The Nineteenth Byte

lyxal

00:00

code golf brainrot so real I think theseus is a synonym for online interpreter regardless of language :p

(btw I made a chatroom for Jalapeno - chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/157573/spicy-golf)

noodle person

Does any existing golf language contain inverses?

emanresu A

not as far as I know

a few golflangs have specific "under" operations e.g. transpose, reverse, etc but nothing general

noodle person

I wonder if a language somewhere between Vyxal and Uiua would be better than Vyxal at golf

emanresu A

probably :3

There's a lot of room for improvement on both ends

lyxal

By the time you've spent bytes on inverses you might as well have added a digraph for it :p

Or a monograph even

emanresu A

00:12

It's a lot more powerful than you might think

noodle person

^

I think Under would be a very interesting thing to see in a golflang.

lyxal

@emanresuA powerful no doubt

But short is what I question

noodle person

Even just structural under, which is simpler to implement but less powerful, would probably be golfier than the alternative in some cases.

Might not be worth the implementation effort to add to Vyxal currently, though.

Wouldn't make much sense with some other things about Vyxal.

emanresu A

I would not recommend starting with (either) vyxal

noodle person

Lol

I'm not going to make this. Might sketch out some ideas but I don't really want to make a golflang.

emanresu A

00:16

fair :3

lyxal

If it's next gen you want, inverses aren't the way to go. Non determinism is

Nekomata for example

emanresu A

There are a lot of unexplored avenues. I'd caution against pushing any specific one too far

noodle person

I agree

emanresu A

and especially against attempting to shoehorn them in to an existing language without sufficient consideration

noodle person

At some point I did start making a Japt-like language with terser syntax, which I would like to finish eventually, though I haven't worked on it for a while.

emanresu A

00:18

Sounds interesting :3

lyxal

@noodleperson tbh I don't think anything will be added for a while

I've kinda sorta moved on from golflang design

And when I say kinda sorta I mean I have

My current language sketches are all practical :p

noodle person

@lyxal Same

Hello, World!

01:02

0

A: "Hello, World!"

Self-Modifying Trilangle, 29 bytes <_.)>(o@.#\,../␀!dlroW ,olleH (␀ should be an actual NUL byte) :3

Bbrk24

This language is mostly a joke

noodle person

02:23

Lol cool

l4m2

03:06

Why it feels that "If x=1, then x=2 is false, while "x≠1 or x=2" is undecided? Any paper/blog discussing about the implication of for-all in word "if"?

RubenVerg

04:12

kinda want to go back to working on sttl

(sttl)

it's currently very unpowerful

i have some ideas but there's some stuff i'm not sure how to deal with

like, functions naturally would be represented as just sets of pairs

but then how do i write a function with an infinite set argument type?

New Posts

0

Q: Half Price for Every Second Pizza

PizzaTata is a popular restaurant specializing in pizza delivery. Customers can order pizzas by phone. And each order is charged by the sum of pizza prices and the delivery fee. Pizza Prices: The cost of each individual pizza. Delivery Fee: A fixed fee per order, regardless of the number of pizz...

Redz

wild question title

ATaco

Wait it's not a spam

Redz

@ATaco EXACTLY

ATaco

That actually messed with me

Redz

04:19

I thought the same thing but no it's just a cool question

Themoonisacheese

08:17

@lyxal antifreeze 19¾ ?

@NewPosts also don't bite this noob, they did use the sandbox :v

lyxal

10:01

@Themoonisacheese no

lyxal

10:15

(the joke being that I can't)

@hyperneutrino funny haha room owner room machine broke

Needs unfreezening

It will always confound me that I count towards moderator activity for freezing purposes but I don't have any other moderator abilities there

Like why even consider me a moderator for antifreeze purposes at that point?

When I can't even unfreeze it myself

SE chat is a very sensibly designed service yes

Themoonisacheese

isn't there some bs that since you're ♦ you could in theory take over the room?

lyxal

Well see I'm actually not considered diamond there

Well not outside of counting towards moderator activity

And being allowed to have unlimited edits

But that's it

Now, if I was a room owner of the room I'd have full mod powers

Because apparently being room owner of a private room enables diamond abilities in a private room that isn't on your site

(or unparanted)

But that's also outside of what I can do without a code golf mod intervening

And at that point they might as well just unfreeze the room

So it's a situation where we're powerless to use the room dedicated to room ownership :p

We love SE so very much

mousetail

11:05

Why, when I search for BitCycle, do I see my own fork and not the original repo?

lyxal

what page did you search from?

mousetail

just duckduckgo for "bitcycle language"

lyxal

possibly because the original bitcycle is a folder in a repo not named bitcycle

admittedly, the original shows 4 results down

lyxal

11:55

@lyxal speaking of, I've published my initial specs for what would have been Vyxal 5: github.com/lyxal/Valiance-Lang

it's a very bare bones idea right now

but it's getting there

Simd

13:00

Can it really be true that python multiprocessing pickles anything you want to pass to a worker separately for each worker and in serial??

This doesn't seem well designed

mousetail

No shit Sherlock

Themoonisacheese

@Simd how else would it work in a languages that wasn't designed for speed in the first place

Simd

@Themoonisacheese they could pickle it once!

Why repickle over and over again?

Themoonisacheese

well no, now there's several threads doing god knows what and the object may change

Simd

@mousetail 😁

mousetail

13:14

Normally the data you pass to each worker would be different right?

Simd

@Themoonisacheese if I use pool.map the object can't change can it?

@mousetail yes that is true. I guess I don't know how to say it's the same thing

mousetail

If it's the same for every object in the pool you can set it as a global or local variable and not pass it as an argument at all

(Assuming Linux or Mac)

If you are on windows a local variable will not work but a global one will

Simd

How would I pass it to a worker like that? It's a function that I am passing which takes a few seconds to pickle

I am on Linux

Themoonisacheese

@Simd yeah but the runtime doesn't know that

(also i think it still could)

mousetail

@Simd Why do you need to pass it as an argument? You can just reference it without passing it

Simd

13:19

@mousetail I have a function that computers a lambda function. It takes about 30 seconds to run. So I want to do that once and pass the lambda function to all the workers

I don't know how to make the lambda function visible to the workers otherwise

mousetail

So what you actually need to pass is not the function but the data contained in a local variable in the function?

Can you extract that part?

Otherwise you can assign the lambda to a global variable instead of passing it as an argument, on Linux both should work as long as it's initialized before the fork and not explicitly passed

Simd

@mousetail I could try but it's not trivial as the lambda function is quite complicated it and relies on external c++ code

@mousetail I will try that, thank you

Themoonisacheese

if your codebase has c++ code i think it'd be more efficient to simply do the expensive stuff in c++ to begin with

Simd

I don't understand how an independent process can access a global variable created before it is started

@mousetail could you explain that?

mousetail

The processes are not independent until the fork call

Simd

13:24

And then they all get a copy of the global variables?

mousetail

Yep

Simd

Thank you. I wish there was something I could read to learn about these things. I don't find the multiprocessing docs helpful

Can I declare a global variable inside a method in a class?

Themoonisacheese

@Simd pretty sure you can declare anything global

it's not exactly great practice to use globals at all as i'm sure you're aware but perf is perf

Simd

Thanks. I will give it a go

@Themoonisacheese yes. I was trying to avoid it

Hmm... Maybe initializer is the thing to do?

att

13:56

apparently i havent done python in too long

Simd

while I am pushing python to do things it doesn't want to, how would you convert np.array(['1e401', '1e000', '1e401', '1e000'], dtype=np.float128) into a list of integers?

Themoonisacheese

14:43

@Simd 10^401 is not representable as an integer

Simd

14:59

@Themoonisacheese it definitely is!

Try 10**401

Neil

@Themoonisacheese what you have found is that it's not representable as a float64

in fact it's not representable as a float128, but its first few digits will be 1000000000 so nobody really minds

att

python ints are bigints

apparently my installation of numpy doesn't have float128 huh

att

15:24

@Simd [int(n) for n in _] maybe

Seggan

@lyxal help, now im in a rabbit hole reading about non deterministic languages

Simd

15:43

@att are you on a Mac?

Themoonisacheese

@Neil curse the lack of types

rather type annotations for literals but whatever

Newly Featured Posts

16:24

1

Q: Card-Jitsu Part 2: Make a Card-Jitsu clone

Part 1 is available here. Card-Jitsu was a mini card-game based on Rock, Paper, Scissors available on the children MMO game Club Penguin. A lot of footage of this game is available online, and may be useful if you want to know what the actual game looks like. However, you obviously don't need to ...

code-golf game card-games

mousetail

17:10

Currently, 4/10 starred messages are mine. I wonder if anyone has ever achieved 10/10

emanresu A

17:31

I've had 6

Rydwolf's had like 7 before :p

mousetail

17:53

Challenge idea: N trains with given length are queued to cross a N by N grid of tracks. How long at minimum will it take them all to cross?

Simd

18:08

@mousetail very nice

Will you specify where each one starts and has to end?

mousetail

They will all start in a line along the left and bottom edge

Simd

And go in a straight line?

mousetail

Yep

Simd

Half on each edge?

mousetail

Yep

Simd

18:20

Do the ones on the same edge all start at the same place?

Or are they spread out along the edge

mousetail

==>....
 =>....
==>....
  >....
   ^^^^
   | |
   |

Something like this, they start in a line facing the same direction

parallel, not behind eachother

Simd

Got you

mousetail

I hope there is not some kind of simple formula for it that simplifies it so much that it becomes a duplicate of something far more basic again

Simd

You should definitely pose it as a challenge

mousetail

Would you answer if I did?

Simd

18:28

@mousetail if it was code challenge, probably

Not code golf

DLosc

@mousetail Sounds a bit like the game Rush Hour

mousetail

I'm not sure how I could score it as a code challenge

Simd

I guess there would be two parameters, number of trains and train length?

mousetail

Probably just a single array for simplicity

Simd

@mousetail minimum time for all trains to complete?

mousetail

18:29

The optimal answer is pretty easy to find though

Simd

Ah ok

mousetail

At least I think for most cases, though I think the problem is most likely NP-complete in the general case

Simd

19:59

@mousetail I didn't get that far it doesn't look easy in the general case

mousetail

Usually I'm able to quite easily visualize a solution I think is likely optimal, though I can't prove it, or know an algorithm

att

22:06

@Simd no, windows 11

ATaco

Windows 11 is what finally convinced me to use Linux

Ginger

22:18

true...

anything but 11

noodle person

11!!

lyxal

I like to 11

att

22:33

unfortunately i like it when i can assume programs support my os

DLosc

^

Even when the OS in question is buggy and annoying

Ginger

~~hey, all you need is Proton and five hours~~

rydwolf

Ginger

what

DLosc

@noodleperson 11

Seggan

22:56

@Ginger liar

it takes two days, not 5 hours

and it still doesnt work right

emanresu A

@Ginger get Lego Star Wars to stop crashing then we'll talk

Ginger

I've only expended like two hours on that

smh

noodle person

@DLosc Lol, I was going for Mod Abuse 11

rydwolf

23:11

@Ginger they sponsored a hackathon here

Ginger

I see

lyxal

@DLosc 11 = 3 + EIGHT

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