The Nineteenth Byte

lyxal

00:18

me when the theory of computation course introduces decision problems as a topic but I already know about decision-problem challenges

Ginger

okay so

I have decided that it'd be a bad idea to try to shoehorn my exciting new packaging system into Rol, so I will design (and *gasp* maybe even implement) my own language to use it with

presenting: Rabbit! Python, but Better™

here's a sneak peek:

public class HelloRabbit:
	public static function main() -> int:
		print("Hello, Rabbit!")

(this is a WIP and subject to change)

(also cc @RydwolfPrograms)

Seggan

00:42

@Ginger AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

what is this cursed mix of python and java

Ginger

RABBIT

Seggan

you shouldnt have to make a class just to have a main

just do public function main...

instead of a class

Ginger

~~AND IT COMPILES TO VALA~~

Seggan

java's lack of free functions is one of my biggest pet peeves

Ginger

ooh, maybe I should do public static function main() returns int :p

Rydwolf Programs

01:01

@Ginger Classist OOP in 2023?

Who does that

Ginger

me, because I'm a crazy b*tch

Rydwolf Programs

And if you're gonna do OOP, do it well, no offense

Unrelated String

because you're an enemy of the proletariat

Rydwolf Programs

Just copying Java with some Python-y syntax brings nothing to the table

Look at all that boilerplate

We were supposed to bring balance to the verbosity, not wholeheartedly endorse it

Ginger

ok, is this better:

function main():
	print("Hello World!")

Unrelated String

01:03

considerably :P

Rydwolf Programs

Maybe do fn instead of function

Or fun(c)

Ginger

I like function

Rydwolf Programs

So do I but the world is changing Ginger

We must adapt or die

Anyway gtg o/

Unrelated String

o/

Rydwolf Programs

I'll be back with more moderately solicited moderately good opinions within the next minute to decade

Ginger

01:05

also, this is realistically the best you're going to get because I am 100% too stupid for type inference:

function main() -> int:
	print("Hello World!")
	return 0

Unrelated String

xd

Seggan

@Ginger imo functions should not have type interence

Unrelated String

explicit signatures should be encouraged at the top level but for anonymous functions you absolutely want inference

and if you're capable of inference for those you may as well allow it in general
maybe with a compiler warning attached or something

Ginger

wait this language is interpreted why in the frick am I trying to make it statically typed

Unrelated String

because static typing is categorically a good idea

Ginger

01:17

fair enough

lyxal

@Ginger imagine not allowing multiple words to be used

Ginger

what

lyxal

def main(): being the same as function main(): being the same as define main(): being the same as fn main():

Ginger

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

lyxal

Yes

Allow the user to choose their verbosity

Unrelated String

01:20

i'd also add that there are cases where long-term omitting a signature for a named function is reasonable or even desirable
specifically when you already would have to know it--i.e. typeclass/interface implementations and possibly entry points

lyxal

@RydwolfPrograms how about this?

Neil

01:39

@ParclyTaxel it's also more exclusive here, since there are only 4 compared to 7 with 100K

@cairdcoinheringaahing just put their since he and her are already subsequences ;-)

Seggan

@UnrelatedString ofc anonymous should have inference, i mean explicit

user

02:23

@Ginger I mean, you don't have a choice. You will die, and it'll be sooner than you might expect

Ginger

._.

Jo King

02:53

@lyxal #define function int

Sandbox Posts

05:00

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Simultaneously solve N-queens and no-3-in-line fastest-codechessgrid An intriguing MathsSE question asked if there were large N-Queens solutions where no three queens lie on a line. That question's body included the unique 4×4 solution up to symmetries . Q . . . . . Q Q . . . . . Q . and noted t...

Parcly Taxel

First fastest code challenge from me. Anything I missed here?

Simd

06:33

It looks fun!

Parcly Taxel

What looks fun?

oright

Simd

:)

Ginger

12:13

here, have some more Rabbit:

public main function counting() -> int:
	(1..).map(print).collect()
	return 0

lyxal

hey wait is that a function with side effects being lazy mapped over a collection?

ew

Ginger

it sure is!

lyxal

59 secs ago, by lyxal

ew

Ginger

sue me

lyxal

sure

Your honour, the defendant is clearly breaking all holy laws of functional programming and should be found liable for causing trauma and cringe to all who saw the snippet

caird coinheringaahin g

12:18

We the judge find the defendant guilty, and sentence them to 5 minutes of rethinking their coding decisions

9

lyxal

thank you, your honour

Ginger

fine, here's a better version:

public main function counting() -> int:
	[print(i) for i in 1..]
	return 0

lyxal

thank you

New Posts

13:16

0

Q: Print "hello world" with as many bytes as possible

Where is the hard part you ask? Well just follow the rules... :) Rules: You can use every language you want Every instruction has to help you print out hello world You can only use 3 Math operands in total You can only use 3 variables in total All variable names should be exactly 1 byte long Var...

lyxal

I would have vtc'd as dupe of biggest irreducible hello world

Ginger

ok, here's a feature of Rabbit: no null/None/nil/whatever

we only use Rust-style results

(that's also why the main function doesn't return void)

also, type unions are done with or

so the signature of the main function is something like int or Result<T, E>

Parcly Taxel

13:42

Uggghh

(moving to off-topic TNB...)

mousetail

@Ginger The whole syntax with .map, collect, and 1.. looks extremely rust already

Parcly Taxel

OK, is something mathsy on-topic here?

Arbitrary mathsy thing

mousetail

@ParclyTaxel Depends

Parcly Taxel

OK, here's the thing that irked me just now

4

Q: $\sqrt{a^2}$ in integrals

Hello we all know that $$\sqrt {a^2}=|a|$$ so when we have $$a^2=5$$ that is $$|a|=\sqrt5$$ and $$a=\pm\sqrt5$$ but i very often see that when solving integrals only the positive value is usually considered, for eg. Here in this example since $$a^2=5$$ that means$$a=\pm\sqrt5$$ but the book cons...

square-numbers

I was the first to answer this. I said that "integral tables assume x-and-x"

mousetail

Complaining about votes is explicitly forbidden though

Ginger

13:57

@mousetail yeah, I'm also taking inspiration from Rust

okay, so I think I've figured out exactly how Rabbit's packaging system will work (cc @RydwolfPrograms)

basically, "repositories", which are module sources, can give modules to "libraries", which are module sinks, which can then "lend" modules to programs

it's hard to explain in words, so how about an example

suppose I have a bundle for a program called goat_recognizer

this bundle contains the goat_recognizer module, as well as a dependency (fancy_terminal)

mousetail

Why not a traditional module system like rust?

Ginger

because this is better

mousetail

What concrete problem is it trying to solve with this extra complexity?

Ginger

let me type please

the bundle also has a dynamic dependency (image_recognizer) which the creator of goat_recognizer has deemed too large to be bundled with the rest of the code

mousetail

I find it very hard to visualize what you are trying to say without first knowing the problem

Ginger

14:04

@mousetail I explained all of this already, let me find the link

Rabbit packaging

23 hours ago, 3 hours 21 minutes total – 313 messages, 16 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 2 mins ago by Ginger

@mousetail ^ read that, it explains the basics of this system

mousetail

I still don't understand why not normal packaging

Ginger

what do you mean "normal"? there is no "normal" here

this system is specifically designed to fix Python's myriad packaging problems

mousetail

You talk about big dependencies and locking specific verisons but normal packaging handles that just fine

Ginger

28 secs ago, by Ginger

what do you mean "normal"? there is no "normal" here

I think you should read that convo first

mousetail

Normal = Package file, lock file. Specify a version range

Ginger

14:09

so, as I was saying

when you tell the packager to install a bundle, a few things happen

mousetail

I tried to follow the conversation yesterday too but never understood why you would want to go through the effort

Ginger

bundles are a form of repository according to the packager, so it looks at the file and sees that it's a repository containing one version each of goat_recognizer and fancy_terminal, with goat_recognizer being marked as a "main" module (which means the packager will try to install it)

so the packager adds the bundle to its repository list for this operation

mousetail

Why not have goat_recognizer simply depend on fancy_terminal like a normal package manager?

Ginger

then, it checks the dependencies. It needs to install goat_recognizer, fancy_terminal, and image_recognizer, so it looks at all of its repositories for those packages

goat_recognizer is only available in one repository: the bundle, fancy_terminal is available in both the bundle and a remote repository, and image_recognizer is only available in the remote repository

the packager will then install goat_recognizer from the bundle, download and install image_recognizer from the remote repository, and install fancy_terminal from whichever source supplies a newer compatible version (defaulting to the bundle's copy)

so now all three of those are in the library

mousetail

Oh so the point is some kind of decentralized repository?

Ginger

14:14

yes, kinda

so now we're done; the end-user can use goat_recognizer as normal

mousetail

But why bundles then? Are they not the same as a repository in this sytem

Ginger

now, I have to think about how the next part will work

gimme a sec

ok got it

so all of these modules are now installed in the global library of modules, and can be run from there

now suppose I want to set up a development environment with my own code

a big feature of the Rabbit interpreter is that it can take a path to a library as input (defaulting to the global library) and it will only import modules from that library

this is mainly useful for setting up a development environment

so now if I make a development environment, a new library is created by the build tools in my work folder, and all of my dependencies are symlinked in

(remember "library" in this context refers to a collection of modules, not a module itself)

it's kinda like the older "module group" system, but less redundant

mousetail

Why the symlink though? Couldn't the interpreter read modules directly from the folder they are in

Ginger

1 min ago, by Ginger

a big feature of the Rabbit interpreter is that it can take a path to a library as input (defaulting to the global library) and it will only import modules from that library

mousetail

But symlinks would defeat that making the feature useless

Ginger

14:20

and you probably don't want to put your development code in the global library, which may or may not be writable by you

so you make a "virtual library" for development and symlink in all the dependencies from the global library

mousetail

I'm so confused. Why would you want to write to a library?

Ginger

time to make a flowchart!

mousetail

So this is a very complex way to test libraries you are writing?

Rydwolf Programs

@Ginger Is this for the dev or the end user

@Ginger What's the point of that?

All that does it restrict you, no?

It doesn't prevent any conflicts or anything assuming you're halfway sane and consider different versions of modules to be different modules

I'd even make them content-addressable, but that's maybe unnecessary

mousetail

^^

Ginger

14:24

fair enough

I could pretty easily make the interpreter be able to use multiple libraries at once

Rydwolf Programs

Just. Make. It. Based. On. Modules. No additional organization.

Please

@Ginger wha-

Why

Just...use normal import statements

Ginger

mousetail

This whole thing feels like a solution in search of a problem

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms okay

I will do that

Rydwolf Programs

The whole "repository" thing is unnecessary

Ginger

14:25

no libraries, no extra stuff, just modules

Rydwolf Programs

When you install goat_recognizer as a dev, the package manager checks its imports or its dependency lockfile or whatever, and then installs those

Ginger

ok

@RydwolfPrograms what do you mean "unnecessary"? modules don't just appear from thin air

Rydwolf Programs

And just to clarify this whole repository system doesn't override how bundling works right

@Ginger No, they get installed

Individually

Ginger

I think there's some confusion here

Rydwolf Programs

I think so

mousetail

14:28

A module is just a folder with some source code and a list of requirements

Ginger

so let me clear it up

"repository" is anything that can provide modules, which can be a website (like pypi) or a bundle file

ok?

Rydwolf Programs

Oh okay

Well then "libraries"

Ginger

"libraries" are things that modules are installed into

and probably unnecessary for that matter

Rydwolf Programs

@Ginger The packager wouldn't exist on the end-user's machine right?

Ginger

what do you mean?

Rydwolf Programs

14:30

I thought the whole point of this system was allowing the packages to be installed using a normal OS package manager or similar

If you already have a language-specific package manager on the end user's machine, bundling's totally unnecessary

Ginger

uhhhh

Rydwolf Programs

You can just install all the dependencies normally

Ginger

I'm confused

oh

mousetail

I think this is supposed to be the normal pacakge manager for Rabbit right?

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms wait how would that work?

different linux distros have different package managers

Rydwolf Programs

14:31

My impression was that the Rabbit package manager would be for devs only, and bundles would be distributed independently from it

@Ginger Wdym?

How does that change anything

You can install php on both apt and dnf

So you could install goat_recognizer on both

Ginger

I don't get it

what do you think a "bundle" is? a fancy .deb or what have you?

Rydwolf Programs

No

Ginger

one file that multiple OS package managers can all install?

Rydwolf Programs

A program and all its dependencies compiled into a single file (excluding dynamically linked ones)

Which you could in theory put in an OS package manager

Ginger

that'd be cool, but isn't possible

Rydwolf Programs

14:33

Like what you'd do with a compiled lang's code

@Ginger Why?

Ginger

if I'm understanding correctly, you're suggesting that I should just be able to do apt install ./goat_recognizer.bun?

Rydwolf Programs

No ./

I'm talking about if it was in the apt repository

apt install goat_recognizer

Ginger

problem: different package managers have wildly different repository formats

Rydwolf Programs

That'd install the .bun, and its apt depencies would include rabbit and image_recognizer

mousetail

@Ginger It's already done, but often unreliable since OS package managers don't handle multiple versions of the same package

Rydwolf Programs

14:35

@Ginger You're not understanding me

Ginger

so it seems

Rydwolf Programs

I'm not saying this would be like an unofficial deb

I'm saying it would be a package you'd install normally

Like, through the package manager

Ginger

how??? apt can only install .deb files

that's it

Rydwolf Programs

AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

YES GINGER

You would create a .deb file, and put that in the apt repository

You would create a .rpm file, and put that in the dnf repository

You would create a .whateverthefuck and put that in the apk repository

Then you could run apt install goat_recognizer, and it would install that

Ginger

but those aren't bundles! those are debs and rpms and whatever! those are not bundles! bundles are platform-agnostic!

Rydwolf Programs

14:37

Yes but that rpm would install the bundle

It would be in the rpm

I'm just saying that you could install the .bun without a Rabbit-specifc package manager

Forget the OS package managers

Ginger

okay okay

OH I GET IT

that makes sense actually

Rydwolf Programs

Phew :p

Ginger

so .bun files can be turned into .debs and .rpms and whatever?

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah, if you wanted to. Or I could go to gingers-shady-downloads.org and grab a .bun on my own

Ginger

that makes sense, and gives me an actual reason to make them function as repositories!

Rydwolf Programs

14:39

But either way I don't need Rabbit's package manager

Ginger

side note: Python tried to do this, and failed miserably

Rydwolf Programs

(and if end users were expected to have it, bundling would be totally unnecessary, since they could just run breed install goat_recognizer)

Ginger

I can, if I want, install numpy from both apt and pip, and probably brick something

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah. Technically you'd be able to do that with this, but it'd be a huge pain

Since breed (that's what I'm naming your package manager sorry) won't automatically look inside that bun unless you tell it to

Ginger

the manager will be called carrot

breed sounds disturbing

Rydwolf Programs

14:41

breed is so much better tho :p

"Breeding like rabbits"

Ginger

no

Rydwolf Programs

It just makes sense

Ginger

breed can be some other tool

Rydwolf Programs

What do packages do? They allow code to breed. They pass on their code to the next generation of programs.

Ginger

it just sounds sleazy, and I don't want my language to be known as "the sleazy package manager language"

Rydwolf Programs

14:42

Carrot would be more like a linter or a formatting utility

yeah yeah fine :p

I think it's pretty funny tho lol

Ginger

how about this: breed can be the internal dependency resolution engine

Rydwolf Programs

And you can't stop me from aliasing it in my bashrc for the rest of time

Ginger

because you use carrots to breed rabbits, as Minecraft taught us

Rydwolf Programs

Okay I actually like that yeah

Ginger

oh I just had an awful idea: newer versions of packages (since multiple can be installed at once) are diff files between the older package and the newer one

I will not be adding this but what if I did

Rydwolf Programs

14:44

That's an actually valid option I was gonna suggest

Well, not diff files

But maybe some sort of overlay filesystem for small updates, so that unchanged files don't have duplicate copies

mousetail

Automatically hardlink identical files

Ginger

sounds like ✨premature optimization✨

mousetail

For sure

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail That's probably a better way to do it yeah

mousetail

Needing to install multiple versions should be a rare occurrence if packages properly set the ranges they can accept

Ginger

14:46

okay, now that we have the package system nailed down, we just need to write the actual interpreter, which I'm sure will be the easy part :p

Rydwolf Programs

OverlayFS and similar can be weird to make backups of, and it would mean you can't run it in a Docker container

Ginger

and by "we" I mean "I" ~~unless anyone else is foolish enough to help~~

mousetail

@Ginger I still don't understand it

Ginger

I don't understand git, but I use it every day :b

@RydwolfPrograms so, in case you missed it, here's some preview WIP Rabbit code:

public main function counting() -> int:
	[print(i) for i in 1..]
	return 0

mousetail

The return shouldn't be nececairy

Rydwolf Programs

14:48

^

Ginger

what will it return then?

because implicitly returning 0 feels weird

mousetail

A Never type specifically for this purpose

Ginger

hm, like Rust's !?

mousetail

Yep

Typescript has it too

Rydwolf Programs

Ehhh

main shouldn't return !

! is for things that panic or run infinitely

main usually does return

It should return ()

mousetail

14:49

If main runs infinitely it should return !

Rydwolf Programs

So to make sure I understand this. Rabbit's package manager is called carrot. Carrot's a normal package manager, it just installs a module, then recursively installs its dependencies. A Rabbit program can be packaged into a single bundle containing all of its code and dependency modules, which is how you'd share the program with end user. Some modules can be dynamically linked, which would mean they're installed independently and shared between multiple programs.

Ginger

^^

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail It makes no difference tho

Ginger

@RydwolfPrograms correct

Rydwolf Programs

Nothing depends on main, so the compiler doesn't care whether it's ! or () if it doesn't terminate. If it does terminate, ! is actually wrong, unlike () for an infinite loop, which is valid but bad practice.

mousetail

14:50

My main point is that the expression [x for i in 1..] should return ! and whatever comes afterwards doesn't matter to the type checker since it can't ever be called

Ginger

remember: Rabbit is interpreted, not compiled

mousetail

There is still a type checker that runs first though?

Ginger

correct

actually, I'm considering making it so that Rabbit programs are "pseudo-built", Python-style, into a kind of optimized bytecode that can then be run by the interpreter

mousetail

Yea in this case the type checker should ignore the lack of a return statement because the function can never exit. All valid code paths, which is none of them, return a value

Rydwolf Programs

The only reason to make main return ! is to make it easier for programmers

Since you don't need to worry about preventing it from returning something

Wait nvm

Semicolons exist

Or if they don't, you probably don't implicitly return the last statement's result

Ginger

14:53

^

mousetail

Returning () is returning nothing, returning ! is never returning

Rydwolf Programs

Are we talking about main in general or this specific example

mousetail

Your statement about preventing it from returning something seems to apply mostly to (), not !

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah

Ginger

slight gripe: I don't like () as the "nothing" type

Rydwolf Programs

14:54

Why? It literally is nothing

A zero length tuple is no data

mousetail

@Ginger Yea not a huge fan either

Rydwolf Programs

(in a compiled lang at least)

Ginger

I don't like the fact that it's a tuple

Rydwolf Programs

Use nothing or similar then

Ginger

a tuple, regardless of length, is not "nothing" to my brain

so I will make nothing a keyword, like true or false, and use it instead

Rydwolf Programs

14:55

But in a compiled lang a zero length tuple is literally zero bits

So it makes sense

pxeger

it's not "nothing", it's "something about which there are no interesting properties"

Ginger

ah yes, dirt

mousetail

@pxeger In rust it's literally nothing

Rydwolf Programs

^

pxeger

Yes when compiled it's represented by zero bits of memory

Ginger

14:55

ok, here we go:

public main function counting() -> nothing:
	[print(i) for i in 1..]

pxeger

but it is still an object that you can use

mousetail

Most uses will be removed by the optimizer

Ginger

bold of you to assume I have an optimizer

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail Yeah, advantage of ! as the main return type is you can return anything from main without the compiler complaining

I think main should be special cased honestly

mousetail

Doing pretty much anything to () is a no-op that will get compiled away

Ginger

14:56

what should main be able to return? I'm thinking nothing or int or Result right now

Rydwolf Programs

I'm thinking nothing. Not nothing, nothing. No ->.

It should be special cased to be able to return either nothing, or never return, or an error if you do Rust-style ?

Ginger

well, no -> implicitly represents nothing

Rydwolf Programs

For main it should be special cased

Ginger

why?

I get nothing out of doing that

Rydwolf Programs

So infinite loops don't make the compiler complain

Ginger

14:58

...it's not compiled q:

Rydwolf Programs

Interpreter

You know what I mean :p

Ginger

hmm

(I also don't like ! as the "never" type, so never gets to be a keyword too)

mousetail

A function that infinite loops should be able to return any type

That shouldn't even be a warning

Rydwolf Programs

I guess yeah

Ginger

so like main is always assumed to return nothing or never unless you explicitly say otherwise?

Rydwolf Programs

14:59

Actually yeah mousetail's right

mousetail

There is no real use returning never from main, since never is a instance of every possible type effectively

Rabbit packaging

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