The Nineteenth Byte

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: (untitled), Resolve a string containing \b, \t and \r code-golfstring

Wheat Wizard

01:26

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hey didn't you have a Jelly fork? Is that still maintained? Do many people use it?

emanresu A

Caird only uses it when it's better than Jelly, which is quite rare. I believe they were planning to continue working on Jam at some point

emanresu A

03:11

@RadvylfPrograms Is this your sock:

Dyad Hand

91 3

Neil

09:55

wow, for once my accidental windows update reboot didn't lose my place in chat

PyGamer0

10:14

lol

caird coinheringaahing

12:13

@WheatWizard Yes, technically yes, and not really

lyxal

the last commit to Jam was an unripe avocado. That doesn't seem like the best thing to be adding to jam.

caird coinheringaahing

Tbh, all my Lang dev has been on the severe back burner for the last couple of years

lyxal

wait no it's not unripe, it's moldy as hell

UndoneStudios

Hello

lyxal

See? Caird commited a 8ad (ava)cada :p

UndoneStudios

12:18

Which hat leaderboard?

lyxal

the code golf stack exchange winter bash hat leaderboard

UndoneStudios

I can't find it

if there is any

lyxal

winterbash2022.stackexchange.com/leaderboard/…

UndoneStudios

I'm #19th

At least I'm on the front page

Wait a minute I'm tied with DLosc

Increases my suspicions that I'm their sock

Ginger

13:13

and that finishes Winter Bash 2022

@lyxal I'm coming for first next year

lyxal

but can you loop until a loop is loopable?

Ginger

I sure can

lyxal

and can you R Dyadic link function?

Ginger

I don't know, can you unpack a recursively nested self-referential Sondheim calculus matrix?

lyxal

Jelly probably can

Ginger

13:16

NO bugs, NO vulnerabilities, probably no optimization either cause it feeds on dyadic links :p

lyxal

kandi has reviewed jellylanguage and discovered the below as its top functions. This is intended to give you an instant insight into jellylanguage implemented functionality, and help decide if they suit your requirements.

    Perform a monadic chain
        R dyadic link function
        Return a list of links
        Calculate the depth of a link
    Synthesize a chain
    Parse a literal
        Decompress a string
        Generate an integer from a list of digits
    Convert an integer to a base

> Convert an integer to a base

Ginger

me and the boys splitting arrays around needles and computing json hashes

lyxal

not from another base, it converts the integer to the actual base used

Ginger

reminds me of this :p

although he did make a good point about tell exchangenoob stackotherwise

Ginger

13:45

okay so

has anyone here ever heard of Kano?

lyxal

isn't that like some sort of todo board organisation system

Ginger

no, it is (or was) a computer company

I'm not sure if they're still in business, but one of the things they made was the "Kano Computer Kit", which was a Raspberry Pi with a case and a few other doodads, including a custom OS

the OS in question was kinda supposed to be a gamification of Linux, and included a piece of software which I believe was just called "Story Mode"

it was a game, which I remember fondly, that was based around your player exploring the Raspberry Pi's circuit board, but like the components on the board were physical locations

like the power light was a lighthouse near the edge of the map

it was a really clever idea, but the OS project seems to be dead

so I've been toying with the idea of remaking this game

but it'd be a lot of work and I've already got projects I'm working on (Klein, Complement)

lyxal

big_boy = int("9"*3234)
big_boy *= big_boy * big_boy
big_boy += 21
small_boy = -big_boy

Actual code I've written

Ginger

._.

lyxal

class Bruh(Exception):
    def __init__(self, msg):
        print("I can't believe you've done this...")

Ginger

13:51

what the fuf

pxeger

@lyxal what the hell is that website

the "product tour" has this video: kandi.openweaver.com/cnsmrrsrcs/KandiOverviewVideo.a91dedca.mp4

which is right in the uncanny valley for me

Ginger

okay, I have found the latest (and last I think) version of Kanux

it's a 1.8GB zipped image file, so I can't download it right now

lyxal

@Ginger 2018 was when I really didn't know how to make good esolangs

Ginger

lol

mathcat

@pxeger ...

cringe

Ginger

14:22

this is interesting

clearly we need to send a delegation to this event :p

mathcat

Fun fact: I read a blog from a certain tech company, and it featured xkcds.

I didn't know they were that famous.

Ginger

I think it'd be fair to say that xkcd is the [Big Shot] of geek webcomics

mousetail

14:55

XKCD's are very mainstream

and have been for a while

Ginger

ok I just did some research and the Paper Swap "storage device" is technically possible for me to do

it is not a good idea but it is possible

for this I will use nbdkit, which according to its docs is "a toolkit for creating NBD servers from â€œunconventionalâ€� sources"

sounds good to me :p

I'm kinda an â€œunconventionalâ€� person if you know what I mean

pxeger

15:13

@Ginger tom7.org/harder

Ginger

@pxeger I know, that's what I meant by "research" :p

UndoneStudios

15:31

Hi

@lyxal I actually tried that and the result is this:

ok it's too long

Sandbox Posts

16:12

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Calculate the McCombination In 2002, McDonald's advertised a McChoice menu of 8 items, labelled with "40,312 combinations." However, this number is far greater than the actual number of combinations (255; 2^8=256, minus 1 for empty meal). What the McDonald's marketing team calculated was how many...

Darren Smith

16:35

Hello, I'm working on a new language that isn't designed for code golf per se, but when it is done it would be quite good for a language that only uses symbol operators (e.g. golfscript/k/etc). It's lazy and vectorized and has no functions but remains succinct because of a technique cool called circular programming.

I would be really interested in feedback as it is still in early stages and I feel like people in this chat know APL/K really well (of which I do not). Currently I am trying to decide on the default vectorization level to use, and started a google group for discussing that (or any issue).

If you want to try it I would use it from this commit since I changed default vectorization level and haven't updated documentation after that yet: github.com/darrenks/atlas/commit/…

And here is google group if interested in discussing: groups.google.com/g/atlas-lang. I'll also read comments here if you have quick thoughts. Thanks! Oh also if you know a place that this would be up their alley feel free to point me in that direction too.

Ginger

hmmmmm

@DarrenSmith well, you've come to the right place :p

Darren Smith

16:51

Cool!

Adám

@DarrenSmith You may want to read up on "vectorisation" at APL Wiki.

Also, if you want (even) more people knowing APL/K, check out their dedicated chat rooms:

The APL Orchard

the k tree

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Rotate an Image code-golf image-processing This challenge is simple: Take a path to an png image file as input and overwrite that file with a copy of itself rotated 90 degrees clockwise. You may assume that the file has dimensions of 128x128 pixels. Examples Input: Output: This is code-golf, so...

Sandbox Posts

17:22

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Is it a Shift matrix? A Shift matrix is a binary matrix with ones only on one superdiagonal or subdiagonal, and zeros elsewhere. A superdiagonal/subdiagonal is a diagonal parallel to the main diagonal, which is not the main diagonal. The main diagonal is defined to be all entries \$a_{ij}\$ where...

mathcat

Combo time!

UndoneStudios

17:35

@SandboxPosts has 91 rep. Wonder where they got it from

DLosc

@DarrenSmith We also have a dedicated room for esolang development, The Tarpit, although it's frozen at the moment.

mathcat

9

A: xkcd 2385 KoTH (Final Exam)

The Root of the Problem The title is a pun...this bot just finds the geometric mean of the previous round, and returns that. { name: "The Root of the Problem", run(scores) { return scores.reduce((p, s) => p * s, 1) ** (1 / scores.length) } } I am a bot. This answer was posted by a real p...

UndoneStudios

Ah

At first sight I read it as "xkcd 2038" KoTH (Final Exam)

I wish SE chat oneboxed xkcds

Ginger

17:52

it does

DLosc

@DarrenSmith I looked through the GitHub readme and this seems really cool!

Ginger

18:08

I just wrote the sed program s/\\n/\n/g :/

Darren Smith

Thanks DLosc

I'll check out those chats as well @Adám

Sandbox Posts

18:48

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

ASCII Values Quine Write a program consisting of only valid ASCII characters that prints out a sequence of integer values corresponding to the ASCII characters in the source code. For example, the program: print("Hello, World!") has a valid corresponding integer sequence of: 112 114 105 110 116...

Simd

19:19

Can anyone answer ceilingcat's question about how to use f128 on TIO or ATO?

Simd

21:17

hello!

Seggan

22:46

> jellylanguage is a Python library typically used in Artificial Intelligence, Natural Language Processing applications

Radvylf Programs

LDQ: Opinions on ++ and --?

My opinion is they should exist but be postfix-only

Removes a lot of the ambiguity, while keeping what are (IMO) useful and elegant operators

Seggan

@RadvylfPrograms this

Bubbler

Standalone x++ can be replaced with x+=1. Using the return value of x++ (assuming "return the original value before increment") is simply too confusing.

Seggan

using x+=1 instead of x++ is something i miss in rust and abhor in python

emanresu A

23:01

++ is elegant

Bubbler

Also I think modern constructs have eliminated lots of use cases of x++ anyway

like range, enumerate, etc

Unrelated String

there are cases where you increment something other than a loop variable but it definitely doesn't need as privileged a position in modern languages

i still like having ++ but it can definitely go both ways

Bubbler

23:19

and existence of ++ allows expressions like i=i++ which is outright UB in C/C++

Adám

@RadvylfPrograms I definitely against. It is ad-hoc syntax when no such ad-hoc syntax is needed (x+=1).

Radvylf Programs

Yeah but i += 1 plays weird with operator precedence and doesn't return as useful of a value

Bubbler

> Using the return value of x++ (assuming "return the original value before increment") is simply too confusing.

Radvylf Programs

How's it confusing?

It's what the operator does

Bubbler

How do you use its return value in your code?

Radvylf Programs

23:29

All the time. Incrementing a value after doing some sort of operation is fairly common, especially when you're writing code with loops (which I really love. imperative is so underrated), and doing it all at once feels really nice

Quite often in that situation you'll have initialized a value to something you actually want to use, not use after having incremented it

Bubbler

Whenever I see it in a larger expression like for(;x-->0;), I have to stop and think for a minute

Unrelated String

as elegant as the return can be i think this also is a good indicator of some of the problems with imperative :P

Radvylf Programs

And in C-style for loops, which I really like, it makes things much more compact

Unrelated String

where you have the choice elegance should be reserved for functional stuff

Bubbler

@RadvylfPrograms Please no, one reason I hate C/C++ is precisely that

Radvylf Programs

23:31

No I don't mean cursed C-style for loops, just regular ones where you have ; i++ at the end

i = 0; i < end; i++ will always be better than i in range(end) fight me :p

Bubbler

for i in 0..end wins for me

Unrelated String

^

Radvylf Programs

With some parens around that I think I agree

Unrelated String

if you're iterating over a range... iterate over a range

caird coinheringaahing

I prefer over to in tbh

Radvylf Programs

23:33

I absolutely hate if/for/whatevers without parentheses around the condition

caird coinheringaahing

Because i runs over the range

Unrelated String

no

Bubbler

also: try to write for i in 0..=i16::MAX in C

Unrelated String

no not that

ATaco

@RadvylfPrograms limiting ourselves to only ++ and — are cowardly. Let me use >>>> to rshift 1. heck, %% can be equivalent to fract(I)

Bubbler

23:34

lol

Unrelated String

yes

caird coinheringaahing

Take an infix op, and repeat it for an implicit right argument of 1

** becomes a no-op, as does ****

Radvylf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing "for every item i over [list/range]" sounds really unnatural to me

lyxal

Cursed idea: for (i = start) in end with end being implicitly cast to a range :p

Radvylf Programs

But seriously, if condition { ... } just feels like it's missing something. The parentheses just add so much structure and clarity

Unrelated String

23:36

they really don't

caird coinheringaahing

Just do i = start; label i: block; i = start + 1; goto i

Radvylf Programs

Especially in languages that allow them to be used as expressions

Parsing 1 + if x == 2 { 4 } else { 8 } * 3 is just blegh

Unrelated String

if anything the parens in that case should be around the whole thing :P

caird coinheringaahing

@RadvylfPrograms smh, just do if x==2 {13} else {15}

Radvylf Programs

IMO C-style ternary is an absolute must-have, it removes so much unnecessary verbosity

caird coinheringaahing

23:37

-like 10 bytes, ez

ATaco

@RadvylfPrograms can you not wrap it in a parenthetical anyway?

Radvylf Programs

@RadvylfPrograms I'm fairly sure this is just bias from using so many langs that have this syntax, but still

caird coinheringaahing

Tbh, I've never liked in-line if statements, especially in languages that have ?: ternary statements

ATaco

@RadvylfPrograms not Lua style jank ternaries? cond and truthy or falsely

Bubbler

?: Ternary needs its own level of precedence. if ... expressions don't

Radvylf Programs

23:40

@ATaco Sure, unless it's something like a for ... in, but that doesn't help with reading other people's code or keep my code from having weird nonstandard syntax

Unrelated String

i like having if statements and ternary expressions as the same thing but i don't like how if statements look as inline ternaries :P

Radvylf Programs

@Bubbler Why's that an issue

It's not like "number of levels of precedence" is some huge performance bottleneck or implementation headache, otherwise we'd all be using APL

Bubbler

Not exactly an issue but having 20 levels of precedence is not great :P

Radvylf Programs

I think ternary kinda gets a pass though, I only start getting annoyed with things like prefixed await and new

Bubbler

and chained ?: can be ambiguous points at PHP

caird coinheringaahing

23:41

Don't forget about JS

Radvylf Programs

Yeah ?: being ambiguous with a lot of other really nice syntax features is its only downside

caird coinheringaahing

PHP, by itself, isn't ambiguous. It's only because there's other conventions

Bubbler

and expressions that can be read in multiple ways is a burden to a programmer

ATaco

I think ?: can lead to really cluttered code. The moment you’re using a ternary in a ternary it’s already too late

Radvylf Programs

Yeah but people will always find ways to clutter their code

?: can be a great tool for de-cluttering too

An infinite sea of if-elses isn't great either

Especially when the ternary would be in the middle of a statement so you need repeated code or a temporary variable

Wheat Wizard

23:45

I think that once ?: is decluttering your code there is a definitely already a failure.

Radvylf Programs

?

Unrelated String

nah ternaries have very valid use cases

Wheat Wizard

If your code is so cluttered that something like ?: can make it clearer, there is a problem.

ATaco

@RadvylfPrograms You're right, In order to prevent cluttered code, my next language will not support code.

Wheat Wizard

Sometimes that problem is at the language design level.

Radvylf Programs

23:46

@WheatWizard I'm writing a terrain generator right now and there's allll sorts of branching that needs to be done for various possibilities. Using a full if/else for every ternary I have would like, double my code size. That's clutter, but I'd consider the code pretty clean for what it does.

ATaco

Surely after a certain amount of if/else, a switch statement or dictionary should be considered?

Bubbler

@RadvylfPrograms I guess you're so much used to golfed code that you think anything verbose is bad :P

Radvylf Programs

@ATaco No else-ifs, just a ton of choosing between two items

ATaco

(Even the dreaded Javascript upside down switch)

Unrelated String

some sequential if-else chains aren't logically matches but yeah a situation like that should be given its own "space" anyways

lyxal

23:47

@ATaco Upside down switch?

Radvylf Programs

@Bubbler No, but verbosity is only good when it improves readability, and using five lines of code to choose between two numbers is the opposite of that

ATaco

```
switch(true){
case (a > b): do something
case (a == 3): do something else
case (b == 3): Or this
default: Or this
```

Wheat Wizard

@RadvylfPrograms I'm not saying that if/else is much better, it's basically the same thing. If the language is funneling you into a place where you have to have nests like this with no option for abstractionthen it's a failure.

emanresu A

@RadvylfPrograms for(i in end) /s

lyxal

@ATaco oh. That's definitely some of the code ever written

emanresu A

23:49

@ATaco break bruh

ATaco

My brother in christ the code literally says do something

Radvylf Programs

@WheatWizard What exactly am I supposed to abstract out of my code, everything's doing different things

Bubbler

@RadvylfPrograms What's wrong with let x = if cond { 2 } else { 3 }; on a line?

Wheat Wizard

@RadvylfPrograms I can't see your code.

Radvylf Programs

@Bubbler It's the same code except someone sat on it, no improvement

ATaco

23:50

I think I prefer two lines.
```
let x = if cond {2}
else {3}
```

Bubbler

It's only 10 bytes longer than let x = cond ? 2 : 3;

and likely it won't overflow your line width solely because of that

Unrelated String

@RadvylfPrograms i think having the option to elegantly make it five lines is good

Radvylf Programs

@WheatWizard It's more of a rhetorical question, I'm just saying that abstraction doesn't solve most real world problems

lyxal

[2, 3][cond]

Unrelated String

because the conditions and results may become more complex in the future

emanresu A

23:51

That's not how ternaries work

Radvylf Programs

@UnrelatedString Who's saying the option to use if/else shouldn't exist

Bubbler

@lyxal TypeError

Radvylf Programs

I'm just saying ternary should

@lyxal I've been forced to do that more than once

ATaco

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hmmstve

emanresu A

cond
?
2
:
3

Radvylf Programs

23:51

@lyxal Honestly cosnidering it as the legitimate ternary syntax for an upcoming language

ATaco

eval("52 3".sub(cond*2, 2))

lyxal

@Bubbler no

Wheat Wizard

@RadvylfPrograms Well this is practical advice. Most cure-alls don't work, a solution has to be deeply rooted in the problem itself.

Radvylf Programs

And if the problem is "I've got to choose between two values over and over again in wildly different contexts", making choosing between two values shorter is a pretty good solution

Unrelated String

@RadvylfPrograms yeah unironically that's not a bad idea

Radvylf Programs

23:54

One disadvantage is no implicit bool casting tho

Which even in statically typed langs I'm a fan of

Bubbler

@lyxal yes

@RadvylfPrograms That's... a very specific use case of a language

Wheat Wizard

@RadvylfPrograms This is a poor way to frame the problem.

Bubbler

also having two syntaxes for literally the same thing isn't great

Radvylf Programs

Sure, but "choosing between two values" is a pretty general thing to want to do

lyxal

@Bubbler I didn't mean rust

Bubbler

23:55

I did

Radvylf Programs

@Bubbler IMO ternary for expressions and if/else for statements is a pretty big difference

lyxal

@Bubbler ok

ATaco

It's important to note that executing only half of it is as important as choosing between half of it.

Wheat Wizard

@RadvylfPrograms It's in some ways general, but in some ways specific. You've set up a framing of the problem that admits only one solution. That does not mean that the problem has only one solution.

ATaco

Thus, print([@5, @2][1<2]())

Nothing obtuse about that syntax, right?

Bubbler

23:57

@ makes something lazy?

or is it a lambda

ATaco

A lambda in this case.

Bubbler

That's... certainly a design choice

Radvylf Programs

@WheatWizard Yeah, and it's a framing that can be really convenient when you have a compact way to choose between two values

Wheat Wizard

@RadvylfPrograms You are just repeating the framing?

It really seems that you have decided what the solution must be and are building the problem to make the solution work.

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