The Nineteenth Byte

pxeger

07:24

@cairdcoinheringaahing Nice, where are you going?

PlaceReporter99

08:13

@RydwolfPrograms there's a strike on reddit now?

noodle man

11:55

@mousetail he was going to call it JSML (JavaScript Markup Language). long love jismal

mousetail

12:11

@PlaceReporter99 Reddit is dead yes

Unlikely to ever come back

caird coinheringaahin g

14:09

@pxeger Seattle

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Lowest digit addition generator A digit addition generator of an integer n is any integer x that satisfy the equation x + s(x) = n, with s(x) being the sum of the digits of x. (We will work under base 10 for convenience.) For example, a digit addition generator for 29 would be 19, because 19 + (1...

Bbrk24

14:34

I am getting a C# exception thrown by a function written in C. This will be fun to debug

AFAICT, there’s a heap buffer overrun and the .NET runtime says “no”

mousetail

Same thing I'd do when my heap gets overrun TBH

Bbrk24

15:23

But why/how does it throw a .NET exception into the C code?

Rydwolf Programs

15:42

@mousetail lol what

It's a two day strike, Reddit the company isn't gonna care. And 99% of its users don't care whatsoever about third-party apps

Nothing's gonna change

mousetail

Most subs are shutting down permanently

Just a few will come back after the 2 days

It was announced as 2 days at first but people soon realized that's dumb

Rydwolf Programs

Reddit's just going to depose the mods of the big ones and appoint new ones who'll open them back up

The options available to them are:
1. Lose a ton of profit
2. Lose a ton of profit
3. Don't lose a ton of profit

user

@RydwolfPrograms I think it's more likely most mods will just stop striking

And people will move to other subs

Rydwolf Programs

The real enemy isn't Reddit, it's capitalismU+2122

user

Are there even any good alternatives to Reddit?

Rydwolf Programs

15:55

There's one people have started talking about recently with the strike

But it's just gonna be another Mastodon/Truth Social situation where everyone there is there because they left the original and are still salty over it

user

What's that?

Rydwolf Programs

Mastodon: Twitter alternative used mostly by the left
Truth Social: Twitter alternative used by Trump and the right after Trump got banned

mousetail

tildes is a good alternative, also lemmy

user

No I mean what's the Reddit alternative?

Rydwolf Programs

Lemmy's the one I've heard people mention

But it's gonna completely flop 100%, the value in Reddit is that it's always near the top of searches, so you get plenty of normal people flowing in

Reddit's biggest flaw is Redditors

user

15:58

Huh, tildes.net looks a lot like Reddit

Rydwolf Programs

And the Reddit alternatives are going to be mostly dedicated Redditors

mousetail

Reddit website has consistently been terrible, the only thing that made it valuable what the community

Rydwolf Programs

And the community is valuable because it's diverse, because of the traffic it gets

user

I can't even use the new website sometimes on my phone

mousetail

Yea and the app crashes every 30 seconds

user

15:59

It wants me to download the app or log in if I try accessing a sub

mousetail

Reddit is only usable because third party apps exist, if they want people to not use them release something that actually works first

user

I can only scroll through the front page or use old.reddit.com to see a specific sub like r/Askreddit

Rydwolf Programs

Okay but yeah I don't get how you can be one of the biggest and oldest sites on the internet and so consistently fail to have a functioning and aesthetically bearable website

mousetail

I won't be tempted to go back to reddit because there is literally no way for me to access it now. Many people are in the same boat

user

Aesthetically it's okay but it's so laggy and buggy

Rydwolf Programs

16:01

old.reddit.com looks hideous and only barely works, and new reddit is a nightmare to actually use and doesn't look nearly good enough to justify that

mousetail

The subs I actually care about are going down permanently, some more mainstream ones may be reopened by admins but I don't use those anyways

Rydwolf Programs

IMO SE's pretty close to the goldilocks zone between functionality and aesthetics, or at least they were but are trending to the right

user

@RydwolfPrograms Old reddit looks hideous but it definitely works better than new Reddit

@RydwolfPrograms There are parts of the site they've kinda abandoned, though

Rydwolf Programs

That's true, ig

user

Like if I click on a link to a PLDI question and I'm not signed in, it gives me a button to enter it, and if I click the button and sign in, I get redirected to the front page instead of the URL I originally clicked on

Which is kinda weird because the page that says "Enter the private beta" has the original URL included in its params

Rydwolf Programs

16:04

Why did the dev survey stop asking demographics questions?

Like there used to be all sorts of cool info on gender, disability, etc., and now it's just age

mousetail

Privacy concerns

There was a huge deal about it on meta

Rydwolf Programs

I thought that was resolved by changing the census badge?

user

But it's a survey

Rydwolf Programs

^

mousetail

IDK

That was the official stated reason

Last year there where more trans women than cis women who responded, I was curious if this trend would continue

Rydwolf Programs

16:09

It looks more likely to me that they got rid of the demographics questions to make room for the new AI section, without making the survey too long

Surprise surprise

mousetail

AI was just 2 questions though

Rydwolf Programs

There were some others involving AI scattered throughout the tech ones tho, easily enough to equal the number of demographics questions they previously had

(which were, IIRC, race/ethnicity, gender identity, sexual orientation, and disability)

mousetail

Maybe

They are lying a lot right now so they could very well be lying about this too

Rydwolf Programs

Maybe we should just destroy the internet and rebuild everything from the ground up. Good opportunity to fix lots of early mistakes we have to backwards compat with, too

mousetail

That would be great

user

16:11

Let's go back to being single-celled organisms

mousetail

Add some security to email from the start

@user How will we prevent them from inventing IPv4 though?

Rydwolf Programs

^

We need a few humans alive to herd the cyanobacteria and subtly influence them not to make poor decisions

user

~~eugenics time~~

Rydwolf Programs

Oh while we're at it can we destroy the world's electrical infrastructure? Everyone does it badly in at least one way

mousetail

Let's get Philippe and Spez on it

DLosc

16:13

@RydwolfPrograms ~~Hi Thanos~~ :P

mousetail

How many hz for the new network though?

Rydwolf Programs

The US has pretty good distribution and voltage, but the plugs suck. Britain has good plugs but grounds everything to the power stations. Some other countries do things well but use differing frequencies from each other.

55, a compromise :p

mousetail

Nah 120 volt is way to little

Rydwolf Programs

The US uses 240 volt, we just split it up into 120 sometimes

If you look in a US breaker panel, most of our big loads are 240

mousetail

We do the same, but then go up to 480 volt for high power applications

Rydwolf Programs

16:15

120 is safer, it makes sense to use it

mousetail

I've been shocked at 240 many times in my life and am still alive

Rydwolf Programs

That is...the definition of survivorship bias :p

mousetail

Good plug design is more effective than lowering the voltage

Rydwolf Programs

Good plug design doesn't fix the main causes of shocks

Like fraying cords

Altho I guess good cord design does...

mousetail

In my case I got shocked mostly by doing electrical work on live cirquits, but that's not really a typical thing to do

This was in India btw, didn't want to turn the power off because it would be too hot without fans

Rydwolf Programs

16:18

We could always compromise on three-phase (208V) :p

mousetail

That would be reasonable

200 volt is enough to make water heaters work properly

Rydwolf Programs

Ew, electric water heaters?

mousetail

They are so much faster than stoves

When I make pasta I boil the water in a electric heater, it's very fast

Rydwolf Programs

Ohhh you mean the water boiler things

The kettles

I thought you meant like, house water heaters

mousetail

Yes

Rydwolf Programs

16:19

@RydwolfPrograms Where resistance electric is enormously inefficient and dumb

mousetail

In India we had electric house water heaters, not here in the Netherlands though

Electric heaters are 100% efficient

Gas heaters much less so

Since they lose heat in the smoke

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah and heat pumps are 250%-400% efficient

mousetail

Heat pumps are great

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Except that loss is happening either way

Assuming your power plant is gas

Using gas directly to heat water is better than using the electricity from that gas to heat water

mousetail

Gas power plants are more efficent than your typical central furnace

DLosc

16:21

> The badge gave anyone doing de-anonymization a leg up... Removal at least raises that barrier some.

But removing the badge doesn't make de-anonymization impossible. The example I saw mentioned was if you used a less-common language and lived in a small country.

Rydwolf Programs

Couldn't they just make the demographics questions optional? Like some data is better than no data

DLosc

Maybe. There's also the point that a lot of people (myself included) had no idea the full data set from the survey was released publicly. So people might think their responses would be private, and choose to answer the optional questions when they might have chosen differently if they knew it was public.

mousetail

Wouldn't that just make it easier to de-anonymose those that did fill the survey in?

DLosc

Like, I wouldn't have mentioned the niche language I use for my job if I knew that my actual full responses would appear in a public data set.

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Yeah but most people don't care, I'd assume

And/or aren't at all deanonymizable

Joe Smith who uses Python and SQL, lives in the United States, and is a cishet white male with no disabilities might secretly use APL, but there's no way to tell him apart from all other 2k generic people of roughly the same description

And that's going to be most of the respondents I'd bet

DLosc

16:26

I don't remember--did previous surveys have an option for gender of "Prefer not to say"?

Rydwolf Programs

Yes

DLosc

Okay, so then I think the concern must have been the people who didn't realize their answers could be used to dox them and therefore would choose to answer even if the question was optional.

mousetail

Imagine coming out via stack overflow survey

Rydwolf Programs

Seems like they could've still asked the question and just...not published the demographics data in the individualized dataset

Like there's still a lot to be gained from knowing the demographic data at a population level, especially the trends

There's not really much of a reason you'd need it individualized, unless you were looking at like, "what languages are more masculine" or "what's the gayest version control system"

mousetail

Very interesting question for sure but I agree even the aggregate data would be useful

"Is it true rust makes you trans?"

11

DLosc

16:30

Correlation, not causation :P

Rydwolf Programs

Hang on we still have survey data from the last six years...I'mma brb...

mousetail

Shame there is no question on if you own pink striped socks

DLosc

I do own a pair that are mostly black but with some pink on them, including a couple of stripes.

mousetail

Did they appear soon after trying rust?

Bbrk24

@mousetail I didn’t get the pink ones, I opted to get the blue ones instead :P

wait let me check something

mousetail

16:34

Any color stripes works

DLosc

@mousetail No, my girlfriend-at-the-time bought them for me. ;) She loves pink everything.

mousetail

Did your girlfriend try rust shortly before?

DLosc

Ha! No, she's not a programmer.

~~She might've licked something with rust on it, but I doubt it~~

Bbrk24

Hm. Wrote my first PR for a project in Rust in early April 2022. Started questioning my gender in late May/early June that year

6

Rydwolf Programs

16:58

Hmm, data problem

Some of them seem to be shifted

Probably my janky CSV parsing?

Oh yep it is I'm dumb

Okay

I did NOT expect this

The language with the highest percent of trans users, is, by far...

APL

With 15%

Proooobably some sampling bias lol

Rust is only in 11th

With 4.21%

There are more trans Assembly coders than Rust ones

In fact, outdated languages seem to be by far the most trans

So it's either sampling bias, or trans == retro

mousetail

Maybe display sample size next to the percentage? A lot of the top ones are just very unpopular languages

user

For APL specifically, it might just be that it's not very commonly used

Rydwolf Programs

The least trans language is Delphi with only 0.93%, followed by all of the traditional boring languages, like SQL, VBA, PHP, JS, etc.

APL     15.15% (364 / 65)
Crystal 8.91% (276 / 27)
OCaml   8.16% (349 / 31)
LISP    5.39% (807 / 46)
COBOL   5.04% (396 / 21)
Haskell 5.02% (1401 / 74)
Erlang  4.93% (559 / 29)
SAS     4.88% (370 / 19)
Lua     4.88% (2555 / 131)
Assembly        4.36% (3491 / 159)
Rust    4.21% (6031 / 265)
F#      3.81% (657 / 26)
Fortran 3.75% (564 / 22)
Clojure 3.19% (972 / 32)
Perl    3.16% (1471 / 48)
Julia   2.94% (959 / 29)
Elixir  2.78% (1400 / 40)
C       2.46% (12629 / 318)
Objective-C     2.38% (1560 / 38)

And that's cis / trans in parens

Now to find the gayest language

Codidact Posts

17:14

New Posts - Challenges - Code Golf: Determine if a polyomino is "prime"

posted on June 13, 2023 by WheatWizard‭

An $n$-polyomino is a connected subset of the square tiling consisting of $n$ squares. We will say a $n$-polyomino is prime if it cannot be disected into disjoint $k$-polyominos...

mousetail

Lisp/Haskell seem the top ones with a large sample size

Which makes sens I think

user

Lisp isn't specific enough

Haskell makes sense, it's an old language but very popular recently, meaning younger programmers will be more likely to use it

@CodidactPosts Long time no see, Codidactyl!

Honestly surprised there are more Rust users than Assembly users

mousetail

Both are purist languages that go against more traditional C-style conventions

user

@RydwolfPrograms You know what would be cool? Trying to predict whether someone's cis or trans based on which languages, frameworks, etc. they use, then seeing how accurate you can get it

(not specific people, just those data points)

Rydwolf Programs

Maybe using the 2021 numbers as the testing ones to prevent overtraining

user

17:18

@user Maybe see what's the fewest variables you need to get it to a decent accuracy, after which we can start guessing why those variables are good indicators

I wonder if there's any correlation between spoken languages and prrogramming languages used

Might be better to use country, I guess

Rydwolf Programs

It seems that the transness and bisexuality of programming languages is highly correlated

The list looks about the same

Same with gayness

It seems Delphi is just very straight and cis

And APL is just based af

Here's the data:

APL     6.25% (273 / 27 / 20)
Crystal 5.24% (217 / 18 / 13)
Lua     4.27% (1967 / 186 / 96)
Haskell 4.24% (1089 / 130 / 54)
Rust    4.17% (4812 / 450 / 229)
Assembly        3.74% (2742 / 244 / 116)
OCaml   3.54% (266 / 34 / 11)
Fortran 3.44% (454 / 23 / 17)
Swift   3.36% (2683 / 138 / 98)
R       3.27% (2550 / 145 / 91)
LISP    3.24% (648 / 68 / 24)
Scala   3.19% (1409 / 78 / 49)
Julia   3.14% (775 / 57 / 27)
SAS     3.13% (293 / 17 / 10)
Elixir  3.05% (1164 / 74 / 39)
Groovy  3.05% (1858 / 81 / 61)

straight / bi / gay

Now I'm curious

What makes some languages more LGBTQ+ than others?

I'd assumed age had something to do with it since APL, LISP, and Cobol were at the top, but Fortran's at the bottom

Sample size could be part of the story, but if it was just random chance due to a small sample, I wouldn't expect both bisexual and gay to independently produce roughly the same list

And Delphi/VBA aren't that tiny

Delphi's especially interesting IMO, since it has a solid sample size, and is a clear outlier in all three

Maybe there's some single big company using Delphi that's anti-LGBT, or maybe it's primarily used in countries that are less accepting?

pxeger

18:22

@RydwolfPrograms Is the difference statistically significant?

Rydwolf Programs

I'd assume so

5% difference with sample sizes in the hundreds and thousands

pxeger

yeah I didn't look at the numbers carefully, it definitely is

Rydwolf Programs

I wonder how much of this could just be correlated with average age of users

Maybe only old people use Delphi?

I'd assume that to be true with like, APL and COBOL, but maybe those've succeeded at bringing in younger devs

pxeger

COBOL is still pretty low

I think you're right about APL though

Where are the raw data?

Ah I think they're not available yet

Rydwolf Programs

2023 doesn't have demographics

I'm using the 2022 data

insights.stackoverflow.com

Bbrk24

19:03

It’s doing the thing again where the nav&textbox scroll

okay it’s back to normal now. why does this keep happening

@RydwolfPrograms Do you have lang:country correlations?

Rydwolf Programs

19:36

The raw data would allow that yeah

Bbrk24

I wonder if the “less LGBT” languages are just more popular in countries where that’s illegal or taboo

caird coinheringaahin g

20:34

@RydwolfPrograms Tbf, I've found that a lot of trans people are bi/pan

Adám

21:46

It could also be a self-reinforcing effect if a few LGBT+ people take up APL and start spreading it to their peers… I'm pretty sure that's happening for APL. And yes, it isn't just on SO; The APL Farm Discord server (and the bridged Matrix channels) have noticably many LGBT+ members.

ATaco

22:16

Ah yes, APLGBT+

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