Language Overflow

Man_From_India

10:46

1

Q: "May I know what the status of my application is" or "May I know what is the status of my application?"

Which should be the correct sentence? I think the latter is the correct one, while my friend picks the former.

I know that the following is more common -

> May I know what the status of my application is?

But the other sentence is not by any means incorrect.

> May I know what is the status of my application?

But those anser chooses one over the other, on the ground of correctness.

Is my understanding wrong?

Damkerng T.

I think you've answered a similar question once. Not sure if I'm right.

Anyway, the crook of the question is, what kind of answer would you expect when someone asked, "What is the status of my application?"

Answering that with "Good is the status of my application" is odd.

So I think most speakers would read "May I know what is the status of my application?" as ungrammatical.

Man_From_India

11:11

Yes that is also true.

Mmmm yes I did one recently.

Damkerng T.

Ah! I meant crux not crook!

CowperKettle

11:32

good afternoon all and @V.V.!

Damkerng T.

Good afternoon!

tchrist

11:51

Hi @DamkerngT. I think this questioner may be Thai, a language known for interpreting aspiration in consonants as phonemically distinguishing in ways that English never does. He is utterly convinced that these are "different" sounds and that therefore this matters and he should be able to read about it.

0

Q: Why /t/ after /k/ sometimes is pronounced like a mild aspirated T but sometimes is pronounced like unaspirated T?

See this word: doctor /ˈdɑːktər/, the /t/ in this case seems to be like a mild aspirated T (that is there may have a bit air coming out of your mouth) Source. But expected /ɪkˈspektɪd/, the /t/ in this case seems to be like an unaspirated T (that is there is no air coming out of your mouth) Sou...

pronunciation phonology phonetics

The rest of us are having little luck in convincing him, so I wondered whether you might have any insights to share here.

skill patrol

I'm sure @DamkerngT. will set him straight ;-)

tchrist

You know, the word straight is a nicely illustrative example of this issue; think of how many ways it can be said all the while remaining the same word.

skill patrol

Indeed.

Damkerng T.

Looking...

Yes, he sounds like a Thai.

I think it's fair that he may find the differences phonetically, even though those differences have no significance phonemically. (I haven't checked his "Source" examples yet, due to my internet connection.)

skill patrol

12:06

wassup with your internet connection these days?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure. Maybe it's my router.

skill patrol

yup, the router is always a good place to start imo

Damkerng T.

None of my routers I've ever used last longer than two years since I switched to wi-fi combo ones.

It's about a year and a half already, so maybe it's about time.

skill patrol

me too

perhaps you need a booster

Damkerng T.

I mostly use cheap ones anyway. (^_^)

Hmm... I think the problem is all over. (This one handles LAN, WLAN, and ADSL, all-in-one.)

Huh? @Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ and @skill patrol in the same room at the same time!

skill patrol

12:13

:D

Sᴋᴜʟʟ ᴘᴇᴛʀᴏʟ

:D

Damkerng T.

:D

skill patrol

please ask me to leave if i ever start talking to myself :P

Damkerng T.

I'll keep that in mind!

@tchrist I've checked the pronunciation given in the dictionary he links to, both in BrE and AmE. I think he misheard those aspirated /t/s as unaspirated /t/s.

tchrist

Oh I see.

English Dictionaries don't indicate aspiration; it's not phonemic.

Damkerng T.

12:25

On the other hand, his unaspirated pronunciation is really unaspirated. (He pronounced it like a /d/ or a flap-/t/ at best.)

This makes me think that maybe introducing a concept of aspirated vs. unaspirated to learners could be a bit risky. It could make the learners think that a sound must be either aspirated or unaspirated, and there is nothing between. So, when a learner doesn't hear the aspirated quality in a specific example well, they could simply think that it's unaspirated.

Damkerng T.

14:11

2

Q: Differences between pronouncing the 'G' and 'J' in US/British English

I'm currently pronouncing: g as /dgi/ j as /djay/ I'm not sure if this is the American or Britisch way to pronounce it. If it depends on the choice of words, I was just singing the alphabet. Question: I was wondering what is the correct way of pronouncing these letters in American English an...

american-english pronunciation british-english letters

Isn't it supposed to be easy to get the answer by looking them up in dictionaries?

I'm not sure, but maybe it's not that obvious for some people.

CowperKettle

14:23

Finally prepared my bicycle.. too lazy to ride today.

Good evening, @DamkerngT.!

Damkerng T.

Aww

Good evening!

CowperKettle

And there's a picture of my cat Nelson on the wall.

(0:

Damkerng T.

Say hello to Nelson for me!

CowperKettle

I will! My greatest regards to Hagu!

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

CowperKettle

14:25

Good evening, @Man_From_India!

Shubh sundhyaa!

Damkerng T.

That sounds almost like Sanskrit!

Man_From_India

Good evening @Kettle

CowperKettle

nods

Man_From_India

It's the same in both hindi n bengali :-)

Damkerng T.

Does "Shubh" sound more like "suhb" or "suhbha"?

user62015

14:30

@DamkerngT. @Man_From_India Hi! Is there any difference between these two words examine or examine?

Damkerng T.

I think you spelled examine twice.

Man_From_India

Hehe

Damkerng T.

:D

user62015

@DamkerngT. @Man_From_India Sorry, hehehehe, examinee or examine?

Damkerng T.

Examine is a verb; examinee is a noun for someone who is examined.

user62015

14:39

@DamkerngT. Thanks.

Damkerng T.

No problem. :-)

Man_From_India

14:58

> in the lowest depth a deeper still

This is from chapter 2 Oliver Twist

Upon searching a bit on Internet, it seems to have a reference to Milton's Paradise Lost.

What does that mean?

CowperKettle

15:54

Space Cats — Magic Fly

►

Enjoyker — All About The Rain (feat. Teresa Mannion)

►

(0Ж

Damkerng T.

17:36

5

Q: "People with messy handwriting have brain working faster than their hands" Why no determiner?

I've found the following meme/caption/poster/whatever-it's-called on Twitter and I don't get why there's no determiner before "brain". I would normally assume it is one of those situations where you just don't need one but there is a determiner before "hands". I mean, I would either use a determi...

determiner

Interesting

It can be tricky sometimes whether to choose to use the plural or singular form.

Happy Thai New Year (Songkran) 2016!

Damkerng T.

18:31

Word of the Day: tent-pole

Good morning, @snailboat!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. おはよう〜

Damkerng T.

^^

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. สงกรานต์มีความสุข 2016!

Damkerng T.

Hehe! Thank you!

ขอบคุณครับ

สุขสันต์วันสงกรานต์!

CowperKettle

@DamkerngT. Happy New Year, Dam!

Damkerng T.

18:39

Happy New Year!

CowperKettle

> Both of these terms matter, but the fall in lattice enthalpy is the more important. This falls because the ions are getting bigger.

"is the more important"?

Should'nt it be "is the more important one"?

or simply "is more important", without "the"?

Either is fine. ............ — TRomano 1 min ago

"is the more important" without any noun looks strange.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think "is more important" is more conventional. Maybe "is the more important" is the less conventional. :P

CowperKettle

Sorry for having to trouble you with such petty things on New Year's eve. (0:

Anonymous

@CowperKettle I think I agree with you to an extent. I think "X is the more important." is grammatical and possible in the right context, but people would be more likely to say something like "X is the more important of the two." in spontaneous speech.

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Not at all!

Anonymous

18:48

I agree with Tim Romano that has fallen most and has fallen the most are both possible.

Damkerng T.

BTW, I'm trying to figure out why lots of people don't like Tomorrowland.

CowperKettle

0

Q: Use of article without (pro)noun: "Both of these terms matter, but the fall in lattice enthalpy is the more important"

From Chemguide: Both of these terms matter, but the fall in lattice enthalpy is the more important. This falls because the ions are getting bigger. Shouldn't it be either "is the more important one (of the two)" or "is more important"? This use of the definite article without any noun or p...

articles

@snailboat Interesting! I thought that the bare "most" was for descriptive uses, like "your answer is most kind"

Damkerng T.

PEU 356.5

CowperKettle

Thank you! I'll look it up after finishing the chapter on halide chemistry. (0:

Damkerng T.

My pleasure!

Ilan

18:57

hi guys

wozap

Damkerng T.

It's New Year!

Ilan

is there an expression "the problem will take in"?

Damkerng T.

@Ilan Not that I know of.

Ilan

hm

would you like to listen to 2sec rec?

Damkerng T.

My connection is not very stable right now, but sure, I can try.

Ilan

19:09

filetea.me/t1szLyVXsi6RsOSfbkbA8jLGg

did you get it?

Damkerng T.

Ah, I have to download it, I think. I'll need to get back to my computer.

CowperKettle

StoneyB wrote an interesting answer. I never knew he knows French.

1

A: Meaning of "One can't expect the son of a Girondin to be entirely free from the spice of the old leaven"?

It's a very clumsy translation from the French. The original is "One cannot be the son of a Girondin and not preserve a goût de terroir". A Girondin is literally an inhabitant of the Gironde, a region in western France; but during the Revolution a generation before the time at which this eps...

@Ilan I listened to it and could not discern anything.

Ilan

it is:

.... happy to see him again

....,dsfjgkjdsgjdfsgfd.... problem

..."take in????"

CowperKettle

Frankly, I re-listened several times, and it's just a jumble of sounds..

Ilan

nop

"i'll happy to see him again... if any problem... ??? take in???"

Damkerng T.

19:16

I amplified it (with volume=16.0), but it has too much noise.

CowperKettle

could it be "worth talking"?

Anonymous

I'll give it a listen when I get home.

Ilan

SLOW it

Damkerng T.

I think I'll need to listen to it on my headset.

CowperKettle

Maybe there's a larger chunk.

Damkerng T.

19:16

From what I heard, I'm not even sure if it's human.

Ilan

nop, all other parts I got

it is a human

Anonymous

Altering the speed of a recording can sometimes help, but it always introduces artifacts, and these can sometimes interfere

Ilan

Native :)

British

CowperKettle

"features ... problems .. worth taking" (0:

Ilan

futures

future

no feature

not "feature"

Anonymous

19:18

I can feed it into Melodyne, though. Melodyne is amazing :-)

Ilan

:)

what it is?

Anonymous

It can change the speed of audio in high quality.

Ilan

is it, sorry

Anonymous

It's a professional tool.

Ilan

I'd be happy if you can try

)

Damkerng T.

19:21

Okay, I'm in the chat room again.

Anonymous

Welcome back!

Damkerng T.

(The other browser is not responding right now.)

Maybe responsive is a better word, but anyway... :-)

Where are we now?

Anonymous

I think both probably work.

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

Anonymous

We were discussing an audio file, but I'm on my phone and I don't think I can listen to it yet.

Damkerng T.

19:24

On the first part, I'm not sure if it was Have I had to see him again or I'm happy to see him again. It's fast, it's noisy, and the recording is not very clear.

A context could be helpful, but there's none.

VLC also chopped off the first and the last bits. I think I should try it with something else.

FYI. It's a good idea to insert at least 0.3s of silence before and after the content of your audio file.

Ilan

The man says He will be happy to see someone again

if ....gibrish.....

Damkerng T.

I guess I lost the first few tenth-seconds in VLC.

Ilan

the girbrish at the end I cannot understand

Damkerng T.

I don't think he says, He will be happy to see someone again.

Ilan

He says "I'll be happy to see him again"

or I'm happy

Damkerng T.

19:30

That's possible. The former.

Ilan

yep

"I'll be happy to see him again" - I am 99% convinced

Damkerng T.

I think there is problem and tonight, but I couldn't make out the rest.

Ilan

the problem is the end of the sentence

not tonight

for sure

Damkerng T.

I think tonight comes before problem.

Ilan

the meaning is "if he has any problem"

not tonight not anything else

I'll be happy to see him again in future if any problem/s will? take? in?

in future

Damkerng T.

19:35

I don't like to listen to the latter part repeatedly, mostly because of those two smacks (impact noises).

Ilan

hm, there is a noise after the sentence ends

but not in the middle

I can cut it :)

filetea.me/t1se1zAXsDyQ7uVxu79Q8PIXw

normalised

much better imho

I hear "problemS" clearly

Damkerng T.

My best guess right now (which I don't think really right): And I'm happy to see him again with you tonight. I promise it's over.

Ilan

nooo

%)

Damkerng T.

shrug

Ilan

no any tonight

instead tonight there is ANY

ANY PROBLEMS

Damkerng T.

19:43

No context. Lots of noise. This is the best I can do.

And don't force any word on my listening unless you got the whole thing right. ;-)

Ilan

context - "I solved his problem, but if he need me again - I'll be happy to see him"

Damkerng T.

Before or after this. Is this from a movie, a video clip, or something?

Ilan

real conversation

Damkerng T.

If he need me again is ungrammatical, I think.

Ilan

you're right, it was just explanation

not the phrase in the wav

Damkerng T.

19:46

So you probably know a lot more about the context than me. For example, you think tonight is impossible because it may not make sense in the context.

But to me, it's perfectly okay.

I've solved the problem, but if he thinks there still is a problem, let's meet him tonight. Something like that.

Ilan

this is why I say you %)

no any chance for "tonight"

it is ANY

Damkerng T.

See? Context, context, context. :D

Ilan

see - like examine

Damkerng T.

Examine what?

Ilan

the man

Anonymous

20:08

We do use context, usually without realizing it, when we listen to natural language.

Ilan

hm

this is the context

I'll be happy to meet this guy again if he needs me

that's all

Anonymous

I can't open the file on my phone

Anonymous

Context means everything said before and shortly after, along with the entire situation the utterance occurs in.

Ilan

which format would you like to get?

Anonymous

And possibly any relevant knowledge shared by the speaker and listener

Anonymous

20:14

That format should be fine when I get home I think :-)

Ilan

mp3

?

filetea.me/t1s06qykbiQQFyK779DsfE4Lg

Damkerng T.

The problem is not the format, Ilan. The site you uploaded the clip to doesn't allow us to play the clip on our devices.

Ilan

the file should be downloaded

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Would you like to try it on your phone now? (You can always say no, of course.)

Anonymous

In general, a format which preserves the audio exactly (WAV, AIFF, FLAC, etc.) is best for listening.

Anonymous

20:17

I'm in no hurry :-)

Damkerng T.

@Ilan When we are on our phones, we don't expect to download any clips; we just want to play it.

I see. :-)

Ilan

do you know any resource which can play it?

in such a way?

Damkerng T.

You can try Google Drive.

Do you use Gmail?

Ilan

will see

Damkerng T.

Maybe .mp3 on Google Drive is the safest bet for playability on all small devices.

Ilan

20:22

playing online

picosong.com/NtBp

:)

Anonymous

"I'll be happy to see you again in the future if there are any problems with talking"?

Ilan

forth talking?

Anonymous

Maybe other

Anonymous

I don't know what forth talking means, so it doesn't sound very likely

Anonymous

Also, since you told me what you thought it said, I was primed to hear that.

Ilan

20:30

worth talking?

Anonymous

Yeah, I hear "any other problems with talking". Does "talking" make sense in context?

Anonymous

Since I don't have any context, I can't tell.

Ilan

hm

Anonymous

"Worth talking about" would make sense, assuming you cut off part of the sentence.

Ilan

I think it "worth talking"

ok, I'm done %)

Anonymous

20:31

If you didn't, it's unlikely since "worth talking" is ungrammatical.

Anonymous

So a native speaker wouldn't say it.

Ilan

yep

you r right

so, I am still in the same position. But anyway - thanks for trying

Anonymous

You can keep the context to yourself, but you're not likely to get many helpful responses that way.

Anonymous

I'm standing at a bus stop, so I'm kind of bored and I tried to answer anyway :-)

Anonymous

But you need to improve the quality of the question if you want to improve the quality of the answers.

Ilan

20:38

there is no any other context unfortunately

"the problem has solved, if the guy needs me again - I'll be happy to see him".

that's all

Customer and Manager

Damkerng T.

Who he is, what relationship he does have with you and others in the context, the occasion, the place, the time, and so on. These are contexts.

But it's true that native speakers usually require less of the context than non-native speakers.

For example, sometimes I can communicate with close folks with just "hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm-hmm" (say, I don't want to move my mouth because it hurts) and they still know what I want.

Anonymous

It is true that non-native speakers sometimes need more context than native speakers to hear something properly. It's also true that native speakers can usually use what context they have more effectively.

Anonymous

20:53

@DamkerngT. You can hum the melody of "I dunno" in English and people will know what you mean :-)

Ilan

in this case there is no any substantial meaningful context

in addition to what I've just explained $)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hmm-Hm-Hmm!

Ilan

will ask another native though %)

will see if other native can get it

Damkerng T.

The higher intelligibility of the speech (it's a technical term in speech/telecom communication), the less of the context we'll need to transcribe the speech.

Also, in general, we don't need all the words.

(I'm not talking only about English.)

Anonymous

@Ilan There were no words before or afterwards?

Anonymous

20:59

I can listen on my monitors now.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

If there were no words afterwards, worth isn't possible.

Damkerng T.

I wish I had a filter that can filter out impact noises.

Hmm... is it 'impulse noise'? Maybe both are in use.

Anonymous

Well, they wouldn't mean the same thing.

Anonymous

@Ilan You don't even know, for example, whether the speaker is likely to be talking about a third person ("him") or to the listener ("you")?

Ilan

21:04

hm

I do not have any words after the episode

I think the episode ends as in the file

The man is speaking about third person, I mean he use "HE"

Anonymous

Oh, the first link doesn't work anymore.

Ilan

speaking about the third person

Anonymous

I wanted to download that one now that I'm home :-)

Damkerng T.

Auto timeout?

Ilan

@snailboat so you can use the last one

Anonymous

21:06

@DamkerngT. Just a blank page.

Ilan

hm, I could open it just a minute ago

Anonymous

@Ilan Yeah, I know, but you cropped and amplified that one, right?

Ilan

yes

just a sec

Anonymous

I was hoping to get the file with as little processing as possible :-)

Anonymous

I made genmaicha!

Damkerng T.

21:07

Oh, it's a special kind of green tea!

Anonymous

The basic green tea I have is sencha.

Damkerng T.

"popcorn tea", they say! LOL

Anonymous

I bought two more of the big bags of sencha because they're cheap and I like them :-)

Anonymous

This is matcha-iri genmai-cha.

Damkerng T.

抹茶入り玄米茶!

Anonymous

21:09

Yes!

Damkerng T.

米 is another character that I like! :D

Anonymous

Genmai is brown rice, so matcha-iri genmai-cha is 'brown rice tea with matcha'.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's used to refer to America!

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see! It's the sound!

Anonymous

Yes.

Ilan

21:12

filetea.me/t1s3h63v55kSnOF9mo2FB0wxA

this is the file

no cut in the end

no filters

Anonymous

It does sound like worth.

Anonymous

Maybe they forgot to say about at the end . . . ?

Anonymous

> I'll be happy to see him again in the future if there are any other problems worth talking ~~about~~

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Traditionally, different countries all had their names written in Chinese characters, and they used those characters for their sound, not for their meaning.

Ilan

this is the message

Anonymous

21:17

And (in many cases) the first or second character of each came to be used to represent that country.

Ilan

@snailboat Thanks for your help %)

Anonymous

So for example 欧米 is おうべい 'Europe and America', because the sound of 欧 used to resemble part of the sound of 'Europe', and the sound of 米 used to resemble part of the sound of 'America' (the second syllable in this case).

Anonymous

@Ilan I'm sorry I can't be any more certain! That's the best I can do :-)

Ilan

i have other recordings, but I even do not know any context of them

I heard two women talking - did not understand anything :(

absolutely, thus I cannot provide any context... thus I even do not ask to hear the episode

Anonymous

This genmai-cha (brown rice tea) is really good! :-)

Ilan

21:20

but if you wanna try :)) this is the most weird English I heard

filetea.me/t1sFywS2U7QTtyN7hDE5u249w

I heard this conversation at the bus stop

I did not understand anything

something about some man

that's all I understood ;)

Anonymous

Now that I've slowed it down, I hear "I'll be happy to him again", which doesn't make any sense.

Anonymous

So it can't be quite right.

Anonymous

Maybe it's just "I'll be happy to again in the future if there are any other problems worth talking [about]"

Anonymous

Hmm, that doesn't seem right.

Anonymous

21:35

Oh well.

Ilan

:0

Damkerng T.

I think the quality of the recording is practically unacceptable.

I don't know if there is a free website to score the intelligibility index of an audio clip.

Anonymous

21:55

This tea is really good! :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think that's usually done using actual people.

Anonymous

We don't have a good model for how people hear yet.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yay!

Anonymous

We know a lot of things, but we're a long ways from being able to make a program listen the same way a human does.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I'm not absolutely sure, but I think I've seen a book about some algorithms to score this stuff. They may not be perfect, but they may be useful, at least somewhat, I suppose.

Anonymous

21:57

Oh, I assume you're right, but in that case it's just a proxy for the real thing.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

So you can call that intelligibility prediction rather than measurement, I think.

Anonymous

scholar.google.com/scholar?q=intelligibility+prediction

Damkerng T.

Thanks for the links!

Anonymous

This is an interesting error: as stupid as a reason as it is

Anonymous

22:05

At least, I assume it was a speech error.

Damkerng T.

It sounds like a reasonable error!

Anonymous

I would expect an AmE speaker to say as stupid a reason or as stupid of a reason (colloquially).

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure what you meant by "however it leads", but this "however" links the idea in this sentence (the whole sentence, not just the first or the second part) to the previous sentence. — Damkerng T. 18 mins ago

The sentence is:

> The apparent resilience of the current setup does not mean, however, that there is no room for these schemes to improve without compromising sustainability.

Now I wonder if I'm 100% correct.

Hmm... I think I was right.

Anonymous

22:20

Well, I think it's certainly the same however. I think the emphasis might change a bit. When I read the sentence with however in that position, I read it with stress on not.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Perhaps we can think of this one as a marked position.

Anonymous

I would say it's a fairly natural place for however to go.

Kurzd

23:00

All those questions about memorizing tenses were because of an English test I had. I gave up trying to comprehend all of them, and picking the answer that sounded the best was good enough.

That's going to blow up in my face eventually, isn't it?

Damkerng T.

Depends, perhaps. But generally, I think the more you're familiar with the language, the less you need those rules. And chances are your general grammatical sense of the language is mostly correct. So, if a test you're going to have doesn't happen to touch your weak spots, you'll probably be okay. (But you said you already had it.) Personally, I think real working/academic writing, except for the essays that you might have to write to please someone, is mostly easier than most exams.

Kurzd

23:20

That's...reasurring.

Damkerng T.

nytimes.com/2015/10/27/science/…

I missed that news. It sounds very scary!

Kurzd

23:36

Yikes.

Anonymous

23:57

@DamkerngT. You might find this interesting: jstor.org/stable/489539

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, it sounds very interesting right from the title!

Anonymous

You should be able to read it for free on JSTOR, but let me know if you have trouble and I can send you a PDF.

Transcript for