Language Overflow

Jim Reynolds

02:06

0

Q: What's the difference between having a 'terrible time', and having a 'very bad time'?

I need to explain the difference between having a 'terrible time', and having a 'very bad time' to non-native English speakers, but I expect these expressions to be used interchangeably. Is there a difference? How can I explain it in very basic language?

I'm having a very terrible time understanding why this is not a basic reference question. A look in any good dictionary should make clear that "terrible" means extremely bad. So, it's a more worser time.

Jim Reynolds

02:42

Though it's true that native speakers can make errors, it's rare that they'll make fundamental grammatical errors. I hope it wasn't a case of mishearing. – Damkerng T.

From ell.stackexchange.com/questions/78569/…

@Dam: Are you sure it's rare that native speakers rarely make fundamental grammatical errors? What's a grammatical error? Which are fundamental? O.O

Damkerng T.

That's an interesting question.

Which comes first, eggs or chickens?

I used "fundamental" as opposed to "marginal".

In my opinion, in a language, some utterances are clearly grammatical, some are clearly ungrammatical, and some are not very clear whether it's grammatical.

It's rare that native speakers will think a clearly grammatical sentence is ungrammatical, and vice versa.

So, in a way, writing "it's" as "its" or the other way around is not "fundamental".

(Because many native speakers of English seem to think of the two as the same thing, because of their sounds.)

Using "lie" for "lay" is also not "fundamental", because it's so easy to confuse one with another.

(I think this kind of thing has to be "learned" not "naturally acquired".)

Something fundamental: using they for animals and non-living things.

Something fundamental: homework is uncountable.

Jim Reynolds

Haha. We rarely make rare mistakes!

Damkerng T.

nods -- And make common mistakes more often. :D

Jim Reynolds

The sage has spoken!

Damkerng T.

Robot is no sage. :D

Jim Reynolds

02:57

Sages seem to know everything except that they are sagacious.

Damkerng T.

Where can we find those sages? In the woods, perhaps. :-)

Jim Reynolds

Well, is a question a duplicate if it exists on ELU?

On mountain peaks, where no one can bother them with stupid questions!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds No, and it's not because I think so, it's because we do so.

@JimReynolds LOL

I remember that I'd thought such a question should be a duplicate, too.

Jim Reynolds

That's an arresting utterance.

No, (not) because I think so . . . .

It crashes my native speaking OS.

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Maybe it might've sounded better if I used "but" instead.

Jim Reynolds

03:02

Something about polarity.

It's about how no (-) is combined with [someth. is] so (+).

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think I see your point.

Jim Reynolds

I think we essentially keep to No, it's not so or Yes, it's so.

Damkerng T.

"No, but it's not because I think it's not."

Jim Reynolds

Bingo!

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

Jim Reynolds

03:05

I guess we'd usually delete the first "it's".

Damkerng T.

nods

Jim Reynolds

:)

bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/everyday_writer/20errors

Damkerng T.

Ahh... comma is right at the top!

Jim Reynolds

Lists of "most common grammar errors" are ubiquitous. Often in popular publications with a fear-based hook: "How you can stop looking stupid!"

I didn't find anything that looks convincingly based on research yet, or that carefully defines error.

Well, I don't know if the above is research-based or not.

Is creating "vagueness" a grammatical error?

Damkerng T.

They try to make it sound like it's research-based for sure.

I don't think so.

But their scope is only for academic and professional writing, and they don't say that the errors are about grammar.

Jim Reynolds

03:13

Oh. Write.

ell.stackexchange.com/review/close/33163

@cat VtdTC because it's multiple questions. Are such dyskosher?

40

Q: One post with multiple questions or multiple posts?

I want to ask several questions about the same problem domain but each question is independent from the others. Should I put all the questions in a single post or should I split them and send multiple posts? Return to FAQ index

discussion support questions asking-questions faq-proposed

Catija

@JimReynolds If it's multiple questions about one specific topic, that's one thing... but these questions are completely different. There's definitely a rule that each question should be limited to one topic.

Jim Reynolds

Yes. The top-voted reason there makes sense, of course. How to pick the best answer out of a melange.

Damkerng T.

The title is "About Present Continuous and Simple Past", but the question is more like it's (my way) vs. (grammar way).

Jim Reynolds

hi @cat. Haven't seen your for several days.

Damkerng T.

(I'm not sure how the OP came up with their (grammar way), even.)

Catija

03:18

@DamkerngT. Not that I've not seen similar phrasings of it... "The book says this is right but I think this is right... why am I wrong?"

Jim Reynolds

I propose JimWay.se !

Damkerng T.

@Catija nods

Hmm... .se -- where is that?

Catija

@JimReynolds Yeah, I'm always around, though... so if you ever need anything, let me know.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... .se is for Sweden.

Jim Reynolds

Jim's way is Scandinavian!

I need my apartment cleaned.

Damkerng T.

03:21

I need to lose a few pounds.

Jim Reynolds

Have you seen those TV shows where a team goes out to a compulsive hoarder's home, or someone who lives in piles of filth? I'm heading for qualification.

Catija

@JimReynolds Oh no! That sounds bad. Time for a spring cleaning.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I've seen such a show from Japan!

Jim Reynolds

We need one of those charity fundraising online tools to help Dam convert some of himself to this: newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/…

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Jim Reynolds

03:23

Just one magnesium zinc alloy leg would lighten you considerably.

Well, I guess it's not "call the health department" bad, but I doubt it's as neat as was Martha Stewart's prison cell.

Damkerng T.

I've seen its dramatization once. Looked pretty neat!

(the prison, I mean)

Jim Reynolds

lol

OMG. We saw The Revenant last night!

Damkerng T.

That's new!

Jim Reynolds

I think it's extremely good, but not always easy to watch.

It was not a walk in the park.

Damkerng T.

The latest movie I watched is Fury. So I have no idea what The Revenant is about.

I guessed the ending wrong, though. I thought nobody would survive (in Fury).

Jim Reynolds

03:30

It's about a fur-trapper who barely survived a grizzly attack and made an incredible journey back from the wilderness.

Loosely based on a true story.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds That reminds me of 7 Years in Tibet!

Catija

Ugh. Why do people answer bad questions??? GRRRRR>

Jim Reynolds

Fury means to grab us hard from the first scene and never let go. Mission accomplished. Peter Travers·Rolling Stone

That's quite an endorsement.

Damkerng T.

(Perhaps 7 Years in Tibet meets The Grey)

Jim Reynolds

Means means intends there, which took me some Damcycles to get.

Damkerng T.

03:33

LOL -- a cycle is about 1.016 msec. :D

Jim Reynolds

It was only 3 cycles, but I swear it seemed more like 7!

@Cat needs to come and spend some time in one or both of our (largely) Buddhist nations here, Dam.

It's all about accepting that life is suffering. Like right now, my coffee is not hot enough and I'm going to need to microwave it. :'(

I accept that.

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Catija

Nah, I have my own mantra... the internet is full of stupid and there's no use trying to fix it.

Jim Reynolds

:D

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds It's your karma, that your coffee is not hot enough. (trying to sound like a monk :P)

Catija

03:38

... but that doesn't mean I can't complain a bit about it.

Jim Reynolds

We're here to validate you!

Stamps Catija.

I probably had someone beheaded for serving me warm coffee in a past life. I was a king, you know.

Catija

@JimReynolds Ouch!

Jim Reynolds

It only hurts for a while, Cat.

Catija

HA HA HA... I just got the joke.

Jim Reynolds

Since time immemorial, philosophers have pondered, Why do good people answer bad questions?

4

@Cat Jennifer is a good listener, if you ever need to complain when we're not here: a-i.com/show_tree.asp?id=115

Catija

03:44

Anyway, time for bed for me... have a great day you Eastern Hemisphere people!

Damkerng T.

Good night!

Jim Reynolds

Night!

Anonymous

05:10

@JimReynolds Native speakers tend to make errors of performance rather than errors of competence.

2

Anonymous

You might trip over your own tongue, put words together in a way you didn't mean to, or just type something that doesn't sound right to you when you look back at it.

Anonymous

But you can generally identify it as an error immediately and fix it.

Anonymous

It's not always that clear-cut.

Anonymous

But those sorts of errors are different from those made by learners who cannot identify them as errors, or who have a great deal of trouble doing so.

Anonymous

The errors generally aren't due to an insufficient mental model of the language, in other words.

Anonymous

05:16

(The idea that native speakers have perfect competence and make only performance errors is really something of an idealization, though. It doesn't really make sense if you look at it too closely.)

jimsug

05:28

@snailboat relevant, perhaps:

Four stages of competence

In psychology, the four stages of competence, or the "conscious competence" learning model, relates to the psychological states involved in the process of progressing from incompetence to competence in a skill. == HistoryEdit == Initially described as “Four Stages for Learning Any New Skill”, the theory was developed at Gordon Training International by its employee Noel Burch in the 1970s. It has since been frequently attributed to Abraham Maslow, although the model does not appear in his major works. The Four Stages of Learning provides a model for learning. It suggests that individuals ...

Usernew

06:04

interesting!

Penguins are funny/stupid

:D

Damkerng T.

11:00

@Usernew Poor thing!

Damkerng T.

11:38

What should we do if a frequent answerer appears to write run-on sentences regularly?

(regretting some of my upvotes...)

V.V.

11:59

@DamkerngT., can I ask a small question?

Damkerng T.

Sure!

V.V.

Thanks,if only my internet... We were driving all day. We were tired.vs.We were tired. We had been driving all day.What's the difference in usage?

Damkerng T.

There is no real difference in meaning, IMO. The latter just makes it a little clearer that they had been driving before the time "We were tired".

It can reflect the personality and thought process of the speaker (or the writer).

A related example: Hey, I did three things today. One in the morning, another at noon, and yet another in the evening vs. Hey, I did three things today. One in the evening, another at noon, and yet another in the morning.

V.V.

What's the function of we were tired?I clearly understand the second.It's a result.But Past Continuous, can it show a completed action?

Damkerng T.

The normal reading of We were tired would be state-like: at that moment, we felt tired.

Is it a result? Perhaps. But the sentence doesn't say so.

V.V.

12:13

During the driving?

Damkerng T.

Anything beyond literal meaning is interpretation, and we're all open to our own interpretation.

@V.V. No. I mean, it was at that point that "we were tired".

We were driving all day. We were tired could be used to mean that we were driving and tired all day at the same time, which is also a possible interpretation. (And again, we were tired at the time We were tired.)

All these ambiguities are typically either a) not important, or b) clear in the context which meaning the writer or the speaker wants.

V.V.

I dug deeper and found something in Past Simple with the meaning that the action was completed. But they gave another example. We drove all day. We covered 5 miles.

Damkerng T.

@V.V. The core sense of the past simple is what happened in the past (i.e., it's not in the present). So, for an event (which is roughly equivalent to "action") that happened in the past, it's fair to say that it was completed.

The trick is to know how to answer, what is "the past"? Where does "the past" end?

Time in tense is opinion-based; it's relative; it's not universal.

A similar tricky thing is "now". When does "now" begin? When does "now" end? How far can we go back in time and still consider it "now"? How far can we go into the future and still consider it "now"?

The thing is, IMO, if the speaker thinks it's "now", then it's "now". No matter when it is or was or will be.

V.V.

12:28

The girl's test had the following sentence. They...all day.Next morning they were tired.She wrote had been driving. But the answer was Past Continuous.

Damkerng T.

Did the book or the web page or the test suggest that any other answers are incorrect?

V.V.

I don't know. She asked me why.But I couldn't answer because I thought she was right.

Damkerng T.

I think it's relatively free choice.

BTW, when someone asks us such a question, we may need to ask for more context, because there may be more words in the test, or some other hints, like punctuation, available choices, and so on.

IMHO, language is not always black and white. And even most tests have to make it appear so (because they have to test the test takers), careful test makers would be aware of possible alternatives and avoid them when they design their tests.

I think designing tests is like cooking, or writing, or even speaking. Everyone can do it, or most everyone thinks they can do it, but not everyone can do it sufficiently well.

V.V.

There was only this set of two sentences.

Damkerng T.

nods -- And how did the test force the verb drive?

(It must have given some hints. Otherwise, we could answer something like They worked all day. Next morning they were tired.)

V.V.

12:41

I just thought about "the next morning ". It could be a succession of actions though.

I'll disappear for some time.Want to find the sentence.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Ping me when you're back.

Usernew

12:59

run-on sentences? where?

Poor thing? yes, but it's funny :D

@DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

@Usernew Well, I'd rather not say.

Usernew

You can tell me, I am a doctor.

if you tell me I can delete them

Damkerng T.

But it's probably not that hard to find.

Usernew

my latest post?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I didn't think of yours.

Do they have run-on sentences? :D

Usernew

13:02

you can tell me, I am a doctor :D

I don't know. That's the reason I was asking :D

How much is your internet speed?

Damkerng T.

People don't consult their doctors in chat rooms. :P

Depends. It's supposed to be at around 6 Mbps.

Usernew

:O

that's good speed?

Damkerng T.

How fast is yours?

Usernew

it's currently 3.1

I don't know if the dot was inserted intentionally or by mistake! :D

you out to have asked how slow is yours?

Ought

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Usernew

13:06

Come on! It's India! We don't get speed above 2MBBS

V.V.

@DamkerngT1. They felt tired that morning because they (drive) all night.

1) were driving
2) had been driving
3) had driven

19. I was tired. I (dig) all day.

1) had been digging
2) was digging
3) dug

Damkerng T.

Hmm... strange choices.

V.V.

@DamkerngT., I don't know how to pin

Damkerng T.

@V.V. Pin my message? It was just an observation. :D

My first impression was that the test was designed by a non-native speaker.

Usernew

you want to pin the question?

V.V.

13:11

So I can say "incorrect task", can't I?

Usernew

here's the page translate.google.co.in/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://…

Damkerng T.

@V.V. Incorrect task doesn't sound quite right to me. I guess you mean "a bad test".

V.V.

I mean "ambiguous ".

Damkerng T.

Hmm... ambiguous? Hmm... not quite right either.

BTW, the test makes me think of this:

Everything is so black and white in some tests. And to the poor cat, there is no line but vertical lines.

V.V.

I don't think I am completely stupid now.

Funny, but poor students are in the same situation sometimes. Thanks.for your help.

Usernew

13:20

yeah, poor cat. Subject cat

Damkerng T.

@V.V. My pleasure!

@Usernew I feel genuinely sorry for the cat, but they helped us understand how brains work better.

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Are brains working better? Mine isn't!

Usernew

what about rats?

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Understand better, I suppose! :D

Usernew

I feel sorry for the penguin. Sorry for cat < Sorry for penguin

Damkerng T.

13:24

(I think the simple past is more kosher. It looks like it was done in the 70's (or maybe earlier). I hope nobody repeats the study nowadays.)

StoneyB

Every cat I've ever known would just curl up and go to sleep in a situation like that. But then cats' brains do work better.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Usernew

Cats are very elusive creatures!

Damkerng T.

They're so nimble, too!

Usernew

dangerous too! but they are bigger :D

Caracals are very agile!

Damkerng T.

13:27

I have no big cat in my house. Only fat cats are allowed. :P

Usernew

hahaha

Look jumping Caracal Hunts a Bird

►

be careful, stoneyB

StoneyB

I'm too old to fly, now.

Damkerng T.

@Usernew Oh, my cat never does that successfully!

Usernew

I was talking about running :D

I guess you are too old for that, too! :D

@DamkerngT. o.O

Damkerng T.

@Usernew The birds in my garden are not very fast, even. Maybe my cat is a bit too heavy to jump so high like that. :-)

Usernew

13:30

I don't think any home cat is capable of that kind of jump. Only the Caracals can do that

Damkerng T.

@Usernew I will pass that to my cat. I think he'll feel better. :D

Usernew

Let your cat on a treadmill

she/he will get slim

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Usernew

probably then she/he will catch birds like that :D

StoneyB

We had to put our cat on a diet.

Usernew

13:32

hmm

and the cat got fatter?

Damkerng T.

I wonder what BMI my cat has got.

Usernew

you mean IBM?

probably too much?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. ∞

Damkerng T.

Heh!

Usernew

☺

StoneyB

13:33

No, she went from 13½ to 10½ pounds -- a little over 6 kilos to a little less than 5.

Usernew

that's an achievement :)

Damkerng T.

Ahh... my cat is at 7.6!

StoneyB

She didn't regard it that way.

Usernew

:D

Damkerng T.

I should figure out how to put him on a diet, too, I suppose.

(And I also want to lose a few pounds myself!)

Usernew

13:35

you don't take him out for a walk?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Ban lasagna!

Damkerng T.

@Usernew Sometimes, but not very often lately.

StoneyB

We bought cat food lite from the vet.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Wondering if I can find cat food lite over here.

Usernew

People are crazy over dogs. But I personally find cats to be funnier :)

or you can order online?

Damkerng T.

13:37

Oh, right!

Usernew

nobody has an aquarium here?

StoneyB

@Usernew Prolly - but a) I had a great deal of trust in the vet, and none in internet ads, and b) it's not that expensive, and c) it helps keep that office going.

Damkerng T.

I used to have a fish bowl, but the fish didn't survive... sad

Usernew

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. ⊻⋑⋒⋨

StoneyB

Did the cat have anything to do with that?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:38

Huh

Usernew

Internet ads are way too exaggerated

Damkerng T.

The cat came after the fish bowl.

Usernew

or you flushed them down the toilet? :O @DamkerngT.

StoneyB

My cat would have gone after the fishbowl, too, if we'd had one.

Damkerng T.

@Usernew My fish didn't like fish food, and they just stopped swimming.

Usernew

13:40

and what would you have done? film it? :D

so that accounts for MURDER! :O

or REDRUM

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Sounds like a conspiracy. Did it went on a strike?

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I don't know. It was a mystery (and still is) to me.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I knew it.

Your fish is hiding somewhere and planning to kill you.

Usernew

but the fish just needs some water

to kill Dam

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Will I get rusty?!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:43

@Usernew It's not that simple. Everything is waterproof these days.

Usernew

yeah :(

aren't thy rust proof?

Damkerng T.

Haha! Nice!

Usernew

:D

probably the fish's gone miniscule?

@dam

Damkerng T.

Or the bowl was blown up. :P

Usernew

I want this fish to be in my aquarium if I ever have one

Or the bowl was blown up by you

!

Ha! Got ya!

see the giant green balls? that's its eyes

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

13:52

gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300441.txt

Damkerng T.

@Usernew Wait, it's real?

Usernew

yes, very real

as real as it gets

the name is Barreleyes fish

StoneyB

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Shaw's last play. I was in that in grad school -- I played Newton.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB LOL fits well

> Newton, aged 38, comes in from the garden, hatless, deep in
calculation, his fists clenched, tapping his knuckles together to
tick off the stages of the equation. He stumbles over the mat.

MRS BASHAM. Oh, do look where youre going, Mr Newton. Someday
youll walk into the river and drown yourself. I thought you were
out at the university.

NEWTON. Now dont scold, Mrs Basham, dont scold. I forgot to go
out. I thought of a way of making a calculation that has been
puzzling me.

MRS BASHAM. And you have been sitting out there forgetting

StoneyB

Yes, that's rather like my answers on ELL.

What on earth led you to it?

Usernew

14:00

Molecules

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@StoneyB TeX chat.

BTW I'm supposed to be studying biology right now.

StoneyB

Heavens. I would have thought I was the only person on SE who'd ever heard of the piece.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

> NEWTON. The honor of meeting me! Don't talk nonsense. They are
great men in their very different ranks. I am nobody.

Fits @Stoney well indeed.

Damkerng T.

Hey, three times seven is a Chinese proverb!

"7 3 21" <-- the proverb

Usernew

and what does it mean?

Damkerng T.

14:03

I think it means it's what it is.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

It should mean something like "brush your teeth everyday and be a good boy".

Damkerng T.

Maybe the proverb is "3 7 21". I'm not sure which comes first, between 3 and 7.

Usernew

:(

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

It's always that when I don't know what a proverb should mean.

@DamkerngT. 73 37 21? O_O

Your proverbs are weird.

Damkerng T.

Three times seven equals twenty-one, right. That's the way things are.

Usernew

14:05

hmm

we have a proverb in Hindi

Ghar ki murgi, dal barabar

it means Self possessions are always undermined and other's possessions seem better.

Damkerng T.

Subtitles, please. :-)

Ahh...

Usernew

en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hindi_proverbs

Damkerng T.

> en.wiktionary.org/wiki/…

Usernew

Good :))

hmm

great message to cast all caution to the wind and act without thinking of the consequences

StoneyB

@Usernew "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" is our version.

Usernew

14:11

I love that too

Damkerng T.

> बंदर क्या जाने अदरक का स्वाद
Translation: What does a monkey knows about the taste of ginger?

Hah!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

> The neighbor's hen is a goose.

Usernew

:D

:DD

@StoneyB reminded me of a song

Damkerng T.

Wait, wait, wait! The translation is ungrammatical!

Usernew

translation of what?

Damkerng T.

14:12

> What does a monkey knows about the taste of ginger?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Tsk tsk tsk

StoneyB

What! Does knows?

Usernew

Does know

Damkerng T.

@Usernew You could fix that for the world. :-)

Usernew

No Wikipedia account :D

"The pen is mightier than the sword." i another of my fav

*is

"There's no such thing as a free lunch."

"Don't bite the hand that feeds you."

people are not adhering to it, I suppose.

Damkerng T.

14:17

@Usernew Ahh... like the viper and the farmer.

Usernew

instead they chomp on those hands.

Exactly!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Bites his hand

Usernew

what? @Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. :D

whose hand?

bye and good night all. have a good day! and have a Kit-Kat, too :)

Damkerng T.

o/

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. BMI is a ratio of mass (in kilograms) to height (in meters) squared. So how tall is your cat? :-)

Damkerng T.

14:31

Ah, I don't know that!

Anonymous

I'm not sure what it means to talk about the height of a quadruped.

Damkerng T.

Looks like he's about 23-24 inches long (tail excluded).

So... his BMI is about 21. :D

Anonymous

I don't know how adiposity is normally measured in cats.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hagu is a healthy human!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

StoneyB

14:37

@snailboat What you want is FBMI

2

Damkerng T.

The level of the 9th rib... where is it?!

StoneyB

Just after the 8th rib :-)

Damkerng T.

I think I need "How to measure your cat's FBMI (with picture)". :-)

StoneyB

Here's a pure eyeball test.

Anonymous

@StoneyB Ooh, thanks! That's interesting :-)

Anonymous

14:42

Aww, poor category one animals :-(

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. Here you go.

Anonymous

Now we can find out if Hagu is a healthy human and if Hagu is a healthy cat!

Damkerng T.

I think he's moderate, according to the eyeball test.

Anonymous

Yay

Damkerng T.

I just made some measurements. The numbers are 48 and 15.

Let's see...

((48/0.7062) - 15) / 0.9156 - 15 = 42!

Right at the line!

StoneyB

14:47

Just plump.

Ciao, all ... gotta go work ...

Anonymous

Have a good day!

Damkerng T.

Thank you very much!

Actually, it's 42.8521338617, so I guess he could use a bit of a diet.

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