@RydwolfPrograms good news!

@user are you still there?

Yeah :(

@user turn that frown 47.23 degrees to the right

Is that some Unicode character?

🤔

I can do you one better and turn that frown 180 degrees ):

@Bbrk24 vtc as dupe of chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/136286?m=63513628#63513628 :p

@user no it's just something you can do that won't make any real difference to how you're feeling :p

@lyxal No one's stopping you from buying fridges and giving them away

@lyxal lol

I'll stick to rotating cows in my head, but thanks

@user donating to charity isn't the same as doing something out of necessity.

Donating to charity is better

well if I wanted to do that I wouldn't steal limbs either

You don't steal limbs to distribute them to the less fortunate?

nah, you're thinking of Robbin' Hood

^

@lyxal I kinda managed to rotate my mouth but my eyes are stuck in place :◜

fool, now you look goofy and you're still sad!

hahahahah!

Oh no now it looks phallic

@Ginger Any relation to Lobbin' Food, the rich dude who throws food at peasants?

Or perhaps Sobbin' Mood?

nah, they're the children of Bobbin' Dude

The Dude?

@user curried coinhereengines

yup, that one

The caird abides

In case y'all hadn't seen, SE has layed off 58 staff members, including 2 CMs

oh no

That is not cash money

That following the Sidebar ads? How hard off for cash are they?

Well, they have a new AI team to pay for

They need to stop machine learning and start learning how to manage their resources better to better the community

Hey @Lyxal, I noticed you updated the elo scores for the golfing class of a language. I think it misscored nibbles since scores are listed in the form x bytes (y nibbles) and the script that was posted selected the last integer which will be 2x the real number of bytes. I can find and share with you the script I used when I did some analaysis, although I think it had a few flaws of its own and I manually checked things since there weren't that many.

Thanks for maintaining that information btw, it has been super useful for me to see what else is out there. I'm curious what Nibbles elo would be.

yeah, I made sure to make a note of that in the post

oh I didn't see that oops

I attempted a fix on the script

I don't know how valid it is

I'll try to run it and manually check for the nibbles ones that I had already downloaded in Dec

running it gives an elo of 1981

Wait, what is this ELO script? I vaguely remember it being mentioned before

programming language ratings

@Ginger Another programmers' chat.

Yeah it looks like it gave the correct byte counts for all the nibbles entries as of Dec

@DarrenSmith you should make a chatroom for Nibbles - I know you say you wouldn't "be a good chat room host", but all you'd have to do is talk there normally like you would any other room.

Well I'm not that good at staying connected and checking stuff. Would that be fine though?

@DarrenSmith so looks like the true elo of Nibbles is 1981

@DarrenSmith that would be perfectly fine

other people can also answer questions people ask

Yeah I'm kinda surprised it wasn't higher based on the head to head win rate versus Jelly, I wonder if it is because it has lost to some other lower rating langs? Or just needs more entries? Also possible it has lost more since Dec when I did the head to head calculation

@DarrenSmith here's the top 8 languages with the updated script

Vyxal:                            2076
Jelly:                            2071
Nibbles:                          1981
SOGL V0.12:                       1943
Neim:                             1906
gs2:                              1887
Husk:                             1885
05AB1E:                           1881

what's interesting is that exlcuding Nibbles from the calculations puts Jelly back at number 1

I feel like Vyxal will go up now that it has fractional bytes, does the script handle that too?

it does

it handles all sorts of decimals

 score = re.search(r"(\d+(?:\.\d+)?) bytes?", line)

it seems Nibbles beats Jelly enough to knock its elo down a bit, but loses to other languages enough to not overcome jelly

So long as people don't just list the number of bits, which I guess they don't

@DarrenSmith the script looks for the first instance of bytes and gets the number next to bytes

so you can write bits, trits, log whatever you want, but it takes the number next to the word "bytes"

sounds good

> 16 bytes: 1439

dang it not even 35 is a good cutoff

40 seems to get rid of that

The fact that jelly hasn't been updated in 5 years,and still hits the top of the rankings is very impressive

same about gs2, neim, SOGL, husk and 05AB1E

I wonder if this entry hurts Nibbles rating a bit since if parsed literally it would lose to even python (since optimizing for words instead of byte reduction) codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/241551/… I think the query I was using filtered that out somehow, have to look it up

it doesn't

that's tagged code-challenge

and that tag is ignored in the query data

data.stackexchange.com/codegolf/query/1473052/code-golf-scraper

Oh yeah that is how it worked

and Q.Tags not like '%<code-challenge>%'

filters only code golf

How did you get around the query results size btw? I had to break it up by date to get all data

> How to use it: 1. Run with default maxID 2. Download the CSV 3. Scroll to the bottom and copy the bottom most leftmost number (smallest answer ID returned) into maxID 4. Run again 5. Repeat 2-4 until you get less than 50000 results, and merge all CSV files downloaded

from the instructions on the linked query

I had to use the pandas library to merge the csvs

import pandas as pd
import glob

df_files = []
for f in glob.glob('Ref*.csv'):
    df_temp = pd.read_csv(f)
    df_files.append(df_temp)

df_merged = pd.concat(df_files)
df_merged.to_csv("merged.csv", index=False)

turns 3 csvs into 1

I see, thanks

anyhow, CMQ: replace the script in the elo post with this revision that allows for fracbytes?

I've updated my claim in my nomination for lang of the month ;)

oh yeah speaking of LoTM - I don't think it's being done anymore

it's fallen a bit by the wayside

oh lol, well if it ever starts again

@DarrenSmith while you're here - what was it like at the peak of golfscript's popularity? Did you know what you were doing or were you "making things up as you went along" so to speak?

How would you recommend starting a chat? Just here on stackexchange?

yeah

just make a room

@DarrenSmith yeah, click the "create new room" button on the rooms page

Well to be honest I only followed it early on and saw its use at golf.shinh.org, then I left code golf for like 7+ years

lol nice

@DarrenSmith so it was something you left to grow on its own?

It was exciting for me because it was really cool how something so simple could dominate at code golf and it seemed novel. I definitely made things up as I went along, originally it wasn't intended to be good at code golf per say, but to explore the power of eval

ooooh

that explains a lot

(I like hearing/learning from other people who've had mega-langs fwiw)

What do you mean by grow though since it stayed pretty much the same?

the community and popularity

and usage

i imagine golfscript didn't need much of a community to get popular back in the day

Yeah, I definitely didn't even know it was being used lol. I hadn't heard of codegolf.stackexchange.com until a few years ago

or rather, would grow a community purely around people who happened to already try using it

@DarrenSmith but you did know it was one of the big-league languages (so to speak)?

Yeah, it is kind of humbling because now there are so many languages that are good at code golf, it is difficult to attract people

I found out a few years ago that it was pretty heavily used and referenced on the internet, which is kinda what inspired me to do better

ah, i was about to ask what inspired you to come back :P

@DarrenSmith dang - it inspired many generations of golflangs and you didn't even know lol

But by better I don't necessarily mean be less bytes, but inconsistencies, novelty, etc.

yeah i feel like so much makes sense now that i know that golfscript wasn't actually designed from the ground up to be golfy

because the whole block eval model is very elegant in its own way, but not so much clearly compact

It was designed to not "cheat" but be good at golfing. In my mind it was cheating to use binary characters or even 1 letter fn names, since real languages could have just done that if they cared about bytes

not to mention the multi-character builtins :P

yeah lmao

@DarrenSmith why the stack model?

convenience/something you were familiar with/golfiness or something else?

it was simple to implement and also very concise since you don't need parenthesis and can do basic things tacitly. I think that was the first time I had implemented a stack lang

I feel kind of bad for not having been more familiar with Forth because a lot of the cool stuff had been done before there I believe (I still haven't really used forth). Also I wish I had known more about APL, vectorization is so cool

it is

@DarrenSmith did you ever read/hear about/deal with the criticisms about golfing languages from around 2014-2017?

Yeah I think I searched for those types of things when working on Nibbles

did that impact any design choices?

(and sorry if I seem like i'm asking too many questions - it's not every day I get to talk to someone who made one of the biggest golflangs in the past)

I thought about trying to create another version of golfscript too that addresses the flaws but keeps the simple spirit, since I don't think any language does that, CJam might be the closest but it adds a lot of things. Ultimately I decided not to do that though, not sure how many people would actually be interested

Well, it is very flattering so I don't mind

How'd you choose the name for golfscript? Was it a play on javascript?

I think so, I can't remember specifics though. I thought about so many things and went back and forth on many things in the design. It is honestly really hard to balance between simplicity and conciseness

that was to earlier question

I think script since it was dynamic, and golf since it was good at that (and no other language had golf in the name already)

@DarrenSmith (fwiw - you can reply to messages by clicking on the arrow on the left of the message then clicking reply)

@lyxal thx

nw

@DarrenSmith huh, never thought about that being the reason for script

also interpreted, I mean I thought it was a standard way to name stuff

@DarrenSmith how about golfscript 2? (GS2)

The existing language GS2?

yeah

does it address the flaws in your opinion?

I'm not super familiar with it aside from referencing its commonly used ops to make sure I have those covered. I don't think it does though. I believe it isn't vectorized, or lazy, or statically typed. All of which I think are good (static type for more reliable type overloading)

more reliable?

I was not a fan of the use of the binary characters and just adding a bunch more ops (something I seem to be in the minority for)

yeah. if you do type overloading, and say you have a list and are iterating through it, if an element in it is a different type, the code could do an essentially random operation instead of something like coercion

ah I see

so something similar to checking all the types in a list before doing the operation but without the overhead of doing so

I know dynamic gives you more freedom and can be fun to do some really hacky stuff, but I think the reality is almost all code golf problems are essentially solved with types that could have been static

yeah I think we we write code, even if it is dynamically typed, we still intend the character at a certain spot to do the same thing even if it happens to get different typed values over time

(probably my) final question (for now): how'd you discover/get into code golf? I know at the time golfscript was created there was no StackOverflow nor CGSE (here), and code golfing was probably way more niche. Was is through perl golf or some other means?

I think I saw some random code golf stuff for calculating pi in C a long time ago (like 2003ish). And calculating pi had a special place in my heart, so I tried to beat it and did so. I put that in my signature for forum posts at tasvideos.org and a friend told me about codegolf.com (now defunct)

ngl that's pretty cool

The only choices were ruby, perl, php, python. I don't think I knew ruby at the time, but I wanted to compete so learned it and got way to into it

ooh, neat

I really liked the format of not being able to see other's code and trying to beat em (I was pretty competitive I guess)

that happens to be the nature of code golfers :p

Anyway I would love to ask you some questions too since I'm out of the loop, but pretty late here. Good night

o/

I'll be happy to be the interviewee when you're ready :p

Is there golf-cpu but somehow with cache and branch prediction?

@l4m2 Build one yourself :)

The original golf cpu never really took off

Also I don't like the instruction set, so something similar is fine

RISCV is fine. I don't like it either but it's at least better supported

@lyxal well it's just text I'm sure there were other utilities you could have used

huh, when did my SO gravatar change?

I like this one, looks like it's praising the sun

@Neil Who are you, and what did you do to regular Neil‽

It would be cool to build a physical processor that could natively interpret brainfuck It seems possible to build with some off the shelf parts

@cairdcoinheringaahing wtf man

hmm, my meta account says it's using its default identicon, which is different from the default identicons on my other accounts

(well, all of my default identicons seem to be different)

@mousetail I have plans to build one actually

Slightly stuck on the jump

Oh cool

Is there no tips for golfing in regular expressions yet?

Oh nvm found it

@Neil mine seems to change every time I open the profile picture tab

@lyxal I have created said chat room and will link to it, chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/145966/nibbles

:+1: (cc @DLosc)

Also created one for atlas, the language I'm currently working chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/145968/atlas

Looks interesting

Not really a golfing language per se. Is there a place where people discuss golfing in esolangs? I ran across a language called convey that seems cool and well done: xn--wxa.land/convey

We discuss esolangs and general languages here too

We are creating a new site specifically for programing language design too I guess when that launches the discussion will move over there

cool

Today in “how did I make that typo”: it statusg

sup

my client can handle multiple rooms correctly now

currently trying to figure out edits

Ginger might win

I think I need a different solution for timestamps

because the gutter space is also going to be used for message statuses

actually, I have 7 cells of gutter space and timestamps are only 5 cells wide

so I might be able to make this work

time to turn messages into state machines!

true

You probably want to handle messages you send yourself as edits. That way it appears instantly instead of a noticable delay before the API handles it

that seems to be what the official version does

messages are going to have a state property, which can be SENDING, SENT, EDITED, or DELETED

and I'll make a GutterLabel widget which uses that to decide how to render the gutter label

I won't actually delete delted messages but just grey them out I think, it's nice to be able to see them

hey look i have visited the site for 600 days

@mousetail They also already have a lot of work done, since they can copy-paste so much from sechat. We have to translate and test it at the very least

"We"?, are you working on one too?

yup!

@mousetail Attempting to. The login endpoint isn’t giving me any cookies

@Bbrk24 yeah, sechat's the whole reason why I could get to where I am so fast

What language are you trying in?

I also may have found a compiler bug while working on this

@mousetail Swift

big brain™

Oh cool

This is going to be a race our ancestors will write about

@Bbrk24 forums.swift.org/t/segfault-in-outlined-init-with-copy/64952. Just waiting for someone to confirm I’m not an idiot

@mousetail I am 100% going to lose (I started late and the login endpoint hates me)

Oh I'm losing for sure too, it's more about the journey than the end

I'm looking forward so seeing the approaches you all are taking

I’m doing a TUI because there’s no Swift graphics libraries for Linux

Reasonable choice, dumb that no graphics libraries exist though

Swift is Apple’s language, so all the graphics libraries are Darwin-only

i'd imagine there's just generally not much swift support for non apple stuff

Outside of Apple platforms, Swift is used almost exclusively server-side

Swift-C interop is very well supported though, so in theory I could use a C graphics library

I'd expect someone to have made SDL bindings or something similar

(though building a chat app on a thin SDL wrapper wouldn't be a easy task)

@Ginger What do you mean good news?

You can't reply to my comment about AGI with "good news" then go silent on the topic...that's exactly what someone who's been murdered and imitated by an AGI would say

@RydwolfPrograms Don't worry about it. Anyway, back to normal human activities!

@Ginger do you have the ability to infinitly scroll upwards yet?

@mousetail I do not, that's a later thing™

I’ve never used websockets in Swift before so I’ll need to figure out what library to use for that

You never actually need to send any data through the socket, just receive. If that effects your library choice

Good to know

When posting, starring, editing etc. it's just a POST request to a separate URL

def render(self) -> RenderableType:
    match self.message.state:
        case MessageState.SENDING:
            return Text("Sending", "gray italic")
        case MessageState.SENT:
            return self.makeTimestamp()
        case MessageState.EDITED:
            return Text("✏️ ").append_text(self.makeTimestamp())
        case MessageState.DELETED:
            return Text("🗑️ ").append_text(self.makeTimestamp())
        case _:
            raise Exception()

Cursed thing is that chat doesn't even use websockets if you're not logged in

advanced programming

It just spams the events endpoint

Having tried multiple open-source observable libraries in the past, I will say that RxSwift is by far the most user-friendly. So if I’m not passing callbacks directly (a la JS .on), I definitely want to use something RxSwift-compatible (as opposed to e.g. OpenCombine)

Also it seems the offiical chat app always breaks and re-creates the websocket when sending a message for some reason. However, it works fine if you don't do that

it what

@mousetail Doesn't for me

It disconnects the websocket on sending a message

But maybe that's just me for some reason

I mean I can’t get a login cookie even though I’m getting a 204 so

SE seems to just be a little cursed

The cookie is set during a redirect if that helps

That ruled out several poorly written Node libraries

@RydwolfPrograms IT DOES, thank you

Alamofire is great about ignoring the things you want to see when you receive a 3xx so I’ll have to disable automatic redirects

@Bbrk24 yeah I spent 3 days and counting reimplementing what sechat does

Yeah I had to go through that when reimplementing chatbot.py in Node/Rust

Should I just go through and extensively document how chat works

Make like, a chat internals wiki

So who all is using which language again?

I feel like that'd save us all a lot of trouble

Ginger = Python, Seggan = Rust, Mousetail = Browserside Typescript + React

@RydwolfPrograms yes

@RydwolfPrograms Maybe make a community wiki post on stackapps?

itd also remove the potential for licensing issues when we look at other libraries

@mousetail too long

I don't think stackapps allows Q&A does it?

I've seen similar posts on Meta but yeah, it'd probably be too long

I think it does

Answers for every major section

@mousetail forgot bbrk

I’m using pure Swift

bbrk was asking

@mousetail a wiki would be better format

@Bbrk24 I know, but for posterity

Yea I want a wiki but ideally not external

so it's easy for all chat app authors on the entire site to use

a community wiki seems the best way to do that

True

could also be on mother meta maybe

it’d be easier to handle updates too

Yea, people who run into stuff can edit it themselves

We’re all using Github right? We could just create the wiki on sechat (I recognize the problems with this and I am putting this out there as a solution, not the best one)

Sechat is unlicensed, meaning all rights reserved + it’d be better for the guide to not be attached to a specific lib

It's a possibility, still has the discoverability problem but at least a nice editing interface that's also searchable

@Ginger please add a licence to SEchat, just to clarify things

They did, GPL3

Well we'd probably make it a wiki on its own repo right

@mousetail already did

Oh nice

Putting it on one random library wouldn't make much sense

TY

Ewww GPL?

my day has been improved greatly because I just got to make a variable named sendingPending

I licence all my code under GPL

@RydwolfPrograms that’s what I said

@Bbrk24 ooh, an actual use for the CGCC wiki!

@mousetail I prefer more permissive licenses for most projects, Gpl for my Minecraft plugins

I use MIT for most things

^

I think licensing under MIT is dumb. So many questions on opensource.se being like "someone copied my MIT code what should I do" lol just use a decent licence

If you're open sourcing something then getting mad when people "copy" it then that's a you problem

Here’s the thing: I don’t care

@Ginger make it lpgl because gpl also forces you to use gpl even if u just use it as a lib

I want people copying my stuff

^

So do I, but at least give attribution

That's why I like GPL, they can copy but they have to share the source

My 15 minutes of fame aren't coming from some random shit I wrote in 7th grade, if it helps you, go ahead and take it

Reasonably trade

thats why I use Apache mostly

Not just resell it commercially with no attribution

@mousetail Yeah but they also have to use GPL themselves

It's disgusting

GPL is a good licence

So I like others to use it

It promotes sharing and colaberation

At least we’re not using ISC (discouraged from use for being too vague and too similar to MIT, iirc)

._.

@mousetail Apple uses clang instead of gcc because of the GPL

@mousetail no, it forces

^

^

That's the point yes

And it's counter to sharing and collaboration when I want to use a more permissive license

I want people to share the source of my code if they improve it

I helped the community now they need to help the community

Doesn't like, every license require that

Not MIT

Or ICS

@mousetail yeah but what if I don’t improve on it? What if I just use it as a dependency?

Or apache

You can use GPL code as a dependency

Without sharing the source

No u cant

Isn't that only LGPL or something

Yes you can, as long as you don't modify it

@RydwolfPrograms Some of the BSD licenses do but MIT itself doesn’t, iirc

It needs to be under LGPL

Yea I use LGPL

oh well maybe say that. they are different licenses

I suggest you read LGPL for the difference

Fun fact: the code for my car is GPL licensed

I mean this is kind of a moot point tho since nobody bothers enforcing licenses

@Seggan what car?

At least you get moral high ground if you specify a licence that actually states what you intend