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12:00 AM
Oh
@NoHaxJustRadvylf is there a preview?
and when is soon in esolang or codegolf standards?
@NobodyNeedsNames Knowing me probably like four years
(Praying it’s not 10 years
@NobodyNeedsNames No, no information about it yet
oh no
To keep it secret?
No, I'm just too lazy to explain my ideas
12:02 AM
and lyal should’ve started
@NoHaxJustRadvylf ………..
And usually they change and I have to keep everyone up to date to prevent confusion
is it lyal?
learn what
pin who
@NoHaxJustRadvylf but that’s a good reason too
oh and when did you change ur name and why
Wait, why is todays lyal SO late?
I am confused
is today Wednesday?
If anyone wants to start today's LYAL, they are welcome to. Otherwise, please stop posting noise
12:21 AM
Um I hope this isn’t noise can someone remind me if python has sci notation? Just saw this codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/97985/111945
@NobodyNeedsNames 1e100 exists but it is a float, which means it is different from exact googol
and 1e100 minus 1 is still 1e100 so if you simply use 1e100 instead of 10**100 then the code will run an infinite loop
Ouch
i guess you can use int (e100)
but that’s like g
long
you can see in the first link, int(1e100) != 10**100
Oh no
i runner it in tio cuz the link didn’t work like the whole site I can’t run it
I wonder if there’s a shorter version
as in
100**50
but shorter
theor. Is impossible
really python should have a few builtins
pi and e and google
that's... not how languages are designed
and you have pi and e once you import math
12:34 AM
@Bubbler but that’s long
lets make a python 4 actually and the only difference is that it executes from math import * for math and is and all the stuff
and int e int actually ends up being an int
thats gotta be golfier
goofier, said my autocorrect lol
I would like to start lyal but
1 idk what the lang is
2 idk the lang
3 idk the links
4 typing on an iPhone is sh*t
@Bubbler and you get one letter shortcuts t for try e for else l for Elif x for except c for exec v for evaluation f for for r for range w for while p for print and I for import and d for read and so on everything’s gotta be way better
for us, not for developers lol
Or even better, we can use the Greek symbols
this lyal is turning into ldw
@Bubbler well, why not just not have any for or while but use recursion!
that was supposed to be a question mark?
Welcome to the twenty-second Learn You A Lang for Great Good! Today, we'll be learning BLANK. During the event, feel free to post CMCs to practice BLANK (BMCs), ask questions about the language, and so on.
That’s the best I can do, sorry
12:51 AM
it's jellyfish right?
Good
thanks
Welcome to the twenty-second Learn You A Lang for Great Good! Today, we'll be learning jellyfish. During the event, feel free to post CMCs to practice jellyfish (JMCs), ask questions about the language, and so on.
4
lemme do a quick esosearch on jellyfish
Wait no it isn’t on esolang help I’m dead
Yah found it
thabks
Jellyfish is what you get when you combine the tacitness of Jelly with the 2D layout of ><>. Each operator takes inputs from below and to the right, and sends outputs up and to the left.
Jellyfish is a two-dimensional esoteric programming language inspired by J and written in Python 3. It was inspired by a challenge on PPCG. The name was suggested in PPCG chat as a combination of Jelly, a golfing language inspired by J, and Fish, a two-dimensional esoteric language. There's a syntax documentation file, a reference file, and an online interpreter, courtesy of Dennis from PPCG.
Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Implement level-index addition
I give up iPhone sucks go to breakfast brb
I'll write one in rSNBATWPL
Gotta go for an hour or so though
ooh thatll be interesting
I think the next lyal is F# and bye really gotta go
1:19 AM
@NoHaxJustRadvylf beeswax?
1:38 AM
@Seggan The language is called Trianguish
The real trianguish would have a memory structure resembling carbon atoms in a diamond
oof
how would you address it
@NoHaxJustRadvylf Despite the name it's not actually going to be too tarpitty. I've tried to make it as easy to use as possible without compromising some core ideas.
repo?
No repo yet
@NoHaxJustRadvylf I have changed my mind this is not worth the suffering
1:53 AM
welp maybe I'll do one in JS
Arnauld already did, otherwise I would've
yeah bruh
welp time to dig out BF or smth
2:53 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

alephalphaExponential transform of an integer sequence code-golf math sequence integer polynomial The exponential generating function (e.g.f.) of a sequence \$a_n\$ is defined as the formal power series \$f(x) = \sum_{n=0}^{\infty} a_n \frac{x^n}{n!}\$. When \$a_0 = 0\$, we can apply the exponential funct...

LDQ: should newline be syntactically significant?
It depends a lot on your vision for the language, even in praclangs
I suggest being consistent with whitespace's significance though
If you use semicolons to end statements, then completely ignore whitespace and don't have things that require indentation. If you use significant whitespace for conditions and loops, then don't have semicolons and use newlines for ending statements.
Trying to compromise between the two will give you a weird coffeescript sort of cursedness and possible ambiguity
But either approach looks good and works fine on its own, and while I prefer C-style due to habit, Python's style of significant whitespace also looks elegant
3:12 AM
if you do go for significant whitespace in a praclang i'd vote for something a bit more like how haskell does it than python
haskell letting you use deeper indents to split general expressions over multiple lines without any other explicit grouping, while python only uses indents for dedicated block statement syntax
3:38 AM
@Seggan for fig, I suggest you make it some sort of function separator
3:57 AM
I really like how Ocaml does it
It’s almost like you use semicolons without realizing you’re using semicolons
(The semicolons are a hyperbole for line killing characters)
Huh i really do get less coherent at night
Happy center cavalry
 
1 hour later…
5:11 AM
Ah yes I do love golfing in php less simple version
i have literally never seen anyone abbreviate pigeonhole principle
Well now you have
This is why I'm a little bit sad there's no zooms for any of my courses this semester
I have to go back to manually screenshotting the stupid stuff
Y'all can't experience it live anymore :(
 
2 hours later…
7:45 AM
0
Q: Count the cells

FatalizeGiven a multi-line string as input containing characters "|", "_" and " " (space), count the number of cells it contains. A cell is the following structure of 3 characters by 2 lines: _ |_| That is, an underscore on one line (the characters to its right and left don’t matter), and "|_|" right b...

Language idea: Basic C style language except the order of operations is inverted
If you have a statement like 2+(4*4) the "+(" becomes a operator that is evaluated first
So it's 6*4=12
The last parenthesy is ignored and can be ommited entirely
So 2+)4*4 would have the same effect
Assignment operator would be applied first so when in a normal language you would write a=b+c now you have to write a=b+(c)
 
1 hour later…
9:20 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

py3programmer Repeat Hello World This was related to a program I am writing. Although the title is simple, the challenge is a lot more complicated. Your challenge: You must write a program that takes some input, and your answer must match the sample outputs in this question. Please write how many bytes it ...

9:59 AM
ugh, that font ATO uses has some weird ligatures :-(
@att thousands of digits
10:16 AM
@Neil Yeah, but you can turn it off in the preferences.
@Adám ah, have barely used it, so didn't know about that, thanks
@att In [5]: %timeit sympy.isprime(2**5000-1)
7.84 µs ± 207 ns per loop (mean ± std. dev. of 7 runs, 100,000 loops each)
that is weirdly fast!
10:43 AM
@Neil fira code
good for people who write in commonly used languages
 
2 hours later…
12:24 PM
@mousetail does this not evaluate the same as 2+4*4?
@thejonymyster Yes
The idea is that a naive attempt at adding parenthesis won't help
You have to add opposite parenthesis
im not sure how the a=b+(c) example works, why doesnt a=b still come first? :P
Any operator "touching" a bracket will be evaluated first
so +( is counted as a single operator wich a higher priority
ahh
silly
im trying to figure out how to n=3n+1
i can do it in two statements :P
(n=3)*(n)+1
The * has 2 sets of parenthesis so it will be evaluated first, followed by the + with only 1
12:29 PM
oml
i kind of love it
i think you should remove the "parenthesis can be omitted entirely" thing, forcing matching parenthesis is way funnier
Good point
I don't have a solid idea how to do function calls yet. Can't use parenthesis really since they have special meaning but I want to keep it looking like it's a regular program at surface level
maybe you can only define like, infix operators? lol idk
/prefix like the negative sign
that would make sense
all functions take exactly 2 arguments might be a interesting restriction
lol call it "Malpractice"
since something something operators
Sorry what is this a reference to?
12:37 PM
@emanresuA thats what i was planning :P
12:49 PM
@mousetail maybe my train of thought went a little too wild but my thought process was "operators work in a weird and bad way" => "operator as in medical doctor who performs an operation" => "bad doctor" => "medical malpractice" idk
Ok, a bit far fetched but all good jokes are far fetched
i will trek to the ends of the earth to fetch a punchline
nah probably best to see how the language pans out in full before naming
@mousetail This is why I use a dog, makes jokes a lot easier :P
:facepalm:
if two operators are equally parenthesized, which goes first? is it strictly left to right? cause i was also thinking about "outside of parenthesis comes first"
12:55 PM
Standard order of operations reversed at first, then I guess right to left to be opposite of other langauges
So 5-3+7 would be evaluated as 5-10 then -5
so in(1+(2+3))+5+(6+7),
3))+5 would be first since two parens
8+(6 next because one paren
1+(2 after because its nested deeper than 8+(6
though i dont know how thatd pan out where the parens were more closely related
which is when itd actually matter
/ make sense to differentiate between
seems overcomplicated actually ignore that whole idea :P
I don' t know if there is actually a case where that would make a difference
actually im a bit unsure of something
how does evaluation work? are the parentheses consumed?
does (1+(2+3))+4 become (1+(2+7
They are ignored. If there was a matching check it would run before the normal evaluation step and afterwards they have no longer effect
ah
so the parentheses are just used to like... apply precedence to each operator, and then are silently removed
1+(2+3) => 1 + 2 + 3
oh that didnt bold lol
ok watevs i get it
1:17 PM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Wheat WizardVerify the diamond property A polytope is a generalization of the concepts of polygons and polyhedra to higher dimensional space. Now higher dimensional space is a little hard to picture so we have a variety of tools for thinking about and working with polytopes to ease this issue. One of these t...

@thejonymyster Looks bold for me
In normal programming languages parenthesis also apply precedence then are silently removed
Though in normal programming they would be removed only from the edges where they would have no effect anyways
1:43 PM
@mousetail took a few tries, 1**+**2 didnt bold for some reason
2:06 PM
0
Q: Tile stacking with ■ and □

Wheat WizardIn this challenge you will receive as input a list of binary lists. The list represents a game board with each element representing a location on the board. The list at each location represents the tiles on the board, with a 0 being a white tile (□) and a 1 being a black tile (■). Each place c...

@UnrelatedString Really? It's useful if you're writing proofs by hand
2:32 PM
**CMC:** Two reasonably normal English words A and B such that:
1. There exists a letter which occurs twice in A and at least thrice in B
2. Each word has at least two letters that do not occur in the other word
Score is length of A plus length of B
So "book" and "topologists" would be a solution?
Yes.
"dolomite" "colonoscopies" -> 21
@Adám Deductive, doodad -> 15
(I just wanted to use doodad, such a stupid sounding word)
@WheatWizard Why come with a longer one if you had a much shorter one before?
2:38 PM
@Adám You didn’t say we need to minimize score
Oh the goal is low score?
Yeah, otherwise any two sufficiently long and complicated words would work.
Fair enough. I thought it was a bit of a boring challenge looking for very long words.
CMC is "code" golf unless otherwise stated.
In this case, the "programming" language is restricted to English.
"ill" "lull" -> 7
2:40 PM
@WheatWizard words don’t have two letters that do not occur in the other
banana, away -> 10
@WheatWizard "ills" and "lolly" is optimal, though, aren't they?
Sure, or "pill" and "lulls"
Can’t get shorter than 9
It’s an easy challenge in English, it has such a massive vocabulary full of short words
Yeah, sorry, I should have made more rules.
I thought it was a simple but interesting ruleset.
You could do something with horizontal and vertical strokes in chinese
2:44 PM
@Fatalize Now try it in a programming language.
but I don’t know chinese so…
"elseif" and "select"? No, needs the 3.
@Adám Can I use variable names? :p
No, that's cheating. Has to be built-ins.
Of course, you can do imports or define variables, but you'd have to add the import or assignment statements to your byte count.
APL, 15: ⎕NDELETE and ⎕NERASE
3:03 PM
@Adám Institutionalisation, Magnetohydrodynamical
this is code golf
Is English a valid language to golf in?
@Adám I know, just trying to find a good solution myself first
x86 assembly: addss, subss
It was originally the only valid one, but it turned out trivially optimisable, so I switched to proper PLs.
@Bubbler Nice!
3:06 PM
9 bytes: dppd, addsd
Oh wow, optimal again.
3:40 PM
@Adám how about a triplet for which this is true of each pair?
(no set order for the pairs, just whatever works)
m90
m90
@thejonymyster levee, emcee, tree
wait, is the letter that appears twice allowed to appear more than twice?
the wording is "occurs twice in A and at least thrice in B", is that an "exactly twice"?
@thejonymyster Not in the original rules, but if you want it to work for each pair in a triplet, you have to bend that rule
well you could use a different letter for your two-three relationship
Oh, fair
3:46 PM
i was looking at "spills"
or "spools" but i cant think of any short words with three os or three ls
"lull" and "loll" for l
m90
m90
3 satisfying "exactly twice": levee, presses, sensed
nice
nontrivial to verify
i wonder the complexity
or, well
nontrivial in that i had to keep looking around
might be computationally trivial :P
that seems pretty optimal honestly but im not sure of the math
m90
m90
I think it is indeed optimal. Proof:
If two pairs use the same letter, that's at least 7 of that letter, 5 of the letter for the remaining pair, then all 3 words need 2 more letters, for 18.
If all three pairs use different letters, that's 5*3, and then each word needs 1 more letter, for a total of 18 again.
now to find the formula for the optimal score for any ruleset >:)
w words, each pair containing a letter appearing x times in one word, at least y times in the other, and z letters in each word not appearing in the other
4:10 PM
@thejonymyster A triplet that forms a rock-paper-scissors-style cycle: hubbub, billable, unusually
4:23 PM
:D
4:45 PM
nice
m90
m90
4:59 PM
An optimal triplet of the second form (each pair using a different letter): lessees, stats, tetter
A 1-short-of-optimal triplet of the second form using less-obscure words: allele, sills, excesses
 
1 hour later…
6:01 PM
@Adám Kotlin, else, delegate -> 12
annotation and companion work too
6:18 PM
RMDIR and ERROR in QBasic
Interestingly, it looks like ERROR is the only QBasic keyword that contains three copies of a single letter.
What do you think, for an average person, the percentage of maths is they learned in school but didn't use "in real life"?
The math used in their profession is not included.
I... haven't the foggiest idea how to estimate that.
(And how are we defining "learned"? Does "sat in class while it was covered, but never really understood it" count?)
I'll change learned to "taught"
@mathcat 65%
hmm okay
6:24 PM
Past elementary school, the point of math education isn't so much the math itself, but the problem solving and mathematical literacy
Right, but I think people who'd choose a career that doesn't have anything to do with mathematics, they'd only want to learn basic maths and improve their problem-solving skills.
and mathematical literacy probably is more than 50% of the maths lessons taught after elementary school
@NoHaxJustRadvylf But the way it's taught, it becomes mainly memorizing theorems/techniques and applying them blindly, then forgetting them when the next unit starts
let alone the memorization of formulas
@user Well yeah, because standardized testing, bad teaching, etc.
I feel like maths is taught wrong all over the world.
6:32 PM
But I can't say I've experienced being expected to blindly apply theorems and stuff
I mean, teaching and making standards for education are really hard
Usually it's problems where you have to figure out what to apply
@NoHaxJustRadvylf Ok yeah, you often need to know when to apply what
hmm right
But most of the time, problems tell do tell you to use X theorem to rewrite Y, after which it becomes trivial stuff that a computer should be doing
6:33 PM
My school district is somewhat better at teaching math than others I think, we had units about things like correlation vs. causation, personal financial literacy, etc.
More of that would be good IMO
Did anyone actually pay attention during the financial literacy unit? :P
Well no because big brain Texas and/or school district decided to put it in 6th grade
Try teaching a bunch of 12 year olds about compound interest and credit cards
Because people on Reddit say they learned how to file taxes all the time, but I doubt anyone actually wants that (my math teacher had a single class on that during a "mental health" day and everyone slept through it)
lmao do they expect 6th graders to have credit cards?
6:35 PM
@NoHaxJustRadvylf at least I had taxes in the 7th
@user Do they? I thought it's usually complaints about not being taught how to file taxes
i'm a sophomore in college and don't have a credit card :P
@NoHaxJustRadvylf they complain about that after the fact
@NoHaxJustRadvylf I dropped two words: "wished they"
no middle or high schooler in the moment actually wants to learn how to file taxes
I learned how to file taxes by... doing my family's taxes. (With supervision, of course.) I was probably around 10.
6:36 PM
Pretend I didn't forget those and the sentence makes more sense
iirc i had some kind of "financial literacy" module in a class that was otherwise us history but it was mostly just various types of bank account and investment options
and nothing about filing taxes
come to think of it who the fuck thought of teaching high schoolers about the *stock market*
what's the point
@UnrelatedString I mean, economics classes in high school are pretty normal, so teaching a bit of economics in a US history class would make sense (since history and economics are usually in the same department)
Yeah, but, financial literacy and maths don't fit together at all
 
2 hours later…
8:18 PM
@mathcat But, numbers!
@AidenChow "Jellyfish was learned for great good during the event on July 19, 2022"--was it, though? :P
Preview #2:
whoah
still dont get how you address
Address what
(If this is what you're talking about that was a joke, it has nothing to do with how the actual language works)
@DLosc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Call me old fashioned but I like my agony to be hexagonal
8:31 PM
It's taken me four years to find a name for this language that communicated the same idea as "Hexagony" without seeming like a variant of it :p
@NoHaxJustRadvylf ah
what lang u making??
so its hexagnony, around the edges?
It's not related to Hexagony in any way aside from having hexagons :p
Every operator is a vertex between three hexagons (or alternatively, a tiled triangle)
Cat program in Trianguish:
Actually that doesn't work lol
But it would look something like that
The three that have the brown parts are self modifying operators
9:07 PM
does it read out of an image or what?
or do you have some kind of ascii scheme that outputs into an image
or like an online interface
9:26 PM
An online interface, and I'll have a binary (or rather, base-6) representation you can download
9:45 PM
in Sixth Barrel , Apr 2, 2020 at 4:45, by Lyxal
I'll be working on a new golfing language I'm planning to call "Vyxal"
6
Crazy to think that was just over two years ago.
Huh, that was after the pandemic started
@user dang thats crazy when you put it that way
10:20 PM
Hey not everything I say is crazy :P
 
2 hours later…
11:59 PM
@NoHaxJustRadvylf i thought zachtronics was retiring :P
this looks hype lol
also: trianguish just makes me think of tryapl
"Try anguish!"

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