The Nineteenth Byte

thejonymyster

00:25

@emanresuA wait im confused, what exactly does it do?

emanresu A

[a, b] = [stack.pop(), stack.pop()]; stack.push(a)

thejonymyster

oh right i forgot pop is meant to discard an item

i was like "where does the other one go??"

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Seeing the queen's lasers, Interpret BigTalk

thejonymyster

i still think bigtalk could work if it changed more about the language

emanresu A

Yeah, but I have no idea what to do with it

thejonymyster

pretty much anything :P

maybe a way to halt early?

emanresu A

Ooh, I have an idea

thejonymyster

:D exciting

emanresu A

01:17

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Interpret BigTalk Talk is a language which takes a single bit of input and has four commands: 00 If the accumulator is 0, set the accumulator to 0. 01 If the accumulator is 0, set the accumulator to 1. 10 If the accumulator is 1, set the accumulator to 0. 11 If the accumulator is 1, set the accu...

Radvylf Programs

There seem to only actually be three things a Talk program can do: Return the input unchanged, return 0, or return 1

Since 00 and 11 are identity operators, and 01 and 10 both set the accumulator to a constant

thejonymyster

do you think its tc

(talk complete)

emanresu A

Possibly

thejonymyster

the challenge doesnt seem bad but it doesnt really seem like its talk related anymore :P

Radvylf Programs

Well, it talks in about the same way some people do, either agreeing no matter what you said, disagreeing no matter what you said, or rewording exactly what you just said and acting like it's adding onto the conversation

thejonymyster

01:22

lmao

i agree completely

emanresu A

lmao

Unrelated String

so true

emanresu A

We're all 11

caird coinheringaahing

@thejonymyster talk isn't tc, as all talk programs terminate IIRC

emanresu A

The variantishn't I've created might be

thejonymyster

01:32

i mean your variant is just a slashes derivative isn't it? :P

it doesnt do the "keep replacing until it stops changing" thing though, it seems

emanresu A

Yes it doe

Oh waitn vm

lyxal

02:10

@RadvylfPrograms I disagree

emanresu A

02:21

Just showed a friend ArnoldC

CMQ: I've gone and (partially) implemented nilad-dyad pairs as single monads. Should I just go all the way and group nilads until either there's another nilad or it becomes at least a monad?

E.g. ND is grouped as a single element, so is NMD, but NMND is grouped as (NM)(ND)

Since taking input is a nilad, I don't want to go too far. Thoughts?

Bubbler

honestly I don't get the purpose of grouping like that

Unrelated String

@emanresuA wait what

what does taking input... take

emanresu A

Oops, nilad

thejonymyster

prolly an amouint

oh, i mean monadic input could make sense

"take n bytes"

Radvylf Programs

@UnrelatedString Input, silly :p

emanresu A

02:33

@Bubbler The main purpose is so that modifiers (Like Jelly quicks) can easily take multiple elements.

thejonymyster

tbh if youve never seen it done that way i say do it just for the experimental value :P

Bubbler

so you want to group ND into an M and NM into an N?

emanresu A

Pretty much

Radvylf Programs

Either do normal stack-based or go full tacit, but halfway like that is just going to create problems

emanresu A

Vyxal goes halfway and it works

Bubbler

02:35

sounds like it's subject to recursive grouping explosion

thejonymyster

i just realized what tho9se letters stood for -_-

Unrelated String

come to think of it what would the possible problem be with the get-input nilad
are you thinking of also having some kind of implicit cycle-stack, so the problem would be that the grouping actually consumes something that's supposed to live on the stack "reusably"?

emanresu A

@thejonymyster How did you hit a 9 in the middle of that sentence

Unrelated String

it's close to o

thejonymyster

qwerty o9 adjacency yea

emanresu A

02:37

@UnrelatedString Actually I guess not too much. hmm, interesting idea. Will think about it

Radvylf Programs

That's actually really cool that google/DDG/whatever you're using can do B64 conversion for you

If a little unintelligently

thejonymyster

omg how do i get the inverse of that

i just had a great idea :P

Radvylf Programs

Reopen voting time

emanresu A

@RadvylfPrograms Still sus tho

Aiden Chow

needs code golf tag still

nvm

they just edited it in lol

Radvylf Programs

02:48

Wait but they also removed the "this is code golf" part...

Fixed

Radvylf Programs

03:16

Big problem

26

Q: Add a hidden language to a polyglot

Inspired/mostly copied but I don't think it's a dupe. Also Inspired. In this challenge, you will create polyglots that include all languages from previous answers, and another language which you won't share and others must guess. The first language prints 1, the second prints 2, etcetera. For exa...

Basically every rSNBATWPL answer here is a snippet, not a full program

And I don't think the rules allow that

I think DSO's behavior of acting like a REPL and printing the result of the last statement is really misleading and contributes to that (my fault for not pointing that out earlier)

Aiden Chow

dang shouldve said that earlier lol

like when the answer was posted

i think too late now

Radvylf Programs

Didn't realize until now

thejonymyster

just cite "interpreter is language" and call it a night? :P

Radvylf Programs

I suppose an exception could be made since the behavior of literally every interpreter except the Node/NPM one is basically a one-time-use REPL, but it's kind of annoying now that I'm aware of it lol

thejonymyster

r/accidentalgolfinglang

unrelated but does anyone know how to steal code from google

i want that stupid google docs "draw shit and we'll find a bunch of similar unicode characters" for offline use

(for codepage reasons ofc, im on topic ;P)

lyxal

03:28

shapecatcher.com

No need for google

thejonymyster

ty kindly

lyxal

As opposed to "ty rudely" :p

PyGamer0

@pxeger multi threading :P

@RadvylfPrograms i will remove that.

lyxal

@emanresuA sounds good to me

So long as your modifiers are prefix there shouldn't be too much trouble

emanresu A

@thejonymyster Agee Ed

emanresu A

03:49

CMQ: what *doesn’t a gollang need?

lyxal

Crypto utilities

Unrelated String

redundancy, sanity checks, the ability to define extra types

thejonymyster

input

lyxal

So just a redundancy fixing thing I was thinking about for stack languages is putting all trailing nilads at the start of the program before running

Like if you run 3+ 4 it puts the 4 at the front before executing it

Thoughts on the idea?

Unrelated String

wouldn't be super useful but it could make some literals shorter

like in your example 3+4 is shorter than 4 3+

and you can put a string at the end with no trailing quote then still be able to actually use it

...maybe push trailing nilads under implicit input at the start?

so you sort of have this option of implicit swap in some cases

and choosing to write something with trailing nilads is more usefully distinct from writing them at the start to begin with

lyxal

03:59

@UnrelatedString like adding them to the list of inputs?

Unrelated String

i suppose so yeah

like if you want to divide the single input by 5 you can 5/ but if you want to divide 5 by it you can /5

...which would confuse the absolute hell out of anyone who tries to think of it like infix :P

thejonymyster

that rules

could make for some funny cnr antics as well :P

Unrelated String

ahahahah

yes

emanresu A

04:45

@lyxal Ooh, adding this to my WiP golflang

lyxal

And me to Vyxal 3

pxeger

05:44

@UnrelatedString somewhat similar to my variable fixity idea

Unrelated String

oh?

that sounds
very interesting

pxeger

Nov 16, 2021 at 13:45, by pxeger

@RedwolfPrograms here's an idea I once had: stack-based, but if a function call has fewer arguments on the stack than it needs, it takes them all and puts a partial function on the stack; the next time an item gets pushed on the stack, it will be consumed by the partial function. This would make 1 2 +, + 1 2, and 1 + 2 all the same

Unrelated String

oh yeah that

emanresu A

tictac

emanresu A

06:18

@lyxal ಠ_ಠ on the compiled code

Unrelated String

...investigated that comparative and what exactly does Coherse mean

ah

Oct 26, 2021 at 10:56, by pxeger

my point is that "coherse" is definitely not a word lol

i guess it's somewhere between "cohere" and "coerce"

pxeger

06:39

Is meta down for anyone else?

emanresu A

Nope?

Jo King

a bunch of random things are down for me, e.g. discord and some sites

emanresu A

Might be a cloudflare thing

pxeger

$ delv meta.stackexchange.com @1.1.1.1
;; resolution failed: SERVFAIL

dammit cloudflare

emanresu A

I was having cloudflare issues before but it's working now

23TuringMachine

06:44

For me: Quora, discord, conlang.org. All down. 'Tis quite annoying.

Jo King

interesting, i can access codegolf on my local pc but not on my work vpn

Unrelated String

yep i'm seeing various issues too

23TuringMachine

Interesting. Perhaps it is geographical in nature?

Unrelated String

discord mega dead

cgcc seems to load but slowly

emanresu A

Is scala-js.org down for everyone?

23TuringMachine

06:46

Reddit is up. Yes, 'tis down @emanresuA. For me, that is.

Unrelated String

seems so

pxeger

Switching my DNS to 9.9.9.9 instead of 1.1.1.1 has solved some of the problems

but any site that goes through cloudflare itself is still down

23TuringMachine

Likewise @Pxeger.

pxeger

cloudflarestatus.com/incidents/xvs51y9qs9dj

23TuringMachine

Ah, imma bookmark that site.

Good to know of.

Thanks!

emanresu A

06:50

Even outage.bingo is down :(

Unrelated String

ironic

hyper-neutrino

interesting, it works for me

emanresu A

I get error 500

pxeger

yeah, apparently it's geographic, people on twitter are saying everything is fine in france

Jo King

i think this is going to be a really interesting writeup

Unrelated String

06:53

@emanresuA i got that the first time but now it's actually a cloudflare page telling me 522

pxeger

Cloudflare always do a good job of incident writeups yeah

emanresu A

Unlike cough SE cough

pxeger

SE never goes down. I don't know what you're talking about

Unrelated String

and specifically the 522 page is telling me cloudflare servers are connecting fine but are themselves timing out when trying to reach outage.bingo

which is really weird for a problem that is itself clearly with cloudflare

emanresu A

^^

@pxeger Yeah, SE going down has never been recorded by SE.

pxeger

06:55

@UnrelatedString pxeger.com shows that too, but if I know for a fact that the origin server is working fine, because it's the same server running staging.ato.pxeger.com

Unrelated String

amazing

emanresu A

Yeah, pxeger.com is down

Although ato.pxeger.com is up for me

pxeger

that's because ATO doesn't go through cloudflare, but my personal site does

emanresu A

Why :P

Does your personal email work?

I'll try emailing you

23TuringMachine

Identified - The issue has been identified and a fix is being implemented. cloudflarestatus.com

Thank god!

pxeger

06:59

@emanresuA yes

Jo King

i really wonder what's causing the mismatch in coverage, like what happened to these services that managed to corrupt the local DNSes?

maybe some bad refresh code that wasn't updating them correctly

emanresu A

I bet y'all it's a missing null terminator

23TuringMachine

Or maybe (god forbid) a = instead of an ==?

Ah, everything is up again (at least for me).

Unrelated String

lucky

hyper-neutrino

ngl the only site i've found to be down is discordstatus.com lol

(not even discord itself)

emanresu A

07:08

Bruh

Nobody Needs Names

@hyper-neutrino what?

Unrelated String

amazing

Nobody Needs Names

@pxeger

> All emails with job offers will be unconditionally ignored.

Auto-filtering?

Unrelated String

discord finally back for me

...mostly

lyxal

@UnrelatedString basically type dictionaries from vyxal but worse

Unrelated String

07:19

ah

pxeger

> Monitoring
> A fix has been implemented and we are monitoring the results.
> Posted 2 minutes ago. Jun 21, 2022 - 07:20 UTC

emanresu A

07:43

I tried doing the legendary Haskell fix error but it doesn't work

Unrelated String

xd

emanresu A

07:57

TIL typescript's smart enouugh to handle conditionals where if something executes nothing else will

Like: (a: 0 | 1) => { if(a == 0) return 5; if(!a) return 6;} will throw a compile error on the !a because at this point it'll always be false

emanresu A

08:45

Cursed idea: Postfix digraphs for a golflang

Unrelated String

as in the digraphs are distinguished by suffixes? yikes

emanresu A

@pxeger An idea for Newspeak: Don't allow builtin combinations that are collectively NOPs e.g. double reverse or increment decrement

Unrelated String

^

Bubbler

10:13

A bf interpreter, over- and under-engineered at the same time

pxeger

May 30 at 9:08, by pxeger

I also thought about trying to write an "optimising compiler", but in reverse, so that you can't write things that are suboptimal like 1+1 (you'd have to write 2 instead)

non-trivial ;)

@emanresuA I think at least one in the Pyth/Japt category has something like that?

emanresu A

11:05

@pxeger Although if you mantain a list of redundancies and simply make each character's possibilities depend also on the previous char, that should work

Ooh, since you have such static typing you can do even more optimisation for specific types

Unrelated String

because this wouldn't necessarily be eliminating arbitrarily large redundant snippets, just eliminating small known redundant sequences

pxeger

Clearly, the general case of this is undecideable

but even simple cases like 1 1 + are very hard to remove from the syntax, and especially will make encoding ridiculously complicated. It's already basically O(n^3)

user

Wouldn't it be as simple as running an optimizer on your code and comparing the changes?

Like maybe running the Closure compiler on some JS and alerting the user wherever the compiler has stuff the source didn't or vice versa

@Bubbler Are you accepting PRs to that repo btw? I want to practice some Rust and writing interpreters would be fun

Btw, what happened to TiB?

mousetail

12:09

@user You are grossly overestimating how good optimizers are today. They have some basic heuristics for replacing bits of bytecode for more efficient bits of bytecode. They don't normally remove a entire part of a program if it's a no-op, especially if someone is purposefully opposing it

user

Ah ok

mousetail

I watched a talk recently about the impacts if a real optimizer was ever invented. You could hard code input into a program, then optimize it to create a specifier. Thus optimizing a interpreter with a program would create a optimal program like a compiler. Optimizing the optimizer on itself would create a optimal compiler from any interpreter.

Bubbler

12:30

@user No, not accepting PRs for now, though my mind may change later

I'm aiming for performance and a usable cli this time

and for TIB, I concluded the current design doesn't quite work

Maybe I'll make TIB 2 if I feel like it would work again

user

13:07

Ah ok

Seggan

14:42

i just realized that most code-golf is scored in base 255

lyxal

how so?

PyGamer0

> The fig is the edible fruit of Ficus carica, a species of small tree in the flowering plant family Moraceae. Native to the Mediterranean and western Asia, it has been cultivated since ancient times and is now widely grown throughout the world, both for its fruit and as an ornamental plant.

vs

> Flax, also known as common flax or linseed, is a flowering plant, Linum usitatissimum, in the family Linaceae. It is cultivated as a food and fiber crop in regions of the world with temperate climates.

cmp: which is the cooler wiki description :P

@Seggan wait how?

Seggan

15:02

@PyGamer0 Obviously fig

@PyGamer0 @lyxal becuase we score in bytes, not bits

each byte = 255

@PyGamer0 they messed up your casing

Fig is longer anyway

thejonymyster

@Seggan thats not what base 255 means :P

if it were actually base 255 (and i think you mean 256 but whatever) the program b would score higher than the program a

Seggan

oh yeah

*facepalm*

thejonymyster

...which could be a funny code challenge score system if it werent almost the same as regular code golf lol

DLosc

@emanresuA Yes! #inclusiveor

thejonymyster

16:11

anything else this before post?

there was a small issue where i flubbed the test cases but it should be all fixed now :)

New Posts

0

Q: Find the walls឵឵឵឵឵឵឵឵឵឵឵

This is a simpler subset of my previous challenge Don't touch the walls!, as suggested by Jonah. Given a multi-dimensional rectangular array of integers between 0 and 9, output all the elements which are "touching the edges". Output is very flexible: it can be in any order, and may be flattened o...

code-golf array

DLosc

@NewPosts I haven't tried to program it yet, but I suspect this one will actually be harder in BQN than the previous challenge

PyGamer0

16:37

@DLosc what do you (yes you) think about this codepage

thejonymyster

i wish there was a way to force monospace regardless of font :P

pxeger

@thejonymyster 𝚝𝚑𝚎𝚛𝚎 𝚒𝚜

𝚒𝚝'𝚜 𝚓𝚞𝚜𝚝 𝚔𝚒𝚗𝚍𝚊 𝚜𝚝𝚞𝚙𝚒𝚍

thejonymyster

16:54

@pxeger what is the way ? :-)

pxeger

compart.com/en/unicode/U+1D68A

thejonymyster

oh lolol

no i meant for anything

like all the weird unicode n such

Seggan

there needs to be a "combining monospace" char :P

pxeger

Yeah, because what Unicode really needs is more features

caird coinheringaahing

Unicode should just be ASCII, and then everything else is combining characters

pxeger

17:02

Unicode should be reduced to the null character and one combining character, to make a unary encoding

thejonymyster

@PyGamer0 you should maybe get rid of the note about .s representing empty spaces :P

pxeger

CMC open-ended-function: shortest program to attempt to allocate memory infinitely (like while true { malloc(1) } or string = ""; while true { string += "x" }))

exact spec: memory usage must be at least linear with time, and the program must run forever or until it runs out of available memory

DLosc

17:36

@PyGamer0 I'd like it quite well, if it weren't for the fact that most fonts won't properly monospace all the characters. :( I appreciate how there's only one set of dotted letters, and I like the mathematical symbols and Greek letters.

Though I will say that lowercase o and lowercase omicron shouldn't both be in there, since unfortunately there's no way to distinguish them. Same probably goes for superscript 0 and degree symbol.

If you want a Greek letter to use instead of omicron, ϡ might be a good option.

thejonymyster

18:21

@pxeger bf, depends on the flavor: +[+] or +[>+]

pxeger

with arbitrary-sized integer cells, +[+] increases only logarithmically with time, right?

thejonymyster

oh right cause of like, how numbers work :P

its probably doable that way in bf but yeah idk how then /shrug

Adám

@pxeger APL:

x←⍬
→x,←2

thejonymyster

i was scared for a second there that you meant the empty program

having trouble thinking of langs where it isnt as trivial as the string thing but also probably possible :|c hmm

DLosc

18:43

@pxeger W1lPB1 should work in Pip, I think

pxeger

GitHub Copilot is now generally available: github.blog/…

6

forest

@pxeger Oh dear... if that starts being used frequently, bad things will happen.

DLosc

@pxeger BitCycle, 6 bytes (doubles the number of bits on the playfield every 4 ticks)

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger Linear in theory, or for real?

Wouldn't be surprised if V8 optimizes away a lot of the obvious ways in JS

@pxeger I don't think that's a correct usage of open-ended-function, right? It's not just "a program that does a thing", otherwise it would apply to practically everything

Ooh TIL ray tracing can be done with sound too

thejonymyster

18:59

@RadvylfPrograms woah? link?

Radvylf Programs

Wikipedia, which links to this: gamedeveloper.com/audio/the-next-big-steps-in-game-sound-design

thejonymyster

@RadvylfPrograms sure it is, read the tag desc

Radvylf Programs

Well sure, but that fits a huge variety of challenges

thejonymyster

its an open ended tag :P

Radvylf Programs

I read it as more of "a function (as in, you give it input and it produces output) which can implement one of a variety of algorithms which satisfy some property"

@thejonymyster Which is bad :p

thejonymyster

19:01

it should be rewritten a bit maybe

cause intuitively i think we all know what it actually means but like

yknow

Radvylf Programs

I think "function" in "open ended function" is referring to functions in the more mathematical sense...taking input and producing output, and allocating infinite memory is not a function (nor is it at all open ended IMO)

thejonymyster

right agree

is this an open ended function?

Radvylf Programs

I'd say yes, since there's infinitely many ways you can do it, due to the variety of distributions you could choose from.

But it's borderline, and I personally wouldn't've included the tag

Since it adds basically nothing and devalues the tag in the future

thejonymyster

i dont see how this is open ended at all :P

sorry now im just scrolling through the tag and nitpicking XD its fun for some reason

pxeger

19:17

@RadvylfPrograms I don't see how its use on that challenge is different to on most others

It's arguably something like a meta tag

Radvylf Programs

But what you're asking for is neither open ended nor a function

pxeger

it doesn't really describe the approach you'll need to take in solving the challenge, which is the main use for tags

Radvylf Programs

No, but it's a particular type of challenge, which yours clearly doesn't fit in

pxeger

"can implement one of a variety of algorithms which satisfy some property" is clearly the important part

The fact it's not a mathematical function is not very relevant

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger But that's true with every challenge

There's always a way to do it with a different algorithm. What matters is that if one answer f(x) returns 2 given 3, another answer g(x) might return 3 given 3. The actual values of the inputs and outputs doesn't matter or have to be consistent with other answers or some spec, it just needs to follow some property.

E.g., a function which always returns an even number. Doesn't matter which even number, or how it's determined. That's obviously a super trivial and boring example, but it's different from regular code-golf in that the actual function you write can vary in what it does not just how it does it.

Wheat Wizard

19:36

@pxeger IMO meta tags is a dumb concept. It's not really a thing, it's basically a proxy for bad tags but with a nonsense definiton that only serves to obfusticate conversation. There are bad tags and it's more useful to discuss whether a tag is useful rather than whether it is "meta".

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms and how do these challenges not fit the description of "varying in what they do, not just how the do it"?

thejonymyster

phrasing mistake?, the f(x) 2=>3 g(x) 3=>3 is an example of an open ended function in contrast with standard code golf where f(x) 2=>2 and g(x)2=>2/

Radvylf Programs

@pxeger Difficult to say since your challenge doesn't even involve any functions

thejonymyster

(i think i misunderstood which challenges were "these challenges" oopsie)

Radvylf Programs

There's no input and output, so there isn't really anything you can do other than side effects, which I don't think can really be talked about in terms of open-ended vs. not-open-ended

thejonymyster

19:49

i definitely think the tag desc should be clarified either way :P

Radvylf Programs

It's a bit difficult to clarify in just the excerpt though

But yeah it definitely needs more clarity

Transcript for