The Nineteenth Byte

Themoonisacheese

15:01

@RubenVerg it's a bit complex. maybe pulling reduce into its own separate challenge in which you must use the interpreter you previously used

RubenVerg

@noodleperson i'll try and remember to edit once i add them

Themoonisacheese

so that way you can chain challenges and people end up writing a feature-complete interpreter for their dialect

noodle person

@RubenVerg I like it! Excited to go back to TypeScript types and give it a shot :)

Negative numbers are gonna be a pain though

RubenVerg

@Themoonisacheese well you would want to change some stuff about it maybe eventually

@noodleperson challenge you to write in tinyapl (there's no eval yet)

@Themoonisacheese this does sound like an interesting thing though

noodle person

Hm I want to sounds fun

RubenVerg

15:03

my problem is, if in part 3 i add multiplication and therefore multiplication reduction; an impl that just matched +/ and -/ would have to add an extra ×/ which might make it longer than just matching <function>/ and implementing a general reduce

noodle person

I'd want to try something a little harder though like some conjunctions/modifier chains

RubenVerg

but otherwise making it a series sounds really cool

Themoonisacheese

@RubenVerg inspired by piratesoftware's game jam, in which he tricked people that thought they couldn't make a game, by making a first jam where people only had to write the specifications for a game, and the he sprung the second week where you had to implement it

RubenVerg

@noodleperson part 15

noodle person

:)

Themoonisacheese

15:04

@RubenVerg i guess you're right, it would work better if it wasn't code golf

like, just a challenge for the challenge yknow

RubenVerg

(i mean, you get coolness points if you implement a full tinyapl in tinyapl implementation just for a challenge where you need + - and ⍅ and [] and ⟨⟩)

@Themoonisacheese those don't exist do they?

noodle person

I've always been fascinated by the way J/APL are parsed.

The parsing for this minimal APL is super easy though

RubenVerg

bunda gerth is really cool but i'm told normal recursive descent works

Themoonisacheese

@RubenVerg i don't think they do, AFAIK this is a "competition" only site

RubenVerg

@Themoonisacheese yeah that's what i thought

is there a list of criteria?

Themoonisacheese

15:06

but maybe the mods can give you leeway to create this, that'd be fun

RubenVerg

i could also just make the chain and encourage to rework the interpreter while making the goal still golf

"Let's rebuild TinyAPL" or something

Themoonisacheese

fair enough, though golfed programs are generally write-only

RubenVerg

fastest would also be interesting but i'd need specific test cases

Themoonisacheese

much like bash scripts in that regard

noodle person

@RubenVerg For a challenge to be on topic it needs to have both objective winning criteria and objective validity criteria

RubenVerg

15:07

@noodleperson yeah, but those criteria are predefined, right?

or can i make up my own as long as they're objective?

Themoonisacheese

btw i'm about to go on vacation and i wil not be breaking my policy of only wasting time here at work, sso see you in a week

RubenVerg

@Themoonisacheese that'd be really cool

@Themoonisacheese (: where are you going?

Themoonisacheese

home lol

i don't go places on vacation, i don't really enjoy travelling

RubenVerg

interesting

well, have a nice week at home i guess!

@Themoonisacheese now to pick the easiest mods to convince to build a majority

(i don't even know who any of the mods are)

@noodleperson you'd still need a flag for output though

Unrelated String

@Themoonisacheese I never feel like travel is a priority, but I always enjoy it when I actually do it

Neil

15:16

@Themoonisacheese surely it's the specifications that's the hard part?

Unrelated String

Just usually doesn't feel like it outweighs the disruption of leaving in a vacuum

Neil

leaving in a vacuum is only a good idea if you're travelling light

5

Unrelated String

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

noodle person

@RubenVerg Yea

@RubenVerg True, or just make output implicit. You're already making input implicit, it's not a far jump, just frame it more like a pipeline maybe

Ginger

15:43

can an RO please move ^^^ to the trash? that user's "pronouns" are taking up my entire screen

RubenVerg

oh look an user to put in the pronoun blocklist

Ginger

I'm approximately 100% sure that it's a sock, so yeah I'll just blacklist it

RubenVerg

@noodleperson wdym?

default output would be sets

which i guess is valid because it's an encoding of the result?

Unrelated String

Yeah

Only caveat I can see is if there's "work" done by the universe specification

But it looks like your actual code does anything that would be relevant there

RubenVerg

ℕ's show is "count how many elements", ℤ's is "count how many elements in first item of pair, count how many elements in second item of pair, subtract"

can some of you test out golf together signup and login? i'll delete accounts created

(oh, and passwords are hashed, dw)

Unrelated String

15:49

Mmmmm

So the set I/O formats would be fundamentally different, even though both are natural native representations

RubenVerg

i guess i could also require input as sets?

i don't think it's any different than requiring inputting a natural as Church encoding in a λC language

and outputting as the same

which i vaguely recall being allowed?

Unrelated String

That's kinda the issue; there's only one Church encoding for lambda calculus, but there's two set encodings used differently here

But since the complex encoding doesn't do any work, my gut says it's still fine

RubenVerg

church encoding for integers is the same as mine though

pairs of two naturals

Unrelated String

...good point

Been ages since I've seen anything lambda calculus based that's actually designed to handle negative integers

If you can find anything on CGCC that does that then I'd call that solid precedent

And if not I'd also probably still say this is fine :P

rydwolf

Bad times to forget you're afraid of heights: after climbing a 20 foot ladder and jumping across a gap to get into an attic which apparently has no other exits

Unrelated String

15:54

Just explain "the flags are for I/O formatting"

@rydwolf 🫂🫂🫂

Ginger

@rydwolf yikes

rydwolf

Who tf decided to evolve sweaty hands as a response to heights btw

Unrelated String

GOOD QUESTION

rydwolf

worst part is the attic didn't even have roof access or anything cool, it was just catwalks with a bunch of HVAC equipment

Unrelated String

(I'm mildly afraid of heights so I don't think I've ever gotten sweaty palms from them? but it is annoying when I'm just like kinda stressed and locked in on working on something and oops gotta wash my hands every 30 minutes so my keyboard doesn't feel awful)

rydwolf

15:56

My fear of heights is more the rational kind, I typically only feel it when I'm doing something genuinely dangerous

Unrelated String

Ahh

For me it's more like this gut feeling any time I See Something Too Far Below Me™️

RubenVerg

@UnrelatedString done

Unrelated String

:D

RubenVerg

i'll look for lc answers

Unrelated String

It can be kinda exciting in small doses but it's really overwhelming otherwise

mousetail 'he-him'

15:59

I'm not afraid of heights, but I do get the gut feeling. It's just weaker/easier for me to ignore

rydwolf

yeah, I think that might be universal

Unrelated String

Like when I was visiting Toronto and went to the CN Tower I couldn't make myself walk on the glass floor even though actually going outside with that safety mesh felt great

RubenVerg

i get mildly excited when I See Something Very Far Below Me

Unrelated String

And looking over railings and such is sort of a mix of that feeling and conscious anxiety like "what if I lean too far and fall off" or "what if my glasses fall off"

mousetail 'he-him'

Fun fact: The term "Adrenaline Junie" is often used as a joke but you can genuinely become addicted to adrenaline

Unrelated String

16:00

Makes sense

~~Kaiji moment~~

Wezl

I used to be afraid of heights but everything is so far below me now, you kinda get used to it

RubenVerg

@UnrelatedString oh, "what if my phone falls out of my pocket" is a thing i definitely have any time i'm next to railings with holes in them

Unrelated String

~~I didn't know you were on the ISS~~

@RubenVerg SAME

RubenVerg

but that happens on boats too

which are not tall places

Wezl

@RubenVerg me with my glasses ._.

rydwolf

16:02

...what kinda pockets do y'all have?

Unrelated String

Doesn't help that I've had some pairs of pants with really shitty pockets

Wezl

@rydwolf i mean my sweater pockets usually open sideways fwiw

RubenVerg

@rydwolf the bad kind

on some pants at least

rydwolf

I think I could hang from my feet and still have my phone stay in my pocket with the pants I daily drive

Unrelated String

@rydwolf one pair of pants, the angle of the pocket opening is really steep so it's only like 2 inches deep from the bottom of the opening

RubenVerg

16:03

(which just so happen to be the ones i wear the most when going like on the mountains)

Unrelated String

Phone would regularly fall out just from sitting down in a car seat if I didn't take it out first

Wezl

@Wezl *to the side (with like a little bit of a lip that likes to tear over time)

zingus

apologies if your client just reloaded, that was my fault :p

Unrelated String

wacky

rydwolf

Mine did not

Unrelated String

16:03

me neither

mousetail 'he-him'

What ghosly powers do you have?

rydwolf

what did you do tho? :p

Ginger

changed my user details

rydwolf

ah

mousetail 'he-him'

(It didn't reload for me)

Ginger

16:04

trying to figure out if meta.stackexchange.com/q/403877/1116284 also applies to UserNameOrAvatarChanged

it does not seem to

rydwolf

It just occurred to me, you could make chat connect to the wrong websocket to test what the client does in various edge cases or unknown event types

(unrelated to ^^, since that's a server change not a client change)

@rydwolf This obviously isn't a hugely creative idea but it's never occurred to me to do it the other way around like this

Ginger

okay, it seems that UserNameOrAvatarChanged will only reload the clients of the user whose details were changed

(and it's kind of inconsistent about when it fires)

alright, I've now documented almost every event listed in master-chat

I'm missing:
- `RoomNameChanged` (because of that bug)
- `DebugMessage` (nobody knows what triggers that, or if it can trigger at all)
- `MessageFlagged` (none of my bots have 10k rep)
- `FileAdded` (the file upload system appears to have never been finished)
- `ModeratorFlag` (I'm not a mod :p)
- `UserSettingsChanged` (afaict it's only used for when you change your ignored user list)
- `GlobalNotification` (missed my chance to log the update notification sadly)
- `TimeBreak` (same reason as `RoomNameChanged`)

rydwolf

16:20

@Ginger I think I have an example of a ModeratorFlag event

I was doing something similar a few years back and I think I had caird or hyper or someone send me one? lemme check

(I say as if I would have any idea where I'd have that saved)

Ginger

my plan is to eventually document everything we know about chat on sechat's readthedocs site

RubenVerg

@Ginger oh, they wanted to make file upload? cool

rydwolf

What numbers correspond to the event_types you still need?

Ginger

github.com/gingershaped/sechat/blob/…

rydwolf

Hmm, doesn't appear I have 12 apparentlyt

Ginger

16:30

it doesn't matter that much :p

if sechat is controlling a mod's account something is wrong

rydwolf

yeah, but there's the part of me that wants complete documentation of every tiny bit of chat :p

Ginger

wow the SFF chat theme is unusable

my eyes

also I've learned some very interesting things about how chat handles access levels

apparently being kickmuted and requesting access to a room both fire AccessLevelChanged, and kickmutes include an id number

RubenVerg

@RubenVerg will probably close down the server in a bit if nobody's trying

can someone make an userscript to be able to reply to my own messages without going through hoops?

Ginger

doesn't that exist already?

RubenVerg

make and/or send me the link

rydwolf

16:39

Multiple times lol

dzaima has one, I have one, and I think someone else made one

I had two installed at once at one point

my stupid fucking voice stopped working halfway through making a joke to a whole lecture hall and then I just looked stupid

the prof left and I was like "now we have to elect a new one"

Wezl

lol

rydwolf

or I would've said that if it didn't come out as "now we have to mlep"

Ginger

@rydwolf I can't find either of them lmao

Seggan

18:06

@Ginger for MessageFlagged you can prob allow the bot to take control of your acc since you have over 10k

New Posts

Proposal for a 2024 TNB Room Owner Election

9

rydwolf

Feel free to make any edits necessary, or propose changes to the mechanism in an answer

The woke mindvirus has gone too far, now they're trying to make trees transgender:

18

Q: Can a male Ginkgo Biloba tree bear one fruit?

It is well known that Ginkgo Biloba trees have sexual difference. There are male trees and female ones. I've seen female trees in Japan in the proper season, which is about now, there are lots and lots of fruit that fall under them. They vaguely look like plums, but when crushed they stink like d...

botany

rydwolf

19:15

I haven't taken a proofs class so I don't know how to prove stuff formally which makes it really hard to answer a question in a different math class asking me to prove something which is like really obviously true

(involving whatever they call recursion in math)

Simd

Hello!

emanresu A

Would you prefer to prove something that's nonobviously true

The Empty String Photographer

19:34

@NewPosts I'm posting answers proposing the other two options for completeness.

emanresu A

Please only post answers you're seriously advocating for

The Empty String Photographer

oh sorry

Anyways, is it possible to completely erase a post from SE, where it's not even recorded by the system?

emanresu A

Nope

RubenVerg

@rydwolf oooh, induction

i love proofs by induction

The Empty String Photographer

What is a programmer's favorite painkiller? Codeine!

Darren Smith

19:53

Hello, I've just gotten my new language, iogii, ready to share with the world (it is still in pre-alpha). The goal is to be simple yet powerful (like all my languages really). This one is lazy, vectorized, tacit, and only uses the 96 printable ascii characters. You can check it out at golfscript.com/iogii I'd be trilled to receive any feedback - feel free to ping me here!

8

The Empty String Photographer

20:18

CMegaC: Connect to the web using brain****

rydwolf

Can there be a bijective function which has an inverse function that only works in one direction?

E.g., if f is the function and i is the inverse, i(f(x)) = x but f(i(x)) isn't necessarily x

@emanresuA well like, yeah, 'cause at least then I can show something lol

emanresu A

@rydwolf nope

rydwolf

That's my intuition yeah

wait I'm dumb that basically follows from the definition of bijective

emanresu A

Yeah

@rydwolf Depends on the course, but some of my more proof-oriented ones often have proof exercises which seem obvious but are a bit more complicated to do only from the axioms/rulesets you're given

rydwolf

In this case it's more just I don't know the proper like, terminology or approach to show that two things that look really similar actually are similar

So I kinda just drew an arrow and was like "they look similar see"

emanresu A

20:29

What's the specific problem?

rydwolf

Showing something with powers and the laplace transform and factorials

Actually wait no I think the part I was talking about was just showing (after a bunch of prior steps) that the gamma(n+1) is factorial

emanresu A

ookay. You probably need to set up two expressions and manipulate one into the other

and factorial = gamma so there's probably something else up there

rydwolf

yeah I thought about defining a function f that was f(n)=gamma(n+1) and g(n)=n! so that I could write the inductive definition of factorial using both and it would look much more obviously similar

@emanresuA there was a bunch of work we had to do to prove it, this was just the final step

emanresu A

Ah okay

RubenVerg

21:08

@rydwolf you presumably calculate Γ(1) = 1 and then show Γ(n+1) = n Γ(n)?

emanresu A

Just discovered this bug in halfwit

spot the problem

RubenVerg

yeah probably parts with v = e^-t

@emanresuA I shouldn't spot the problem, your linter should!

emanresu A

Look I wrote this two and a half years ago and I was not sentient

7

Neil

my linter won't even warn me when I write a.indexOf[b]

Ginger

21:24

@emanresuA so true

emanresu A

@Neil tbf that's just undefined

Neil

it does check that b is a string or number, but not that indexOf is actually indexable...

emanresu A

I have halfwit 2 somewhere in the closet and it's just cursed. Some bits I remember:
- It uses a weird poorly-huffman-coded codepage with some questionable choices
- I shoehorned in jelly string compression for some reason
- Everything is (supposed to be) compiled into a stack function with fixed input/output arity, which is actually unenforcable
- this means modifiers are functions from stack-functions to stack-functions, and the whole program's compiled into one giant stack-function at the end

att

22:01

@rydwolf uhh combine true statements to make another one that's true?

Sandbox Posts

22:19

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Exit all text editors Alice opened some random terminal text editor and typed in the text of her next award-winning YA novel. Now she wants to save it to disk and exit the editor, but she has no idea what editor she's using! Give Alice a sequence of keyboard inputs that will save her work without...

lyxal

Then that's on Alice for not being more discerning despite being a seasoned writer

Maybe, just maybe, if you've already gotten a flow for writing award winning YA novels, don't go fricking around with random text editors

Just saying, Alice, coming here and expecting us to solve your problems, smh

And also, Alice is capable of doing all sorts of arcane encryption stuff, yet can't figure out a text editor

Pick a lane and stay in it Alice

att

you might think too highly of YA authors

rydwolf

@RubenVerg I already had done that

So like. What was even left to prove.

rydwolf

23:18

> In the dying days of the 12th century, with Norway in the grip of civil wars, the Baglers, a faction aligned with the archbishop, laid siege to Sverresborg, the castle stronghold of King Sverre Sigurdsson.

This is like indistinguishable from parody

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