Language Overflow

Anonymous

23:00

quarplet.com/hamstergirl.jpg ← It says this is "a cat is standing on the floor."

Anonymous

m7.i.pbase.com/g4/36/973336/2/139102917.5rbsaTGc.jpg ← This is "a cat sitting on a rock."

Anonymous

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/… ← "I think it's a bird is eating a banana."

Anonymous

pbs.twimg.com/media/CgAdAQ8WwAAYwqH.jpg:large ← "I am not really confident, but I think it's a small bird on a tree. "

Anonymous

So it thinks Eurasian harvest mice are birds.

Man_From_India

@snailboat That's what I had thought, before I saw similar sentences. For example : I feel like Chinese food.

Damkerng T.

23:02

Everything that looks a bit like a cat becomes a cat!

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Ah, that's different, though.

Anonymous

I feel like Chinese food. = 'I would like to eat Chinese food right now.'

Anonymous

But you can't use I feel like spring in that sense.

Anonymous

I mean, unless you're in a situation where you get to pick a season.

Man_From_India

Yes true it's very unlikely.

Anonymous

23:04

Then it could have that meaning, but that's restricted to fairly unlikely contexts.

Anonymous

I feel like spring could certainly be appropriate in certain contexts with certain meanings, but out of context it seems kind of hard to interpret.

Anonymous

People don't say things like that very often.

Man_From_India

Then I don't feel like Friday is also similar.

Anonymous

I find that sentence very difficult to interpret.

Anonymous

It might be possible in the right context, though.

Man_From_India

23:06

Strangly JR commented under that answer stating his approval for those sentences.

Anonymous

"What day do you want to go to the park? How about Friday?" "I don't feel like Friday. Maybe Thursday?" "Thursday's good. Let's go Thursday."

Anonymous

But out of context, who knows what I don't feel like Friday means?

Anonymous

It's unclear.

Anonymous

In real life, utterances always occur in some sort of context.

Man_From_India

Yes right.

Damkerng T.

23:07

I guess saying "I feel like X" when X is a noun, a gerund, and a clause, could be tricky even among native speakers. I mean, it seems like it could mean different things for different groups of speakers.

Anonymous

And we use that context to interpret them. Asking a question about an utterance in a vacuum can be rather confusing for everyone involved.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I suppose that's possible.

Damkerng T.

Especially when it's out of context.

Anonymous

To understand it, we have to invent a context for it.

Anonymous

Humans don't do understanding without context.

Anonymous

23:08

It's just not how our brains work.

Anonymous

So if an utterance could have different meanings in different contexts, and it's presented without context, it's entirely plausible that two different speakers would understand it different ways because they think of different uses of that utterance.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

And it's also plausible that a third would outright reject the utterance if this third speaker can't think of a use without being given a context.

Anonymous

Over on Japanese.SE, we get questions like this every day:

Anonymous

0

Q: could someone please help me translate "創造現実盲信"

I've been trying to translate 創造現実盲信 (Souzou genjitsu moushin) but I really don't know what it means at all. Thank you!

translation

Anonymous

23:12

No context, no research effort, just "please tell me what this means in English" . . .

Damkerng T.

At least they could've tried Google Translate!

Anonymous

We don't count Google Translate as research effort on Japanese.SE :-)

Damkerng T.

Okay! :-)

Anonymous

Actually,

Anonymous

It's not uncommon for people to approach professional translators with a machine-translated text and to tell them to "fix it up" . . .

Anonymous

23:14

Although these days, it's more and more common to hope people will do the translation for free on the internet.

Anonymous

Japanese.SE isn't intended to be a translation service.

Anonymous

-2

Q: How to ask questions in Japanese?

How to write the followoing in Japanese: 1) How many languages do you speak at home? 2) How many languages do you speak? 3) What is your spouse's (husband or wife's) nationality?

translation

Man_From_India

1

Q: Meaning of 'to break down the barriers'

From the article: It still remained a mystery why it had happened. There was a wall of secrecy surrounding the whole affair which it was virtually impossible to break through. One reporter on the local paper however was determined to break down the barriers and get to the bottom of th...

meaning-in-context phrasal-verbs

Anonymous

You can imagine that if they put these things into Google Translate and included them in their question, it wouldn't really improve the question . . .

Anonymous

@Man_From_India I upvoted that question! :-)

Man_From_India

23:15

If it's a phrasal verb. I am not sure :-(

Anonymous

Well, we can say

Anonymous

to break down [the barriers]

Anonymous

to break [the barriers] down

Anonymous

And the meaning is somewhat non-compositional.

Man_From_India

Initially I thought it was, but now I doubt. Then I think I don't know what exactly is a phrasal verb.

Anonymous

23:17

So we could probably get away with calling it a verb-particle idiom (a type of "phrasal verb").

Anonymous

@Man_From_India Good point. What exactly is a phrasal verb, exactly?

Anonymous

First, let's talk about compositionality.

Damkerng T.

The first answer (on my screen) is strange. "break down" = cease to function. Huh?

Anonymous

When we put words together like "go across the street", we can often figure out the meaning by looking at the meaning of each word: go and across both have their usual meanings.

Anonymous

This is called "compositional" meaning. We can figure out the meaning from the individual parts that make up the sentence.

Anonymous

23:19

But idioms are "non-compositional". If I say you're "barking up the wrong tree", there's some meaning assigned to that entire phrase.

Anonymous

We can start with those as basic ideas.

Anonymous

But in real life, it's often better to view this as an axis: compositional meaning on on end, non-compositional meaning on the other.

Anonymous

In other words, I'm saying a phrase can be somewhat idiomatized.

Anonymous

That is, it can be somewhat harder to figure out the meaning from looking at the constituent parts.

Anonymous

If we look at it this way, there isn't always a firm distinction between idiom and non-idiom.

Anonymous

23:22

Next, let's talk about grammar.

Anonymous

Idioms can have specialized grammar.

Anonymous

Verb-particle idioms are an example of this kind.

Anonymous

> I turned [the light] on.

Anonymous

> I turned on [the light].

Anonymous

Here, the meaning is assigned to the combination of the verb turn and the particle on.

Anonymous

23:23

That's why I call this a "verb-particle idiom".

Anonymous

on the light is not a preposition phrase; we can tell because on can appear after the light.

Anonymous

So we call it a "particle" instead.

Anonymous

In this context, "particle" refers to a kind of intransitive preposition ("adverb" in traditional grammar) which can appear before the direct object, but can also appear after the direct object.

Anonymous

Unless the direct object is an unstressed personal pronoun:

Anonymous

> I turned [it] on.

Anonymous

23:25

> *I turned on [it].

Anonymous

This is one kind of "phrasal verb".

Anonymous

Another kind is the verb-preposition idiom:

Anonymous

When turn on means 'betray; become hostile towards', on is a transitive preposition.

Anonymous

> His friends turned [on him].

Anonymous

Here, on him is a preposition phrase. On can't move to the end of the sentence.

Anonymous

23:29

But turn on is a verb-particle idiom in the sense 'arouse':

Anonymous

> His friends turned [him] on.
> *His friends turned on [him].

Anonymous

The meaning is completely different!

Anonymous

(Sorry for the lurid example :-)

Anonymous

So we can see that each meaning of turn on has its own grammar.

Anonymous

A "phrasal verb", then, is an idiom in which meaning is assigned to a combination of a verb and at least one constituent (generally a transitive or intransitive preposition), and each of these combinations has its own specific grammar.

Anonymous

23:32

A lot of different terminology has been used to describe these constructions.

Anonymous

But I use terms like "verb-preposition idiom" and "verb-particle idiom" because I believe they communicate most clearly what these things are.

Anonymous

What counts as a phrasal verb?

Anonymous

We have two criteria here: ① idiomaticity (non-compositionality) and ② grammar associated with that idiomatic meaning.

Anonymous

The commenters and answerers are unsure that break down is really a phrasal verb because they think it's failing criterion ①.

Anonymous

They think you can figure out the meaning from looking at the constituent parts.

Anonymous

23:37

But compositionality isn't necessarily clear-cut. Most phrases are compositional to an extent. When does something become an "idiom"?

Anonymous

Is traffic light an idiom? There's a specific semantic relationship between traffic and light, but it's not specified grammatically.

Anonymous

Yet you know more than those two words would imply on their own. When you hear the word traffic light, you probably picture something like this: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/…

Anonymous

It's not entirely compositional.

Anonymous

But it's not entirely opaque, either. It's clearly a light used for the purposes of directing traffic.

Anonymous

So when we talk about compositionality, we have to consider it a cline.

Anonymous

23:40

Something can be more compositional or less compositional. We can't necessarily put everything into neat "idiom" and "not an idiom" boxes.

Anonymous

Is break down compositional? Well, we form new phrasal verbs in English sometimes, which means that certain patterns of phrasal verbs must be at least partially compositional.

Anonymous

And up and down do have associated patterns of usage in forming new phrasal verbs, although it can be difficult to describe exactly how they work.

Anonymous

So to some extent, they're right. You can figure out the meaning to some extent from looking at the words break and down.

Damkerng T.

IMHO, this break down can be broken down into two words.

Anonymous

But I don't think you need to disqualify them from the set of "phrasal verbs" on those grounds. I think it's at least partially opaque, too; and this example clearly fits the grammar pattern of the "verb-particle idiom".

Anonymous

23:42

@DamkerngT. Ah, I was wondering if your cat was typing :-)

Anonymous

So from a practical point of view, I think it's best to include it in that category, even if the meaning is somewhat compositional.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I got cat fingers! :-)

Anonymous

After all, we need to account for the alternation between break down the barriers and break the barriers down somehow.

Anonymous

I'm not saying it has to be by classifying it as a phrasal verb, of course. How would you like to account for the alternation?

Anonymous

Here's the relevant sense of break down from the Oxford Phrasal Verbs dictionary:

Anonymous

23:47

> to destroy or remove something, especially a problem or an attitude or opinion that somebody has: Our aim is to break down barriers that exist between teachers and parents.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I don't like the definition much. It complicates things further.

Anonymous

Oh, I thought it was good.

Damkerng T.

It's correct, definitely.

But it doesn't simplify things.

Anonymous

At any rate, after saying all that, I think the simplest analysis is to include it in the verb-particle idiom category.

Anonymous

Which means I disagree with the comments and answers that say it's not a phrasal verb.

Damkerng T.

23:49

nods

Anonymous

I do admit that the idiom is somewhat transparent.

Anonymous

I forgot to define transparent and opaque. I'm using them here to mean "the meaning can be figured out by looking at the parts that make up the idiom" and "the meaning cannot be figured out in this way"

Anonymous

So in other words, as synonyms of compositional and non-compositional.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. By the way, one reason I don't use the term "phrasal verb" is that I don't think they form phrases (in the technical linguistic sense). I always consider them separate words.

Anonymous

But I assume here you're talking about breaking it down in terms of meaning.

Anonymous

23:53

I think that's a defensible point of view, even though as I said I think it's only somewhat compositional myself.

Damkerng T.

Yes, I really thought that way.

Anonymous

By the way, sometimes people say "verb-particle construction" and "verb-preposition construction".

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