower and higher in the hierarchy.

Anonymous

Ants are lower, cows are higher.

Damkerng T.

00:23

I think I've heard some people refer to their computers as "he", too. Not sure how often that is.

Anonymous

So people are more likely to refer to cows as she and ants as it, although cows can also be it.

Anonymous

An ant can be he or she, but that would be somewhat unusual.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, some people personify their computers.

Damkerng T.

Cows are quite high in the hierarchy, especially in India and China!

Anonymous

The last time I saw someone do that was in a work of fiction, and it seems pretty weird to me :-)

Anonymous

00:25

There are people who name their musical instruments.

Anonymous

Like, with human names.

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes! Musical instruments, too!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, this is one of the places where semantics and grammar overlap, but it is language-specific.

Anonymous

I can't really speak to the animacy hierarchy in any of the thousand Indian languages.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

00:27

But I would expect that your observation plays into it to some extent.

Damkerng T.

BTW, I just noticed ...

8 mins ago, by snailboat

Referring to a human as it is always rude.

Does that mean that sometimes people address someone as it purposely in English, too?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In Japanese, there are two basic verbs of existence, iru (animate) and aru (inanimate). But moving objects like cars use iru :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes.

Damkerng T.

I see. Thanks!

Anonymous

Kicking someone down the animacy hierarchy is a rude, dehumanizing thing to do. People do it, though.

Damkerng T.

00:29

nods

It's a bit tricky in Thai.

Anonymous

How so?

Damkerng T.

The pronoun equivalent to it (มัน) can be used rudely and affectionately!

It's highly context dependent.

But generally, we would teach children to avoid saying มัน when referring to someone.

I don't know why a huge set of words in Thai that are supposed to sound rude can be used to show affection as well.

E.g., อาจารย์-เขา-ก็-เป็น-คน-แบบ-นี้ [teacher-him/her-PAR-be-person-like-this] (rough translation: (Don't worry) "He is like that". Supposedly said by a friend after a student was severely reprimand.)

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

I was just reminded by your discussion of something some learners have trouble with:

Anonymous

> It's me! (= "I'm the person who is at the door!")

Damkerng T.

00:38

> อาจารย์-แก-ก็-เป็น-คน-แบบ-นี้ [teacher-you (rude)-PAR-be-person-like-this] <-- For some reason, this sounds warmer!

Anonymous

Because superficially this looks like the speaker is referring to themselves as it!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Warmer like friendlier?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, right!

@snailboat Hmm... It sounds warmer toward the teacher!

Though it's not quite obvious about "friendly", not in any way.

Perhaps it sounds like the teacher and the students are closer than when เขา is used.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Japanese tends to have the opposite kind of semantic change. Words that are supposed to be respectful become rude over time.

Anonymous

Well, that's not exactly the opposite.

Anonymous

00:41

Like, kisama, which is made of two morphemes both of which express respect, is now usually translated something like "You bastard!"

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

You might know that -sama as a respectful suffix similar to -san.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

-sama is actually the original word, and -san is a contracted form.

Anonymous

So the original -sama is more respectful.

Anonymous

00:43

These days -san has become neutral.

Anonymous

Well, it still shows respect, but it's like the basic expected level of respect, so it's fairly neutral in practice.

Anonymous

Kisama should be very respectful!

Damkerng T.

But it's become You bastard!

Anonymous

It's very rude. It's quite common in fiction, though.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I thought Google Translate would translate it as You bastard, too, but it gave me you.

@snailboat Interesting!

Anonymous

00:46

It's a second-person pronoun.

Anonymous

It's just a rude second-person pronoun.

Damkerng T.

Oh, BTW, I've heard that shit in Japanese is much ruder than in English.

I don't know if it's true.

Anonymous

It's really hard to compare the two.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Very important difference!

Anonymous

I feel like an innocent child saying kuso would sound more like they're saying "crap", but when politeness is expected it would be worse than English "shit".

Anonymous

00:47

So it could be better or worse I think.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... it's not straightforward. (But what would I expect?!)

Anonymous

I don't know. There's probably some subtlety to the use of vulgar language I don't have down 100%, so I'm not sure I should try to describe it. It's hard.

Anonymous

I can tell you there are a lot of strange myths about Japanese swearing.

Anonymous

One myth says that Japanese has no swears.

Damkerng T.

LOL!

Anonymous

00:49

Japanese, of course, has lots of taboo vocabulary.

Anonymous

Ranging from mild to "I can't even bring myself to discuss that word".

Anonymous

Just like English in that respect, really.

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's because Japanese people always look well-composed at all times in public.

Anonymous

Some of it's pretty interesting.

Anonymous

Like, you can use kuso- as a prefix for someone's name. :-)

Damkerng T.

00:51

Hah!

Anonymous

I mean, of course, I'm not recommending this. I'm anti-recommending it.

Anonymous

But it's interesting!

Anonymous

Actually, I try not to swear in any language.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I don't do much swearing myself, but I guess we all should know how serious they mean when others swear.

Anonymous

Yeah. I mean, you're going to eventually end up exposed to taboo vocabulary whether you use it yourself or not.

Anonymous

00:52

And that is part of learning a language.

Anonymous

I feel like taboo vocabulary is kind of a bottomless pit, though.

Anonymous

Because I think every language has people who are creative with taboo language.

Damkerng T.

Hehe! I think you're right!

I still can't figure out (sorry about the words) where "f-ck duck" or "f-ck mortar" in Thai came from!

BTW, it's less rude than those expressions with "mother" or "father" in Thai.

Hmm... I forgot that word. What's the word for when we say "shoot" instead of "sh-t" because I think the latter sounds too rude to say?

I remember it's similar to euphemism but more specific.

-1

Q: English, Okay or fine

Which is best to answer when asked how are you feeling when not doing well and do not want to discuss your troubles?

word-choice

An interesting question.

It goes a bit deeper than just language.

Man_From_India

01:38

I saw this sentence in a social network and think that it needs editing -

> Feel like going to a faraway place and never to come back.

Anonymous

@DarrinThomas Please don't paste that message to a bunch of different chat rooms. That's essentially spamming.

Man_From_India

I think that to come should be replaced with coming.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India I think your edit would improve the message.

Damkerng T.

02:01

0

Q: Confusion about the use of 'quite' in 'quite a bit', 'quite a few', and 'quite a lot'

I have a hard time understanding some definitions and usage of quite in English Grammar Today (via Cambridge Dictionaries Online). The explanation is as follows: Quite a bit, quite a few, quite a lot We often use quite with a bit, a few and a lot to refer to large amounts and quantities:...

grammar

After a heavy edit, I'm not sure what tag I should use!

Jim Reynolds

02:14

@Dam What sort of reactions do you have to this:

stujay.com/2010/09/14/…

And o/

Damkerng T.

\o

Language and seduction!

(still waiting for the page to load...)

Jim Reynolds

I noticed that my hero (after snailboat and you guyses) follows his language blog, and this is the first page I landed on!

Damkerng T.

I don't even know who wrote that. (Not yet, so far.) :-)

But I can imagine such a complicated setting.

Jim Reynolds

I meant to identify my hero, Stephen Krashen, though snailboat doesn't agree with aspects of his fundamental theories.

Damkerng T.

Isn't it interesting that in this setting, "Of the Thais there, 80% are women working as ambassadors for their companies to try and find potential western clients."

Jim Reynolds

02:23

There's still time for snailboat to come around, though.

Damkerng T.

Which makes me think ... what kinds of companies are they?!

Jim Reynolds

Yes, a business networking meeting. I guess in something especially dominated by ....

55555

Damkerng T.

> “Phi Cheu Jay na khrap – laew nu la? Cheu len cheu arai khrap?” “พี่ชื่อเจนะครับ แล้วหนูล่ะ?”

Jim Reynolds

Great minds and integrated circuits think alike

Finance/banking maybe?

Is his information accurate?

Damkerng T.

I'd say that it's almost always, Thai or not Thai, saying “พี่ชื่อเจนะครับ แล้วหนูล่ะ?” as the first or second sentence would be used as a way to hit on her. ;-)

It's flirting, in any case.

@JimReynolds I've been through his article, but I can say that some of them are definitely true. I'm not sure if he's got the big picture right, though.

Jim Reynolds

02:27

What sort of doubts about the big picture?

Damkerng T.

If I address a young lady as หนู (which I think I've never done that, except for in a few "entertaining" events, usually in business settings, I'm flirting. ;-)

Jim Reynolds

I felt impressed and somehow distrustful or uncomfortable at the same time

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I don't know yet, because I haven't reached the end.

Jim Reynolds

Ha. Take your time. It's lengthy and somewhat complex

Damkerng T.

BTW, it's a flirting that involves a power play at that. It's clear that I'm asserting that I'm in a higher social status.

Jim Reynolds

02:29

Ah. Maybe he's doing that strategically

Damkerng T.

(Which is why I wouldn't use this word, unless that หนู is very young, or she refers to herself as หนู first.)

nods

She replied, "Wow, but your face is so Farang." -- meaning: she decides to play the game. ;-)

Jim Reynolds

It seems at the least, quite interesting!

Not completely stupid. Not racist or ethnocentric, I feel.

He might have something of an ego, but that in itself is not necessarily a bad thing

Damkerng T.

> - If you’re going to be good at languages, you need to be good at people
- Negging is a high-powered technique that can be used to bulldoze down barriers when it looks like nothing else will work
- Don’t go hunting for lice to put on your own head

I think #1 and #3 are fine.

#2 needs to be considered a bit more carefully.

Jim Reynolds

I agree.

But he gives quite strong caveats, and states that it should be used when it might open up a situation that might be good for all parties involved

Damkerng T.

If it works in his setting, it probably works because she has prepared her mind to make a connection, no matter what, unless it really, really crosses the line. (I can't say that the line would be the same for every office lady.)

Jim Reynolds

02:37

I suppose he travels in a world I don't know well (and don't want to)

Damkerng T.

nods -- I had to, sometimes.

Jim Reynolds

Got to walk dogs. So busy now. Miss y'all!

Damkerng T.

In any case, I think he made a fair case, considering that he limited the situation to a specific setting, and a specific type of Thai girls: "for your average Thai girl that spends most of her life bathing every part of her body with skin whiteners, getting eye-lids folded, inserting contact lenses to make bigger, bluer eyes and possibly a nose job and other cosmetic surgery."

@JimReynolds Have a nice day!

(I'm not that familiar with this type of Thai girls, BTW.)

Jim Reynolds

Yeah. Is that the average Thai girl in certain settings?

His average Thai girl!

Damkerng T.

Probably. I can imagine that some companies employ this type of girls strategically.

@JimReynolds His average Thai girl + that ...

I mean, I don't think he really meant that this kind of girl is an average Thai girl.

But there is of course an average Thai girl who behaves in a specific way.

Jim Reynolds

02:41

I think he is saying that

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Jim Reynolds

It may be somewhat ambiguous

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I don't think that this type of girl can really represent the average Thai girl.

Jim Reynolds

I might read it again. Just because it's provocative

And I want to figure out why Krashen follows his blog

Damkerng T.

It's a rather long article. I admit that I skipped several chunks of it. :D

Jim Reynolds

02:44

How ... dare ... you?

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Jim Reynolds

Hard to read while in your skin bleaching bath?

Damkerng T.

LOL

Jim Reynolds

Haha

Damkerng T.

It was just that I'm not really good at reading long stuff on screen.

> “No matter how much I try to speak in their language, people just speak back to me in English”

This makes me wonder about his Thai.

Jim Reynolds

02:48

I think there may be something to that, but an overgeneralization

Damkerng T.

I mean, Thais are usually very friendly, but unless a non-native speaker can really nail the accent, I think unconsciously most Thais are concerned about how well and how far the non-native speaker of Thai can carry the conversation.

(In other words, most of us think our English is better than your Thai. Mwahaha!)

Jim Reynolds

Well, and that would be right 99.99999% of the time

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Jim Reynolds

If I just stumbed on his page, I would have formed a negative impression quickly and moved on

It's the fact that I can't really pin down who he seems to be that makes it interesting

Damkerng T.

(And really, using the Neg technique could add to the effect. "Have you just memorized hitting lines from a 'Learn Thai in 24-Hour' book or something?", she might think.)

It reads to me as he affiliates with the book (The Game).

Jim Reynolds

02:55

A good question would be how good his Thai is

Damkerng T.

nods -- I wonder if we can find his clip on YouTube.

Jim Reynolds

I'd love to hear HER response to this article!

Damkerng T.

Stu Jay Raj Blown Away by Blonde Surfer Kid from Hawaii Speaking Perfect Thai and Mandarin

►

His accent is not that bad, but it's still somewhat thick. (Not that thick, though.)

The kid in the clip can speak Thai a few levels better than him.

I think he can get the phonemes and even the tones right most of the time.

The obvious problem is the duration he gives to each phoneme.

Sometimes it's too short, sometimes it's too long. And when it happens consistently, it casts some doubt on his proficiency. (Note that I use proficiency rather than fluency.)

(Frankly, I'm not sure who could do better between he speaking Thai and me speaking English.)

Jim Reynolds

03:20

O.O

Damkerng T.

?

Jim Reynolds

So, he ain't too shabby, then!

Damkerng T.

Oh, not at all.

But!

Jim Reynolds

And apparently he speaks a slew of others

Damkerng T.

The sentence he chose to use with the girl is very demanding, in terms of language.

I mean, he has to really, really nail it, to use it effectively.

There are lots of subtleties in his lines, and it's like ...

say, you can talk with snailboat in a way that I know I can't.

Jim Reynolds

03:22

He might be presenting an overly-positive view of himself

Damkerng T.

Because you share exactly the same culture, same background, and so on.

@JimReynolds A little, I think. But he is surely good at Thai.

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Snail culture

Damkerng T.

LOL

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Psychologists refer to "the self-enhancement bias"

Damkerng T.

Nice term!

Jim Reynolds

03:25

In the West, about 80-something percent of adults describe themselves as "better than average" on intelligence, and all other socially-valued characteristics!

Hahaha.

I am not sure how it translates into cultures where modesty and humility are more socially valued

Damkerng T.

I remember you've posted an article or a web page with some charts related to this topic in this chat room once.

How people in different countries look at themselves and such.

Jim Reynolds

I think that was just Hofstede's model of cultural values

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I think so!

Jim Reynolds

There is a debate as to whether seeing ourselves as somewhat better than we are is a good thing, because it can give us extra confidence to take on or persist at challenges, or whether we can be more effective if we perceive ourselves more accurately.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I just noticed that you didn't ping her. I think you should if you want to hear her opinion.

@JimReynolds I think the maxim "Think Positive" resonates the idea quite well.

'resonates with' is probably a little more idiomatic, but nvm.

Jim Reynolds

03:38

But Icarus flew too near the sun, and it melted his wings!

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Because of my religion, I'm usually and unconsciously striving for seeing the truth.

See things as they are, you might say.

Jim Reynolds

Buddhism

Damkerng T.

nods -- Not that I'm truly successful at that, though. :-)

Jim Reynolds

Ha

Well, if you only come back as a snail, maybe snboat will take care of you. That would be a good life!

Damkerng T.

There's some truth in that!

Jim Reynolds

03:42

Too much self-confidence is "narcissistic personality disorder". See Donald J Trump

Damkerng T.

I wonder about the result of the election.

Jim Reynolds

I think he's slightly too extreme to be elected at the moment

Damkerng T.

Possibly. I think he really has a shot at it, though.

Jim Reynolds

But frightened, desperate people like "confidence"

Damkerng T.

nods

Jim Reynolds

03:47

At the nomination, but not against the saner/safer-seeming Hillary, I guess

Damkerng T.

If we weren't in the social network era, I'd definitely think so.

Jim Reynolds

I think it works against him as much as for him

He's considered quite a joke by most, I think

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Jim Reynolds

It's scary how significant of a minority like him, but it's still a minority

Damkerng T.

I don't know your idea about prophecies (like those by Nostradamus) in general. There was a riddle found under a seat of a highly regarded monk who had passed away a long time ago: the tiles will float, the calabashes will sink.

Jim Reynolds

03:51

I am skeptical

But what does it mean?

Damkerng T.

Me too. I'm still a bit fond of them, though. :D

Jim Reynolds

Ha. It can be fun

Damkerng T.

Most people (over here) read this riddle as the calabashes represent good people who really know what is right and will do the right thing.

The tiles are the opposite.

Tiles are much less valuable than calabashes in the old days.

Jim Reynolds

Well, humans are not rational creatures

Damkerng T.

(Probably still are)

@JimReynolds I think so!

Jim Reynolds

03:54

We are well on the way to extinguishing ourselves, I think

Damkerng T.

I hope not. I don't know.

Jim Reynolds

I don't know. But on what rational grounds should we assume we are not "supposed to" self-destruct?

Nothing lasts forever, as they say

Damkerng T.

That's true.

I hope it won't be too soon.

Jim Reynolds

Before lunch would be a shame

I guess I assumed that @snailboat at least skims everything in here. So I guess I thought she could read and react if she wanted to.

Also, I thought anyone might or might not be interested in it, but that you might in particular since it's about English and Thai in Thailand

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds It was an interesting article indeed. Thanks for the sharing!

I'm not really a "follow" guy, but I think I'll add his blog to my bookmarks.

Jim Reynolds

04:27

Besides, I see that @snailboat has gone mad and now babbles in a completely made-up language of her own.

4 hours ago, by snailboat

I mean, of course, I'm not recommending this. I'm anti-recommending it.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Sometimes I miss stuff, so feel free to ping me if you want to make sure I read something :-)

Jim Reynolds

04:50

@snailboat Hi. I didn't feel "sure" if you'd be interested in it, so I left it unpinged and cast the matter to the winds of chance. I just hope other winds didn't blow it away before the winds of chance had the opportunity to get to it.

Damkerng T.

05:25

1

Q: Is it correct to say "take me on the way"

I want to express that I learning some courses will give me a good vision in a specific field. Can I say like "these courses take me on the way to the statistics"?

word-usage word-meaning

This is not an easy question.

It's not easy because it's unclear what the OP really wants to say.

And I doubt if the OP is clear in their mind or can be clear in their post.

Thank you. If I want to express "to be an expert", how could I say? — statistics_learning 8 hours ago

I think this is a good example of "too many simple words" problems.

(Which is the very thing that makes it so difficult, imho.)

Anonymous

05:55

@DamkerngT. Oh, you were reading a paper about of-insertion!

Anonymous

Maybe?

Anonymous

That tree is a little weird.

Anonymous

Maybe something other than a paper?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yes!

It was from Essays in Honor of Charles F. Hockett.

Anonymous

Oh, I was right.

Damkerng T.

05:59

I was inspired by this question:

10

Q: Why is "of" dropped in 'as X (of) a something'?

Can anyone explain why preposition "of" is deleted in the second sentence? Please provide relevant examples to understand. If there is a certain rule, then what is the name of that rule? Incorrect: Most people think that women have achieved equality with men, but sociologists know that stat...

prepositions ellipsis

It asked "what is the name of that rule?"

And after the first few searches I thought "non-constituent connectives" could be it.

But it seems to be not only specific to this of dropping.

Anonymous

Well, I'm a fan of calling things what they are: of-insertion.

Anonymous

Colloquial American English of-insertion.

2

Damkerng T.

I see!

Anonymous

Kind of difficult to come up with a concise name for the place it appears, though.

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4153

Anonymous

06:11

It's making its way into the standard language.

Anonymous

At least in American English.

Damkerng T.

It seems so!

BTW, thanks for the LL article.

Anonymous

2

A: Why is "of" dropped in 'as X (of) a something'?

Apparently there's a grammatical rule being violated in your example sentences with "of", but as a native American-English speaker who writes reports for a living and has always done excellently on English tests (perfect English SAT), I'm completely unaware of it. I'm sure I use the "of" constru...

Anonymous

And at least some speakers are unaware that it's supposed to be non-standard.

Anonymous

But it's likely that older speakers tend to perceive it that way.

Damkerng T.

06:21

Oh, BTW, do you have any tag suggestion for this one?

0

Q: Confusion about the use of 'quite' in 'quite a bit', 'quite a few', and 'quite a lot'

I have a hard time understanding some definitions and usage of quite in English Grammar Today (via Cambridge Dictionaries Online). The explanation is as follows: Quite a bit, quite a few, quite a lot We often use quite with a bit, a few and a lot to refer to large amounts and quantities:...

grammar

The Present Indefinite may be used to express future actions if clauses of time referring to the future introduced by the conjunctions when, while, till, until, before, after, as soon as and once. — Violette 26 mins ago

Hmm... that's a different case from the OP's, I think.

Transcript for