The Nineteenth Byte

thejonymyster

00:12

long time no me i know but ive been having Programmer Urges again and i had a challenge idea - the trouble is i dont know if its actually tenable. one of those questions of infinities i dont know how to answer... so before i foolishly draft im gonna post about it here

challenge idea: remove vowels from input string - except "half of the time", y is counted as a vowel, and the rest of the time it isnt

specifically like, deterministically, open-ended-function

first sort of train of thought was that that's kind of unobservable for inputs with no y, or its nondeterministic in a boring way, so im wondering: 1. is there a (terse) way to phrase it so that its sort of like, theres a partition of all the strings such that half of them have ys in the input which are removed in the output, and then theres the rest of them in the other half (either no y to start with or its there but remains unremoved)

Ginger

now there's a name I haven't seen in a long time

thejonymyster

2. if it exists, is that Possible / well defined

3. is it trivial lol

^^^ :) good to see you too

Ginger

welcome back lmao

thejonymyster

never ever get a job; it will keep you from funny code golf and ninteteenth bite

Ginger

damn, it's been almost exactly one year since your last message

thejonymyster

00:19

gdi why didnt i wait

Ginger

five days too early

thejonymyster

flagging my messages for mods to come delete them

i did get a neat music rec from one of yas while i was out, that was fun

ATaco

Oh my gosh, It's nearly Advent of Code isn't it!

2

Ginger

I can move them to the trash now :3

thejonymyster

^_^; maybe not

lyxal

00:21

@thejonymyster you called?

Ginger

phenomenal cosmic power etc etc

thejonymyster

ruh roh

Ginger

lotta stuff happened over the last year

thejonymyster

anything good? :)

Ginger

uhhhhhh I'm a room owner now

and a girl

thejonymyster

00:23

oh thank goodness

i forget if ive mentioned my girl/not girl status in here

ATaco

Can I get chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/131933/advent-of-code 11'd?

Ginger

and we have a child site

ATaco

There's a Pronoun userscript these days

Ginger

@thejonymyster 👀 I don't think so

thejonymyster

@Ginger well ok i was here for that lol

Ginger

00:24

the pronoun userscript isn't a new development, I just rewrote it because it was broken lol

thejonymyster

or i was lurking at least anyway

Ginger

@thejonymyster oh right

thejonymyster

@Ginger oh, okay. Good.

Ginger

you are an enigma

lyxal

one of these things is not like the other

thejonymyster

00:28

i'd reckon they both aren't like the other

in that they are different things

lyxal

one is a subset of both

thejonymyster

so you do know about sets

@thejonymyster help me with this

:P

lyxal

11.5 bytes

thejonymyster

lmao

Ginger

oh also we did another Vyxal

ATaco

00:30

@thejonymyster What's stopping one from doing s=>s.replace(/y/ig,c=>Math.random()>.5?c:"")

thejonymyster

ideally id like it to be deterministic

like open ended function style

im missing like, the language i need to describe what im trying to do haha

lyxal

Vyxal, 92 bits2, 11.5 bytes: 'A¬;:\y=TIh¤Ȧ (vyncoded)

ATaco

Even still, what's stopping them just seeding an RNG?

thejonymyster

@thejonymyster this version

ATaco

I suspect you want them to actually do something more interesting then that, but golfers optimize the fun out of anything

thejonymyster

00:32

like im just not sure if what im saying like, properly tracks

maybe if i give a more concrete example...

ATaco

Do you want it to need like, a concrete rule other than a coin flip?

lyxal

or do you want just half of y's removed?

ATaco

So a user could post Removes all ys in words with 2 or more vowels, which removes ~50% of ys in a target data set

thejonymyster

one sec lemme
test somethign

lets say there are only these six strings in existence:
`hey` `why` `ploy` `coy` `box` `hat`
a valid function might take those and output (respectively)
`h` `wh` `pl` `cy` `bx` `ht`
because the first three remove the y, and the last three Dont remove the y (regardless of if theres a y to begin with)

now lets say theres the regular infinitely many strings that there are - can we extend the challenge to that?

also hello dr wolf its me again - what happened to scroll chat or whatever qq :P

att

you can make a bijection between ys that are removed vs not

ATaco

00:36

That sounds like you could also just do (Removes ys from every second word)

att

but there are very unsatisfying ways to do that

thejonymyster

@att thats the sort of thing i am looking for yes

@att and thats the unfortunate news lol

ATaco

I do like the concept of forcing users to make silly grammar rules

lyxal

would not just "remove 50% of y's" work as well?

no grammar rules, just the first 50%

ATaco

CMC: Confirm that a word follows "I before E except after C"

att

00:38

you can just remove the first one

thejonymyster

@lyxal i think that fails because theres all those strings with no ys

lyxal

assuming all vowels are removed as well

thejonymyster

@att i should be clear - within a string, you either remove all the ys or dont remove any

@thejonymyster if you remove 50% of these ys you dont get the same halfiness

att

ok, so you can remove them if the first letter is y

thejonymyster

im not smart enough to know if that works but i believe you

att

00:41

there are only countably many finite-length strings

lyxal

@ATaco I so badly wanted to try this with a Joeasus cheese (i.e. literally writing I comes before E except after C), but of course, LLMs don't play nice

att

so you can partition that into any two infinite sets and there will be a bijection

thejonymyster

is joasus determanistic? im a little confused if its an llm lol

lyxal

it is

thejonymyster

^^^ ahh nod

ATaco

00:43

It's deterministic, (But will throw you for a loop with inputs)

thejonymyster

bwuhaw haw haw

lyxal

I set the temperature to 0, so programs will always return the same result

thejonymyster

@ATaco does this mean that after c, e must be before i?

or just that the rule no longer (necessarily) applies after c

ATaco

A pair of an i and an e MUST be in the order of ie except immediately following a c, where it MUST be ei

thejonymyster

thank you

why is this so hard lol

att

00:50

what's expected for ieie

ATaco

Invalid.

lyxal

That actually makes my answer shorter

Thank you

Vyxal, 78 bits2, 9.75 bytes: `cei`o‛eic¬ (vyncoded)

Remove instances of cei and check for remaining ei

att

regex cie|ei should be enough then i think

ATaco

Matches cei

att

oops

ATaco

00:56

Regex Positive Match, 23 bytes. ^(.(?!=cie|(?<!c)ei))*$

att

cie|[^c]ei ?

ATaco

ceie

Fails for ei

I might post this as an actual challenge, it seems to have "More than 0 depth"

There's a related challenge, but a different one

thejonymyster

i got ^((?!(?<!c)ei|cie).)*$

oh i think thats identical to yours just inverseded haha

ATaco

Oh it's identical but mine had a typo lmao

thejonymyster

CMC: confirm if a regex confirms i before e except after c

@lyxal fails for (words such as) deficient

lyxal

01:15

Bleugh

Vyxal, 137 bits2, 17.125 bytes: `cei`o‛eic¬?`cie`c¬∧ (vyncoded)

thejonymyster

congrats on passing your english class (which is founded on lies but good for your gpa)

this fails for nonwords with eceii in them but i'll spare you that one haha

New Posts

0

Q: Spellcheck I Before E

Background As the old saying goes, "I before E, except after C". Whilst we already know exactly how true that saying is, I am a stickler for sayings, especially those that rhyme. I want you to build me an ultra-simple spellchecker which confirms whether or not this vital rule was followed. The C...

thejonymyster

i spare you no longer. this question doesnt care about word vs nonword lol

lyxal

@thejonymyster Bleugh

Vyxal, 246 bits2, 30.75 bytes: `cei`o‛eic¬?`cie`c¬∧?`eceii`o‛eic¬∨ (vyncoded)

@NewPosts mfw all caps bools meaning I can't use the test suite without modification

Now I have to add a footer smh

lyxal

07:00

@NewPosts read this as smellcheck for a second

lyxal

07:54

6

Thank you stackoverflow.com copilot extension, very cool

Themoonisacheese

09:10

@lyxal can a thing be a subset of itself?

i guess it depends on your definition of subset

lyxal

One thing being different is a subset of both things being different

With two things it's equal, with more than two things it's contained within all things being different

Themoonisacheese

oh in that way then sure

@lyxal has the extension ever been useful for scala?

in my experience LLMs are trash at anything that isn't python or js

(and even then...)

lyxal

09:26

@Themoonisacheese I haven't used it since first getting it lol

Themoonisacheese

lol

lyxal

But normal copilot chat and code completion copilot are good with Scala

Both gave me a usable implementation

Not SO though.

It's surprisingly not capable of a lot of things normal chatgpt is capable of doing

Rendering it rather useless

E.g I asked it "how would I reduce overlaps of size N in a list by a function in python?"

It was unable to produce a result

### How would I reduce Overlaps of Size N in a List by a Function in Python?

<br />I couldn't find an answer to that. Try [posting the question](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/ask) or asking it in a different way. <br />

Themoonisacheese

maybe it's instructed specifically to not invent solutions and always refer to existing SO questions?

if nobody asked thatt question then yeah

lyxal

@Themoonisacheese about that not inventing solutions thing

Guess the code I told it to analyse

Themoonisacheese

var a=a?

lyxal

09:37

Nope

The correct answer was that guessing the code was a trick question

There was, in fact, no JavaScript code being analysed

5

Themoonisacheese

lololol

Redz

astounding

lyxal

I can't take full credit for that, someone else found it first

I simply reproduced it for comedic effect

Themoonisacheese

you're still getting stars for it

lyxal

However, I can take credit for this:

> The code snippet provided

Yes, truly

Themoonisacheese

09:44

oh

did it just, not?

lyxal

09:54

It did not

@Themoonisacheese this was the linked answer

1

A: float and double max value check in python

One way to reliably get the limits of floating point formats is to construct the values from their binary representation with struct. import struct FLOAT_MAX = struct.unpack('>f', b'\x7f\x7f\xff\xff') FLOAT_MIN = struct.unpack('>f', b'\xff\x7f\xff\xff') MAX_DOUBLE = struct.unpack('>d', b'\x7f\xe...

Note the lack of for loops

And range keyword too

Themoonisacheese

and the lack of anything to do with your original question as well

lyxal

That's right

Truly the future

Themoonisacheese

lyxal

The concept of a Stack Overflow powered copilot extension is a strange one

Because while it provides some form of attribution, it does so at the cost of being much less useful than the LLM powering it

Meaning that most times you're better off defaulting to copilot chat

Hence eliminating the need for a SO extension

If it were its own LLM that might make sense

But running a less optimal extension on a more powerful base LLM doesn't seem like the best thing

Themoonisacheese

10:10

Using Dangerous AI, But Safely?

►

lyxal

Especially when the underlying LLM has better "chat" capacity

Themoonisacheese

s/dangerous/could make bad code/g

lyxal

Right now the extension appears to be an AI simulation of a typical SO user

For a loose definition of simulation

I say that based on the fact it doesn't like to do conversation like normal chatgpt

Themoonisacheese

rob miles videos are a tad alarmist (though it is clear why his position is like that) but if you swap out "dangerous" for "could suggest insecure/bad code" then this video perfectly answers why it was made so

lyxal

You ask it a question, perhaps provide a mcve, and it gives you an answer as if you were using SO

Now that's all well and good until you look at one of the reasons chatgpt has taken people away from SO: the interactive debug assistant with infinite patience

Marketing/product-wise, it doesn't make much sense at this point in time

Themoonisacheese

10:14

tbh i genuinely don't believe the product will ever make sense

lyxal

If I want LLM answers, I'd rather use copilot without extensions than the SO extension

Themoonisacheese

stackoverflow isn't really good a providing arbitrary answers at anything but the questions that have been asked

lyxal

Yeah

Themoonisacheese

i like to say that all questions have been asked but that's very much untrue

lyxal

It doesn't provide an equal to or better than experience than base LLMs to claw people back, and it also doesn't help with people who need personalised assistance that would get vtcd on SO

meaning it's effectively a glorified SO asking experience

It even says "try asking on SO" if it can't answer something

Which is a lot of the time

Themoonisacheese

10:17

that's probably intended

given the recent SE want to increase user count

CMR: THEA - Juste Amis music.youtube.com/watch?v=V_CqKqi1_Ec

lyxal

@Themoonisacheese for sure

I just think it half defeats the point when you can leave out the @askstackoverflow prefix and get a decent copilot response

Themoonisacheese

i mean realistically books2 contains the stackoverflow datadump

and copilot was trained on it

(so was the SO extension, all LLMs have been trained on a superset of books2, but it's voluntarly gimped)

lyxal

@lyxal yeah, my main problem is that you're one backspace away from getting better quality answers than the SO extension can provide

to the extent that LLMs can provide quality answers

like the fact I can get a better experience without the extension makes me question why I'd need it in the first place

because you're already paying for a copilot subscription

so why get less value out of it?

@Themoonisacheese I mean, that's implied by the fact it's running on GPT-4o :p

Themoonisacheese

i don't think the extension makes sense as a product

lyxal

same

it really doesn't

it'd have to be directly integrated into SO somehow to make sense as a product, and we all know what happened last time they gave me access to a LLM on the site :p

Themoonisacheese

10:28

my take is that it's the wedding ceremony of an arranged marriage between 2 powerful noble families:
microsoft wants the SO dataset in the future, and ideally they want it exclusively for themselves.
SO wants money and users, so they ask for this extension in return for the dataset.
neither party actually cares that the extension is any good, the deal is the deal and this is just the way to show it

@lyxal i don't

lyxal

You know how I like playing chess with LLMs that shouldn't play chess?

Themoonisacheese

yeah

lyxal

62

A: We are seeking functional feedback for the formatting assistant

So turns out the question editor isn't good at chess... The Prompt I tried a few different prompts but the one that consistently seemed to allow for progression in the game was: Here is a chess game: ``` insert game here ``` What is the correct algebraic chess notation for the (x)th move for t...

Themoonisacheese

incredible

New Posts

13:01

0

Q: Frogs on lily pads want to make a party

Consider binary strings (reading from left to right) starting with a '1' as ponds of lily pads. A '1' signifies a frog sitting on the lily pad, and a '0' represents an empty lily pad. Here, we see a pond with 7 lily pads on which 4 frogs are sitting: 1101001 The frogs want to all party together....

code-golf math sequence combinatorics

Ginger

13:38

@lyxal you will be happy to know that I have internally named the toasty rewrite toasty-neo

lyxal

is it known for it's high defense?

Ginger

good question

lyxal

well, don't you know [Neo] is famous for its high defense?

Ginger

so I've heard

lyxal

~~it's funny because it's false~~

Ginger

13:43

I'd try and spin it up so you can bang on it, but currently it can't even do the thing I built it for

lyxal

the original Neo spoiler

thank you

thjjanky you markdwon

yes

goodsgjob

Ginger

s/it's/its :3c

lyxal

l + ratio + didn't ask

Ginger

l + correct spelling + english language

lyxal

nuh uh

Ginger

13:44

nuh uh

actually, you can help me test something

hold on

check discord

Themoonisacheese

14:03

@Ginger missed opportunity to call it Revolution R180B

Ginger

the reference is lost on me

Themoonisacheese

it's the first result for "smart toaster"

Ginger

ah

Themoonisacheese

Ginger

$350 for a toaster?!

Themoonisacheese

14:07

apparently.

Ginger

soooo I think you mentioned you could arrange for me to have a domain :3c

I need somewhere to run toasty NEO while rydwolf fixes the VM

Themoonisacheese

@Ginger so about that

i think we don't need to ask maddie how it's going

Ginger

?

Themoonisacheese

i'm trash at traefik and i can't manage to redirect shit to her server

Ginger

ah.

Themoonisacheese

14:09

however!

cloudflared might be of help for both of you

Ginger

:doubt:

Themoonisacheese

why so

Ginger

cloudflare stinky

Themoonisacheese

i mean yes

basically the current status is that i somehow can't manage to configure traefik properly to reverse-proxy requests like i want to

and i can't figure out ipv6 in a way that would save me from this hell

i may have a solution for ipv6 which i need to do anyway for maddie's postgres replication thing, but the traefik thing i really don't get

Ginger

networking my beloathed

Themoonisacheese

14:22

all of this would be solved pretty much instantly if i didn't have to use my ISP's router

Ginger

> Cloud-native, GitOps-driven API runtime solutions for demanding DevOps and Platform Engineers with diverse use-cases, environments, and deployment models.

indecipherable

I love me some API runtime solutions !!

Themoonisacheese

...this is on cloudflare's website isn't it?

Ginger

traefik.io

I have no clue what they're trying to sell me

Themoonisacheese

oh lol

it's nginx wrapped in a container

Ginger

lmao

I should start advertising Bridget as "horizontally integrated inter-platform network communications designed to hybridize your workflow and create lateral synergy between teams"

6

Themoonisacheese

14:30

incredible

imo you're missing in buzzwords

and also you're actually saying something, you need to be saying absolutely nothing

Ginger

I tried!

Themoonisacheese

you did

i tried also but mine wasn't as good so who ami to judge really

> On December 13, 2016, Clements again tried to bring the council to vote to remove Browser, claiming “I’m a council member and I can put anything I want on the consent agenda”, but the motion did not pass.[11] This would be the last meeting attended by Councilman Clements as an elected official.[12] Clements was defeated in a landslide during his council re-election bid in 2016, and died on January 1, 2022.[13]

Browser is a cat, by the way

Ginger

💀

Themoonisacheese

imagine being ratio'd by a library cat

Ginger

I would happily ratio a guy named Councilman Clements

Themoonisacheese

14:39

i'm going through en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_individual_cats

it's very good for the heart

Ginger

LIST OF INDIVIDUAL CATS

we also have List of animals awarded human credentials

Themoonisacheese

yes

Ginger

> Meow, also known as Meow the obese cat,

Themoonisacheese

i originally started this rabbit hole on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._D._C._Willard

Ginger

I am unsure how to actually implement the antifreeze part of toasty

~~I could just use setTimeout to run it every 24 hours~~

Themoonisacheese

14:50

systemd timers?

Ginger

I would like this to be as self-contained as possible

Themoonisacheese

common wisdom says either you take the hit that setTimeout will not run if your process restarts, or you use a db that you poll regularly, or you use a queue that can do the timeout for you

Ginger

bleh

maybe I can just use bullmq and require Valkey to be installed

Themoonisacheese

that works i guess

mousetail 'he-him'

15:13

@Ginger You could run every time a hacker scans your public IP address, that happens about twice a day

Or Googlebot, either works

Themoonisacheese

15:51

i was already aware of Tama but it always gets me tbh en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tama_(cat)

noodle person

Regarding ATaco's recent challenge which was closed, I think it's reasonable to assume it was meant to be [code-golf] since it links to "Default for Code Golf: Input/Output Methods"

Therefore I have voted to reopen

Unrelated String

16:07

@Ginger Looking at the thumbnail size image all I could think of was the fucking Juicero LMAO

@Themoonisacheese ikrrrr

Seggan

16:37

@noodleperson yeah the chat context indicates its also code golf, ive edited the tag in

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Below is my idea for a code golf. Let me know if you have any comments, want anything clarified/changed, this is a duplicate, etc. A possibility is switching to signed types instead of unsigned, so let me know if that is preferred. Find the Smallest Data Type for a Number Recently I had to implem...

Ginger

16:59

8

Q: Multi line chat messages are now limited to 10k characters?

Since the beginning of chat, multi line chat messages enjoyed the freedom of not having limit, or more accurate, they could reach around 2 million (!) characters. However, as of few days ago, I noticed this is no longer the case, and it's now limited to 10k characters. Is this intentional, and if...

support chat rate-limiting

it's joever

no more storing 2MB of data in chat messages

Unrelated String

😔

rydwolf

18:59

Just used a very unfortunate wrong emoji in a text, which made it unintentionally very funny (maybe just to me), then went to send it to my only other friend who would have context and accidentally sent it to THE SAME PERSON over a different communication medium

How's y'all's morning going

Ginger

it's 2PM

rydwolf

Morning isn't about what it says on the clock, it's about what's in your heart

Ginger

that's what I told them when they asked why I wasn't wearing all black at that funeral

The Empty String Photographer

20:27

What's the complexity class of the best linear programming cutting-plane techniques? I couldn't find it anywhere. Man, the Garfield guy doesn't have these problems ...

Redz

this particular xkcd is great

reminds me of how pointless competitive programming is for real life situations sometimes

DLosc

21:17

@Redz Why would you want to be reminded of that? :P

@rydwolf The fact that we have a chat program with emoji at work makes me triple-check before clicking sometimes. There are so many emoji that would be very problematic to send to one's boss.