Language Overflow

Damkerng T.

09:45

Ahh... as I expected, native speakers should be able to catch a misused participle if it was pointed out.

Good point, it would technically be more clear to choose option 2 over option 1. In option 1 it is not structurally clear what is doing the introducing in the phrase "After introducing some anchors by the user", the way the sentence currently stands, it seems like the range of nodes should be doing the introducing, although we know this is not what the author is trying to convey. Option 2 is actually more clear since it specifies that the anchors are being introduced by the user. — Josh Thomas 15 hours ago

Anyway...

The answer's suggested alternative gives me some thoughts.

It's about the passive voice aversion.

Here is the original (the best one, #2):

> a) After some anchors are introduced by the user, the range of nodes which are affected by a single anchor or a group of anchors should be specified.

These are suggested alternatives:

> b) After the user introduces some anchors, the range of nodes affected by a single anchor or a group of anchors should be specified.

> c) After the user introduces some anchors, they also need to specify the range of nodes affected by a single anchor or a group of anchors.

> d) After the user introduces some anchors, they also need to specify the range of nodes affected by the anchors.

All alternatives have approximately the same meaning...

which one would you like to read?

In my opinion, b) is the most awkward one.

It first talks about the user, then switches to talk about the nodes (or the range of the nodes).

That's why it's awkward.

Why did it happen?

I believe it's because the passive voice bashing.

We are now at the point where most speakers of English believe that writing in the passive voice is akin to committing a minor crime.

How did that happen?

I think most people know how. I have a vague idea how, but not exactly how. (It would be nice if someone will tell me how. I'll be thankful since it will save me several hours of searching.)

In any case, d) shifts the focus to be upon the shoulder of the user entirely.

For some unknown reason, I don't feel like I want to be the user in d). It seems like a very demanding task--even after I do that, I still need to do this!?

Even though a) means about the same thing, but it reads much better for me. It considers everything objectively, in the matter-of-fact manner.

All in all, I think it's just the matter of style. Then again, the passive voice aversion aversion (yes, it's two aversions) would be a more desirable style, if you asked me.

Damkerng T.

12:49

I found this text today:

> My son will have to learn I know that all men are not just, all men are not true. But teach him also that for ever scoundrel there is a hero; that for every selfish politician, there is a dedicated leader. Teach him that for every enemy there is a friend.

It appears to be claimed to be Abraham Lincoln's letter to his son's Head Master.

But because its very first sentence struck me as ungrammatical, I searched...

And to my surprise, when it appears in a book, it's never in a book written by a native speaker. Or so it seems.

Damkerng T.

16:07

0

Q: Where I can get correction my sentences on English

I finding service where my english sentences correcting a native speakers. I used lang-8.com. But correction was rare. I find same service like it. Ore another where I get help. don't matter free or not.

I finding service where my english sentences correcting a native speakers. I used > lang-8.com. But correction was rare.

Oh!

Damkerng T.

16:40

Today I learned another language change: most can be used in the place of almost!

@fdb I regret to inform you that "most" for "almost" is now accepted in American written English, except the formal academic register, which is currently being revised. — user6726 Apr 13 at 2:05

To cross-check that...

most: 6 American informal used before words such as “everything” or “everywhere” for saying that something is true about almost everyone or everything

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. hmmm...how?

Damkerng T.

> The iced tea was very sweet, as it is most everywhere in the South.

Man_From_India

I mean how the first sentence is ungrammatical?

Damkerng T.

Ah, I think I spotted two weird things.

looking...

> My son will have to learn I know that all men are not just, all men are not true.

I expected this:

> My son will have to learn. I know that not all men are just, not all men are true.

Man_From_India

Well the sentence might be weired, but not ungrammatical.

It might happen that his son has to learn the fact that he knows....

Damkerng T.

16:44

I didn't say that it's really ungrammatical, but it gave me that feeling.

Man_From_India

I know it's a bit odd

Damkerng T.

In any case, it made me feel that it wasn't written by Lincoln.

Man_From_India

It might be :)

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Could be, but that would be a weird opening sentence for a letter to the head master. :D

Some claims that it was a letter to his son's teacher, not the head master.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. But this is real bad writing. I could not understand it properly :)

I thought lang8 does correction. Never used it though.

Damkerng T.

16:47

Hehe! -- I think the OP finds that Lang-8 doesn't work.

@Man_From_India Yes! So, it's a little surprising.

Man_From_India

Oh time for dinner. See u later :)

Damkerng T.

See you!

If it had really been written by Lincoln, I should be able to find it on some old books on Google Books or some government archives.

It may be a case of facsimile or recollected words.

illinois.gov/ihpa/Research/Pages/Facsimile.aspx

> Before faxes existed printers created facsimiles-- an exact copy or reproduction of a document. Facsimiles of Lincoln documents began to appear during Lincoln's life and continue to this day.

> [...]

> Lincoln Never Said That
By Thomas F. Schwartz, Ph.D.

> Anyone who has glanced at a cereal box, herbal tea package, inspirational book, or restaurant place mat has probably encountered a Lincoln quotation that rings hollow. Lincoln is often quoted and misquoted by public officials and celebrities. Members of Congress have access to researchers at the Library of Congress to keep right with Lincoln's words. But even this resource cannot keep spurious Lincoln's quotations from being uttered by members of Congress.

> [...]

> A greater problem is dealing with attributions. Individuals recollecting Lincoln's exact words began to appear immediately following his death. Perhaps the most accessible source of these recollected statements is found in Carl Sandburg's six-volume biography of Abraham Lincoln. Recollected words cannot be dismissed out of hand because most of the informants knew Lincoln or are part of an oral tradition going back to Lincoln.

The quote is #4.

> 4. A popular undated letter found on internet sites that allegedly was written to the headmaster of a school in which one of Lincoln's sons was studying:

> "My son will have to learn, I know, that all men are not just, all men are not true. But teach him also that for every scoundrel there is a hero; that for every selfish politician, there is a dedicated leader. Teach him that for every enemy there is a friend.

(Oh, that's another variation! This one uses commas.)

I like the one with the commas better. It makes it more plausible.

(It also allows me to understand the uncommon placing of not as old-fashioned English.)

Man_From_India

17:35

@DamkerngT. I think in that question OP missed those comma. And that changed the meaning of the sentence considerably, and made it sound odd.

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

0

Q: When "through" is interchangeable with "by"

I have this sentence Then, he specifies several anchors by selecting elements of the page. Can I write it as follows ? Then, he specifies several anchors through selecting elements of the page. I know sometimes we can use "through" means "by", but I don't know when!

prepositions prepositional-phrase

I know both of them are possible in this case. But the version with by is more common.

But @DamkerngT. How to be sure in these cases which prepositions to be appropriate?

Damkerng T.

I think we can't never be sure. I believe that this is the same for native speakers.

However, the number of uncertain cases for native speakers would be much smaller.

And they usually have a rather good idea which is the best one to use.

However, I doubt that anyone can always be certain what are all the possible choices and which choice is more frequent in all given sentences.

Man_From_India

I think my last sentence is wrong...i have to write are instead of to be.

Damkerng T.

How can we be sure ...? would be fine.

Man_From_India

17:48

How can we be sure which prepositions are ~~to be~~ appropriate?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I missed the latter! :-)

Man_From_India

Yes :) i wrote previously ...which prepositiins to be appropriate? ...

That is wrong.

Damkerng T.

In real speech or writing, we have a lot more choices of prepositions.

For example,

> The tickets are available by/through the Internet.

What about on or via?

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. In that case what a learner should do? I mean any guideline to follow not to write wrong English?

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I see. I have a little theory.

It's about words on the left and words on the right.

Man_From_India

17:51

@DamkerngT. via in my opinion is more common there.

Damkerng T.

nods

You can think of my idea as applied collocation. It's the next step of using collocates.

For example, let's try will.

macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/will_2

Let's focus only on prepositions.

Man_From_India

Ahhh i think in this sentence i will search for "available by/through/via internet". Right? And will take note which one hits more? This way?

@DamkerngT. Ok

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Yes. That's one way we can check the usage.

Man_From_India

Let's continue what u were saying

Damkerng T.

However, keep in mind that when more than one choice are in use, each choice can mean a different thing.

@Man_From_India Oh, actually it's nothing much. :-)

For will, there is against someone's will, impose your will on someone, in someone's will.

So, let's say, we want to write something nobody's probably never written before...

> I determine to do this X my will.

Man_From_India

17:58

@DamkerngT. yes, so we have to be careful while analyzing the data. Right we can't simply say that the number of hit is more for this case, then it must be more correct. That's true. But it's a hell lot of work :(

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Indeed. But it's similar to what native speakers do, actually.

They just do the same thing without relying on corpora.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. This is interesting. I want similar thing :) please carry on.

Damkerng T.

My idea is that there are not many differences between native and non-native speakers. The biggest difference is a native speaker has seen or heard a huge number of examples in their whole life.

Enough that we can say that each of them possesses a unique corpus in the brain.

So they can access that corpus anytime they want to.

Non-native speakers also has gone through a large number of examples, but sadly, a good portion of the examples are incorrect or ungrammatical.

@Man_From_India Let me wrap it up like this. In some sentences, the preposition is chosen because of the words on its left; in some, on its right; and in some, it's a free choice.

Man_From_India

Very true indeed. You know this one is similar to what I read in introduction part while studying Government and Binding Theory..though i haven't studied the whole theory.

Thanks :)

Damkerng T.

Hah!

I thought my idea was unique. :P

Man_From_India

18:05

:D

Damkerng T.

Some dictionaries are really helpful.

Man_From_India

Similar thing was said there...not exactly what u said.

Damkerng T.

They will list the most common collocates of a word.

@Man_From_India I'm sure that if someone sits down and really thinks about a language, they will arrive at more or less the same explanation.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Yes :) and OED is probably the best out there. Unfortunately they r too expensive :(

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I think Macmillan (online) is sufficient in most cases.

Man_From_India

18:08

I love the usage notes under each entry.

Damkerng T.

(For example, case: in that case, in which case. :-)

@Man_From_India I see. I've heard that Longman is good, too, when it comes to usage notes.

Man_From_India

Yes :) that is sufficient to understand the usage.

Damkerng T.

I have a more complicated idea about the free choice of prepositions I mentioned above.

But it's pretty similar to my idea about the usage of tenses, modalities, and articles.

To sum it up, it's about cognition tuning.

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. Sometimes I think Longman better than Oxford's Advanced learners' dictionary.

@DamkerngT. :O what's that?

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India I've only heard about it. I don't have it on my shelf. :-)

@Man_From_India It's my own concept. I may write a book about it one day. I think it may be useful for many learners out there.

Man_From_India

18:15

Same thing. I use longman online. I have advanced learner dictionary on my shelf.

Damkerng T.

I came up with this idea asking myself this question for years: Why can't we the learners use the language the way native speakers do?

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. in that case i will wait for it. It's worth waiting for.

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

To give you a hint, my very first answer, which is still very valid imo, is: because we don't allow ourselves to think the same way they do.

Man_From_India

I really mean it. Because I haven't studied English like a linguist n grammarian. But i love that language. I think there are others like me. Or others who want to just learn to sound correct. Your idea will be a great help for us.

@DamkerngT. It remind me something I was thinking today morning :)

In English literature u might find sentences "love is like a summer air."

But it's so different than indian thinking and an European thinking

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

18:22

For us sunny thing, summer is a pain. We love rain. It means completely different to us.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's very too.

Man_From_India

An European can never imagine it the way we do. For them cloud, rain mean different thing.

That's why "a man under shasow" means a corrupted man.

Damkerng T.

nods

Man_From_India

If tgat phrase was to be invented here, may be it would have meant something different :)

Damkerng T.

Cold would be a comfortable feeling in Thai, which is exactly the opposite of warm in a warm welcome in English. :-)

Man_From_India

18:24

Well, just my thought!

Culture, i think, influences language a lot.

Damkerng T.

I like the phrase a man under shadow!

Man_From_India

It shape one's language.

Damkerng T.

Indeed!

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. I don't think it's a set phrase, but the idea is similar :)

Good night!

Damkerng T.

Good night, and sleep tight!

Damkerng T.

19:26

1

Q: Why do Americans say Star Trek like Star Track?

Why do Americans say Star Trek like Star Track? Is this correct? Because the dictionary says /trek/. I heard several usual Americans say it this way.

american-english pronunciation

Hmm... I wonder if that is true.

Well, I'm pretty sure that it's not universally true. But maybe some people say it like "Star Track" indeed?

Could be a good hunt.

Back to prepositions...

> a) Then, he specifies several anchors by selecting elements of the page.

> b) Then, he specifies several anchors through selecting elements of the page.

It's quite obvious that by is more appropriate.

But!

What if it's like this:

> c) Then, he specifies several anchors through ~~selecting~~ elements of the page.

Sounds much better, right?

Transcript for