The Nineteenth Byte

pxeger

17:00

also, thanks to improvements to the build system (which I didn't even mention in the changelog, oops), ATO now only uses 6.7GB for all {however many} languages it has!

Radvylf Programs

Wait, ATO releases in discrete versions? Smh, if you don't write code on the production server you're missing out.

Ginger Industries

imagine not pushing to prod

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms I do write code on staging quite often, but the version number doesn't change so nobody knows I'm doing it

Ginger Industries

big brain

pxeger

For instance, if you used staging 2 hours ago, you'd have seen a "language" called DOESNTEXIST, which would produce an error message if you tried to use it

Ginger Industries

17:02

I'm going to work on the signed-in version of the RTO frontend soon

pxeger

do you mean RTO? lol

Ginger Industries

you saw nothing

nothing

Radvylf Programs

@GingerIndustries *your prototype of

I'm planning on getting back to work on RTO soon, I have some ideas that could possibly fix the sandboxing

No promises

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms (also, it doesn't really release in discrete versions; ato.pxeger.com is currently on a version half way between v0.1.14 and v0.1.15)

Ginger Industries

@RadvylfPrograms :D

Radvylf Programs

17:08

Once I have sandboxing working though, I've decided I'm just gonna add the whole list of 98 languages

Maybe with the exception of Whython, I might leave that to pxeger to be ATO-exclusive

Ginger Industries

@RadvylfPrograms ~~including APOL~~

Radvylf Programs

That's a rather...phallic emoticon

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms I'm not bothered, you can have Whython on RTO if you want

Ginger Industries

@RadvylfPrograms wait 98?

time to add pagination

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms Your SE bio still links to your old GitHub and redwolfprograms.com domain

Ginger Industries

17:10

also... I have to write a description for every single one of those

Radvylf Programs

Well, 98 at first. Planning on eventually getting around to as many of the ~700 languages used on CGCC as possible, and people will still be able to add their own languages

@GingerIndustries How about not doing that?

Seems like a big waste of everyone's time

@pxeger Will fix, thanks

Ginger Industries

@RadvylfPrograms without the description the Docker card layout thing doesn't really work too well

Radvylf Programs

My website link is still http lol

Ginger Industries

and I like that layout

pxeger

oh your GitHub profile also links to the old domain lol

and your website still links to your old github

Radvylf Programs

17:12

I'll fix that later

Given how bad my internet is right now, I'm not even going to attempt to SSH since the school wifi thinks it's a VPN or streaming site and drops my bandwidth a bunch

What's the point of FPTP and runoff votes and stuff when you could just make the person with the most votes the winner...

pxeger

> just make the person with the most votes the winner

that is FPTP

Radvylf Programs

I mean, I guess in the case of a seriously split party, it could help, but just do IRV at that point

Hmm, when I hear FPTP I think of systems where you need 50% of the votes in order to win

In a lot of things over here you need 50%, so if nobody gets that many, they do a runoff vote

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms Wait really? I'm used to U.S. elections being "whoever gets the most is the winner, period."

Radvylf Programs

I think it's mostly Texas elections I've heard of using the runoff votes

DLosc

(Though I guess technically the presidential election does require you to get 50%... of the electoral college.)

This would probably be a horrible idea because of some reason I haven't thought of, but I wonder what it would be like if you could just vote for as many candidates as you wanted, and each vote counted the same amount. So if you wanted one specific candidate to become president, you'd just vote for them, but if you didn't care too much who becomes president except you don't like Candidate X, you could vote for everyone but Candidate X.

It's be a lot easier to count than the ranked choice system that NYC tried recently.

Radvylf Programs

17:28

So Approval Voting?

DLosc

BRB, Wikipediaing

Radvylf Programs

Not a fan of it personally, as it encourages strategic voting, and isn't nearly as effective as IRV

I've heard a quote from someone, not sure who, but it's something along the lines of "approval voting is great for picking where to go to lunch, and nothing bigger"

Since the main point of things like IRV is to make it so that more than two parties can be competitive, but if there's a smaller party that leans more to, let's say, the right, anyone who votes for that one will probably check off the Republicans too (since that'd likely be a better option to them than the Democrats, and they know they're more likely to win than the smaller party), so the small parties would still never have a chance to win.

Whereas with IRV, your vote only helps the Republicans if the smaller party you'd prefer more doesn't win

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms And who gets a bounty in CGCC's Best-Of ;)

@RadvylfPrograms Interesting

> The first two "flaws" are considered advantages by advocates of approval voting, as it chooses centrist candidates with broad appeal rather than polarizing candidates who appeal only to the majority.

Radvylf Programs

But with IRV, parties are more encouraged to form things like coalitions instead of just being absorbed into the Democratic or Republican party's viewpoints, which tends to happen whenever a third party starts getting attention

Ginger Industries

17:45

Radvylf Programs

RTO's running from what I can tell

Ginger Industries

hmm

oh

it's trying to connect to the old address

actually so is the official site

@RadvylfPrograms you might want to tell rto.run about the new domain

turns out wss doesn't like redirects

tio has 420 recreational languages

Radvylf Programs

Its servers must be in washington

Recreational 420

Ginger Industries

SuS

Radvylf Programs

I'm kinda susin su TIO's number of languages, since there are only roughly 700 languages on CGCC including different versions and flags, it seems like a lot of the languages on TIO have probably never been used on CGCC before

Ginger Industries

17:54

hmm

what are the most starred messages in this room?

Radvylf Programs

Doorknob's star abuse message with 127

Neil

@RadvylfPrograms there's a list?

Radvylf Programs

I have a list written on a whiteboard in my room

Of languages to add

Ginger Industries

but eventually you can just upload langs

Radvylf Programs

It just consists of the top 50 or so languages on CGCC, plus all of the languages that have been LotM or are on ATO

Ginger Industries

17:56

so... not APOL

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms For a minute there I thought you were talking about a list of most starred messages, which would be quite strange to have on a whiteboard in your room

Radvylf Programs

@GingerIndustries I'll add that too

Ginger Industries

thanks

Radvylf Programs

There's some other ones I threw in, like all of the half-byte langs or some langs made by TNBers

pxeger

I used to have a whiteboard above my desk, but I felt like I never used it so I switched it to a world map

Radvylf Programs

17:57

I have both like a true gamer

pxeger

I now feel like I want it back

Radvylf Programs

Well, the map's on another wall

It's a really big map, and a nice projection too

Ginger Industries

I'm going to make a mockup of the language upload screen

Radvylf Programs

Took a lot of work to find it

pxeger

my world map is about 190cm x 120cm

or 48in x 72in

Radvylf Programs

17:58

Sounds like the same size as mine

pxeger

mine's nice too

but it's from 1982

Radvylf Programs

lol

pxeger

so I'd love to know where yours is from, because I've been wanting an up-to-date one

Radvylf Programs

I'll check when I get home

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms I searched up a few and Hobbes was the only one I couldn't find. But TIO's language count is somewhat inflated by the fact that it has multiple versions of some languages.

@RadvylfPrograms A true gamer would have a world map drawn on a whiteboard

Ginger Industries

18:01

A true gamer would have this entire conversation drawn on a whiteboard

they redesigned developer.mozilla.org

DLosc

Whoa

Radvylf Programs

Putin: "We're in Ukraine to kill the nazis"
Also Putin: Bombs a holocaust memorial
Also Putin: "We're in Ukraine to kill the extremist communists"

So you heard it here, folks. Ukraine's just brimming with alt-right communists.

DLosc

18:26

@RadvylfPrograms There's a trope for that

mathcat

Can I make a function, which sets a var to 1 and then executes another function?

Bgil Midol

what language?

mathcat

oh sorry, desmos

Radvylf Programs

So you're telling me this is clear enough for WB, but my question about iron smelting wasn't?

I feel like there's a bit of a double standard in what's allowed for fantasy/sci-fi-but-really-just-fantasy vs. science-based questions

DLosc

19:03

Could be. The more sciencey a question is, the more it opens itself to a comment of "What research have you done?" Whereas if it's straight fantasy (space-themed or not), you can't exactly do research.

Radvylf Programs

Ugh I've heard like three people now try to use Ukraine justify the 2nd amendment

Conveniently ignoring the fact that weapons were distributed by the Ukranian government to the defenders, which has worked great so far and hasn't required them to own the weapons themselves

emanresu A

Wordle 256 3/6

🟨⬛🟨⬛⬛
⬛🟩🟨⬛⬛
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

Radvylf Programs

If anything, Ukraine is a great example of why the 2nd amendment is bad

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms Though I think some of the comments on your question are pointing at the "most effective" part as the unclear/subjective part. The FTL/radar question doesn't ask for "best" or "most effective," it asks for "working," which is arguably a clearer standard for judging answers.

emanresu A

@RadvylfPrograms I've had three people leave class this week because a family member tested positive for covid.

@RadvylfPrograms Oof yeah

Radvylf Programs

19:09

@emanresuA ?

emanresu A

Never mind, misread that. irrelevant.

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms Interesting point!

emanresu A

@RadvylfPrograms ಠ_ಠ

Radvylf Programs

And it also puts Ukraine, a country which has been engaged in a (smaller scale) war with a regional superpower for years, on the same level as the US, which has a massive army, nuclear weapons, and two neighbors (neither of which pose any military threat to us)

emanresu A

@RadvylfPrograms Do you have Halfwit?

Radvylf Programs

19:14

Oh, no I don't. I'll add it.

emanresu A

o/

Radvylf Programs

I got a very interesting wordle color layout today

🟨⬛🟨⬛🟩
🟨🟨🟨🟨🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

> On Monday, Ukraine's government called for Russia to be disconnected from the global internet. It sent a letter to ICANN, the US-based international non-profit that oversees the global system of internet domain names and IP addresses, with a plea.

"I'm sending you this letter on behalf of the people of Ukraine, asking you to address an urgent need to introduce strict sanctions against the Russian Federation in the field of DNS regulation, in response to its acts of aggression towards Ukraine and its citizens."

Oh good, help the Russians isolate their citizens from the rest of the world

Because what the world really needs right now is another authoritarian government restricting its citizens' internet access

I'm not a fan of the PSAT/SAT/ACT/other standardized tests' english sections

The answers are very clear if you're a native english speaker. You just read them all in context and see which 'sounds right'.

But someone learning english who can understand english perfectly fine but doesn't have that intuition of what "sounds right" is going to take way longer and likely get more wrong

Especially in a world where grammar checking is a part of basically every word processor and extensions can significantly futher that capability, english tests purely measure how good you are at taking english tests

Of course, that argument also applies to the math sections of those tests

I'm glad colleges are starting to not care as much about standardized tests ~~but I wish they'd wait a few years since I do really well on them~~

DLosc

19:29

@RadvylfPrograms It's been a while since I took any standardized tests, so I defer to your more recent experience. I was just wondering whether there might be some ways in which people who learned English would have an advantage in that they tend to understand grammar in a more thorough/academic way than many native speakers do?

Radvylf Programs

That's a great point, but it seems like that's rarely what the tests actually cover.

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms Word processors' grammar checking capabilities are still really bad. They routinely mark stuff incorrect that I've copy-pasted from (recent translations of) the Bible. TFW Microsoft Word thinks it knows better than a three-dozen-member translation committee with PhDs. :P

I think part of the problem is that the grammar checker is designed for prose text, so when something is written poetically, it gets confused sometimes.

Radvylf Programs

Nice job, Mr. Riggs

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms I'm gonna go out on a limb and say (E), none of the above

Radvylf Programs

19:52

68

Q: Stack Exchange Q&A access will not be restricted in Russia

Like so many people around the world, we are watching the tragic and unlawful invasion of Ukraine unfold. Several of the discussions on Meta and in conversations with us have raised the question of whether we will block access to Stack Exchange sites from IPs associated with Russia. Unless compel...

Ginger Industries

20:05

@RadvylfPrograms what inputs does the language form need?

Radvylf Programs

No clue.

We don't quite have the config stuff worked out yet

Or the procedure for uploading a language

Ginger Industries

I'm going to assume it will at least need a title and file upload

and probably a description etc

Radvylf Programs

I give it a 50/50 chance my bike is still there

If it is, I'll ride my bike home I guess

I've done some calculations using google maps and I've determined it would only take about a 5m deviation from my normal route to the busses to determine if my bike is still there, so it's relatively unlikely that I'll miss the bus twice today

As you can see my walk would be quite a bit farther than usual:

Blue being the normal route, red being the one that involves me walking to within a line of sight of my bike (green) then walking to the bus if it is indeed missing

Blue route is approx. 450 ft., while red route is 1500 ft.

Ginger Industries

20:23

I applaud your dedication in figuring that out

Radvylf Programs

Google My Maps is like MS Paint and MS Flight Simulator had an illegitimate child

Ginger Industries

ಠ_ಠ

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms are you aware the name of your school is already on your StackOverflow profile? (since you presumably blacked it out here)

Radvylf Programs

Wait it is lol

Ginger Industries

@RadvylfPrograms are you aware your Stack Exchange profile is still using the white PFP

pxeger

20:28

@GingerIndustries his Code Golf pfp is as well, actually

Ginger Industries

I need to change my chat bio

pxeger

CMQ: regular Haskell users, which packages would you like to see available on ATO?

Bgil Midol

as many as possible

same goes with python

@GingerIndustries same

Unrelated String

20:44

i need to have a chat bio

DLosc

21:09

I think Radvylf needs to change his chat bio, unless he's that excited about AoC 2022 already /s

Bgil Midol

Any feedback?

Ginger Industries

CMQ: What does /s mean?

Unrelated String

end of sarcasm

it's like an html close tag

Ginger Industries

ah

wait

@UnrelatedString if you can do that

then that means

</chat>

Adám

@GingerIndustries in which language?

Ginger Industries

21:17

@Adám hey

the chat is over

no more speaking

Adám

21:31

@GingerIndustries Hi.

Radvylf Programs

Neighbor cat is still alive and I have snuck food to him

Unrelated String

am i
missing some context here

Radvylf Programs

yes

This is the relevant conversation

Oddly, he seemed to be scared of either the food, or me (as soon as he noticed the food)

I tried dried kibble stuff first, and he'd lick my fingers but wouldn't eat it. Then, I tried some canned stuff and he gladly ate it but would run away and hide under a car after every few bites.

Unrelated String

ah

oh yeah that

wish you and him (?) the best of luck

AviFS

22:00

@DLosc In principle, if you've learned grammar, certainly. In practice, grammar doesn't get taught in (American) schools much anymore. Everyone I know did it mainly by what sounded right, except the non-native speakers.

caird coinheringaahing

22:12

@AviFS Personally, I disagree with the concept of grammar - so long as you are understood, who cares how you say things?

Neil

hey, when did they move deleted answers to the end of the list instead of sorted with other answers?

caird coinheringaahing

70

Q: Revisiting changes to answer sorting menu: better use of space, moving menu into a dropdown, ascending/descending sort options, clearer descriptions

Updated Feb 9, 2022: Added an additional question in the Feedback section Last week, I posted proposed changes to the answer-sorting menu. The changes I originally suggested were easy things we could do to make the existing implementation incrementally better, but they weren't the result of us t...

discussion answers sorting announcements

Radvylf Programs

Ooh

> Sweden Armed Forces: Russian fighter jets violated Swedish airspace

WWIII when

I want an end to the trilogy already

AviFS

Couldn't agree more. And a funny tidbit. We spoke Spanish at home growing up, and it was my first language. I'm conversationally fluent and literate. But of course my Spanish hasn't developed far beyond the basic level we spoke at home. And without formal education, it's not past a child's basic pre-rigor intuition for a language.

That means that whenever I’ve tried to help friends with their Spanish homework, and I go off what so obviously sounds “right,” I’m often wrong. And I have absolutely no idea when my intuition will be correct for that stuff. Something can sound painfully wrong to…

user

> Ooh

AviFS

22:18

Now it feels like my anectode contradicted me and I’m not sure what conclusion to draw. On the one hand, yes our intuition is learned and changes the more exposure you have. On the other hand, tons of people around the world, now and forever, speak their native tongue without ever having any formal education. And they lead their lives never missing the intuitive distinction between the “right” way and the wrong “way.”

Very often they all say it the “wrong” way and they communicate perfectly. By definition, if everyone has to learn a rule to do something correctly, then the wrong way was th…

user

This isn't entertainment, we could very possibly get involved in a world war

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ooh, based on the bit I just wrote, I think you'll find we're in agreement, haha.

Radvylf Programs

@user The Ooh was the sorting thing

A --- probably would've made that clearer I guess

user

@DLosc The SAT's grammar-related questions don't actually get very technical, although those who learned English in an academic sort of way would still have an advantage. I don't think a lot of people learn that way, though (at least, I and most of the people in my French classes didn't)

@RadvylfPrograms Oh lol

AviFS

@RadvylfPrograms Ooh, message me!

Unrelated String

22:22

@cairdcoinheringaahing that is the (descriptive) concept of grammar

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, but that's descriptivism, and that's played out

New Posts

0

Q: Appease the Picky Eater

Your friend Jack is a picky eater. He only likes certain foods, and he only likes to eat a certain amount of them each day. Despite this, Jack has very strict calorie and macronutrient goals that he strives to meet with his diet. To complicate things further, Jack's cravings change day by day, an...

matrix linear-algebra

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Grammar is a thing that exists whether or not you want it to be prescriptive. We should definitely put looser rules on it, but we can't just say it's not a thing

Besides, you can't do away with language proficiency tests because then you can't tell (semi-)objectively that someone is at least coherent in some language (although a good chunk of the SAT is about how good you are at doing the SAT and not how good you are at English or math)

Radvylf Programs

But let the language proficiency tests do that, not the SAT

user

Yeah, the SAT is not very well done, and very sketchy too

Unrelated String

22:28

the sat is just a shitshow all around

Radvylf Programs

The whole concept of being able to assign a number to someone saying how successful they'll be academically is a concept basically taken straight from eugenics

user

My parents made me go to an SAT prep thing (please don't judge me). They didn't teach me anything, and I didn't feel like I learned anything, but I just did a ton of practice tests and my score increased by like 300 points

Radvylf Programs

Yeah. If you can practice a test and then do better on it, it pretty clearly isn't anything close to an objective measure of whether or not you should be able to go to a particular college.

user

@RadvylfPrograms I think the problem here is people putting too much weight in SATs and other test scores. Tests and other semi-objective measures are definitely needed to see how good a student is at some subject, but acting as if your SAT score is the best measure of how good you are academically all-round is a bad idea

@pxeger Not a regular Haskell user, but Lambdabot imports (imported?) this stuff, some of which may need to be installed

Unrelated String

college admissions don't even do that much with the sat do they

lyxal

22:43

@SegFaultPlus4 no

Radvylf Programs

23:25

Man Amazon sure is enthusiastic about trying to sell me used golf balls

Why is that the first thing it came up with...

att

@AviFS Funny thing is, for some (many? idk) people it gets to the point where "you and me"->"you and I" is overzealously applied

lyxal

23:40

@RadvylfPrograms could be because of code golf

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms I was surprised by that assertion, so I did a little Wikipedia research. According to what I read there, there was a connection between eugenics and the notion of IQ testing. But it said standardized testing in general started with the civil service examinations in China, which were copied by the British in the 1800s and then spread to other countries from there. (TIL!)

Sources: 1, 2

@att Another point is that some of the prescriptive rules are based on wrong ideas about what English grammar should be, often trying to make it more like Latin or Greek instead of letting it be its own language. "Don't split an infinitive" and "don't end a sentence with a preposition" are two such.

user

@UnrelatedString I think admissions got more holistic because of COVID, but I've heard some colleges outright reject SAT scores below a certain threshold

DialFrost

ello

Unrelated String

i think most do have a threshold--whether they tell you or not--but it doesn't seem like they put much stock in how far past it you are

user

Oh, that's nice then

A part of me actually wants admissions and scholarships to be based entirely on grades and test scores, but that's because my essays were crap :P

Radvylf Programs

23:59

Announcement: RTO is now, at least for the forseeable future, dead. Due to technological limitations and a general lack of motivation, RTO and OISB will no longer receive updates and ongoing maintenance will be deprioritized.

DialFrost

RTO???

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