The Nineteenth Byte

user

01:16

@lyxal Okay, but even if you don't want to compete, why stop emanresu from competing?

lyxal

/shrug

No reason really

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Isn't this why GRSM exists?

Much better to have a descriptive acronym than just listing every single minority and making it seem as if the ones in the + are less important

Steffan

I'll probably complete but I know nothing about 2d langs :/

user

You use 2D langs all the time

caird coinheringaahing

@user Yeah, I was (mostly) joking :P

user

01:20

Python code has rows and columns :P

Steffan

lol

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing You can be fractional Jo King? :o

(I know you were being sarcastic, just wanted to mention it)

caird coinheringaahing

Broke: No, I'm caird

Woke: Yes, I am JoKing, what are you going to do about it?

yesterday, by caird coinheringaahing

I have never once been sarcastic

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing I...I...You've left me speechless

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh okay mb

caird coinheringaahing

@user You're not speechless, you're user

user

01:22

I didn't say I was speechless

I said you've left me Speechless. Now I have to take it to the animal shelter

Radvylf Programs

@user Oh I was just wondering recently if there was an acronym other than MOGAI with a similar purpose that is used by people other than preteens

caird coinheringaahing

GRSM is the more commonly used "HR" initialism

I mostly see it used in professional settings, rather than in actual queer circles

forest

Why do we need so many initialisms...?

user

What's the one used in actual queer circles?

forest

I remember when it was still GLB.

@user Anything from LGBT to LGBTQUAIIPP2ES+

user

01:28

@forest https://xkcd.com/927/

forest

Or whatever it is.

I personally just use LGBT.

Radvylf Programs

I like that there's acronyms, they feel descriptive and emotionless, which is what I want since I don't want to convey the wrong emotions

user

@forest You're kidding, right?

forest

@user No. That's an actual thing.

Fun fact: The 2 stands for Two Spirit.

user

No way anyone uses that second one, although I have seen people get up to like 9 letters

Radvylf Programs

01:29

LGBTQIA+ is the most I've seen IIRC

user

Yeah but that's still a bandaid fix

forest

C4ISTAREW is the military version :^)

user

Long acronyms are really really annoying

forest

(Also technically they're initialisms, not acronyms. /grammar nazi)

Radvylf Programs

@forest Sounds more like a protocol for dealing with explosives. C4? I STARE .w.

user

01:31

Ahhhh okay initiialsams then

Radvylf Programs

Ooh .w. is a cool "staring" emoticon

forest

@RadvylfPrograms C4ISTAREW = Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Intelligence, Surveillance, Target acquisition, Reconnaissance, Electronic Warfare. It's one of those initialisms used by evil people.

user

Ugh

Radvylf Programs

Ohhh I thought you meant the military's equivalent to LGBTQIA+ lol

forest

@RadvylfPrograms That was the joke. :p

user

01:32

Having a phrase of 3-4 descriptive words would be much better

forest

Or just use "LGBT", since everyone knows what that means.

user

@RadvylfPrograms It'd be hilarious (and weird) if the military had its own acronym for LGBTQ+ lol

forest

Or LGBT+ even. Or let's just make sure with [A-Za-z0-9]+, as regex, that it includes everyone in all possible scenarios.

Radvylf Programs

@user I mean it's exactly the sort of thing they'd do. They refer to WMDs as CBRN instead of N(R)BC, for example.

WMD = Weapon of Mass Destruction
CBRN = Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear
N(R)BC = Nuclear, Radiological (sometimes), Biological, Chemical

TBF I think the military's ordering makes more sense, but still

user

BCNR is clearly the right way to do it. Alphabetical order is what matters

forest

01:35

Actually, it's best to list them ordinally in their integer representation, using EBCDIC.

Which... I guess would also be BCNR...

user

:)

Radvylf Programs

It's even an acronym instead of an initialism

BaCoNeR

One who bacons

lyxal

@RadvylfPrograms a guy opens his door and gets pork and you think that of me? No. I am the one who bacons

forest

Do it in UTF32. :^)

(Does anyone actually use UTF32 unironically?)

user

I used it for a parser once

Radvylf Programs

01:38

@forest I mean, storing characters as 32-bit ints is something you do fairly often, yeah

And storing lists of chars in that representation is rarely ironic

forest

@RadvylfPrograms Yeah but usually people use UTF8 which is variable-length. Anything it (or UTF16) can do, UTF8 can do.

user

Or tried, at least. Indexing into a string is much easier

forest

@user That's the only benefit, really.

user

A big one if you're too dumb to get a Unicode library working

Radvylf Programs

I mean, I've never intentionally sat down and written something using UTF-32, but in Rust for example, a &[char] or something might be useful

And if you count an iterator of 32-bit ints as UTF-32, every time you work with individual characters of a string in Rust (with .chars()), you're using UTF-32

user

01:59

Yeah if you're iterating over the characters of a string (in any language), it's cheaper to just use 32-bit ints than to have some sort of special variable-length character type

A variable-length character type would probably need to be a proper object on the heap or something

Bubbler

and there is little point to be !Sized when the max size is known to be 4 bytes :P

caird coinheringaahing

@user I tend to use/hear LGBTQ, mainly cause it rolls off the tongue best

Or queer

hyper-neutrino

02:19

@cairdcoinheringaahing interesting, I don't think I've ever seen that before actually

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino As I said, I've found its mainly used in professional spaces, so unless GSRM has come up as part of your work, I'm not surprised

hyper-neutrino

hm, now that I think about it, I can't actually remember what my previous workplace used for pride month (probably just some variant of the LGBT+ etc initialism since although it was a work email it wasn't like my work involved that, just an average corporate pride month email)

caird coinheringaahing

02:32

@hyper-neutrino Obviously, "that month where we have to be nice to them gays", duh :P

forest

Last place I worked didn't observe pride month.

They weren't against it I don't think. They just didn't really care.

user

02:48

@cairdcoinheringaahing Interesting, I thought people weren't happy with that

I guess I'll go with that in the future then

caird coinheringaahing

@user I've never heard any opposition?

Or, at least, I have, but from people I'd happily describe as idiots

user

I've seen people online and heard some kids at my old high school talking about how it doesn't include everyone

And I personally find it weird to have a list but that's not important

caird coinheringaahing

My response to that is that the Q generally stands for "queer", which is widely understood to be an umbrella term for the entire community

user

Ah

@cairdcoinheringaahing Would you ever sadly describe someone as an idiot? :P

caird coinheringaahing

Former friends of mine

I'm sad to say that some of them are idiots

One opposition I heard recently about "LGBT": my mum (who is super supportive/inclusive) went on a yoga retreat, and a lesbian women who was there (clearly a TERF from the beliefs my mum mentioned she had) said that 1) it included pedophiles, and 2) the "L" shouldn't be first. I proceeded to go off on my mum explaining why a) this women was talking horseshit, and b) why she was talking complete bullshit

user

02:54

Wait what

emanresu A

horse = bull

user

Clearly the woman was a horse-bull-human hybrid. A minocentaur :P

Radvylf Programs

03:07

Sure, will move

forest

→ 23 messages moved to Off-Topic TNB

Beat you to it. :P

Radvylf Programs

Oh, I was gonna move the LGBTQ vs. GRSM vs. ... part too but I guess we only need that moved

user

Yeah you could move that too

lyxal

I was going to too :p

forest

That's the only part that I think might be potentially controversial.

lyxal

03:12

it shouldn't be too bad - it's just moving discussion about semantics regarding acronyms/initialisms to a room that's more suited to having discussion about semantics

Unrelated String

whereas this is the morphosyntax room

Radvylf Programs

Yeah if we were gonna split up the conversation the part that got moved first might've been better in TNH

I was gonna suggest that but I got move-ninja'd by forest :p

lyxal

even then, it wasn't political or anything

Unrelated String

oh come on it was a good joke

lyxal

it was purely just about definitions and the different "words" people use

user

03:15

@UnrelatedString Too big brain a joke for the likes of us, I'm afraid. If you explain it I can respond with :P though :P

Wheat Wizard

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm not a fan of the LGBT variations because I feel that there are issues with listing things. It's sort of necessarily exclusive, (and I'm sorry but "+" doesn't fix this) and it leads to fighting over the correct acronym etc. I like "queer" because it's just a word, and so it carries that core meaning, of "people who are put at odds with the expectations of traditional gender roles" without having to get into listing specifics.

Unrelated String

linguistics :P

emanresu A

@WheatWizard The + generally means more

Unrelated String

it doesn't fix that because it still implies the rest is secondary

Radvylf Programs

Yeah, but it creates a sort of...class distinction?

caird coinheringaahing

03:16

@WheatWizard Yeah, this is one of the main reasons I use "queer"

Unrelated String

listing things always carries an implication of some degree of exhaustiveness

or representativity

caird coinheringaahing

I tend to use queer with queer people, and LGBTQ with cishet people

Wheat Wizard

There are also intersex people who do not consider themselves queer and intersex people who consider their intersexness as queer, so you end up with a problem of whether intersex should be one of the items on the list.

The world is really complicated and the fuzziness of words is really good at navigating complexities.

caird coinheringaahing

Tbh, while I'm 100% respectful of a specific person's identity, as a general rule, I'll stick to what mostly works, and adapt if necessary

forest

Hence [A-Za-z0-9]+ as the solution.

caird coinheringaahing

03:20

Like, I'll default to calling people "they", because most people don't have a problem with that. If a person wants to be referred to be specific pronouns, then specific pronouns it is

Unrelated String

this reminds me
i haven't interacted with her in a while but my mom is weirdly passionate about referring to others with neopronouns by default instead of singular "they"

caird coinheringaahing

Like, "xe" instead of "they"?

Unrelated String

yeah

caird coinheringaahing

That's very weird :P

Unrelated String

she just absolutely hates singular "they"

Radvylf Programs

03:25

That's kind of cool, better than the typical way I'd expect people over like, 40 to react to neopronouns

Wheat Wizard

My mother is awful at using "they/them" pronouns.

Radvylf Programs

Well anyway, good night TNB o/

Wheat Wizard

I just repeat back the correct pronoun every time she makes a mistake.

caird coinheringaahing

I mainly use he/they pronouns IRL, which means I use he/him pronouns IRL ಠ_ಠ

Unrelated String

which i find utterly bizarre because i usually use "they" even for people i do know preferred pronouns for if they're not particularly salient
like i just treat it as the absolute unspecified baseline
no indication of gender or number

Wheat Wizard

03:26

I use any pronouns, which means I use he/him pronouns online.

Unrelated String

i use he/him but don't specify unless asked :P
not an issue in person but sometimes online people end up referring to me by verbatim username way too much and i feel mildly guilty for wasting their keystrokes but not guilty enough to actually post pronouns somewhere

Wheat Wizard

@UnrelatedString Yeah, I've noticed I use they/them to express a social distance from me and the person. Like if the person I'm speaking with doesn't really know this person's name I will naturally refer to them with "they/them". "Oh I have a friend who likes to do that with their jackets."

Unrelated String

yeah exactly

it's like
indefinite

user

04:16

@UnrelatedString totally understandable

Ambiguity sucks

Imo English should get rid of third person pronouns

Unrelated String

ambiguity is based and natural language-pilled

user

Tired: Natural languages

Wired: Artificial languages

@UnrelatedString ngl i am not very good about using they

I often assume pronouns based on last names or profession or whatever and it’s kinda awkward when you’re wrong

Not having he and she would be very nice

Just they or xe or it or whatever all the time for everyone

Major qol improvement that i hope gets into English 2

Sandbox Posts

05:17

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Numbers vs. Strings: Language fitness challenge code-challenge inspired by thejonymaster's idea Rules This challenge is about finding languages that are very suitable for one task but quite the opposite in the other. The two tasks share a theme, but Task 1 is designed to be number-oriented while ...

Jo King

05:40

my only gripe with they/them is that they're always treated as plural, even in a singular context

even with that, i usually just use they/them for almost basically everyone unless i've met them irl

Unrelated String

yep

Bubbler

Also I was wondering why specify exactly two words, when you can specify just one (or maybe all)

Unrelated String

i think the convention originated with neopronouns; nominative and oblique are enough to infer possessive by analogy with existing pronouns on the assumption it patterns after one of them

i do see people list all three or just one sometimes

Jo King

06:01

there's also the nounself people which can usually be extrapolated from just the noun

mousetail

06:24

@forest Actually my CelLTail parser uses something similar to UTF-32 internally

graffe

08:58

hello!

mousetail

@graffe ñéøøó

graffe

that is a fine greeting!

@JoKing apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/….

Jo King

> Use a plural verb form with the singular pronoun “they” (i.e., write “they are” not “they is”)

graffe

yep

Jo King

that specifically is my gripe

graffe

09:01

I always wonder when women write "my pronouns are she/her" whether they are boasting :)

@JoKing understood

mousetail

@graffe How would that be boasting?

graffe

@mousetail it's a joke but....my description is fine and feminine is an alternative :)

I quite like "my pronouns are my/mine"

mousetail

My pronouns are He/Her/Their for optimal confusion

graffe

yes!

mousetail

It's a bit strange that people give 2 pronouns when there are actually 3 forms

graffe

09:04

that might be my fault

mousetail

he/him/his she/her/her they/them/their etc

graffe

I guess she/her/her is calling for compression

what are good coding based pronoun triples?

Adám

CMQ: Which emoji best conveys "median", i.e. "the middle element [when sorted]"?

graffe

he/him/his she/her/her they/them/their ... what are these golfed?

Jo King

@graffe true/false/null

Adám

09:06

@graffe [:pronoun:]

graffe

I like those both!

I might go for [:pronoun:] in my signature

Adám

How about ${pronoun}

graffe

@Adám )°( but upside down?

@Adám also good

Adám

@graffe What?

graffe

@Adám an emoji for median

Adám

09:09

That's not an emoji.

graffe

hmm.. is :) an emoji?

or :-D

Adám

No, that's an emoticon.

graffe

ah... an emoji is one unicode character?

what is an emoji??? :)

Adám

One Unicode glyph, yes. (It may consist of multiple code points in sequence.)

Emoticon

An emoticon (, ə-MOH-tə-kon, rarely , ih-MOTT-ih-kon), short for "emotion icon", also known simply as an emote, is a pictorial representation of a facial expression using characters—usually punctuation marks, numbers, and letters—to express a person's feelings, mood or reaction, or as a time-saving method. The first ASCII emoticons are generally credited to computer scientist Scott Fahlman, who proposed what came to be known as "smileys" – :-) and :-( – in a message on the bulletin board system (BBS) of Carnegie Mellon University in 1982. In Western countries, emoticons are usually written at a...

Emoji

An emoji ( i-MOH-jee; plural emoji or emojis) is a pictogram, logogram, ideogram or smiley embedded in text and used in electronic messages and web pages. The primary function of emoji is to fill in emotional cues otherwise missing from typed conversation. Some examples of emoji are 😂, 😃, 🧘🏻‍♂️, 🌍, 🌦️, 🍞, 🚗, 📞, 🎉, ❤️, 🍆, 🏁, among many others. Emoji exist in various genres, including facial expressions, common objects, places and types of weather, and animals. They are much like emoticons, but emoji are pictures rather than typographic approximations; the term "emoji" in the stri...

graffe

䐡

apparently :)

" the navel; the umbilicus, the underside of a crab "

I really want to work for the Unicode Emoji Subcommittee now

Bubbler

09:16

🀄 (U+1F004) maybe

Adám

Interesting Red Dragon. I was thinking more like 🎯 or… 🖕.

graffe

not the latter I think

Adám

Middle element in the ordered set of fingers, though.

graffe

that is true

Hyrba is a Median city

Jo King

is there an inverted hand symbol with just the middle finger down?

graffe

09:25

@JoKing I think that's what the Shining Path used to do to you

Adám

No, but I could turn it upside down.

🖖?

graffe

in peruvian elections you would get your finger dyed when you voted. The Shining Path didn't want people to vote so would cut off that finger

Adám

🙏?

graffe

in case anyone was interested :)

mousetail

10:36

What happened to the C answer here? https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/251864/re-name-all-identifiers-to-a-single-letter

Seemed valid as far as I could tell, why was it deleted?

emanresu A

Had issues

Adám

We all have.

lyxal

10:49

codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/251864/…

mousetail

I can't see deleted comments

lyxal

> this seems to be failing: (((((do) re) mi) fa) so) = (((((a) b) c) d) e) should be all a identifiers, didnt check any others –
thejonymyster
14 hours ago

@mousetail I know

I thought it might one box but I was going to paste the quote anyway

mousetail

@lyxal That's unfortunate, hope OP comes back to fix it

Sandbox Posts

11:10

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Calculate Pi using the Nilakantha series code-golfpi Your task: given a number i, calculate pi using the Nilakantha series unto i terms. The Nilakantha series is as follows: $$\text 3 + \frac{4}{2*3*4} - \frac{4}{4*5*6}+\frac{4}{6*7*8} - ...$$ 3 is the first term, 4/2*3*4 is the second, 4/4*5*6 i...

lyxal

11:37

y'all ever just be really good at making esolangs and then just not?

i do

emanresu A

You've been doing it for the last 4+ years

Maybe it's time for a break

Fatalize

@lyxal Motivation is the main problem

lyxal

no it's not motivation

it's a lack of new ideas

motivation I've regained recently

but innovation, not so much

@emanresuA I haven't published anything ground-breakingly new since early 2021

I've basically been on a break lol

emanresu A

11:53

See, I'm the opposite - I have a ton of ideas and chaotic motivation

tybocopperkettle and I have a cool idea for langjam if it ends up being 2d

Fatalize

tbh there’s not that much new ideas for straight golfing languages

especially stack-based

emanresu A

There's the realm of encodings

~~where few dare to venture~~

thejonymyster

12:34

@Adám in order of what i think are most to least fit: 🎯🔉⚖️♎️🥈🕕

@Fatalize that is one concern about the concept of langjam that i have; its possible theres not really much ground to tread and everyones lang is gonna be samey for golfiness sake? lol

its also possible we pull a gamejam and innovate :P

Fatalize

@thejonymyster When I read the langjam post, my immediate thought was: "it should not be scored based on how it does in golf challenges"

Otherwise you’ll end up with generic Jelly/stack-based languages with minimal adptation to the theme

PyGamer0

@Fatalize can confirm

Fatalize

@PyGamer0 stop editing REEEEEEEE

my poor ears

PyGamer0

i forgor the speeling

im bad at englsuh

sorry

Fatalize

what’s your native language?

PyGamer0

12:43

Apr 8 at 4:18, by PyGamer0

btw its hindi

thejonymyster

i would have never guessed gg

PyGamer0

it's so easy to guess

Fatalize

statistically it’s like 1/7 chance of being right

PyGamer0

how?

Fatalize

nvm only 600M people speak hindi apparently

so it’s a bit less

thejonymyster

12:46

average english learner: Hi! Sorry for my poor English, it isn't my native language.
average english natural: lafmao dw aboaur iy

PyGamer0

lmao

Fatalize

@thejonymyster that’s welsh

thejonymyster

close enough

@Fatalize yeah T_T i did have a potentially interesting idea with the whole 2D thing but it really did feel like i was just gonna have to look up what all the other golflangs had lol

maybe we should bring this up in the meta?

Fatalize

scoring should be popularity-based

thejonymyster

😱 not another popcon /j

Fatalize

12:49

it’s ok it will be on meta /s

Radvylf Programs

OOOOOOH new ChromeOS update just changed my life

I can type "nin" into the search bar and it autocompletes to TNB

I used to just type that in and then click the suggestion for it

@Fatalize Yeah, I agree here. Maybe with a note recommending voting based on creativity.

Ah frick the RTO room froze again

If any mods are here could you unfreeze this pls

thejonymyster

13:12

@RadvylfPrograms does one of us want to write an answer for it?

CC: @Fatalize even though youre right here lol

unrelated but

any suggestions for my erasure poetry sandbox? I know it isn't finished at all but i'm like, blanking on what's missing / what i need to specify etc. etc... what's left to clear up? the challenge spec? i/o? is the scoring clear? etc etc etc etc etc

im just kinda braindead :-) dont know what exactly the post will/ should look like in finished form or id just do that

Jo King

13:28

@RadvylfPrograms done

Radvylf Programs

Thanks!

thejonymyster

14:50

im surprised, we don't have any (open, undeleted) flowchart related challenges :o

mousetail

@thejonymyster Time to make one

thejonymyster

exactly :-)

though im not sure which direction is better lol

mousetail

Not sure what a flowchart challenge would look like

thejonymyster

yeah no i guess me neither

mousetail

Does this count? codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/251705/… A finite automata is basically a flowchart

thejonymyster

14:51

oh yeahhh that counts

right ok

ill have to see if theres a "draw the automaton" challenge :o

mousetail

That would be interesting, though these algorithms tend to be extremely complex

pxeger

the singular of automata is automaton

thejonymyster

or even just a "draw this graph" yeah

graffe

we had an NFA to DFA conversion challenge once I think

thejonymyster

@pxeger its one of those things you know but forget because one version of the words gets said way more

graffe

14:53

sort of flow chartey :)

thejonymyster

@mousetail like, to plot graphs in 2d space?

pxeger

@thejonymyster I don't think "automata" is much more common that "automaton"

Especially in non-CS contexts

thejonymyster

reasonable

mousetail

@thejonymyster Optimal way to draw a graph to minimize lines crossing and keep nodes spaced sufficiently appart

thejonymyster

oh yea i guess youd wanna have it like... not look like shite :P

didnt ocnsider that part

graffe

14:56

no fastest-code questions since June 17??

I feel I have let the community down

mousetail

Would a fastest bogosort challenge be interesting?

graffe

how would that be specified?

thejonymyster

fastest bogosort?

isnt it just random by definition

oh wait i see what you mean

pxeger

I suspect it would be too hard to measure accurately

mousetail

Run 1000 iterations of bogosort on this 1,000 element array in the shortest time

with a given seed value

pxeger

14:59

Good luck running that in the lifetime of the universe

mousetail

That's why I'm just requiring 1,000 attempts

no way the array actually sorts in that time

pxeger

Oh iterations as in attempts

mousetail

Yea

mathcat

Jul 21 at 14:44, by mathcat

but would "Implement the binomial probability formula with the number of successes >= k" be a good challenge?

pxeger

I thought you meant run bogosort to completion 1000 times

mousetail

15:01

No unforunatly there is no "universe" docker container for that

mathcat

@mathcat (fastest-code)

thejonymyster

15:11

@mousetail so like, youre being graded on how much time (complexity? average?) it takes to choose two elements and switch their positions?

user

This new question looks dupey but it's a CnR

Bubbler

~~close as dupe of each other~~

user

Is that possible actually?

Bubbler

I don't think so

user

Aww

I was gonna do some epic trolling on SO

New Posts

15:22

0

Q: B=A^2 (Cops Question)

For robbers, go to B=A^2 (Robbers Question). The challenge You need to pick any two programming languages (different versions of the same one do not count), A and B, and make a program that outputs any number (except 0 and 1, otherwise it would have been too easy) in A, but that number squared in...

0

Q: B=A^2 (Robbers Question)

For the main rules, check B=A^2 (Cops Question). Find a post in that question, and try to find languages A and B for that post.

number cops-and-robbers

Adám

15:40

@thejonymyster Thanks. I'll go with 🎯. Already used ⚖️ for Mean.

thejonymyster

⚖️ for mean makes more sense good point

is this apl related? or are you making/modifying one of those emoji languages :o

pxeger

@user IIRC you can do it: you close each as a duplicate of different questions, and then edit their dupe lists (requires gold badge) so that they're both duplicates of each other and some other questions, and then remove the other questions?

thejonymyster

is there a sandbox SE to test it on :P

Adám

Seems a Bit Odd To Me (APL Quest 2013-1)

►

thejonymyster

:eyes emoji reaction:

will have to check that out when im not at work :-) ty

oh wait i get it :P thumbnail stuff _^^ still i should definitely check this series out

Transcript for