The Nineteenth Byte

Sʨɠɠan

20:42

Guys we still need to figure out what to do with AoCG's name

i dont want to keep eric waiting for my reply

Aiden Chow

Yoooooo I can finally say that I have over 9000 rep :p

It’s over 9000 xd

DLosc

@Sʨɠɠan Why not just reply "Okay, we'll change it"? I doubt that he cares what name we actually land on, as long as it doesn't make it look like we're running an official AoC tie-in.

Unrelated String

^

could even tell him we're struggling to think of a new name but are committed to thinking of one

DLosc

I mean, there are plenty of good name ideas, it's just that nobody's made a decision yet.

Sʨɠɠan

20:57

@DLosc hrm, never thought of that :P

mathcat

21:52

@DLosc so uh is a meta post necessary?

Sʨɠɠan

22:07

probably yes

Radvylf Programs

22:30

LDQ: Do you prefer Python-style list comprehensions or .map?

And, bonus LDQ: would .for be a reasonable name for .map? Not sure why but I don't really like the name map

Ginger

I slapped a comment on the AoCG announcement

(yesterday)

@DLosc ye, do we need a meta post? if so I'll go ahead and write it up

Radvylf Programs

Openweathermap seems to think that there's 76% cloud cover where I am right now

The sky is literally completely clear

And I've confirmed the lat/lon and timestamp match up

lyxal

22:50

@mousetail because the author of the post accepted it

Post author gets unilateral decision whether it's applied or not - even if it's denied by reviews

Ginger

@lyxal so you're telling me that I can ignore other people's warnings and execute bad ideas anyway? Sign me up!

Radvylf Programs

Would y'all consider tuples and structs to be collection types?

Ginger

tuples: yes
structs: no

Sʨɠɠan

@RadvylfPrograms both

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Well I mean a tuple is just a struct without named items

Sʨɠɠan

22:54

but if i had to choose one, .map

depends on how verbose your lambda syntax is

Radvylf Programs

It'll be not-verbose

Ginger

@RadvylfPrograms so by struct you mean dict

Radvylf Programs

No I do not

Ginger

what are you talking about then

Radvylf Programs

A struct has a specific, known set of items, which have names

Ginger

22:55

so a frozendict, got it

Radvylf Programs

A dict contains some unknown key-value pairs, and any number of them

Ginger

yes, I'd consider a frozendict/struct a collection

Radvylf Programs

They also can have different key types, whereas structs have no key type, just identifiers which are resolved to indexes at compile time

Ginger

¯\_(ಠ_ಠ)_/¯

Radvylf Programs

That's what makes it a difficult question :p

Ginger

22:59

I would not consider a rust struct a collection

Sʨɠɠan

@RadvylfPrograms i.e python would be map(lambda i: i + 1, nums). in that case, id clearly prefer [i + 1 for i in nums]. but in java its a simple .map(i -> i + 1). so it depends on the language

also .map is written LTR, which is a huge bonus

Radvylf Programs

I'm kind of not sure how to deal with tuples and structs in general in Tundra, since I want to avoid the JS-style "structs and dicts are the same data type", but I also don't necessarily want to have static typing for tuples/structs and nowhere else

Ginger

tf is Tundra

Radvylf Programs

A praclang I'm planning on making

Ginger

cooooooool

~~will it have packages? can I write the manager?~~

Sʨɠɠan

23:01

@RadvylfPrograms you have anything written yet?

Ginger

fr I've been dying for a chance to make a package manager

Radvylf Programs

It will have a package manager, called Taiga, and no, you cannot write it :p

Ginger

>:(

Radvylf Programs

Since I've also been dying to write a package manager

Ginger

>:(

amgry

Sʨɠɠan

23:02

@RadvylfPrograms get rekt

in The Nineteenth Byte, Oct 26 at 2:01, by Radvylf Programs

(that's what it'll be called btw, and the package manager will be Taiga)

Ginger

will you at least give it a nice API so I can add a waterjet pakdef for it?

Radvylf Programs

@Sʨɠɠan No, still going to be a lot of thinking before I'm sure what I want it to be

@Sʨɠɠan You forgot to wait 2m :p

Sʨɠɠan

can you give us at least a simple program so we can see syntax?

like i did with rol

also im thinking of renaming rol

Radvylf Programs

It's basically just JS syntax

Sʨɠɠan

uff

not a big fan

Ginger

23:04

ooh, here's a good question: where exactly should code files for interpreted languages be installed in linux? can't put em in /bin bc not one file

I'd think it'd be /usr/lib or smth but idk

Radvylf Programs

It's a very readable variant of C-style

And C-style is comon enough most people will find it natural

Wait a second, this isn't TNB

:|

Ginger

:P

Radvylf Programs

I've been posting all this LDQ stuff in OTTNB because I thought we were in TNB

Ginger

lol

Radvylf Programs

frick

Ginger

23:05

just move it, you're a RO :b

Radvylf Programs

Maybe I will lol

← 60 messages moved from Off-Topic TNB

Ginger

the madlad actually did it

2 mins ago, by Ginger

ooh, here's a good question: where exactly should code files for interpreted languages be installed in linux? can't put em in /bin bc not one file

Radvylf Programs

Depends. How is it installed? That changes where it should be placed

If it's done by the user, I think /opt would be the best option

Ginger

I need a standardized location to put interpreted programs for waterjet .jet files

which can be installed per-user or globally (unlike some package managers *cough*apt*cough*)

Radvylf Programs

I'd maybe just have executable wrappers around the interpreted programs

Then those can be placed in /usr/local/bin

Ginger

23:08

I considered that but I don't like it very much

Radvylf Programs

It'd be really simple, you just have it cwd to the interpreted script's location, then run the interpreter

Ginger

it's difficult to make that work well with every language, especially once imports start getting involved

Unrelated String

@RadvylfPrograms .map definitely wins

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Is it?

Ginger

wait what do you mean exactly

Radvylf Programs

23:09

@Ginger Something like:

Ginger

do you mean bundling all the files into one frankenstien format which is executable by itself?

Radvylf Programs

No

Ginger

ok good

Radvylf Programs

I mean making a really small executable that just changes the directory and runs python main.py or whatever

Unrelated String

just make sure there's also an easy way to take an n-way cartesian product if you don't plan to also have list comprehensions

Ginger

23:10

oh, good

Sʨɠɠan

@Ginger pyinstaller go brr

Ginger

that's basically what pip does already and what I was intending to do

Radvylf Programs

You could even use a shell script instead of compiling an executable

Ginger

but the issue is where exactly does the directory get changed to?

Radvylf Programs

Probably somewhere in /opt or /var

Ginger

23:11

/var?????

no, that's for variable stuff

Radvylf Programs

Yeah, it's what, e.g., Docker does

/var/lib/waterjet

Ginger

docker has an excuse bc it's a containerization system

I mean maybe /opt would work

Radvylf Programs

Why is it any different, an installed container is basically just a package

Ginger

I just don't like it

Unrelated String

...come to think of it what would be a good name for n-way cartesian product, for use with .map to emulate multiple list comprehensions

Ginger

23:12

rubs me the wrong way

but I guess I could make a directory in /opt for every user and for global packages

Radvylf Programs

Hot take: The FHS is absolute garbage

Ginger

Fricking Hot Servers? :p

Radvylf Programs

There's like 20 places any one thing could be and there's a 50% chance it's not there

Unrelated String

yep lmao

Radvylf Programs

And a 50% chance that what you want to do doesn't fall into any of the standardized places to put things

Unrelated String

23:14

shit's too ancient even if people did bother following it

^

Ginger

oh, fs hierarchy standard

yea I think slapping it in /opt works

gives it some of that classic Ginger-jank feel :b

Radvylf Programs

/sys

Do it, you won't

Ginger

I won't

Radvylf Programs

Scared?

If I ever become a billionaire, I'm making an OS and forcing all of the big hardware and software companies to start supporting it.

Ginger

yes, of turning on my raspberry pi and seeing some shit like

panic: init exited with code -19987: failed to inititalize device /sys/waterjet/alice/packages/HOT_BUSTY_ANIME_GIRLS_VIEWER.jet.d/aviewer/main.py: unknown device type "import requests"

Radvylf Programs

23:18

What sorta packages do you intend people to install with waterjet, Ginger? :p

Ginger

i dunno man

whatever the hell they want

Unrelated String

good and necessary ones

@UnrelatedString would from be going too far? :P

Radvylf Programs

I guess looking at Rust package names HOT_BUSTY_ANIME_GIRLS_VIEWER would prolly just be like, some sort of random string formatting utility.

7

Ginger

lmao

my policy with the waterjet repos is going to be "I disclaim all responsibility for this shit"

Radvylf Programs

They've all got names like heck, want, tokio, it just makes sense

Ginger

23:21

I actually intend to make a little disclaimer along the lines of "software from the internet can screw your computer up, please don't install things you don't trust" that shows up when running waterjet for the first time

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Ah yes, the classic mitigation tactic of prematurely DoSing yourself so noone else can :p

Ginger

the best way to protect yourself from house robberies is to not have any doors or windows :b

Radvylf Programs

I'm actually really excited for this critical vuln, infosec hasn't been spicy in months and OpenSSL's a big deal

Unrelated String

lol

Radvylf Programs

The fact that the only other OpenSSL vuln categorized as critical has been heartbleed, I think we're in for something truly cool

Sʨɠɠan

23:22

@Ginger wait is waterjet something ure making

Radvylf Programs

Yeah it's Ginger's package manager

Sʨɠɠan

for what

Radvylf Programs

Oh hang on, this only impacts OpenSSL 3.x.x, which I don't even use

@Ginger Do you?

Ginger

23:43

@RadvylfPrograms huh, I don't

@Sʨɠɠan everything, basically

Radvylf Programs

Yeah most OpenSSL copies are 1.1.x AFAIK

Ginger

the idea behind waterjet is that it can install any package by using special wrapper scripts that let it interface with other package managers

Radvylf Programs

Which unfortuantely means there won't be as much panic and discord as there was with Log4shell or Heartbleed :(

I have some cool ideas for Taiga, it'll be a bit unlike most language's package managers

Ginger

it's basically a way for me to make a package manager without any actual packages

@RadvylfPrograms what lang will it be in? please say python

Radvylf Programs

No, Rust

Ginger

23:44

fric

Radvylf Programs

Tundra and Taiga will be made in Rust

Ginger

does rust have a Python FFI???

Radvylf Programs

Probably not

Ginger

zark

Radvylf Programs

Taiga likely would not make any sense to use with waterjet, though

Ginger

23:46

well in that case can you make it so that waterjet's pakdef for tundra can do the dependency resolving and downloading by itself and then shell out to taiga for installation? that's what it does with pip

@RadvylfPrograms tell me more

Radvylf Programs

It'll be purely for Tundra libraries

Ginger

so no executables?

Radvylf Programs

There's no reason you'd want to install them unless it was as part of the Tundra/Taiga ecosystem

Ginger

so it's compiled?

Radvylf Programs

It'll mostly be interpreted

Ginger

23:47

hmmmmmmmm

so what's your plan for distributing actual programs then?

Radvylf Programs

That's not my job

Ginger

._.

wot

that doesn't make any sense

Radvylf Programs

You'd just send someone your Tundra code, and they'd run taiga if you don't provide the dependencies yourself

Which you probably wouldn't

Ginger

so you're telling me that to share your programs you have to send someone the raw source tree and then they install that???

Radvylf Programs

You just send them the code you've written

Probably in a .zip

Ginger

23:49

I don't know whether to like this idea or be absolutely revolted by it

Radvylf Programs

What is the alternative?

I wasn't aware it was common practice to use language-specific package managers for finished software

Ginger

it really shouldn't be

but if you use an OS-specific package manager then you usually also put the libs on that too

that's what C does

but from what you've described it seems you'd use two package managers: one for the source and one for the libs

which, as previously mentioned, makes no sense

Radvylf Programs

Ehhh I guess

But not really

Ginger

?????

Radvylf Programs

You'd just install the software the same way you would ordinarily. If it was from an OS packaga manager, you would probably include the dependencies rather than delegate that to Taiga

Or more likely, use some sort of compiling or minifying functionality which I hope to include in Tundra so that some sort of chaotic thing like JS has doesn't show up

I'm not fully decided on how I want Tundra programs to be run, or what their scope would be

Ginger

23:55

you can really only have it one way; either you install finished code entirely with the native manager or entirely with the OS one

Radvylf Programs

If it'll be intended for finished software, I will include compilation as an option. If it is intended for web stuff, I'll include JS or Wasm transpilation. If it's intended for small scripts used mainly by other programmers, it'll be purely interpreted

Ginger

I like the OS one more because it makes my job much easier

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger OS package managers let you run scripts along with downloading the code

No reason Taiga couldn't be one of those

Ginger

true, but doing that is so horrendously janky it transcends jankiness and enters the realm of evil kludges

even I wouldn't consider doing that

Radvylf Programs

How?

Ginger

23:57

well, the OS manager then has absolutely no clue what packages are being installed because it can't see what the other manager is doing, which kinda misses the point of a package manager

waterjet's whole goal is to be a universal package manager but if you do stuff like that than it can't do that

Radvylf Programs

I really doubt anyone would ever be putting Tundra code on a package manager

Ginger

and even worse the end user might not be able to tell and then have no clue how to find a broken package

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Why can't it?

Ginger

because it can't tell that you've installed tundra code!

it only sees one package

Radvylf Programs

It doesn't...need to?

The OS package would be a black box

Ginger

23:59

packages should not be black boxes!

Radvylf Programs

Uh...what should they be?

Why would waterjet need to see inside the package?

You don't need to care that it runs Taiga to grab some dependencies, because it acts the same as any old OS package

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