Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

01:28

The name of Theodore Bernstein came up while I was searching for some usage and style recommendations.

Damkerng T.

02:48

TIL Spanish red is English net!

From an old tab:

2

Q: The reaction is fastest at the boiling point of (the?) ammonia

From Sodium amide, Wikipedia: Sodium amide can be prepared by the reaction of sodium with ammonia gas, but it is usually prepared by the reaction in liquid ammonia using iron(III) nitrate as a catalyst. The reaction is fastest at the boiling point of the ammonia, c. −33 °C. Shouldn't it be ...

articles

Even though all native speakers in the question seem to be comfortable with this the, I don't feel the same way.

For me, these two alternatives are better:

> a) The reaction is fastest at the boiling point of ammonia, c. −33 °C.

> b) The reaction is fastest at the boiling point of the ammonia, which is at c. −33 °C.

I guess it boils down to the matter of style.

CowperKettle

04:43

@snailboat I'm to lazy for to do that!

@DamkerngT. For me, ammonia is ammonia is ammonia. It's strange that some particular "the ammonia" should have a boiling point of its own.

CowperKettle

04:58

> Convert again into explosives the bewildered ammonia and the distracted cellulose (Millay)

Anonymous

05:16

@CowperKettle Well then, maybe you can search for the for to infinitive if you want to find out more :-)

Damkerng T.

05:26

It's a strange construction to me! I thought the for was "because", but I just realized that that's not what you were talking about.

21 hours ago, by CowperKettle

> For the wages were low and the hours were long
And the labor was all I could bear.
Now you've got new machines **for** to take my place
And you tell me it's not mine to share.

Hmm...

Poetic license, I think.

Damkerng T.

06:54

Welcome to ELL ! Firstly, why have you used the grammar tag? This is simple reading comprehension, that has nothing to do with grammar. Kindly refrain from posting such questions that involve with helping you with your homework and assignments. Do not take me wrong, but this is clearly Proofreading and as for the Options C and D, it is primarily opinion based, giving the question more than enough reasons to be closed. — Varun KN 47 mins ago

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it's about logical conclusions, not features of the English language. — Nathan Tuggy 23 mins ago

But it's not proofreading, nor is it primarily opinion based.

It's true that it's about logic, but it's also known as verbal reasoning. I'm not sure if it really off-topic. I wouldn't object to closing it as such, though.

I just think that it could be fun!

(And on what stack would it be on-topic? Hmm...)

PhMgBr

08:13

@DamkerngT. We hate fun

Damkerng T.

Oh, something is going on in that question.

PhMgBr

OMG

Damkerng T.

I understand the arguments both for and against whether the question is fit for ELL.

What to do? What to do?

PhMgBr

@NathanTuggy This is a reading exam question for EFL learners, and this is a site to help EFL learners. So we need to help the learners! ;-) That's what we are here to do. Could you retract you close-vote please? — Araucaria 10 mins ago

This is incomplete, and thus misleading.

We're here to help people, according to some rules we set ourselves.

Damkerng T.

For the OP to be able to answer that test question, it needs both English and reasoning skills.

PhMgBr

08:18

BTW @Dam could you buy me a new toothbrush since this one is old and I'm an ELL and you want to help me?

Damkerng T.

@PhMgBr I wish I could do that.

PhMgBr

I told you not to spend so much money on books!

Damkerng T.

Better buy more toothbrushes. :P

PhMgBr

Heh, someone suggested an edit and corrected wrong punctuation to wrong punctuation.

@DamkerngT. Keeping your metal unoxidized is important for your performance.

Damkerng T.

I think so!

The OP seems to have no problem with English (if he wrote the part in the blockquote himself), so perhaps it's off-topic.

But it's possible that he didn't write it himself, considering that the next sentence is "So which option would best suit as a conculsion for the statement?"

PhMgBr

08:25

I'm not a good judge on this since I have an innate hatred towards HW questions.

Damkerng T.

Wait, if he wrote that part himself, how would it be a HW question?

PhMgBr

-5

Q: What was the profile for the main character of the April 2016 joke?

April 2016's joke for SE was a game tied to an account, gaining the same reputation as in the game. What was the profile URL of that account?

discussion april-fools

This I did NOT expect

@DamkerngT. They didn't write it themselves.

Damkerng T.

09:01

TIL kerb is a real word!

V.V.

09:12

Hi.

Damkerng T.

Hi!

Damkerng T.

12:22

1

Q: When to use Who vs What

I teach ELL students and have found conflicting information with respect to "Who" vs "What" Please help determine if one or both of these statements are correct: A) Who are they? They're musicians. B) What are they? They're musicians.

word-usage

I think the answers are going to be interesting!

If they're going to be textbook-like, or insightful? I'm curious!

(I wish the OP had included What do they do?, but maybe they just took the question from their textbook.)

Usernew

13:30

@CowperKettle hmmm......................I would love to! But sadly we don't make that great dark comedy movies, but if you want some other genres of comedy, then I've got some titles :D

@CowperKettle en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Belly_%28film%29

Do check the rating before watching :)

if you are interested :)

CowperKettle

13:49

@Usernew - thank you, I've added it to "to watch" at IMDB!

PhMgBr

15:12

Anyone here?

@Dam king?

I was thinking about writing a canon. question for when a subj.aux inversion should happen and when it shouldn't.

It's only the problem of so many learners.

If we listed common learner grammar mistakes, I'm pretty sure in the A2-B2 level, wrong subj.aux. inversions (being where they shouldn't be and not being where they should be) takes one of the top three places.

So that would mean no matter how long the answer is, it would be a very useful addition to the site.

PhMgBr

15:26

@DamkerngT. BURN ALL THE TRIPODS

Wow what a downpour.

Pretty heavy.

TV signals are already out.

Anonymous

16:20

That'll be tricky.

CowperKettle

17:13

> This page describes the reactions between alkanes and cycloalkanes with the halogens fluorine, chlorine, bromine and iodine - mainly concentrating on chlorine and bromine.

This is probably a malformed sentence.

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Why do you think so? With?

Anonymous

@V.V. Aww :-) I just saw your image! Thank you!

CowperKettle

@snailplane The page does not describe reactions between alkanes and cycloalkanes

It discusses reactions separately for the first (with halogens, etc) then for the second group of chemicals.

Anonymous

I understood it as talking about reactions between [alkanes/cycloalkanes] and [halogens].

CowperKettle

In reality, it is between alkanes and halogens, and then between cycloalkanes with halogens.

There are two parts in the narrative.

Anonymous

17:20

Yes!

Anonymous

That is how I understood it.

CowperKettle

So the sentence is not malformed? Okay.

Man_From_India

@snailplane u changed ur name? R u boat, right? Or new one? :-)

Anonymous

I think that, strictly speaking, with that structure with should be and, but then it would be difficult to tell the difference between the superordinate and subordinate ands.

Anonymous

If that makes sense.

Anonymous

17:21

It does seem like it's not quite grammatical.

Anonymous

I think rather than changing one word, though, a good editor would come up with another way to phrase the sentence.

CowperKettle

Exactly. I would rewrite the sentence.

Anonymous

@Man_From_India I was petitioned to become snailhovercraft at one point, but I have yet to do so :-)

Man_From_India

:O

Anonymous

@CowperKettle I still think that for to infinitive of purpose is very interesting!

CowperKettle

17:26

@snailplane Yes, it's very interesting... I'm busy reading other stuff, sadly. (0:

Man_From_India

As a boat, u always reminded me of an old Disney cartoon. It was probably produced during 40's. It's a cartoon about Noah's Arc. I roughly remember the cartoon. But i remember an old man bringing all the animals into a boat. You may find it on YouTube.

Anonymous

It was a productive construction in Early Middle English through Early Modern English, but it's archaic today. Could the writer have been using an archaic construction on purpose? Or is it dialectal?

CowperKettle

@snailplane I'm sure he used it on purpose.

It gives a "vernacular" feeling.

Anonymous

@CowperKettle Well, I don't mean to say that it wasn't on purpose either way, but was it intentionally archaic or part of the speaker's vernacular, I wonder?

CowperKettle

Phil Ochs was a good poet.

Anonymous

17:27

I would bet he picked it up from reading older poetry.

CowperKettle

@snailplane I'm not in a position to judge. I guess he was very educated.

Anonymous

To my ear, the for to infinitive sounds quite fancy :-)

Anonymous

Oops, I wrote it backwards!

CowperKettle

Even Woody Guthrie, who was presenting himself as a hillbilly, was a bookworm in his youth. Partly, of course.

PhMgBr

@snailplane Of course. Getting every canon. done right is tricky.

Man_From_India

17:28

@snailplane I want to ask u why u find tge apple was given him grammatical. But i think u r already in the middle of another discussion. Please ping me later :-)

CowperKettle

"A good time was had by all"

(0:

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Well, I believe that the dative alternation gives a valid source for the passive both with and without to, but due to the complexity principle, speakers usually produce the version with to when it's passive.

Anonymous

So in my case, I'd accept either version, but I'd only produce the version with to.

Anonymous

And in general the version with to is much more common today.

Anonymous

I expect you can still find some examples without, though.

Anonymous

17:32

Does that help?

Anonymous

Some speakers may have a preference that's so strong they also reject examples without to from other speakers.

Anonymous

I find it grammatical without to personally but I think not everyone does.

Anonymous

Maybe that's the missing puzzle piece I should have mentioned first?

PhMgBr

@Man_From_India Because it's grammatical?

Man_From_India

@snailplane hmm not quite. But I feel without to there is some link missing. Can you please give some examples. I'm on mobile. My wifi connection is gone from yesterday :(

Anonymous

17:44

@Man_From_India Well, especially in older writing, you can find lots of examples.

Anonymous

I think that today most people favor adding to.

Anonymous

But I expect you can find some examples in writing. Just a moment.

Anonymous

> He struggled to kindle a spark of rebellion, to resist this fate, but fatigue and whatever narcotic had been given him for the pain muffled his fire. He just wanted to sleep.

Anonymous

> Howard hands Curtin a gold nugget that has been given him by his Indian hosts and tells him to drop it into the village well.

Anonymous

> When he finished dressing he washed his face and hands in the bowl and dried himself with the towel that had been given him at his bath a few days before. He took his toothbrush from his vest pocket and lathered some soap on it.

Anonymous

17:50

> There were also two stuffed bears, which she'd named Alphonse and Gaston, and a frayed quilt, which had been given her when she was born.

Anonymous

These are all from COCA.

Anonymous

Without to, they sound more formal or bookish, I think.

Anonymous

In spontaneous speech, I would expect people to favor to rather heavily.

Anonymous

But I don't think we can really make a claim that the version without to is ungrammatical.

Man_From_India

18:03

Thanks @snailplane

PhMgBr

Thanks @snailplane

Anonymous

19:12

@Man_From_India I wrote an answer.

Anonymous

19:39

0

A: Is the preposition necessary in this sentence? What is the reason why we should use preposition?

Short answer You should use to. The other version isn't wrong, though. Long answer There are two ways to say the basic sentence: I gave an apple to him. I gave him an apple. And as a result, there are two passive sentences, too: An apple was given to him (by me). An apple was ...

Anonymous

And I've already found two mistakes I needed to fix! I'm the world's worst proofreader :-)

Anonymous

Anyone see any other problems?

Anonymous

I think I've got it fixed now.

Damkerng T.

22:01

@snailplane I upvoted the answer, but!

I don't think it's that rare!

> archive.org/details/tv?q=been%20given%20him

There are several positive results on the first page.

(Not sure about the quality of the transcription, though, but I'd think that many of them are really been given him.)

@PhMgBr Go for it!

@PhMgBr Oh, how often do you get a heavy rain?

BTW, @snail plane, you can fly now!

Damkerng T.

22:18

2

Q: Go Figure – Are They Infinitives?

They heat the water to make the tea hot, then they put ice in it to make it cold, then they put lemon in it to make it sour, and then they put sugar in it to make it sweet. Go figure. The sentence is from the dictionary. I vaguely understand the meaning which can be expressed differently dep...

idioms infinitive

Hmm...

Is there any infinitive in there (Go figure)?

I guess that there are several explanations, but I take it as (You) go (and) figure.

3

Q: I rounded all the numbers vs. I rounded all numbers

Which of these two is correct? "I rounded all the numbers for my calculations" or "I rounded all numbers for my calculations". Or is there a better way to say that I rounded the results of my calculations.

articles determiner

Whether or not the OP knows it, I think of 8 possible alternatives (actually 16, but let's say all of the X and all the X are equivalent) right out.

Oh, I just noticed that they used past tense (rounded).

That hints at a more limited scope of thought.

> I rounded {all numbers/all the numbers} for/in my calculations/calculation.

Anonymous

22:47

@DamkerngT. I think it is pretty rare in spontaneous speech.

Anonymous

What counterexamples do you see on that page?

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I spotted many of been given him in the results.

Argh! Why can't I copy and paste from the search results?!

> ... and no food for him and it's been a rough weekend and i've been given him table scraps and it's been a long weekend for him. (Note: they use no cases in their transcripts.)

> ... as chaos engulfed the ship. it had been given him by his fiancEe and was returned to her after his death. it's been decades ...

Hmm... the first example is a false positive!

> , and that check had been given him was dated for either that day or the next day ...

Hmm... some givings are transcribed as givens!

> ... think he needed a big deal, number one for the economic benefit it would have been given him, but also because he could have proven that he did do something on the deficit.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That one is been giving.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That one is probably not spontaneous speech.

Damkerng T.

nods -- It's the first example that I noticed that several givens are probably givings!

Anonymous

22:58

@DamkerngT. That one sounds like it could be. You'd need to look at the context for each clip to decide if it's spontaneous speech or not.

Anonymous

I'd expect most of them to be rehearsed or scripted.

Damkerng T.

Quite possibly

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. This one too doesn't look much like spontaneous speech.

Anonymous

We can check a corpus of spontaneous speech.

Anonymous

I have access, but I can't do it right this second.

Damkerng T.

23:04

archive.org/details/…

It's definitely spontaneous, but I'm not that sure now if he said given him or given to him!

One big problem with TV News is that the transcripts and the videos are not very well aligned.

After listening to that part a few more times, I'm quite sure that he said givna him.

So, it's a false positive!

Damkerng T.

23:22

This one is really spontaneous (probably rehearsed a little?):

24 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

> ... think he needed a big deal, number one for the economic benefit it would have been given him, but also because he could have proven that he did do something on the deficit.

archive.org/details/…

Overall, I think most of the supposed to be positive results aren't really positive because the transcripts are not very accurate.

> ... but it was nowhere near the description that has been given him. my husband did have ...

> archive.org/details/…

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That one's a speech error, though.

Anonymous

It's not grammatical.

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Wait, maybe it was the transcription. Let me recheck it.

Anonymous

Oh, true, I didn't check the audio. I can't do that right now.

Anonymous

So I was trusting that the transcription was accurate when I said that.

Damkerng T.

23:37

> ... think he needed a big deal, number one for the economic benefit that would have been given him, but also because he could have proven that he did do something on the deficit.

I've found only 2 real results so far (out of 6, so 4 are false positives).

Anonymous

I wouldn't be surprised to see some real results, particularly in formal contexts.

Damkerng T.

nods -- The contents on TV News are, well, news! (Of course!)

Anonymous

I think it's well attested enough that we have to conclude it's grammatical.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

I've seen people claim otherwise!

Damkerng T.

23:42

Hah!

Anonymous

But I think it's really a matter of relative frequency.

Damkerng T.

That works much better for me.

Transcript for