Room for YLearn and Todd Wilcox

YLearn

22:54

This room is to continue the discussion found here:

2

I have been waiting for you to divide this more into an actual question and answer before responding, but it doesn't look like that will happen. So, I guess I need to address your post in it's entirety. However, the site's strict management has been bothering me for a while so I tought I'd br...

In response to OP's comment about a dismissive attitude on this site, you wrote: "I personally don't see this played out as you describe." Maybe look through my history on NE.SE and see how I've been (from my point of view) rudely treated in a dismissive way, as if I'm a 15 year old who knows nothing about business networks. There are some NE.SE users with very high reps who maybe have let it go to their heads and have been very rude. To me that's a bad sign, since to whom does one turn when those at the top are part of the problem? — Todd Wilcox 2 days ago

@ToddWilcox, I am sorry you feel this way and I do take your comment seriously, so please don't take this the wrong way. I just spent the last 20-30 minutes going through all your answers and the comments on them and I don't see any trend of rude or dismissive behavior. It is also possible this took place in comments to other people's questions/answers, but I can't possibly be expected to try to track down every comment. Would it be possible to provide examples of the behavior you describe? — YLearn ♦ 2 days ago

Looks like a particular user who seemed to have an unexplained and mysterious vendetta against me has gone through and deleted almost all of the comments they have made on my answers and comments. I routinely see that same user being what could most generously described as "curt" to pretty much every new person to the site. It's not that this one person has been so rude that I pretty much can't come to NE.SE without getting stressed, it's that this person is seen as an asset to NE.SE and their attitude seems to be accepted and validated by the mods. It's a bad culture here. — Todd Wilcox yesterday

Doing my own research it seems like something has changed for the other user in question. The places where I would normally see their superior attitude now have either no content from them or much more polite content. So that's a very good sign and I guess my original comment on this answer is no longer as valid, but I will leave this all here becuase it's not so far back in the history here that this was a real problem and this question seems pretty crucial to NE.SE right now. — Todd Wilcox yesterday

@ToddWilcox, for the record, 2k+ users and mods can view deleted content. So my comment actually includes deleted content as I did go through any deleted comments. I don't know if they ever get purged, but a quick search showed that deleted comments stay around a long time. Here is a timestamp from one: deleted by YLearn♦ May 13 '13 at 4:28 So even if you can point me at an answer that you feel was treated poorly in this fashion, I should be able to see the comments. — YLearn ♦ yesterday

networkengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/17435/… — Todd Wilcox yesterday

@ToddWilcox first and explanation of what I see happening with the comments being deleted. It looks like you moved the conversation to chat when it became extended (thank you!), and this copied the contents of the comments to chat. You then deleted your comments. A month or so later, the other party noticed and removed their comments (as one side of the conversation makes no sense). The chat room however then was deleted due to inactivity. — YLearn ♦ 19 hours ago

Now, what I see in that exchange isn't what I would personally classify as rude or dismissive behavior on either side, although both sides may have gotten a bit frustrated with the other. This is one of those internet conversations I would chalk up as more of a "not quite getting each other's point of view" experiences. Personally I think I can see the points each party was trying to get across, but I don't feel either side really addressed the others points well. — YLearn ♦ 19 hours ago

Well Ylearn, I participate in a lot of SE communities, and for some reason NE is the only one where I think to myself "I don't have any reason to put up with this". If you see any validity to this meta question then it seems to me that you'd want to try to understand the point of view of the people who feel like there's no place for them at NE.SE. Or maybe you are happier staying smaller and cliquish so you know whom you are dealing with. I can't think of a better way to get my point of view across. — Todd Wilcox 13 hours ago

Looks like a particular user who seemed to have an unexplained and mysterious vendetta against me has gone through and deleted almost all of the comments they have made on my answers and comments. I routinely see that same user being what could most generously described as "curt" to pretty much every new person to the site. It's not that this one person has been so rude that I pretty much can't come to NE.SE without getting stressed, it's that this person is seen as an asset to NE.SE and their attitude seems to be accepted and validated by the mods. It's a bad culture here. — Todd Wilcox yesterday

I want to address your last comment first. While I agree this comment could be phrased much better and I can see how you could interpret it as you have, let me paraphrase how I understood that comment: “No, I don’t intentionally destroy things and since I know better than to damage an optic like that, it would be a really stupid thing for me to do.”

I can’t say whether your interpretation is correct or mine, however on the Internet where misunderstandings abound I prefer to err by giving the poster the benefit of the doubt.

That said, I feel every meta post is valid to some degree, and I do want to see this community grow and thrive. Clearly, based on the time I have invested in this, I appreciate your feedback and I am attempting to understand your point. I may not be expressing it well, but I feel you aren't getting my point either.

After going through the example you provided multiple times, I don't see the rudeness or you/your experience being dismissed. I have pointed out different problems that I see.

I too have been part of a number of SE communities as well as other online communities, I have moderated forums, and I have run my own forums at points.

If you could sit in the Teacher's Lounge for only an hour you would see true rudeness/disrespect all over the network on levels we have never to my knowledge seen here.

I have seen many conflicts and the majority are usually over some misunderstanding or where one or both parties have formed an opinion based on their (mis)perceptions of the situation or lack of information (especially true online, but offline as well).

I will grant that the person you were involved with has certain aspects of his personality that may rub certain other personalities the wrong way, namely a very high standard to be precise and a demand to back up statements made with fact/proof.

But this is also true of myself to a lesser degree and many of the best network engineers I know. In a group like this I expect to find more than our fair share.

Each community is unique and will be "flavored" by the people drawn to it. There are also certain personalities that don't feel as comfortable in certain situations/groups.

The reality is that there is no "clique" and to be absolutely clear you are more than welcome here (even if you didn't have your experience).

I know there are certain personalities that rub me the wrong way and I can think of a concrete example (which if you have been paying attention you can probably guess), but I still think there is room in this community for them as well if they are willing to "bend" a bit and make some effort to live up to the community's standards.

However, I do know I can't change your perceptions or how you feel, only you can do that. I for one regret that you don't feel like participating here and hope you change your mind on that stance.

Todd Wilcox

23:29

OMG that took me 20 minutes to get chat working. Are you still here?

YLearn

Yes, I am around.

Todd Wilcox

In my world, “No, I don’t intentionally destroy things and since I know better than to damage an optic like that, it would be a really stupid thing for me to do.” implies it would be a really stupid thing for anyone to do and therefore the question about whether anyone has done it is a stupid question.

YLearn

I disagree. It wouldn't be a stupid thing to do if you didn't know better.

But if you do know better, it is clearly a stupid thing to do.

Todd Wilcox

I remember having one of my answers described as "silly" in a comment and I know I'm not the only person who feel like when someone calls something you say or do silly, they are calling you silly.

Somehow, people don't talk like this on ANY other SE I've been on.

"a very high standard to be precise and a demand to back up statements made with fact/proof.
But this is also true of myself to a lesser degree and many of the best network engineers I know"

That seems like the exact criterion for admission into the NE.SE clique.

And while I don't disagree that those are good qualities for network engineers to have, being good at network engineering and being good at making people feel welcome on a stack exchange are not at all related skills.

YLearn

I will go back through your answers to look for the silly comment. I don't recall one off hand, but I won't say there isn't one as my memory if fallible.

Todd Wilcox

23:35

People on the Math.SE definitely have high standards for precision.

YLearn

And I have seen all sorts of comments on other SE sites that are far more severe than the use of the word silly. If you are offended though, please do flag it.

Todd Wilcox

When they feel like an answer is incorrect, there are no ad-hominem statements or attitude, it's almost always a gentle pointing out of how the statement might not hold up.

YLearn

There isn't a clique as you so often reference. Most of us have been at odds with each other at one time or another. I can point out some where Mike and I got into it even.

Todd Wilcox

Here's an excellent example of a mature and welcoming way to tell me I'm wrong from just half an hour ago: "@ToddWilcox: it certainly is possible to totally order ℝ2 (say, lexicographically), and it's even possible to put an ordering on it so that it's order-isomorphic to ℝ. But there's no way make an ordering compatible with the usual topology, as can be seen from the fact that e.g. removing a single point from ℝ2 doesn't make it topologically disconnected"

YLearn

Agreed.

Todd Wilcox

23:38

I feel, and the other communities I'm in play it this way, that if you're going to correct someone, the burden of "proof" is on YOU, not the person who made the assertion to be corrected.

Saying, "It's ridiculous to think that a Sonicwall and an ASA 5505 can do the same things" is not welcoming. Saying "Can Sonicwalls really do <insert obscure ASA 5505 feature here>? They couldn't last time I worked on a Sonicwall".

errr.. is welcoming.

And asking someone to prove in a comment that and ASA 5505 and a Sonicwall can really do the same things is clearly obnoxious because even if it were practical to list every single feature of both devices, it would certainly not work in a comment.

YLearn

Keep in mind, that on a more established site, with a larger community and many users with 10k+ reputation, the moderators aren't having to handle everything that comes up.

Todd Wilcox

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Like, it's ok for some rudeness to be overlooked (maybe encourage) because the mods are so busy?

YLearn

If you are going to compare NE to Math, you need to understand that they are dramatically different.

And your quote is simply not accurate.

Todd Wilcox

I'm comparing the way people interact, not the whole thing.

Well I don't have access to deleted comments.

YLearn

Yes, but if you have limited time because you are the only one handling everything, you don't always have the extra time to be extra welcoming...if the workload is spread among dozens, it is much easier.

Here is Mike's original comment to that answer: These days, ASA has dynamic routing protocols, qos features, and of course firewall rules. It's please be specific if you think the ASA is missing something. That said, the most basic problem is an ambiguous question

What in that is rude or dissmissive?

Todd Wilcox

23:45

That wasn't the rude part, although he did completely fail to understand my point. I didn't write anything about the ASA 5505 missing anything.

I'm not sure where he got that.

YLearn

Hence my comment of This is one of those internet conversations I would chalk up as more of a "not quite getting each other's point of view" experiences.

In my reading, it seems like the two of you were almost talking past each other.

Todd Wilcox

Was that not the comment thread where he called me silly?

YLearn

No use of the word silly in the entire converstation.

Todd Wilcox

Well it's somewhere out there.

YLearn

And I won't dismiss the possibility. I know he has used that before and it is one of those words that is entirely tame to some people/groups and offensive to others. I have deleted some comments where I have seen it.

Todd Wilcox

23:48

I have no need to be on NE.SE - it sadly does not help me in the way that I thought it would.

I would like to have been able to answer question on NE.SE, since I do know a lot.

YLearn

The most recent use was with someone I am currently having issues with, but in that case I feel it is generally warranted.

Todd Wilcox

The problem is the questions I'm most interested in answering are deemed OT.

YLearn

Which ones?

Todd Wilcox

The ones that are about interesting topology that is not over my head and often Cisco specific. Almost all of the questions that really interest me have been homework.

Probably because when you do Cisco on the job, you don't need to go to NE.SE to get help most of the time.

Those of us gainfully employed by a company that can afford Cisco usually have SmartNet and the TAC is a better source for troubleshooting than a web site most of the time.

YLearn

Unfortunately, most people asking homework questions are looking for us to give them the answers. Not to learn themselves.

You find TAC helpful? Not many people I know do anymore.

Todd Wilcox

23:51

That's a problem on all SE sites where there are classes related to the topic.

Well, the last time I called it was hardware failure which they quickly diagnosed and then got a replacement overnighted.

YLearn

Understood, but if those same people came to ask about the concepts behind the question, they would typically be welcome.

Todd Wilcox

Before that it's been a few years but at that time it was remote in for a few filtered "show runs" and then "there's your problem right there".

YLearn

Usually when I call them now, I get the "please attach the output of the show tech, show version, and half a dozen other show commands that are all already included in the show tech to begin with.

Todd Wilcox

It does seem like every support service declines in quality over time.

YLearn

In over 50% of the cases in the last several years, I have had to ask for my cases to get reassigned.

Todd Wilcox

23:54

Maybe all their good people went to meraki.

YLearn

Unfortunately no. There was once a time when everyone at Cisco TAC had at least a CCNA if not a CCNP/CCIE. They no longer require that....

Todd Wilcox

This all started with the question about whether NE.SE should be more welcoming. If there is any feeling that the answer to that question is "yes", then I feel like my feedback is at least more data.

YLearn

Meraki support is still largely independent.

Todd Wilcox

If the community is what it wants to be, then there's no need to worry about any of my issues with it.

YLearn

And I do appreciate it.

No, don't feel that way. Feedback always helps.

And I think you could find a place here...so don't give up entirely.

Todd Wilcox

23:56

My biggest thought about this is that it feels elitist.

YLearn

We have gotten better in many areas, and yes there are still more to work on.

Todd Wilcox

It doesn't seem like homework is excluded because of fear of cheating. The vibe is more that homework is excluded because it's beneath the community.

YLearn

You know, that is a sentiment that has been leveled at almost every network community targetted at professionals.....starting with NANOG.

Todd Wilcox

And yet so many of them allow homework and just try to deal with it and have the same old argument about allowing homework questions every 3 to six months.

But they allow it.

YLearn

Some do, some don't. I can find you examples on meta on a number of sites.

Todd Wilcox

23:58

I'm sure.

YLearn

We generally don't try to re-invent the wheel for every decision, we often look at other sites to see how they have handled the issue.

Or made their decisions.

Todd Wilcox

I guess my point is, IF you wanted to welcome more people, I think the homeworkers should be at the top of the list.

They want to BECOME network engineers.

YLearn

No, unfortunately many of them don't. They simply have to pass the class for their major.

Todd Wilcox

Their questions would be more interesting and relevant than people trying to rip off their cable modem providers, and the experienced people are more likely to learn something from them.

Who has to pass a cisco class for their major? Man college has changed.

Transcript for

Room for YLearn and Todd Wilcox