Language Overflow

modulusshift

06:28

@CopperKettle to the cannon: When you're done wrecking shit, for the sake of those whose shit you've wrecked, don't become dear to the heart of those who prospered due to your use, but be cut out and cursed once you've done your work.

I believe the cannon is the intended target of "innocent of enmity", which is an interesting touch. The author uses it as a symbol of vast destruction, but not specifically the destruction we wish. As it spits vast and fatal curses, it could spit those curses back at us, and never notice the difference.

CopperKettle

07:02

@modulusshift Thanks for the explanation!

I already asked a question at ELL:

0

Q: Meaning of a sentence in Wilfred Owen's sonnet

I don't understand the meaning of one sentence in Wilfred Owen's sonnet titled On Seeing a Piece of our Heavy Artillery Brought into Action: Be slowly lifted up, thou long black arm, Great Gun towering towards Heaven, about to curse; Sway steep against them, and for years rehearse Huge ...

I don't understand where the meaning "who prospered due to your use" comes from.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

10:57

44

Q: Human perception of time depending on age

From what I can tell and what thus far all people with whom I discussed this subject confirmed is that time appears to "accelerate" as we age. Digging a little, most explanations I found basically reduced this to two reasons: As we age physically, a time frame of constant length becomes ever s...

human-biology biochemistry neuroscience perception

@Dam would think the past billion years passed too fast. O_O

Darn it.

CopperKettle

11:17

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. With age, less new neurons are generated in the hippocampus each day. This reduces the ability to remember new things, experiences, etc.

Damkerng T.

11:48

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. A mere teracycle.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

\o @Cop @Dam @V.V.

Damkerng T.

o/

CopperKettle

o/

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. - it's Friday, shouldn't you be hijacking an exam now? or that was last friday? My perception of time is tardy.

(0:

Damkerng T.

12:49

Rcpp appears to have a sugar function clamp, which does what numpy.clip does. See also: stackoverflow.com/questions/13868963/…. — Damkerng T. 30 secs ago

For the love of programming

CopperKettle

13:41

Is it okay to say "They were singing loud and earnestly‌"?

Damkerng T.

Informally, it sounds perfectly okay to me.

Now I wonder if prescriptivists will think it's correct.

CopperKettle

It sounded strange to me due to different endings.

But if it's okay, then it's okay.

Damkerng T.

> Hitch said, 'Let's do it again. You were talking so loud, I couldn't hear the London Symphony.'

> It's Only a Movie: Alfred Hitchcock A Personal Biography

2

Q: what does "as" mean here? (because or while)

There is a sentence containing "as" and I have had a problem for a long time in distinguishing whether it means "because" or "while" in the context. Please be more clear in explaining and tell me why this should or shouldn't be depending on grammatical clues. Here it is : The critically enda...

meaning-in-context

The question reminds me of this:

V.V.

14:08

@DamkerngT.Why not "loudly "here?What does MAR want to know?

Damkerng T.

@V.V. There are a handful of words that can work as either adj. and adv. Loud is one of them.

Loudly would be find in that sentence, too. And it would bring about the effect of rhyming.

But loud and earnestly also reads well, IMHO.

(Like when taking a photograph, sometimes we make it symmetrical, sometimes we make it lopsided.)

I don't know that MAR wanted to know anything. Did he want to know something?

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Did you want to know something?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Did I?

Damkerng T.

Don't know. @V.V. asked so.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

We all want to know something. The problem is laziness.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

14:14

@CopperKettle I did hijack it this morning.

@Dam what kind of a minor sentence is "pfft"?

Damkerng T.

Interjection?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

O_o

Hanaa

Hello every one

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

\o

Damkerng T.

Hello!

CopperKettle

14:29

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Congratulations!

@Hanaa Hi, Hanaa!

"With that said, I'll wait to see if you have any follow-up questions." -- isn't this a Past Participial clause?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle . . . and still have got one for tomorrow.

in Shadow's Den on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 1 min ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Being special means people will point at you. I don't wanna be pointed at.

in Shadow's Den on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 1 min ago, by Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Being unique however, I'm very good at.

CopperKettle

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Good luck tomorrow!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle But it begins with With.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Yes. A subordinator. It could be used with participial clauses. Quirk et al., 14.15, page 1003

Damkerng T.

14:33

Ah, yes. You were talking about clause, not phrase.

I guess there are more than one possible analysis for that part.

CopperKettle

0

A: Especial use of "with"

With so much on her mind, she can hardly sleep. There is nothing "special" about this use of with. The whole clause "with so much on her mind" is a subordinate clause to "she can hardly sleep". We can rephrase the whole sentence thus: When/because so much is on her mind, she can hardly...

Hanaa

What is the whole clause?

Damkerng T.

With that (being) said with "that being said" a clause turned into a participle.

Or With that (being) said with "that being said" as something noun-like.

(like, With this or With that.)

CopperKettle

@Hanaa Excuse me? I don't understand.

Hanaa

@CopperKettle Could u write the whole clause that you are asking about?

CopperKettle

14:37

@Hanaa "With that said, I'll wait to see if you have any follow-up questions."

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@CopperKettle That's two clauses.

@CopperKettle Works, yes; common, don't think so.

Damkerng T.

> With so much on her mind, she can hardly sleep.

I think it's easier to think of what that comes after With as a block of nouny stuff.

(With so much being on her mind; With so much that is on her mind)

Hanaa

@CopperKettle Here, with that said means it was said

so it contains a past participle

CopperKettle

@Hanaa Yes, I think so too.

But..

1. could be rewritten "She can hardly sleep, with so much on her mind." 2. Could be rewritten "She can't afford to waste any time, with so much to do". but 3. Could be rewritten "That said, I'll wait to see if you have any follow-up questions." The reason is that 3 contains a finite verb and is thus a finite clause. The other two are noun phrases. So 1 and 2 are grammatically quite different to 3. — Great Crosby 20 mins ago

Great Crosby called it a "finite clause", so I became unsure.

Damkerng T.

I think GC was talking about said in That said.

I don't know, "that said" is probably not worth analysis. (Though, of course, we can, if we want to.)

CopperKettle

14:42

@DamkerngT. Yes, but that "said" must be a past participle.

Hanaa

@CopperKettle Sorry but where is the finite verb ?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... what if someone thinks that it's an ellipsis of "(With) that (being) said"?

CopperKettle

@Hanaa Great Crosby says that said is a finite verb

@DamkerngT. Isn't it? O_o

Damkerng T.

Saying 'it's an ellipsis' sounds iffy to me!

@CopperKettle It should be, but I usually think of it as a set phrase, or an idiom.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Yes, probably.

Damkerng T.

14:47

Oh, the OP wrote "With that said", not just "That said".

Let's see... how often people use each of them.

Hanaa

grammar-monster.com/glossary/finite_verbs.htm

Damkerng T.

. with that said 28
. that said 858
. with that being said 8
. that being said 114

(COCA)

@Hanaa Don't trust Grammar Monster too much. Though I don't think they'll get basic stuff wrong.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Are these "that said" all placed at the beginning of a sentence?

Hanaa

@DamkerngT. Ok

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@Hanaa telic?

Damkerng T.

14:50

@CopperKettle Yes. The dot (.) did the trick.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Ah. Nice!

Hanaa

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. What is telic?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Also "having said that".

CopperKettle

@Hanaa a verb that has "a purpose". Walk is atelic. Win is telic

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Telicity

In linguistics, telicity (from the Greek τέλος, meaning "end" or "goal") is the property of a verb or verb phrase that presents an action or event as being complete in some sense. A verb or verb phrase with this property is said to be telic, while a verb or verb phrase that presents an action or event as being incomplete is said to be atelic. == Testing for telicity in English == One common way to gauge whether an English verb phrase is telic is to see whether such a phrase as in an hour, in the sense of "within an hour", (known as a time-frame adverbial) can be applied to it. Conversely, a common...

Damkerng T.

14:51

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. That, too! But I was focused only on the "that said" pattern.

. having said that 331

Hanaa

@CopperKettle I think that said here needs another clause

How is it finite then?

CopperKettle

@Hanaa I don't know. Maybe he made a mistake.

Hanaa

I walked is a finite clause

with that said , ??

CopperKettle

Yes. Walked is a preterite.

"That said" does not look like a finite one.

Hanaa

no that said is finite

but with that said is not

because it contains with

CopperKettle

15:01

@Hanaa "That said, let's turn to other matters" - do you think that here said is finite?

Maybe @snailboat knows how to distinguish it sure-fire

Hanaa

If that here is a subordination, it will not be finite

CopperKettle

I found this:

21

Q: Can anyone give me a grammatical explanation as to why "that being said" is proper English?

A certain pedant is claiming that beginning a sentence with "That being said" is grammatically incorrect owing to the apparent logical contradiction in claiming that something in the past (e.g. the previous paragraph) is still "being said", i.e. unfolding in the present. He claims that only "that...

idioms tenses participle

(starts reading)

Damkerng T.

@Hanaa That That in That said is a pronoun (rather than a conj.), I think.

Hanaa

because it means, let's turn to other matter that i said about

Damkerng T.

That doesn't sound quite right, I think.

Hanaa

15:05

@DamkerngT. even if it is demonstrative pronoun , means he said let's change the matter

so not finite

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Well that sets it.

Damkerng T.

Yes, that's why this that shouldn't be a conjunction.

CopperKettle

Who said it was a conjunction?

Damkerng T.

A subordinator.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Points at someone in the street O:]

CopperKettle

15:07

(0:

Damkerng T.

I just turned "subordinator" to "conjunction" to make things clearer.

Hanaa

@CopperKettle subordinator or pronoun, its meaning needs another clause, so it is not finite

That person said, this clause needs explanation

I said that. This one may be finite

That have been said may be finite too

but

with that said or with me saying that or with that was said are never finite

Damkerng T.

The matter should be as straightforward as: if said is a verb, then it's in its finite form. No matter what that is.

Hanaa

they need explanation

V.V.

It might be useful to write "with that said"=Because that was said.IMHO

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

15:18

Mmmmm, not when you're analyzing.

V.V.

Do you like "with that said"=that said?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

I only use equal signs when I'm explaining the meaning to someone.

V.V.

I meant the explanation.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

Well, yeah, they mean the same.

V.V.

So you think if a person doesn't know the meaning of "with that said" they will understand "that said".

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

15:42

researchgate.net/publication/…

Crazy Ninja

Morning guys!

Anonymous

16:11

@DamkerngT. Said can be both a past tense, which is finite, and a past participle, which is non-finite.

Anonymous

(Of course, it can also be an adjective, but we're talking about verb forms here.)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... So, in "It's said", only "is" is finite, and "said" is non-finite?

Anonymous

That's right.

Damkerng T.

Okay. Thanks!

All this is nothing but a discussion on labels.

Back to GC's comment, I wonder what GC meant by "finite".

Anonymous

I missed that part of the discussion.

Damkerng T.

16:14

It's where it began.

Anonymous

1. could be rewritten "She can hardly sleep, with so much on her mind." 2. Could be rewritten "She can't afford to waste any time, with so much to do". but 3. Could be rewritten "That said, I'll wait to see if you have any follow-up questions." The reason is that 3 contains a finite verb and is thus a finite clause. The other two are noun phrases. So 1 and 2 are grammatically quite different to 3. — Great Crosby 2 hours ago

Damkerng T.

Yes! You're much quicker!

I guess they misunderstood "finite" as well, or else they must've used another set of labels.

Wow, iPad!

Anonymous

To be a little clearer, none of the examples are noun phrases or clauses.

Anonymous

They must mean "the complement of with in 1" when they say 1, and so on.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think "so much on her mind" is noun like, though.

Anonymous

16:18

Yeah, you can call that a noun phrase.

Anonymous

Same with so much to do.

Anonymous

So the question is, what's the structure of with that said?

Anonymous

Which is tricky, because said and said look the same.

2

Damkerng T.

Or the inner part, 'that said'.

Anonymous

So we should try something similar, but with a verb where the past tense and past participle are distinguished in form.

Damkerng T.

16:21

It can't be the past form, I think.

Anonymous

> She thought she was being safe by leaving her purse in her car, but with the car stolen, everything from her credit cards to her license to her social security card were gone.

Anonymous

> *She thought she was being safe by leaving her purse in her car, but with the car stole, everything from her credit cards to her license to her social security card were gone.

Damkerng T.

So, it must be either a verb (participle), or an adjective.

Anonymous

Stolen works, but stole doesn't.

Anonymous

If it's an adjective, it's a participial adjective, one derived from the participial form of a verb. But:

Anonymous

16:22

> *She thought she was being safe by leaving her purse in her car, but with the car very stolen, everything from her credit cards to her license to her social security card were gone.

Anonymous

> She thought she was being safe by leaving her purse in her car, but with the car stolen by her boyfriend, everything from her credit cards to her license to her social security card were gone.

Anonymous

> *She thought she was being safe by leaving her purse in her car, but with the car more stolen than the truck, everything from her credit cards to her license to her social security card were gone.

Anonymous

Seems to be a verb form.

Damkerng T.

I was sure that it should be a verb, but the ELU post has an answer saying that it's an adjective.

Anonymous

With that (being) said looks similar to me.

Anonymous

16:24

@DamkerngT. What grounds did they use to demonstrate that it's an adjective?

Anonymous

Let's see.

Damkerng T.

I don't think the answer demonstrates anything. It just calls it an adjective.

(By a mod)

Anonymous

JSBձոգչ' answer looks more accurate to me.

Anonymous

But JSBձոգչ doesn't actually say what it is :-)

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

16:27

My examples are a little silly. They're based on a sentence I found on the web that uses steal and has what I believe to be a similar structure.

Anonymous

And I'm reasoning by analogy. It's often easier to use an example where two forms are distinguished than one where they aren't, and that's why I found that example.

CopperKettle

Nice!

Anonymous

And I think that works for distinguishing past tense from past participle. I think said is clearly the latter in (with) that (being) said.

Anonymous

The other thing we want to distinguish, it seems, is ① a past participial verb form from ② a participial adjective (derived from that verb form).

Anonymous

Can we come up with any tests to distinguish the two with said?

Anonymous

16:31

If it's gradable, it's definitely an adjective. But not all adjectives are gradable, so if it fails that test, we still don't know for sure.

CopperKettle

"that being more said than done"

Anonymous

That's metalinguistic comparison.

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

It doesn't count, since you can do it with anything :-)

CopperKettle

I see. (0:

Damkerng T.

16:34

@snailboat I think it can be ambiguous with other verbs.

Hmm... Maybe even "said" is ambiguous.

For example, it's common to say "it's written so" even when the actual action of writing happened in the past.

"With that written, we can claim that ..."

What is "written"? It's tricky, perhaps.

Araucaria

@snailboat Can't we use a become test?

Anonymous

@Araucaria Oh! Let's hear about a become test! :-)

Araucaria

@snailboat I havn't looked this up, but can't adjectives be PCs with become, but participles not?

CopperKettle

PCs?

Damkerng T.

meta.stackexchange.com/q/272956/288919 -- I cried Yikes! Then became glad when I saw that it's gotten over 200 downvotes.

Araucaria

16:43

@CopperKettle Predicative Complements :)

CopperKettle

oh. (0:

Araucaria

@snailboat If so, we can find the odd sentence such as "It became said that the sun was one of his eyes and the moon the other"

@snailboat But they're very rare

Hmmm, maybe not, I'm sure it's a participle in That being said ...

Damkerng T.

17:45

> Col. Hans Landa: [giddy] Oooh, that's a bingo! Is that the way you say it? "That's a bingo?"
Lt. Aldo Raine: You just say "bingo."
Col. Hans Landa: Bingo! How fun! But, I digress. Where were we?

> Inglorious Basterds

You just say "bingo", not "That's a bingo!". :D

Damkerng T.

18:14

> as: Varying through time in the same proportion that. As my fear grew, so did my legs become heavy.

Hmm... what dictionary defines as that way? (Of course, apart from Wiktionary, a collaborative dictionary project that is said to have "Be your own lexicographer!" as its motto.)

CopperKettle

18:56

I wonder why Wiktionary's entries remain apparently un-vandalized.

Fantasier

@CopperKettle There are many people patrolling all the Wik-s.

Reverting bad changes and such.

CopperKettle

@Fantasier I know, and that makes me wonder. Patrolling dictionary articles is quite unfun compared with reading Wikipedia articles.

In the end, professional-oriented projects might win out. I mean the projects where professionals fill entries.

Damkerng T.

21:02

1

Q: 'Two of us' or 'the two of us'

If my dad and I are going a market, can I say Two of us are going to the market. or I should say The two of us are going to the market. I am kind of confused about the "the" here. What role is it playing over here?? If I take a guess, I would say that the difference is just like "a...

articles

I wanted to say that both are unidiomatic, but I wasn't absolutely sure.

When will people say "(The) two of us are going to the market"?

Why not "My dad and I" or "Me and my dad" or just "We both" or "Both of us"?

Saying "The two of us ..." makes it sound like a fable, right?

Saying "Two of us ..." makes me think of the boss of gangsters is assigning his people for some jobs. "You two do this. You do that. Jimmy, two of us just wait here."

(Still a little odd. Perhaps it's better without the "Jimmy, " part.)

CopperKettle

I only recalled the Beatles song "Two of Us" (0:

It uses no article. An ellipsis of article?

I did a rambling answer, will put it down if someone downvotes. The thing is, it's an interesting question.

"The two of us are going to the market" seems to strongly imply that the speaker will be part of that two.

Good night! (0:

Damkerng T.

21:24

> Two of us riding nowhere / Spending someone's / Hard earned pay

Hmm... that's the same feeling I suppose I'll get when I hear it in fables.

Kinda like "This little piggy went to market / This little piggy stayed home, ..."

Damkerng T.

22:07

0

A: Slang in Ant Man, Scott LANG

Mad is closer to "unbelievable" or "surprising" here. Urban Dictionary has this for a few categories where I'd see this as similar to "mad skills" personally. I got unbelievable connections I got amazing connections Bomb is similar as "something very cool/ good"

Ah, right! mad can mean "unbelievable", too.

CopperKettle

I can't fall asleep. D'oh.

0

Q: "When I have had to break bad news I never know" or "I never knew"?

From "Do Not Harm" by Henry Marsh: When I have had to break bad news I never know whether I have done it well or not. The patients aren’t going to ring me up afterward and say, ‘Mr. Marsh, I really liked the way you told me that I was going to die,’ or ‘Mr. Marsh, you were crap.’ You can only...

tense-agreement

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle LOL

Maybe I should've glossed mad as "crazy". Much safer that way.

CopperKettle

nods

Damkerng T.

"When I have had to break bad news" -- Hmm...

Wouldn't just "When I have to break bad news" already be enough?

CopperKettle

The book is nice, but I caught this particular sentence.

Maybe it's okay. Maybe I was not paying attention to such things before plunging into grammar.

Damkerng T.

22:13

A-ha! I get it!

"When I have had to break bad news I never know whether I have done it well or not."

CopperKettle

Bob the Zealot added the tag grammar to my question. Lol.

Damkerng T.

It's a general fact about his life. It's a fact when something has already happened.

@CopperKettle LOL

Kinda like the Zero Conditional, I suppose.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. But the tenses fail to dovetail.

It should be (if it's a general truth) "When I have to ... I never know..."

Damkerng T.

It (know) fits, if you think about it as a Zero Conditional.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. But then have had fails to fit.

Damkerng T.

22:16

It just that he chose to set the condition as when something just has happened, instead of when it happens.

"When this has happened, I will ..."

CopperKettle

Then he allows for the possibility that this pattern will cease the next moment. And that makes it quite different from the zero conditional.

Damkerng T.

"When I have had to break bad news I'll never know ..." -- First Conditional

"When I have had to break bad news I never know ..." -- Zero Conditional

CopperKettle

If I have been bringing water to 100C, it boils.

Damkerng T.

When the water has reached 100C, it boils.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Oh. that seems okay.

Damkerng T.

22:20

I didn't notice that he wrote it in the the narrative present at first. When I saw that, everything fell into place.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Nice example. You might post an answer!

I had thought it was the author's typo, to be frank.

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle Nah. It's a bit late for me. I'm sure it'll be a confusing answer if I write one right now. :P

CopperKettle

okay (0:

The word news probably disoriented me. I know logically that in English it's singular, but to me news looks like "many instances of news".

Damkerng T.

I used to think of news as something countable, too. I think it's countable in my first language.

CopperKettle

In russian, we have a singular new and plural news.

Damkerng T.

22:26

nods

CopperKettle

And we have a single advice and plural advices.

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's interesting!

I thought Russian was rather close to English.

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. Doesnt Thai have a singular noun for advice?

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle It's actually unclear. I think we can count anything if we want to, because countability is not a prominent feature in Thai.

CopperKettle

(0:

Damkerng T.

22:28

So, you'll never be really wrong. :P

CopperKettle

Language is 70% redundant, and the grains of meaning are irregularly distributed, with each language having its own pattern of meaning distribution.

Damkerng T.

(But it's easy to sound unnatural.)

CopperKettle

> While the field has become known for its life-saving procedures, neurosurgeons are called just as often to preside over the end of their patient’s lives – work that requires just as much skill as any technical procedure.

I wonder why not "the work that requires". Probably that would change the meaning from generic "effort" to some more specific line of work.

Damkerng T.

@CopperKettle I think I'm okay with either. (If we replace it with job, either a job or the job should be okay, too.)

CopperKettle

0

Q: Definite article in "the work that requires just as much skill as any technical procedure"

From "Palliative Care" by Stephen Miranda: While the field has become known for its life-saving procedures, neurosurgeons are called just as often to preside over the end of their patient’s lives – work that requires just as much skill as any technical procedure. Could we add a definite ar...

articles

Good night, Damkerng!

Damkerng T.

22:43

Good night!

Transcript for