The Nineteenth Byte

Sʨɠɠan

3:00 PM

interesting

ill dash it then

graffe

cool

Sʨɠɠan

ok here be the updated one

cc: @emanresuA

graffe

@Sʨɠɠan nice

Adám

@Sʨɠɠan What is this?

Sʨɠɠan

26 mins ago, by Sʨɠɠan

so yesterday i posted a graph of programming language relationships, divided into 5 year segments. at the request of @emanresuA here is that with golflangs:

14 hours ago, by Sʨɠɠan

so i made a graph with a bunch of languages and how they relate to each other. each column is a 5 year time period. dotted lines are influences

Adám

3:07 PM

Colours, inclusion criteria?

graffe

the main question is, do they actually get better over time? :)

Sʨɠɠan

23 mins ago, by Sʨɠɠan

@mousetail black is praclang. red is 1st gen, green 2nd gen, blue 3rd gen, purple frac byte

Adám

:-)

But the goal is including golflangs?

Sʨɠɠan

@Adám inclusion criteria is popularity as judged by me

graffe

praclang? frac byte?

Adám

3:08 PM

What is Arn? Never heard of it.

Sʨɠɠan

ive seen it a few times

graffe

@Adám npmjs.com/package/arn-language ?

Sʨɠɠan

github.com/ZippyMagician/Arn

Adám

Why isn't K on the chart?

Sʨɠɠan

@Adám emanresu asked me

@Adám because i forgot

Adám

3:12 PM

I'd argue (with support from Wikipedia) that APL also influenced Matlab and Mathematica.

31

A: What are the relationships between programming languages created by PPCG users

Using the format of Webgraphviz. Links to pages about the languages can be found on TIO. # non-PPCG languages are lightgrey, non-languages are white # PPCG languages are not colored for simplicity # this has the effect of making PPCG be languages with a border digraph PPCGGenealogy { nodesep=0...

Sʨɠɠan

Java -> Python

makes no sense; python was released before java

Adám

There can be influences after initial release.

Sʨɠɠan

i dont see how

Adám

3:28 PM

What do I know. Just following Wikipedia (which I've found had wrong info on such things for other languages):

Sʨɠɠan

interesting

wikipedia wasnt correct about perl -> julia either

graffe

except for PCRE :)

Sʨɠɠan

that was an intermediate :)

its like ocaml ---> kotlin

though scala

Adám

It also said APL→LYaPAS which was completely wrong.

Sʨɠɠan

scala wed java and caml, but kotlin took out most of ocaml

graffe

3:32 PM

so.. which of the languages in the graph have been completely obsoleted by at least one of the other languages? In other words, for which languages is there no situation where it is the best choice any more?

Sʨɠɠan

algol, bcpl, b?

graffe

that looks right to start with but I am not sure anyone ever actually used algol

I don't know about the other two

Adám

Oh yes they did.

Sʨɠɠan

pretty much every ancestor and sibling of c is obsolete (except maybe fortran)

Adám

Right, Fortran is definitely not dead.

graffe

3:34 PM

fortran is still very useful

for those who care about code speed in certain situations

Sʨɠɠan

> ALGOL heavily influenced many other languages and was the standard method for algorithm description used by the Association for Computing Machinery (ACM) in textbooks and academic sources for more than thirty years.

graffe

so... the ancestors of C are dead (except fortran)

Sʨɠɠan

basically

and i think its siblings too

graffe

I miss quickbasic ... the last language where I could be bothered to make animations

it's just too annoying in C or Python

Sʨɠɠan

i didint bother to add all the basic dialects

just basic and tibasic

graffe

3:37 PM

that makes sense

although quickbasic 4 was the best basic by far

maybe quickbasic 4.5 :)

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms I'd had the idea for a half-byte Lisp for a while, but Risky inspired me to actually do something about it.

Radvylf Programs

That's what I'd thought yeah

Sʨɠɠan

cobol is dead too, just so much legacy code uses it that i kept it on the list

graffe

it used to be you could get paid a lot as a cobol programmer because there weren't any but there was plenty of cobol code that needed maintaining

maybe you still can?

docs.juliaplots.org/latest/animations is pretty

DLosc

@graffe True! Although the language I miss most for animations is ActionScript.

graffe

3:42 PM

@DLosc I have never tried that! And now it's too late :(

DLosc

@Sʨɠɠan You can add PHP and Perl as influences on Pip. There are also a few ideas from Lisp, CJam, and Rebmu in there, but I don't know that those are significant enough to warrant arrows.

graffe

the name pip is confusing for us python coders

@Sʨɠɠan Turns out Dylan is the closest language to Julia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_(programming_language)

so that is between lisp and julia

DLosc

@graffe Despite Python being my main language for years, I hadn't ever used or heard of the Python package manager when I came up with the name :P

graffe

@DLosc ah :) How did you live without it?

@Sʨɠɠan also I think your link should be from common lisp to julia not directly from lisp

DLosc

@graffe Batteries included FTW

graffe

3:49 PM

@DLosc :)

common lisp has multiple dispatch

which julia people can't stop banging on about

DLosc

@graffe I usually just need re, sys, and random. Sometimes os and math. The only extra packages I've ever installed were Pygame and I think one that generated Voronoi diagrams.

Sʨɠɠan

^

graffe

@DLosc that's a nice combination of packages

@DLosc what do you think of pygame?

@Sʨɠɠan ?

DLosc

@graffe Not as easy to work with as QBasic ;P

graffe

@DLosc :-D nothing is ....

why don't they make a language as good as qbasic!

Sʨɠɠan

3:55 PM

@graffe i was repeating what dlosc said

@DLosc was python accurate?

DLosc

@DLosc Other than that, I never got far enough with the projects that would've used it to form an informed opinion.

PyGamer0

@graffe ok i think i understand multiple dispatch, is it a fancy name for function overloading?

graffe

I just want a language where I can do for x in 0...100; plot((10, x)) and it plots it one point at a time!

@PyGamer0 there is a lot of discussion online about how they are different

@PyGamer0 e.g.discourse.julialang.org/t/…

DLosc

@Sʨɠɠan Yeah, I'm sure it's more Python than anything else. I'm so used to thinking in Python that I can't even think of Python-specific things about Pip--the parts I notice as inspired by something are the parts that aren't like Python.

Sʨɠɠan

lol

PyGamer0

4:00 PM

@graffe i still don't understand the difference, both literally look the same

Sʨɠɠan

interesting that most golflangs were made in 2015

PyGamer0

oh multiple dispatch selects function based on all its arguments during runtime

graffe

yes

I just google "multiple distance function overloading" and read stuff :)

I don't have any real expertise on this

Sʨɠɠan

heres the graphviz code: pastebin.com/aa0y5CBs

graffe

"It is not the same, function overloading is a specific case of multiple dispatch, where you just use the type or class of the arguments, to provide the dispatch.

Multiple Dispatch allows for an arbitrary dispatch function that takes all the parameters and can do anything to decide the dispatch, for instance you could take x,y,z as parameters, then determine named directions like northeast above, or southwest below, and then define a method for each named direction. "

DLosc

4:03 PM

@Sʨɠɠan Oh--there's a bit of APL in there too. Not sure if it was directly inspired by APL or some other array language. (Or maybe even an existing golflang? I don't remember. But it wouldn't have been any of the ones that came out in 2015.)

graffe

@PyGamer0 does that quote help?

DLosc

Pip is a cobbled-together chimera of a language, lol

graffe

has anyone here ever coded in Dylan?

PyGamer0

@graffe yea

graffe

@PyGamer0 that makes you very cool :)

how did you come to do that?

PyGamer0

4:06 PM

i understood the difference

graffe

between what?

PyGamer0

> for instance you could take x,y,z as parameters, then determine named directions like northeast above, or southwest below, and then define a method for each named direction.

graffe

oh cool

PyGamer0

i didn't understand this part tho

@graffe function overloading and multiple dispatch

graffe

what I don't understand is why they love it so much

I can't imagine where I would really want to use it

but it makes them very happy

PyGamer0

4:07 PM

@graffe yeah, why do they like it?

graffe

@PyGamer0 I am not sure but they really do

DLosc

@graffe Non-golfers looking at Jelly be like

graffe

:)

PyGamer0

i think it is faster than function overloading or something

graffe

it's like anime girls, I don't understand why people like them either :)

PyGamer0

4:09 PM

lol true

@graffe we must consult a weeb

Sʨɠɠan

@graffe lol same

graffe

@Sʨɠɠan :)

I even tried googling "sexiest anime girls" and nothing... I mean there are ranked lists but ... nothing

it's very sad

@PyGamer0 you just taught me a new word! Thanks

although weeb should surely be a web programming language

PyGamer0

@graffe weeb code would be like piet, but instead of pixels it would be pictures of anime girls

graffe

@PyGamer0 that's much better

anyone here able to do that?

PyGamer0

CMC: Make Weeb an actual language. ^^^

DLosc

4:14 PM

@PyGamer0 ಠ_ಠ

graffe

followed by CMQ make us understand why anyone cares about anime girls

Sʨɠɠan

i support this ^

DLosc

@Sʨɠɠan Given that Tips for golfing in CJam was posted in 2014, I think your 2015 date for CJam is not accurate.

PyGamer0

@Sʨɠɠan and flax was made in 2021 not 2020 :P (and its spelled all lowercase :P)

DLosc

The first CJam answer is from April 2014, so 2014 seems like a safe guess.

PyGamer0

4:21 PM

can someone tell my why this doesnt work? ato.pxeger.com/…

DLosc

@PyGamer0 I've never used match, so I can't help you there, but I can tell you that type(x)!=int or type(x)!=float is always going to evaluate to True, no matter what x is. Probably not what you intended.

PyGamer0

... i am bad at programming

Radvylf Programs

Okay I am definitely making my evolution simulator into a KotH

I can already think of all sorts of cool strategies you could do

And if you had teams of organisms working together, more like individual cells, you could do some crazy stuff

PyGamer0

@DLosc ok i got it working

ato.pxeger.com/…

DLosc

@Sʨɠɠan Is it fair to say Nibbles is a descendant of Golfscript? IIRC they belong to completely different paradigms, and Nibbles is more like Husk (though I'm not sure if it was inspired by Husk).

Also GolfScript is based on Ruby.

Radvylf Programs

4:34 PM

@DLosc That's my mistake

They were made by the same person but I misremembered that as Nibbles being GS-inspired

graffe

anyone here studied complexity theory at uni?

DLosc

@PyGamer0 Ah, it's keyword-arg matching. Interesting.

@graffe I would say "was briefly exposed to" more than "studied," but yes.

graffe

@DLosc did you learn about PTAS and FPTAS?

How do you solve this?

DLosc

@graffe No, sorry

graffe

np

Sʨɠɠan

4:43 PM

@DLosc I looksed at the first activity on sourceforge

@PyGamer0 oops copypaste error

yep, first CJam answer was 2014

1

A: Count the unique fractions with only integers

CJam - 18 22 100,:):X{dXf/}%:|, Oops, I had missed the "no floating point" requirement. Here is an integer-based solution: 100,:):X_:*f*{Xf/}%:|, CJam is a new language I am developing, similar to GolfScript - http://sf.net/p/cjam. Here is the explanation: 100, makes an array [0 1 ... 99] :)...

lol sniped

@DLosc was basing my decision on the fact that it was implemented in java

i 100% know that ones i did for fig are correct

first GS answer was way back in 2009

first GS answer on SO (and therefore ever)

DLosc

5:00 PM

@Sʨɠɠan It was? The current official implementation is in Ruby, the Esolangs article mentions Ruby a lot, and there are some pretty Ruby-specific edge cases that can be exploited for golfing.

graffe

@DLosc the answer is yes :)

Sʨɠɠan

5:12 PM

@DLosc i saw somewhere that it was in java

or maybe cjam was in java

LDQ: does it make sense to have normal strings and multiline strings? instead of just normal strings for both cases (i.e. allow normal strings to span multiple lines)

i think it does not

DLosc

@Sʨɠɠan I believe CJam is implemented in Java, yes

Sʨɠɠan

5:41 PM

another LDQ: should i have a char type?

DLosc

Are we talking golflang or practical?

Sʨɠɠan

practical

statically typed, but transpiled to lua

DLosc

@Sʨɠɠan I think the idea behind not allowing newlines in regular strings is that it's easy to forget a closing quote by accident, and then suddenly a bunch of your code is now part of a multiline string, giving you confusing error messages.

Sʨɠɠan

~~syntax highlighting~~

DLosc

~~But I write code in Notepad~~

More seriously, TIO/ATO/DSO don't have syntax highlighting (at the moment).

Sʨɠɠan

5:49 PM

true

DLosc

@Sʨɠɠan Do you want to be able to do character math? (E.g. 'A'+32 = 'a') Also, how are strings handled in the transpiled code?

Sʨɠɠan

@DLosc strings are handled as lua strings

idk abt char math

i like the idea, but the usecases are small

DLosc

It's probably simplest (and most efficient) to stick with how Lua does it

A character type is most useful in a lower-level language like C, where it represents the underlying implementation

In a higher-level language, you're less likely to need character math because you'll have builtins like toLower

Sʨɠɠan

true

Ginger

g'day mfers

laptop is back in action

Radvylf Programs

6:03 PM

@Sʨɠɠan IMO neither

Multiline strings lead to either an ugly lack of indentation, or a need for the language to be aware of how it's indented, and for almost all cases it's more elegant to either use string concatenation (esp. if "a" "b" -> "ab" is a feature) or a separate file

@Sʨɠɠan I think it only makes sense in low level languages

My rule would be: If strings are primitives, no. If they aren't, then add a char primitive.

Sʨɠɠan

@RadvylfPrograms i disagree, but interesting points

Ginger

6:31 PM

a convenient side-effect of the laptop repair is that my capslock light works again

which is nice

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Isn't that firmware? What did you do to it that caused it to not work?

Ginger

I have absolutely no idea

turned it on one day and it just ceased functioning

but it's fine now

Ginger

6:56 PM

reading about the language server protocol, which is an insanely clever solution to a pretty big problem but also extremely complicated

I want Klein to support as many features from that protocol as possible, which means I have to read pretty much the whole thing :)

Sʨɠɠan

interesting

Ginger

once again, python fails to be consistent by not actually having an official language server

there are a few options but I think I'm going to use this one for Klein bc it seems to be very actively maintained

however, it doesn't support linting and stuff

hmmmmmmmmmm

it's a dilemma

or I could use this project which is a maintained fork of this project

Ginger

7:50 PM

@RadvylfPrograms usually the capslock light is controlled by the OS

Radvylf Programs

oh huh, TIL

Ginger

citation

:p

Sʨɠɠan

@RadvylfPrograms quick q i wanted to ask but never got to it: will tundra have an ffi?

Radvylf Programs

As in like, compatibility with the C ABI and stuff?

Almost certainly not

Sʨɠɠan

no not that, an ffi to any language

also i just noticed a really weird feature in rol: due to the way the parser works its possible to define a function into another package from a different package

package a.b.c

fun d.e.f/foo() {}

that will define foo in d.e.f, not in a.b.c

Ginger

8:00 PM

@RadvylfPrograms and also the fact that I can do stuff like echo 1 > /sys/class/leds/input11\:\:capslock/brightness and have my keyboard's capslock light turn on

which is pretty cool imho :b

exciting raspberry pi kernel update (not really)

kernel updates are boring because you have to wait 3m while some guy named "rpikernelhack" diverts all your dtbos

Radvylf Programs

10:05 PM

We've had scoring related to time complexity, and we've had challenges related to space complexity. I say we unify them and score based on spacetime complexity. The more memory your program uses, the more it warps the fabric of the CPU, changing the execution times you observe.

Sandbox Posts

10:27 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Is this substring list ambiguous? Given a set of substrings, such as [ca, ar, car, rd], it's possible to create infinitely many strings by concatting them together. Some examples of this for the given substrings could be: ca caar card rdca carrd rdrd ... One interesting property of this set of s...

DLosc

10:40 PM

@SandboxPosts -1, example should contain cai so we can make caird :P

caird coinheringaahing

Exactly, the post is clearly not ready for main

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Counting Stripey Bracelets code-golf combinatorics math A bracelet consists of a number, \$N\$, of beads connected in a loop. Each bead may be any of \$C\$ colours. Bracelets are invariant under rotation (shifting beads around the loop) and reflection (turning the bracelet over). Here are all \$...

Radvylf Programs

10:59 PM

Update on NPSP: It's been doing great, no issues in the last couple days. If it makes it until this weekend without any big problems, I'll compare it against the feeds to make sure nothing got skipped silently, then move the bots back into here if everyone's cool with it.

It would be very surprising if something did get skipped, since there's two watch sockets running in parallel and it polls the API every 12-24 minutes to see if it's missed anything, but can't be too careful

One neat feature of NPSP 2.0 is that, in the very unlikely event that it goes down for more than a few seconds, when it comes back and does the API poll, it checks the room to make sure it hasn't been ninja'd. So we won't get any annoying double-posting.

emanresu A

Ooh nice

Sandbox Posts

11:17 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Fastest approximate square root of a floating point number fewest-operations test-battery math approximation In this challenge, you'll approximate the square root of a floating point number, using some basic arithmetic, bitwise, and control flow operators. Your score will take into account the n...

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