The Nineteenth Byte - 2023-05-01

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12:44 AM

@RydwolfPrograms doing a little transcript diving, eh?

Unrelated String

i thought i thought of a cool approach but then i realized iterating over powersets is probably much shorter :P

er, the single powerset i guess

OldSandboxPosts

1:00 AM

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Langston's Ant

Rydwolf Programs

1:52 AM

PSA: Do not send invalid answers to the Low Quality queue (by flagging them as VLQ/Not an answer). Mod flag them. If sent to the LQP queue either 1) nothing will happen or 2) the post will be deleted with or without the proper invalid-answer-protocols being followed, which is unhelpful to the OP

7

(And by "send to LQP" I mean NAA/VLQ flags)

Actually lemme edit that in if that's going on the starboard

Unrelated String

lol

@RydwolfPrograms you say that, yet someone just sent an invalid answer to the low quality queue

Rydwolf Programs

The events are correlated :p

Also another reason not to send invalid answers to LQP is that unless it's very clearly invalid people will probably just glance over it and "Looks OK" it, which is my typical procedure given that 90% of the things there are just added by the system for being too short

4 hours later…

5:32 AM

@RydwolfPrograms That is not an obvious mechanic at all, what's the point of flagging as not an answer then?

NAA is one of those StackOverflow-centric flags.

user image

Where that sort of thing is a problem

Like really not an answer.

Very Counter Intuitive though.

Just another problem this site has with trying to fit with the Q&A model

If you flag as NAA or VLQ the person reviewing the queues can flag it properly

I thought when we became a full site back in 2017 all these issues vanished with it :<

We got our theme and everything!

5:35 AM

@mousetail the queue it goes to only has looks good, edit and delete as review options. No choice to leave a comment and give time for OP to fix the answer

@ATaco the fact that the SE model is a Q&A site and we're not a Q&A site never changed

88

Q: We're not a Q&A site. But what should be done about it?

It has come up several times recently (more than usual) that PPCG differs from most of the other Stack Exchange sites in that it's not a Q&A site. People don't come here to ask a question because they have a problem, people come here to solve recreational challenges. The most valuable contributio...

discussion site-health

those kinds of issues

Is there not even a flag option?

Is this the triage queue?

we dont have a triage queue

If this is low quality answers you can 100% add a comment

you can add a comment, but that doesn't count as an action

You'd need to open it in a new tab, flag it, then click skip

(Something quite common in a lot of review queues that don't have some required option)

5:39 AM

You have to choose one of "looks good" (which "handles" the review, dismissing it without fixing anything), "edit" (which 99% of the time isn't allowed) or "delete" (which is an extreme option for something that might be fixed within a few days)

and skipping just delays the review to someone else

You can click looks good then flag it

That defeats the whole point of the VLQ/NAA flag

what rydwolf was saying is to not use NAA/VLQ on invalid answers at all

Not really, you could get a more experienced person deciding what to do

I mean you can VLQ it if you have low rep yourself

Of if you are just unsure

then use a mod flag

it's more appropriate

NAA/VQL doesn't notify mods, and is slower to resolve. Plus, people can choose to "delete" without leaving a comment

meaning the answer is deleted without anyone getting a chance to say "here's why it was deleted"

17

Q: Correct flag usage on invalid submissions

Recently, a couple of invalid answers have been flagged as NAA. This is somewhat of a duplicate of this answer on our policy, but I want to mention this because it's important that everyone is using SE's tools correctly (I know, a bit atypical for our site) to make sure things happen as they shou...

discussion policy answers flags

> if the post is an attempt, is formatted fine, but is invalid because it doesn't properly complete the task, leave a comment letting the answerer know so they can fix it, and if they still haven't fixed it after a day or two, flag it for moderator intervention

> If it's an attempt and its formatting isn't terrible, this will likely be reviewed as "Looks OK", which then dismisses the flag as disputed. Basically, an invalid answer is still an answer, and unless it's blatantly obvious it isn't valid (like if the answer itself says it isn't 100% correct), it'll probably be accepted in the review queues. Normal users can't see that it was sent there by a flag, so they will probably assume it's just a mistake by the system.

Unrelated String

6:00 AM

@lyxal see, i would trust 16 year old you to vote more than someone who would opt in at 16 :P

also til australia has mandatory voting

@UnrelatedString you clearly haven't seen the esolangs I made when I was 16

That or you've forgotten how cursed they are

Unrelated String

i've seen at least one

and, like, yeah it was pretty bad

@UnrelatedString then you know that I was in no way suited to voting

Unrelated String

but that means you were spending your energy making bad esolangs instead of getting into some political circlejerk that would make you feel more informed and/or emotionally invested in things you didn't have adequate perspective on

Well of course. And I completely agree with that. I just know that there's the other extreme of 16 year olds who aren't informed of experienced/cynical of the world enough to understand the gravity of what they're voting for

And I found myself somewhere towards that other extreme

Like I followed the news and knew what was happening, but I didn't really have a grasp of it

If that makes some sort of sense

@UnrelatedString and besides, the circkejerk at 16 years old might persist to 18 years old

With the same level of lack of information

Unrelated String

6:09 AM

that is true :P

And with probably even more determination to stick to it after having been denied the ability to act on it at the age of 16 and get it out of their system

@UnrelatedString it's not that I don't trust my judgement from back then, it's more that back then, I didn't have a good grasp on what I consider fricked up in the world

But now that I've experienced life a little more and dealt with things that do be like they are, I feel more capable of deciding how I do want things to be like.

There really is some hint of truth to the idea of adulthood starting at 18 :p

I think what I'm describing is maturity :p

And losing naivety about the world

Because there's a difference between knowing something in your head and actually having a personal understanding of that same thing

That, or bus rides awaken some sort of philosophical mood within me :p

7:08 AM

@pxeger any ETA?

1 hour later…

8:12 AM

tbh, no

I'm pretty preoccupied atm

3 hours later…

11:31 AM

PLDI: What should the job title be for someone who does PLD?

~~Technical Linguistic Engineer~~ Probably just "programing language developer" or "programing language engineer". Don't really know a good way to make it shorter without making it sound like you are developing a talking language

Oh, actually should indicate being the lead on it. I have "Head of Language Design" and "Language Lead" as candidate titles.

"head of language design" sounds better to me of those 2 options, sounds more technical

11:53 AM

Yup, I'll go with that unless someone comes up with something better.

Newly Featured Posts

12:52 PM

5

Q: What dice do I need to display my words?

A sequel to What dice do I need to display every integer up to X? Numbers are great, but let's take it to the next level. I'd like to have a set of dice that can be arranged and rotated to display any words I want. Think Boggle: And not just that; I want to specify the number of sides those dice...

Does JS have a case-insensitive version of obj[str]?

No, I don't think so

Rydwolf Programs

1:25 PM

@ATaco NAA would be if they posted Obama x Lincoln fanfic instead of code, or maybe if it's code clearly unrelated to the challenge. VLQ would be if it was literally nonsense and completely unsalavageable.

An invalid answer is still an (attempt at an) answer, I guess is one way to phrase it

ooh the chess site got a new site design

14

Q: Your new site design is live!

As you can see, the new design just went live! At this point, we are done with major revisions to the design (although you can still report CSS/styling bugs by starting a new post and tagging it with design and bug). Thank you for your valuable design feedback and for your patience while we got t...

discussion featured design

It's a nice design

it does look nice

Rydwolf Programs

That was a while ago right?

Few weeks

Rydwolf Programs

1:37 PM

Yeah get ninja'd:

April 17

Rydwolf Programs

Apr 14 at 14:05, by Rydwolf Programs

Ooh Chess got a design!

@lyxal It was live at least earlier than the 14th for me

@RydwolfPrograms don't care + didn't ask + only noticed today + L + ratio

Pretty sure I posted about it at that time too

Honestly most site designs here are really nice, SE's designers are absolute MVPs

can't wait for them to do their magic on PLDI one day then

1:38 PM

What should our themes be?

Green text in different languages on a black background is already taken by code golf

Maybe something white on blue as a blueprint during construction?

Rydwolf Programs

We can figure out in seven years when they get to us :p

It's fun to brainstorm though

We can always make a userscript for it in the meantime

Rydwolf Programs

Nonono we don't need another cursed grad script :p

Yes we do

1:43 PM

I've grown quite fond of the gradscript

I like a blueprint color scheme

Rydwolf Programs

Partial VTC as dupe of DIY :p

I'm sad they don't offer custom voting buttons anymore :(

Rydwolf Programs

I'm not

They're kinda annoying and typically ugly

On PLDI: Up vote = Rust Icon. Down Vote = Java Icon

1:44 PM

@mousetail ooh ooh stuff like ebnf, FSMs, PDAs and that kind of thing

Rydwolf Programs

And they get in the way of usability when they aren't just slight variations on the arrows

@mousetail ++ and -- but haven't those buttons become standardised across SE?

Yep that's why I'm sad

caird coinheringaahin g

2:15 PM

@RydwolfPrograms Yeah, just to add onto this: if you find an answer that should be deleted (or commented on then deleted if not fixed within a reasonable amount of time), flag for a mdo

2:37 PM

@lyxal ooh me likey this idea

especially EBNF

3:23 PM

welcome to today's episode of frozen rooms

The Pallete

For the artistic side of programmers. Both music and visual arts.

3:58 PM

@lyxal The one thing I don't like is that when their icon appears in the HNQ, it's too small to tell that it's a chess queen--it just looks like a gray square with a black square inside it.

1 hour later…

5:00 PM

@TheThonnu This answer was fixed: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/260525/91213 so you can delete your comments

5:15 PM

@mousetail not everyone shares the same enthusiasm for rust as you do

I’m kinda annoyed by the rust community, it acts like rust is the only language worth using, and everything else == bad

@Seggan Yep that's the joke

I totally agree

And I’m a Java fan

Flamewar!!!

A java fan? In the wild? I thought y'all went extinct in the 90s

(JK Java has it's strong points)

Well… you could say I’m more of a jvm fan than java per se

i really like the concept, and it’s a lot more standardized and less of a mess than .net

5:18 PM

Yea JVM is good, Java isn't designed very well but they did a good job on the runtime

C# is better than Java but JVM is better than .net

@Seggan Are they really comparable?

.net does include a VM which is kinda meant to work like Java, but it's much more than that

Though people often also mean the entire ecosystem when refering to jvm

ah

5:57 PM

blech C#

C# is comptently designed

fair

more accurately: blech .NET

6:11 PM

How comes anyone can register a .net domain, but .java is entirely reserved for Oracle‽

4

~~who have never used it~~

Why does team fortress 2 have it's own TLD?

CMQ: Which programming languages and other technologies have their own tld?

Rust does, .rs. There was a push to get a .js TLD a few years back but it failed because ICAN requires TLDs for things other than countries to be at least 3 characters

Wikipedia doesn't actually list .java, are you sure it exists?

6:28 PM

me on my way to take over the island of Java and Sumatra and form the Nation of Javasumatra

icannwiki.org/.java

I found actor, sh, ch, cl, dog, es, io, nu, plus, and ps so far.

Oh right yea sh is used a lot for programing stuff, not just shell though

What language is dog?

Sepandar Kamvar

Sepandar David Kamvar, also known as Sep Kamvar, is a computer scientist, artist, author and entrepreneur. He is a cofounder of Mosaic, an AI-powered construction company, Celo, a cryptocurrency protocol, and Wildflower Schools, a decentralized network of Montessori microschools. He was previously a Professor of Media Arts and Sciences and LG Career Development Chair at MIT, and director of the Social Computing group at the MIT Media Lab. He left MIT in 2016. == Computer science == Kamvar's main contributions to computer science have been at the intersection of computer science and mathematics...

Rydwolf Programs

@Adám Because Oracle chooses not to sell .java domains, simple as that

Most TLDs are owned by companies, they typically choose to use that for profit tho

They sure try to sell Java, though.

6:38 PM

It costs thousands of dollars to register a TLD, it's not somthing a hobbyist can do

So?

Companies either want that investment back or are big enough to buy it only for themselves

I'm replying to Rydwold, not you

Many communities here have their own tld: .so, .se, .golf

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail lol what

The .rs TLD is for Serbia

ah yes, Resbia

6:39 PM

It's used extensively in the rust community

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah but it's not "their own tld"

.net wasn't made for the .net framework either

Rydwolf Programs

Correct

oh, come on!

We are talking about TLDs that, within the domain of programing, indicate something related to a specific programing language

6:41 PM

languages?

Next thing you are going to tell me .tf was not made for team fortress 2

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail We are? I read the question as asking about TLDs specifically for the language

Well then only .java qualifies

Rydwolf Programs

Well then there's our answer :p

But that was not the question

.java can't even be used so it doesn't really count

6:43 PM

Sure it can be used. By anyone who owns the rights to Java.

Not by the community though

Oracle is the community /s

Rydwolf Programs

That wasn't part of the question tho

If you make your users install your own root cert you can make, say, ihate.java go to your website, right?

Rydwolf Programs

22 mins ago, by Adám

CMQ: Which programming languages and other technologies have their own tld?

6:44 PM

IMHO it only really counts if blogs and libraries etc. use the extension

Even if someone else owns it?

We should ask ICANN for .lang for programming languages.

^ 100%

Rydwolf Programs

@user Root certs have nothing to do with it, it'd be about DNS

Oh

Rydwolf Programs

6:45 PM

Root certs are for TLS/HTTPS

^^^^

You'd need both I guess if you want to connect via HTTPs to your custom TLD

List of Internet top-level domains

This list of Internet top-level domains (TLD) contains top-level domains, which are those domains in the DNS root zone of the Domain Name System of the Internet. A list of the top-level domains by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) is maintained at the Root Zone Database. IANA also oversees the approval process for new proposed top-level domains for ICANN. As of April 2021, their root domain contains 1502 top-level domains. As of March 2021, the IANA root database includes 1589 TLDs. That also includes 68 that are not assigned (revoked), 8 that are retired and 11 test domains. Those...

Apple has its own TLD (if that counts as a technology)

It has a few

.app is owned by google though, ironically

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Yeah but that's a different question. You seem to be wanting to discuss "what languages have a TLD that's typically used for websites relating to them", not "what languages own a TLD specifically for them"

6:46 PM

That's what I see as "their own TLD"

What is actually used for websites related to the language

Not whoever owns it, that's arbitrary

Rydwolf Programs

"their own" means like, ownership

.tv sold their TLD to be used for television related products

it was originally for a country

origin doesn't really matter at all

Rydwolf Programs

If I say I have "my own room" that clearly communicates it is only for me (and people I give permission)

@mousetail what one

Same goes for .io, .fm, etc.

6:47 PM

tuvalu

Why are there such ridiculously specific TLDs?

Companies I've never heard of have TLDs

@RydwolfPrograms No, my landlord owns my room yet I live there so I consider it my room

@Adám .io is still for the Indian Ocean something right

@user Money.

Rydwolf Programs

@user Because companies pay for them

IANA's not gonna turn down their $300k 'cause they've never heard of you :p

6:48 PM

Such a silly thing to spend money on, though

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail But .rs isn't specifically for Rust, even de facto, unlike .tv.

The Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD) .io is nominally assigned to the British Indian Ocean Territory. The domain is operated commercially by Afilias, a domain name registry subsidiary of Ethos Capital.Google's ad targeting treats .io as a generic top-level domain (gTLD) because "users and webmasters frequently see [the domain] more generic than country-targeted". == History == The .io domain was delegated by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority to British entrepreneur Paul Kane in 1997 together with the ccTLDs .ac (Ascension Island), .sh (St Helena), and .tm (Turkmenistan). Kane...

.rich is the funniest TLD, it costs 1000€ to register a domain under .rich, so if you own it you prove you are rich

@RydwolfPrograms what about .io though? Everyone knows it's for games and tech stuff even though some island owns it

@mousetail bruh

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail That falls under my .tv example right?

6:50 PM

De facto .rs is for rust

Rydwolf Programs

No?!

Especially in the tech world

It's all context dependent

.lang wouldn't work well for programming languages ending with PL or L. Oh, and .pl could be used for prog langs…

Rydwolf Programs

All the big websites on .tv or .io are for TV or IO games. All be big .rs sites are probably actual Serbian websites.

The third biggest site in Serbia behind Google and YT is a .rs site

I'd bet a lot of money that site is a lot bigger than docs.rs or whatever

@mousetail I don't think Serbians would agree with you

6:51 PM

I don't disagree, but if you see mikestechblog.rs you know it's rust

Rydwolf Programs

No I don't lol

Pretty English-centric and Rust-centric statement

And you have techblog in the title anyway, which basically gives it away

If you see Мајковтехничкиблог.rs you'd know it's serbian

@RydwolfPrograms It's because the domain is english, not serbian

Rydwolf Programs

bruh the top 9 .rs sites in serbia have latin names

@mousetail Did you just transliterate Mike's Tech Blog lmao

They are not easily confused with programing related things though

@user I used google translate

Rydwolf Programs

6:53 PM

@mousetail Why does that matter

We're talking about whether .rs is de facto for Rust

Like I said it's all about context

Rydwolf Programs

And it is not

Sure in a specific context you can assume it's about Rust

@mousetail How can you be sure about that?

If you want to make a blog or library, and want to indicate it's for rust, you would use .rs

Rydwolf Programs

Yes you would

6:54 PM

There are programming-related sites that have names that do not suggest they're for programming at all

So it's de facto the TLD for rust

Rydwolf Programs

Yes but not the other way around

^

A TLD can have multiple uses

Rydwolf Programs

They can?! :o

Serbian stuff is the primary use of .rs

The TLD is not, by any stretch, for Rust

6:55 PM

But it's also the TLD for rust

Purpose doesn't matter

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Nobody's doubting that

Why are there so many Serbian Rust programmers‽

6

Rydwolf Programs

11 mins ago, by Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Yeah but that's a different question. You seem to be wanting to discuss "what languages have a TLD that's typically used for websites relating to them", not "what languages own a TLD specifically for them"

user image

Approx. 83 times more Google searches for "kurir.rs" (the top .rs site) than "docs.rs"

(as an approximation of visits)

7:12 PM

.tv is probably a better example (tuvalu)

Oh wait that was already mentioned

Rydwolf Programs

7:46 PM

Well .tv differs from .rs in that .tv primarily is used for TV

8:07 PM

@RydwolfPrograms I don't see how that's the slightest bit relevant, nobody is going to confuse those sites

Rydwolf Programs

Wdym "confuse" them?

I'm saying that kurir.rs, the top .rs site, has at least 80 times more traffic than the top .rs site about Rust

To evidence my claim that .rs is not primarily used for Rust-related sites

How is that relavent?

I'm really confused about why you are trying to prove serbians use .rs too, of course they do

Rydwolf Programs

Well because .tv is used almost entirely for TV, and .io is used almost entirely for io games (and other "I/O" related things that have nothing to do with the British Indian Ocean Territories), and you were using those as examples

So I figured you were trying to say .rs was used for Rust in the same way. Like, that the TLD's main use nowadays is Rust

Which intuitively felt wrong but I didn't have any evidence against

user image

Rydwolf Programs

Ofc we've worked past that miscommunication already, but I didn't want to waste the searching I'd done, and I don't like leaving potentially wrong claims lying around :p

8:21 PM

Wikipedia lists both uses

Rydwolf Programs

What article is that?

Yea I think our argument was mostly just miscommunication lol

Country code top-level domain

A country code top-level domain (ccTLD) is an Internet top-level domain generally used or reserved for a country, sovereign state, or dependent territory identified with a country code. All ASCII ccTLD identifiers are two letters long, and all two-letter top-level domains are ccTLDs. In 2018, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) began implementing internationalized country code top-level domains, consisting of language-native characters when displayed in an end-user application. Creation and delegation of ccTLDs is described in RFC 1591, corresponding to ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 country codes...

Rydwolf Programs

I was gonna try to show that that part about Rust likely doesn't exist in the Serbian version of the article, to show the likely bias in the English version of it, but...

user image

it's a bit of a short article lol

Strange for something about their own TLD

Guess wikipedia is just less popular there

Rydwolf Programs

No the article's about all TLDs

That's just the ccTLD article you linked to

8:24 PM

Oh lol that's not even a list

Rydwolf Programs

FWIW the Serbian article on .rs doesn't mention Rust

And it's not as much of a stub

.rs је највиши Интернет домен државних кодова (ccTLD) за Републику Србију. Почетак регистрације домена је био 10. марта 2008. Одлучено је да са отварањем новог .rs регистра престане регистрација .yu домена, с тим да ће постојећи домени под .yu НИДдк-ом остати у употреби за време прелазног периода. Првобитно је било планирано гашење .yu домена 30. септембра 2009. године, али је накнадно одлучено да се њихово гашење одложи за највише 6 месеци. Администратор .rs домена је Регистар националног интернет домена Србије (РНИДС). Према новим условима регистрације који важе за .rs домен укинута су некадашња…

Makes sense, in the country itself you are not very likely to encounter it

I do wonder if there are any serbian websites about rust that use it, to count for both categories

Rydwolf Programs

No those would have to use the .rs.rs TLD. Common point of confusion.

Makes sense

Rydwolf Programs

@RydwolfPrograms (The question is, which rs is the Rust rs and which is the Serbian rs?)

8:27 PM

The first r and last s are for the programing language, the middle r and s are for the human language

@RydwolfPrograms hmm surprisingly I can read it somewhat

even though it’s much less related to Russian that say Ukrainian or beylorussian

Read as in read and understand

Unrelated String

9:28 PM

interesting

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May '231

The Nineteenth Byte

The Nineteenth Byte: General discussion for codegolf.stackexc...

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