The Nineteenth Byte

lyxal

00:09

mfw something suggests using poetry but my local installation of poetry is so fricked I can't use it :p

Ginger

~~would that something perchance be Vyxal Bot~~

fuck. I have become the very thing I mock

lyxal

@Ginger no

Ginger

I should probably write a README for VB3 if you're intending to actually contribute to it

lyxal

I do intend

it's just not what I'm working on rn

emanresu A

01:06

Hi I've found a new pair of tags to complain about: simulation and algorithm

both are maybe used for "execute a specific sequence of steps", but often not even then, and that could apply to half of the challenges here honestly

lyxal

They sound like meta tags

stackoverflow.blog/2010/08/07/the-death-of-meta-tags

emanresu A

yep :3

lyxal

A lot of other tags would fit that prescription here

Honestly, unironic take, maybe it'd be better to have only tags for OWC and potentially language tags too

And things like source-layout, restricted-source too

tags like math, string, integers could go too

Have only tags that objectively and helpfully define attributes of the challenge

Rather than high level categories

emanresu A

To be fair, we have lower standards for tags here, considering that unlike most SE sites it's difficult bordering on impossible to objectively define attributes of a question

lyxal

decision problem and Kolmogorov complexity are examples of objective attributes

Or rather challenge types

Yeah they're challenge types not attributes

OWC and challenge type tags are fine

emanresu A

01:20

Those high-level categories still serve a fair amount of purpose - [string] tells you that a challenge involves string manipulation, [primes] tells you that a challenge requires computing primes in some way - and when searching through challenges, which is the main purpose of tags, they do do their job - they help massively with looking for duplicates or related challenges. I do agree that there's a distinction between "objective attribute of the challenge" and "high-level category", but (cont)

those high-level categories are still useful

@lyxal The definition of meta-tag used here is "doesn't clearly describe the content of the question", and I'd argue most of the tags we have do.

lyxal

It also contains:

> If the tag can't work as the only tag on a question, it's probably a meta-tag. Every tag you use should be able to work, more or less, as the only tag on a question.

OWC requirement aside, a challenge type tag could stand on its own

emanresu A

... you know that's not how cgcc works

lyxal

Something like math I'd say couldn't

Unrelated String

like with half of the things for SE in general

lyxal

@emanresuA that's why I said OWC requirement aside

emanresu A

01:24

@lyxal sometimes there's nothing more specific to use

lyxal

Of course non OWC tags can't be the only tag

@emanresuA which is handled by having an OWC

it's a nice fall back

emanresu A

wdym? I'm saying there are quite a few questions tagged with just code-golf math, because there's no more specific subset of math applicable to the challenge

lyxal

So under the assumption that there doesn't need to be an OWC, but that posts can effectively have 0 tags, I think one could say math is a sort of meta tag

@emanresuA I'm saying drop the math altogether

Have code golf as the only tag

From the title and challenge description it should be obvious it's about math

emanresu A

That's not the purpose of tags lol

lyxal

I believe it should be :p

Unrelated String

01:27

tags are a convenience, not extra information

emanresu A

^

Neil

@thejonymyster Retina 0.8.2, 10 bytes

lyxal

@UnrelatedString then there should be no problem with the algorithm tag or the simulation tag

math, in a similar way, could apply to over half the challenges on the site

Unrelated String

20 mins ago, by emanresu A

both are maybe used for "execute a specific sequence of steps", but often not even then, and that could apply to half of the challenges here honestly

lyxal

math is also used as a general subject

emanresu A

01:30

There's a spectrum of how much information a tag provides about a challenge, and at least those two are at the "almost nothing" end

Unrelated String

@lyxal math is a bad example and imo it's kinda borderline but still way better than algorithm

lyxal

Like I said there's room for challenge type tags

But I would be interested in exploring a purging of a larger set of tags than just simulation and algorithm

I think that's my ultimate point

emanresu A

@lyxal Aside from the occasional case of people putting code-golf on challenges without explicitly specifying a winning criterion in the body, tags don't add any extra information to the challenge. What they do do is a) aid searching b) on pages where only the title+tags are shown, e.g. the main page, provide some extra context, especially since our titles tend to lean more "interesting description" than "technical description"

@lyxal Agreed, but I'm not in favour of purging non-objective tags entirely

lyxal

@emanresuA What's to say I wouldn't want to find a post that's about implementing a specified algorithm or simulating something?

Algorithm and simulation would help me search for those kinds of posts

emanresu A

There's definitely a niche for at least the first one, but it should probably be e.g. a separate tag [specific-algorithm] to avoid the confusion that's resulted in 440 questions tagged algorithm. I don't know about the second but there might be something there as well. But currently, those searches are next to useless because of the vagueness of the existing tags

lyxal

01:36

Well that's what I'm saying about tags like math. Even though it's sometimes the only applicable tag, there's still a level of vagueness about it

emanresu A

Fair enough, and I agree that's one of the vaguer tags, but I still think it's nowhere near as bad as algorithm/simulation

Unrelated String

03:43

@DLosc loud incorrect buzzer

(granted, it's constrained enough that a small golf to one of your previous attempts also ties)

lyxal

I went to the messages surrounding the one you replied to and:

Jul 7, 2023 at 14:20, by RubenVerg

til your name is Lyxal and not iyxal

I did not need to remember that was said

Unrelated String

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

@DLosc but yeah, you can do this with empty groups if you leave one as a "flag" to "set" anywhere that would generate an equals sign then end the program with a disjunction of backreferences to each of those empty groups

Unrelated String

06:24

The whole reason I got stuck in this rabbit hole in the first place was because I thought Regenerate would be a fun language to do the Nice challenge in, until I realized there's no recursion or .NET-style balancing groups, which then just got me so stuck on wondering if it's possible at all to generate Dyck words... I'm pretty sure it's not possible to do with clean output, but

okay I've been TRYING to do it with extra junk for uhh

3 hours

and this is the closest I've gotten

ato.pxeger.com/…

gn y'all 🙃

emanresu A

nice, g'night :3

Unrelated String

:3

for some reason it just. refuses to let the depth go above 1

and I have no idea if that's a flaw of the program or something inherent to Regenerate's execution strategy

OHHH maybe it's uhhh

it is not uhhh

yeah good night

Unrelated String

06:40

...and then I tried constraining the length, and it just timed out...

oh that part's because of how stupid a hack I'm trying to use to do that lmao

like this may as well be the infinite loop solution I just posted

yeah i'm actually eeping now :3

i have gazed into the abyss too long

emanresu A

third time's the charm :3

Unrelated String

was nearly asleep until I woke up remembering that. I can just make it loop that many times instead of making this stupid counter to make extra loops fail LMAO

and... yeah it literally can't make them nest and it is just my program's fault somehow

gnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

nini

emanresu A

07:00

... fourth time's the charm? g'night :3

Unrelated String

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I FINALLY GOT IT

ato.pxeger.com/…

Junk: ((${$2+#7-#6}!0)(X{1-$2}!)(($4!)(\)?{1-#3})(\({1-#6})!)){$~1*2+1}$9{$2}
Actual Dyck word: "$5"

The problem all along was literally just that I had assumed that negative repetitions were empty instead of failing 😭😭😭

ONE exclamation mark was all it took

emanresu A

nice :3 now actually go sleep once you've posted it

Unrelated String

I don't even have anywhere but TNB to pist it :D

I am crashing RIGHT now

after getting out of bed literally three times already to try shit

:3

(also it even works without the length constraint :D)

rydwolf

09:53

Got to play around with liquid nitrogen

KGB has an event called LN2 where we make liquid nitrogen ice cream (using equipment from CMU's experimental physics lab class), but we also have hours and little supervision

We did have one prof there, who's also our organization's advisor

I did not take the same approach she recommended when it came to safety

To put it mildly

I did some extremely cool stuff, she was really not happy at first but quickly realized I was too much of a force of nature to do anything but watch with awe and horror

At one point I accidentally made a bomb

Or at least, a very very pressurized soda bottle

mousetail 'he-him'

Apperently a soda can can hold 20 atmospheres of pressure

Unrelated String

12:49

@rydwolf ahahahahaha

I feel like that's just what everyone goes through knowing you :P

lyxal

gotta love how the google youtube api requires an api key just to get the video title from a video id

noembed.com the real mvp

Unrelated String

💀

yeah this is why everyone loves yt-dlp so much :P

scraping for the win

lyxal

well see I can't exactly use yt-dlp

given that I need this on a frontend

and uh yt-dlp, from experience, is a backend thing :p

I just need the title

Unrelated String

ah lol

lyxal

http://noembed.com/embed?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4jXEuIHY9ic

beautiful

exactly what I need

Unrelated String

12:55

sweet

Unrelated String

13:23

@UnrelatedString ...somehow I already had a whole 96 tabs to close mostly just from this after I COMPLETELY nuked my tabs in this window (where by completely nuked I mean procrastinated on restoring because I have been planning to set some bookmarks in folders and then actually remove most if not all of my pinned tabs and try to keep myself to only 2 or 3 browser windows at a time so I'm less distractible)

huh

Anyways while it's fresh in my mind, I guess I may as well explain how the program works :P

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

RemiND me WHat MY PassWord Is Unfortunately, I've forgotten what my password is. I wrote it down somewhere, but, because I know it is bad security to just have passwords written down, I instead wrote it down in hints. In these hints, I wrote down two things about the casings of each letter in my ...

Unrelated String

((${$2+#7-#6}!0) [...] )*$9{$2} is basically a while loop, where $2 is a decimal number tracking the cumulative number of open parens minus close parens and $9 always fails because there is no ninth capture group, so $9($2) succeeds if and only if $2 is zero and the program just keeps trying different numbers of repetitions of the Kleene star but only outputting balanced results

(X{1-$2}!) is capture group 3, which is just a goofy little hack for testing if the depth is nonzero--X{1-$2} is X if the depth is 0, empty if the depth is 1, and failing if the depth is greater than 1, so the length of (X{1-$2}!) is 1 if the depth is 0 and 0 otherwise

(($4!) [...] ) is... I'm actually not entirely sure why I have to do it that way or how I even thought to, but it, uhh...

Oh yeah, it's an artifact from when I was making the depth start at 1 or trying to force it to terminate at -1

So un-nesting it just adds an extra junk opening paren to every output but doesn't change anything else fundamentally, and if the depth calculation was reordered to the end of the loop it would be fine

so (($4!) [...] ) is itself capture group 4, and ($4!) is capture group 5, which I treat as the actual final output after the loop is done so that there's a lag in building it--every character that gets added is in limbo in $4 before the next evaluation of groups 4 and 5 saves the previous $4 into $5

(\)?{1-#3}) is group 6, which optionally adds a closing paren if group 3 is empty (i.e. the depth is nonzero)

and (\({1-#6}) is group 7, which adds an opening paren if and only if group 6 is empty, using length/repetition instead of a normal | so group 2 has an updated count

and that about does it

Simd

16:08

@UnrelatedString what this about?

Seggan

16:27

@rydwolf nice! always wanted to do that

Unrelated String

18:26

@Simd Generating Dyck words in Regenerate, an esolang DLosc made that’s basically a regex flavor that outputs its potential full matches instead of matching an input

It’s more powerful than true regular expressions because it does have backreferences, but its one and only ability to actually store state without outputting that state is by using empty groups as Boolean flags that can’t be unset once set except by backtracking

I suspect it’s TC, but it’s still completely unusable for a lot of challenges without lenient I/O

For like 5 minutes I thought I had a concept for translating FRACTRAN into Regenerate last night but then it just completely left my mind

Like a lot of it should be very simple considering Regenerate’s arithmetic expressions do support modulo, but the thing that clicked was how to actually implement the main loop and I can’t even guess how I thought I was going to do that

…I guess just with a chain of match length conditionals the same way as I did with the Dyck words lol

Okay now to eat lunch before I start actually implementing this on my phone because I would SO do that if I don’t get up now

Neil

19:01

where are vyxal's flags documented? I can't seem to find anything

Ginger

v2 or v3?

Simd

@UnrelatedString TC just means Top Cat to me (not really :) )

CMQ given a square matrix, is there a non brute force at to see if you can permute the rows and columns to make it symmetric?

emanresu A

19:39

v2? vyxal.pythonanywhere.com/?v=2&c=1#WyJoIiwiIiwiIiwiIiwiNiJd

v3? sorta self-documenting in the online interpreter

Ginger

^

Neil

19:54

thanks

Sandbox Posts

21:38

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

How many 2x4s can you make from a log? code-golf geometry You have a pile of logs that you want to mill into two-by-four inch boards to build a new stand for your grilled-cheese sandwich business. You've counted and measured all the logs, but can you get all the lumber you need out of them? Chall...

New Posts

23:16

I'd like to eat butter like a butteronaire

lyxal

23:57

> build a new stand for your grilled-cheese sandwich business

topical given what I'm listening to

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