The Nineteenth Byte

Sʨɠɠan

00:17

@Ginger me...?

lyxal

Oct 21 at 12:16, by lyxal

Sʨɠɠan

@RadvylfPrograms Java's zyx().wait()

@RadvylfPrograms Java doesnt do that :P

@DLosc chunk and split

no wait split would be better for "split on"

Ginger

@lyxal ah yes, the ideal person to represent CGCC in a lawsuit

Sʨɠɠan

@RadvylfPrograms *

@RadvylfPrograms tell me more?

emanresu A

00:32

@RadvylfPrograms ...

lyxal

@Ginger your honour, my client wasn't commiting name infringement, they were simply golfing.

Ginger

@Sʨɠɠan you writing this down?

Sʨɠɠan

of course

emanresu A

Do y'all want to piss off eric wastl

Ginger

~~yes~~ no, we're simply doing a minor quantity of trolling

Sandbox Posts

01:00

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

code-golf decision-problem Number program police This question is related to Counting and so on Content With some clever engineering, we now have program that can count like us. But this is not enough. We are making a math society and society isn't as simple as counting. There is always some blat...

Niko

o there is it

emanresu A

Feeds only four minutes late for once

Niko

the feed is getting smarter and more reactive

i have another idea to ask for minimal char removal to make a shape into number, but i am concerning that it will be marked dupe

and also third idea that make you identify a number shape and print its value

Radvylf Programs

@Sʨɠɠan I'm kidding

Sʨɠɠan

i hope ure not

Ginger

01:12

that just sounds like compiling but with extra steps

Radvylf Programs

Well no compilation does the opposite

First Class Redaction (FCR) hides details from the programmer, which are only exposed in the compiled code.

You can treat redactions as values, and interact with them, but cannot introspect inside of them.

Ginger

I don't know whether to love or hate this idea

thejonymyster

01:37

@RadvylfPrograms that seems like a weird operator to use for it

Radvylf Programs

lol

thejonymyster

the :| unary operator: returns its argument but with your stark disapproval

DialFrost

@JoKing i dont get it lol

Unrelated String

02:23

honestly that's like
not a bad idea

have a way to just throw a compiler warning at will if there's some code you wrote that works but you still want to get rid of

Niko

@DialFrost i think he means [a-b-c+][a-c+][b-c+]

but with first loop condition is a and b

Jo King

@Niko pretty much exactly that

DialFrost

@Niko huh???

Niko

[a-b-c+(a and b)][a-c+(a)][b-c+(b)]

bracket are condition

Jo King

@DialFrost which part don't you get? how you would do the loop condition is the only part i left as an exercise to the reader

DialFrost

02:37

l=[5,6,0]
while l[0]!=0 and l[1]!=0:
l[0]-=1
l[1]-=1
l[2]+=1
l[2]+=l[1]

ahh wheres the indents

Unrelated String

you have to indent the whole thing to get multiline code formatting

DialFrost

@UnrelatedString ?

Unrelated String

l=[5,6,0]
while l[0]!=0 and l[1]!=0:
    l[0]-=1
    l[1]-=1
    l[2]+=1
    l[2]+=l[1]

DialFrost

ah

Unrelated String

you should have a fixed font button pop up that adds four spaces to all of it

DialFrost

02:40

l=[5,6,0]
while l[0]!=0 and l[1]!=0:
    l[0]-=1
    l[1]-=1
    l[2]+=1
l[2]+=l[1]

^

@UnrelatedString ah didnt see that b4 tysm

@DialFrost is this correct @JoKing?

Jo King

l[2]+=l[1]+l[0]

Jo King

03:01

it could also be shorter to do an alternative like while(l[0] or l[1]){if (l[0]) l[0]--; if(l[1]) l[1]--; l[2]++}

Jo King

03:20

@DialFrost: something like ,>,>>>+[+<<<<[->]>>]>[<]>--[-<<<+>>>]<<<[-<+>]<.

Niko

i somehow made a min instead of max

lol

nvm

it’s getting out of control

Jo King

min is easy, you just don't do the adding part at the end

@DialFrost 39 bytes

thejonymyster

@UnrelatedString oh interesting, kind of like console logging but like, differernt

Niko

03:35

ok my brain can no longer proceed

DialFrost

03:49

@JoKing why is the input a8?

DialFrost

04:26

oh nvm

PyGamer0

05:21

@mods can someone thaw the rust room

Aiden Chow

yoooo i finally got a bronze tag badge on smth other than code golf

lets gooooo

PyGamer0

@PyGamer0 @JoKing

@AidenChow nice, which site?

Jo King

@PyGamer0 done

PyGamer0

@JoKing thanks

Aiden Chow

@PyGamer0 uhhhh i didnt mean on a different site, i meant a tag other than code-golf

PyGamer0

05:22

oh lol

which tag?

Aiden Chow

@PyGamer0 math

PyGamer0

nice

Aiden Chow

im about to get bronze on number too, only 5 score away

graffe

05:35

CMC given one 64 bit float x between 0 and 1, output two 32 bit floats by taking alternating bits from x

PyGamer0

i have been thinking about learning julia ~~and ditching python~~

the problem: wsl2 hates arch and i can't install anything

@graffe this maybe? (ungolfed)

Unrelated String

05:50

julia lowkey sucks

PyGamer0

@UnrelatedString why?

Unrelated String

if you feel like replacing python for something else for data-y stuff then either do r or something that builds on python :P

PyGamer0

but why :P

Unrelated String

lots of weird choices throughout
i haven't done much julia but there's some good literature out there on problems throughout the language itself and the ecosystem

like it's not like you can'

t say the same about python as a language but the ecosystem is at least pretty mature

DialFrost

06:10

Strange my vyxal answer got downvoted

PyGamer0

@UnrelatedString i am struggling to prepend a zero to an array in julia lmao

Unrelated String

phenomenal

lyxal

@DialFrost 05ab1e did too

PyGamer0

@UnrelatedString this is not what i want :(

i want [0 1 2 3]

anyone knows julia here?

@UnrelatedString WOW i got it

Unrelated String

ooh what was it

PyGamer0

06:13

b = cat(0, a, dims=2)

Unrelated String

ah makes sense

PyGamer0

why

Unrelated String

something something broadcasting

PyGamer0

nice explaination :P

Unrelated String

maybe arrays are column major?

or maybe the dims argument is the dimensions to not change

PyGamer0

06:19

@UnrelatedString i don't know

but i made this: ato.pxeger.com/…

Unrelated String

nice

PyGamer0

now i can add julia to the list of languages i know :P

graffe

@PyGamer0 Julia is awesome

@PyGamer0 very nice!

PyGamer0

i can't install julia on arch linux wsl2 :(

some gpg signatures aren't found

when using pacman

@graffe julia looks like its pratically designed for mathematics or something

> A numeric literal placed directly before an identifier or parentheses, e.g. 2x or 2(x+y), is treated as a multiplication

whoa!

graffe

06:37

@PyGamer0 yes. It’s for python coders who want their code to be fast as well

As a python coder, it’s very annoying to switch to C all the time

Julia lets you avoid that

PyGamer0

i cannot tell you how much i wanted this in python

@PyGamer0 made it shorter! ato.pxeger.com/…

> Julia arrays are column-major (Fortran-ordered) whereas NumPy arrays are row-major (C-ordered) by default.

Unrelated String

06:57

ah

wacky

PyGamer0

@UnrelatedString what does that mean?

row major vs column major?

Unrelated String

i'm just not used to column major :P

DialFrost

Question: what's yall favourite subject

PyGamer0

@UnrelatedString but what is the difference?

Unrelated String

it means the "bottom-most" dimension is considered to be columns

Aiden Chow

07:05

@DialFrost subject as in school subject?

DialFrost

@DialFrost e.g. school sujects

@AidenChow ^

Awww darn no one replying

Neil

I'd call it Advent of PPCG but I doubt anyone else would agree to that

DialFrost

07:22

@AidenChow so yes

Aiden Chow

07:34

@Neil why not ppcg? whats wrong with that

Aiden Chow

07:56

@DialFrost pretty stereotypical choices but i would say either math or computer science lolol

physics is fine but only when u get how to solve the question, u feel hella smart when u r able to solve some complicated problem but otherwise its just annoying af

PyGamer0

08:23

@DialFrost physics and mathematics

cs is boring in school

DialFrost

Yay u 2 chose math :3

Physics? Nah

Neil

09:32

@AidenChow because that's the "old" site name

PyGamer0

12:22

@graffe so far ... i like julia

graffe

12:46

@PyGamer0 this is good!

It's good for your health :)

The only problem is the ridiculously large number of different plotting libraries

lyxal

uh no, I don't think that's how Dennis made Jelly

Ginger

Announcement: All of my bots and other software running on my server will be offline for the next few weeks as a proactive mitigation attempt for a critical bug in OpenSSL, to be fixed in the next version.

2

If you have a linux machine you should be very proactive about installing updates for a while

The patch will be released on Nov 1st

PyGamer0

13:04

@graffe but i have no clue what to to use it for..

@Ginger is that why termux isn't installing ssl ?

Ginger

¯\_(ಠ_ಠ)_/¯

what a cliffhanger :p

graffe

13:26

@PyGamer0 anything you would have used python for

@PyGamer0 what language do you normally code in?

PyGamer0

@graffe python

graffe

@PyGamer0 then it's a drop in replacements

No need to touch python ever again

PyGamer0

@graffe so uh like remaking my golflang in ... julia?

graffe

@PyGamer0 why not :)

Do you do anything in python except write golflangs?

PyGamer0

i dont want to rewrite everything again :p

@graffe i have written a few things, all of them are on github

graffe

13:29

You can also replace rust with julia

As Julia can be really fast

PyGamer0

no i think i will learn rust

graffe

But you do have to say multiple dispatch every few sentences

PyGamer0

wdym

graffe

Julia fans talk about it a lot

PyGamer0

what do you mean

actually what does it mean

graffe

13:33

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch

mousetail

You can do dynamic dispatch is rust too, but it's generally not recomended

With &dyn traits

graffe

It's seen as a particular strong point for Julia

@mousetail reddit.com/r/rust/comments/dl7ix1/… seems to suggest something different

I know very little about rust though

It does mention traits

I see github.com/fcard/multimethods.rs too

mousetail

LIterally every modern language has dynamic dispatch

Or polymorphism it's the same thing

graffe

Yes. I guess that is different to what they mean by multiple dispatch

mousetail

I may be totally misunderstanding what it is

graffe

13:48

discourse.julialang.org/t/…

mousetail

Seems to be a Inform 7-style rulebook system

PyGamer0

i still don't understand multiple dispatch

mousetail

Seems very niche use though

as well as increasing coupling in the code thus decreasing readability

PyGamer0

> In more conventional, i.e., single-dispatch object-oriented programming languages, when invoking a method (sending a message in Smalltalk, calling a member function in C++), one of its arguments is treated specially and used to determine which of the (potentially many) classes of methods of that name is to be applied. In many languages, the special argument is indicated syntactically; for example, a number of programming languages put the special argument before a dot in making a method call: special.method(other, arguments, here), so that lion.sound() would produce a roar, whereas sparro…

this just sounds like function overloading

mousetail

Many languages with function overloading require selecting a specific overload at compile time, I guess the difference is this doesn't

graffe

13:55

I feel this discussion should be happening on the Julia discourse pages!

mousetail

I always thought that Julia was a scientific language like R

PyGamer0

it looks like a scientific language to me

mousetail

Yea so not really useful in the areas where rust would be useful

graffe

It's really an attempt to solve the "two languages" problem for python users and is used a lot by scientists

@mousetail what areas are you thinking of?

mousetail

Makes sense, but still not really good for stuff like writing golfing languages in

graffe

13:57

@PyGamer0 I use it for data science

PyGamer0

ok

graffe

@mousetail that may be true :) But no worse than python I would guess

mousetail

Python is general purpose

PyGamer0

^

graffe

Is Julia any less general purpose?

mousetail

13:59

Python is a excellent choice for writing golfing languages, especially if performance isn't as important

graffe

I feel we should make an example that is more difficult in Julia

mousetail

that might be difficult since I don't know Julia

PyGamer0

@graffe ok, write an os in julia

mousetail

I just love dissing things I know nothing about

graffe

@PyGamer0 that's not a golfing language :)

mousetail

14:00

Does Jula have pattern matching?

PyGamer0

@graffe idk the julia website says julia is general purpose

graffe

You would not write an os in python either

PyGamer0

@graffe but you can in rust :P

graffe

@mousetail you mean regular expressions?

@PyGamer0 yes that is true

mousetail

No pattern matching, like a match statement

Super useful for writing languages

graffe

14:00

As in cases?

mousetail

Yea but much more complex

PyGamer0

doesnt python 3.10 have pattern matching?

mousetail

Python has it too

graffe

kmsquire.github.io/Match.jl/latest

mousetail

But more recently and not as well integrated into the language

graffe

14:01

Julia does it nicely

PyGamer0

@mousetail i haven't found a use case for it yet

graffe

@mousetail ^^^

1 point to Julia

Next please :)

mousetail

No? that's a external package

how does that compete with a language feature

graffe

@mousetail well I am not sure I know what is external

PyGamer0

@graffe its a library not provided by default in julia?

like if i install julia i cant use match immediately without installing the package

graffe

14:03

@PyGamer0 I don't know if it is. I mean you just do "add package" which works by default

mousetail

Like the syntax looks good but the main weakness is that it won't work with other packages or builtins

graffe

@PyGamer0 Julia works by allowing you to add packages

@mousetail are you sure?

mousetail

Of course? That's how libraries work

A language feature is always better than a package

graffe

?

I mean which built-in does it not work

mousetail

All of them? Only the ones the package explicitly added will work

graffe

14:05

@mousetail I am not sure that is right. It's hard to update language features

mousetail

Yes, that's the point

if it was easy to update language features most libraries wouldn't support them in time, that's why python match statement, despite being official, still has very limited library support

graffe

I have yet to come by across a problem with using Julia packages

DialFrost

erm guys how do I get rid of end in ruby

mousetail

You really don't understand what I'm saying

DialFrost

I read it in the code golf ruby golfing tips but my code doesnt works till

graffe

14:07

It just seems to be how most things are done

mousetail

Of course you don't get any problems using just one package

The more packages you add the more things don't work nicely together

especially if they change core language features

graffe

Understood. I just haven't come across that problem in Julia

mousetail

Probably because you are just doing data science and not actual software engineering

PyGamer0

i dont really know what data science is, all i know is people use numpy, scipy, pandas for it :P

can someone tell me what data science is about?

DialFrost

@DialFrost welp guys

graffe

14:18

It's about processing data, drawing pictures and conclusions :)

PyGamer0

@graffe what do you exactly conclude?

graffe

14:31

@PyGamer0 that smoking causes cancer or whatever your data is about

Ginger

so apparently I on average send 1.1k messages per week

that's a lotta messages

Ginger

14:52

idea: a bot that checks new sandbox posts for similarity to existing ones

mousetail

That seems difficult, SO still is terrible at detecting duplicate questions

If you figure it out sell your tech to SO

Ginger

:p

fair enough

Ginger

15:05

different idea: a bot that uses magic AI goodness to detect "do x without y" posts

mousetail

In sandbox?

Ginger

yes

problem: insufficient data for reasonable training (because I'm not a mod and therefore cannot find any deleted do x without y questions)

another problem: this may be too broad of an issue to solve with AI

mousetail

Seems like a problem easily solvable with regex

Ginger

ehhhhhh

mousetail

(without|except|but) [tag:restricted-source]

Ginger

15:08

but that mayn't get all of them

and also I love excuses to use AI

mousetail

Go for it

But I'll bet you 5 rep I can build a regex that beats it

Sʨɠɠan

15:23

how are you betting 5 rep

Ginger

good question :p

@mousetail how about 10, that's one upvote

mousetail

Sure

Ginger

cool! I'll start working on it later

mousetail

We'll need some official way to determine, when our algorithms disagree, which is correct though. A lot may be in the middle even to humans

Because it's rather subjective

Ginger

I'm going to use a feedback system like smokey does

you can tell the bot if it's a true or false positive and it'll retrain itself accordingly

Sʨɠɠan

15:27

@DialFrost math

mousetail

Cool, sounds like I'm for for a challenge

Sʨɠɠan

@mousetail ill do the judging, if ya want

mousetail

I vote for Sgkjkfdjfkasjdan as judge

Sʨɠɠan

15:55

@Sʨɠɠan how is it not? dynamic typing is uuuuuughhhh

Radvylf Programs

17:09

Dynamic typing is good, just for different reasons

mousetail

I feel most issues people have with static typing can be better fixed by a more flexible dynamic type system rather than dynamic typing

Sʨɠɠan

how?

also thats a self-contradiction: "can be better fixed by a more flexible dynamic type system rather than dynamic typing"

mousetail

Oops I meant a more flexible static type system

Sʨɠɠan

agree

kinda like a hybrid of rust and ocaml?

one thing i love abt ocaml is that you almost never have to specify types

thats also one of the reasons I think kotlin > java

py3_and_c_programmer

Heya people

Why does writing an invalid arg to help in Python 3.11 result in a termination to the help prompt

As against Python <=3.10

mousetail

17:21

Why tf was this edit approved despite 2 deny votes? codegolf.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/66580

Sʨɠɠan

quick revert it

mousetail

Don't want to get my hands dirty though

py3_and_c_programmer

@mousetail shit it was?

Sʨɠɠan

@py3_and_c_programmer we never change scoring criteria through edits

py3_and_c_programmer

God no way I wanted to delete it myself because i realised it invalidated 2 answers

mousetail

17:25

You really shouldn't do edits that change the intent of the question

you did another one recently too

py3_and_c_programmer

Where

mousetail

codegolf.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/66566

py3_and_c_programmer

Idts it changed the intent

Twas pretty much the same

mousetail

You changed the rules of a post

py3_and_c_programmer

One ambiguous

so

mousetail

17:27

I agree the rule was a bad idea but that doesn't give you the right to remove it

py3_and_c_programmer

it doesnt?

Sʨɠɠan

nope

never use edits to change the authors intent

mousetail

14

Q: When it is and is not acceptable to edit someone else's post

TL;DR: In what circumstances is it ok (by CGCC and politeness standards) to edit directly a post (be it challenge, answer, sandbox question, etc), assuming the edit is done in good faith? I know people can rollback edits and further edit a post, but in the meantime that goes from the unwanted edi...

This rule specifically: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/18807/91213

py3_and_c_programmer

But honestly its not my fault in codegolf.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/66566 alephalpha and lyxal decided to accept, while in the second one OP accepted. That's community issues.

But I guess I started it

mousetail

I called out the other approvers in chat too

py3_and_c_programmer

17:33

So what do we do?

@mousetail where

mousetail

I don't think anything needs to be done but please avoid making such edits in the future

py3_and_c_programmer

silence

Well, thing is... it now atleast has a concrete winning criterion right?

Let's reopen it

Or at least close with a different reason

mousetail

Editing placed it on the reopen queue

3K+ peeps will decide what to do

py3_and_c_programmer

~~Contribute to it then~~ Wait a minute 3000 people?

mousetail

Nope, too contraversial

@py3_and_c_programmer Yea, 2K is edits, 3K is close/open votes

Sʨɠɠan

17:38

@py3_and_c_programmer 3K as in people with 3K+ rep

py3_and_c_programmer

Oh as in reps

3000 people seems too much

mousetail

Lol yea imagine if it required 3K votes to re-open a post

py3_and_c_programmer

Which user has highest rep here?

and how much rep they have

Sʨɠɠan

@py3_and_c_programmer Dennis

he has 207,358 and counting

stackexchange.com/leagues/200/alltime/codegolf

py3_and_c_programmer

Lets post pseudocode:

see each question
if each question is bad
    throw a close vote

if a question has (poster rep) votes
    close it

mousetail

17:42

No, a close vote does not indicate if a question is good or bad

py3_and_c_programmer

if a question has (207358 - poster rep) reopen votes
    reopen it

by users
see a question
if it deserves a close vote
    throw a close vote

It should be like this ↑

Sʨɠɠan

> a close vote is not a super downvote

py3_and_c_programmer

Im just joking

is it cuz im a nerd?

Lol why does everyone take everything i say so seriously

Sʨɠɠan

Sep 19 at 22:24, by caird coinheringaahing

Closing is supposed to prevent answers to a post, whether that's because it's too unclear to properly answer, or because it doesn't belong here. You should only VTC if you think people shouldn't be able to answer the challenge

@py3_and_c_programmer its hard to correctly get your point across text

py3_and_c_programmer

@Sʨɠɠan ok thats controversial

Sʨɠɠan

17:51

@py3_and_c_programmer were all nerds here :P

@py3_and_c_programmer read the context

py3_and_c_programmer

@Sʨɠɠan ~~exactly why we should talk through zoom meetings instead of se chat~~

@Sʨɠɠan totally disagree

Sʨɠɠan

why?

py3_and_c_programmer

why not?

Sʨɠɠan

i mean what makes you think so?

py3_and_c_programmer

i mean what makes you not think so?

Sʨɠɠan

17:57

code golfer == nerd

were taking part in such a pointless pastime

py3_and_c_programmer

@Sʨɠɠan I'm here only cuz ~~i'm isolated from others irl~~

not covid-19 isolation

Adám

@Sʨɠɠan My father golfed some code when he worked at IBM, not for fun, but because it was the only way the code would fit in working memory.

Sʨɠɠan

that was back when computers had a few K/Mbs of memory

also i think back then programmer == nerd too :P

mousetail

Aren't programmers more nerds than geeks?

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