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07:00
I was trying to take two snippets which I though explained what they were, but they were longer than I thought
@AviFS It's specifically about functional programming. If you want to apply it to APL, IMO it should be named Array Pearls instead
@Adám What do you think of the Functional Pearl idea? Maybe one could be presented annually at the conference? Have you read any before?
@Bubbler 'Course. Name still pending!
@Bubbler Have you read any?
@AviFS I didn't know about them until now, so no. I'll have a look, but I'm a bit busy these weeks, as we're teaching APL to a bunch of people.
Oh nice! Well if you want me to recommend a few to skim through, let me know.
I've also been contemplating an "APL Cast" podcast that goes into "APL thinking".
07:06
@Anush oof
@AviFS For sure, please do. I was a bit lost looking at that list.
I've read a bunch, and there are a few in particular that I think are particularly representative+good, and a few that are particularly creative
@Adám Will do!
@AviFS I didn't know it exists either, but it might be helpful to identify what is lacking in existing articles on APL wiki (and also J wiki)
07:33
@Bubbler You left out THE thing!
The dfns!!!
And the comments are so nice and the programs so interesting
That's what I really want to read, but can never get into.
@AviFS "can never get into" - why?
Of course, the dfns are well-documented code, not articles. But that's precisely what's missing from them: ease-of-reading
Functional pearls are closer to those blogposts where they tell you what they're doing/why/what they're thinking, and then show you a piece of code
And slowly build up the whole thing
But always start with the naive approach and the simplest approaches
And then show you better ways to do it
Personally I don't find them hard to read, but I do believe better visibility with some more friendly explanation would certainly help
07:38
Similar to books like craftinginterpreters.com
And that python tutorial that walks you through making interpreters
@Bubbler It's not a narrative, though
What is the point of APL? I mean I get why jelly is fun but people talk about APL as something you might use in the real world. Why?
It's still code. Just documented code
That's different from going through the paces and seeing how/why it's developed
The naive implementation, and then what you can do differently
What part you start with, and in which direction you build
etc
The github repo for craftinginterpreters.com is also well-documented code. But I'd infinitely rather read the book
@Anush Because some companies actually use it
One I'd pay to read. The other you'd have to pay me to read
Actually, I did pay to read it :p
It came out in print at the end of last month!
@Bubbler but why?
07:41
My copy arrived 3 weeks ago!!
@Bubbler I mean when would it ever be a better idea to code in APL than another more readable/standard language?
@Adám For the future, did you mean flooding by talking a lot, or just those two copy/pasted segments?
@Adám Shoot! I thought it'd be a reply to the email I sent. I get lots of spam and sometimes miss messages if I'm not looking for them. Very sorry about that. It's not too late to do it?
I use Vyxal as my calculator
"Is APL a programming language?"
@PyGamer0 thanks
@emanresuA that is the link I pasted.... But with a no
"Once you get used to it, APL is more readable than more verbose languages [ citation needed ]" :-D
@PyGamer0 had you the paper I posted?
08:07
@Anush ?
@Adám Example: xpqz has the top 10 things he wishes he knew about APL from day 1
And 2/10 are about how to use RIDE
Including:
> RIDE: Shift-ctrl-backspace/return moves through your command history.
Which is great for two reasons. The first is that I didn't know that until now. Here I've been scrolling to find the right line and editing it there, then pressing return to run the edited one.
The second reason is that it's such a fundamental functionality of a REPL. Moving through history is the number one meta-command you want to run in a REPL. And certainly the meta-command you run most often, save for 'return' to run the line. And yet, it's bound to something super hard to press, super unintuitive, and not made at all discoverable by RIDE
That is, short of the thing in the upper right corner that gives you commands, which in itself has to be discovered
@PyGamer0 just above
Tbf, it's also in Preferences > Shortcuts. I don't know enough about UI design to know why those particular parts of the interface are so unhelpful. I just know that usually by skimming through the preferences or otherwise one should be able to get a sense of what's there and how to change it. And I know that I've looked through RIDE prefs a lot, and only ever found the Keyboard & Colors sections approachable
08:31
@AviFS One (9: Ctrl+Shift+Backspace) we have on our new tips page which is quite easily findable from the newest RIDE and the next IDE. The other point (10) is false.
@Adám Phew! Because I didn't even understand the second tip!
Where's the tips page?
Thanks a mil! I've def looked at that a few times before, but it doesn't seem to stick. Will bookmark and hope I remember!
Maybe we can pin it in the APLorchard a while?
@AviFS Btw, it is easy for people (including at Dyalog!) to forget other environments than their own:
> change that immediately to command-s
Eh, there's no "command" button on non-Macs!
Some questions are on topic both here and at SO. Where do you think you get better quality answers?
08:38
I'd go on SO and link to it here in TNB
The pool of people is just way bigger there
And we're not really set up for non-challenge questions, even though we do them every now and then
Eg they'll quickly get drowned out on our feed page and not recommended
Because there's no way a question like that can compete with the activity on a challenge question, which gets 20-500 answers
@Anush
@AviFS thanks. I have found the quality of some of the answers here to be amazingly high.
True, but my sense is we'll participate there. Whereas they won't participate here.
And they're the ones with the numbers & audience
Take fastest-code. Most of these seem on topic on SO but would you really get such good answers there?
But yeah, definitely less friendly and lower quality on average
@Anush Oh, then no. It depends what kind of question
That's more of a challenge
I feel the competition element encourages better answers
08:43
If it can be framed as a challenge, then here. If it's just a straight question with no gamification, then there. That's my two cents
@Anush Agreed
I agree too
:)
There was a question about computing the hafnian of a matrix here that seems to have the fastest code in the world
Faster than a paper published on the topic later on !
It was by someone called "miles" . Whoever that is
And the answers by Christian Sievers are just amazingly clever
@Anush No questions are on topic both here and on SO, at least in the same form
@Dudecoinheringaahing sure but sometimes the change of form can be slight
E.g. you can ask for the fastest code to compute something on SO
08:47
I'd argue that's not on topic for SO
@Dudecoinheringaahing they do close things quickly there :)
Lots of people post questions to SO. It doesn't mean they're on topic there. Any question on SO that asks "How can I speed up this code?" is more on topic on CR, not SO
CR is useless :(
It is interesting that we accept any challenge with an OWC, but basically only accept questions that are code golf
Technically, "how can I speed up this code?" is on topic here, under , but I don't think one's ever been posted
2
Q: Tips for Fastest Code challenges

hyper-neutrinoWhat general tips do you have for how to answer fastest-code challenges? Please post one tip per answer. The objective of these challenges is to make the program that will run in the least amount of wall-clock time given a specific set of computer specifications (based on who will be judging th...

@Dudecoinheringaahing I might do that myself!
ngn
ngn
08:53
@PyGamer0 where are you looking for it?
@ngn gitlab
What is OWC?
ngn
ngn
@Anush in what context?
@Dudecoinheringaahing there are tags on SO that seem to suggest it would be relevant there
@Anush If you do, remember that questions are also subject to our standard of quality. You should include a brief description of the challenge you're working on, and what you've already tried to speed up your code
@Anush Objective Winning Criteria
08:55
" we accept any challenge with an OWC, "
@Dudecoinheringaahing thanks
@Dudecoinheringaahing cool
@Anush Yeah, I suppose optimising code is probably the only area of overlap between us, SO and CR. I think that there are subtle differences tho. We typically require it to be in the context of a challenge, CR requires the specific code to shown, SO is (supposed to be) the "theoretical" side of it ("why does doing X make my code faster/slower?")
There's also the CS stack, which is even more theoretical than SO
All true
CS stack is also slightly useless
I am defining useless as a site where you spend hours making a question, post it, then nothing happens for a day
A definition for the impatient :)
We are one of the most active sites in the network in terms of actions done per hour, especially when you look at how few questions we get
@Anush one of my questions was asked here because I couldn't be bothered to write a program myself :þ (can you guess which?)
CMC : Given a list of k-permutations on a set S, output the Cartesian product S^k. e.g. 12 13 21 23 31 32 -> 11 12 13 21 22 23 31 32 33 (k = 2,S = {1, 2, 3}). Your solution must be O(|S|). Input and output should be ordered
You may assume list random access and insertion are O(1) operations (even though they obviously aren't)
09:30
@Adám Ctrl+click is the same as right click on Mac
@Anush goto CR
@Dudecoinheringaahing it's an awesome site
@pxeger no!
When you realise you have about a gigabyte of node modules
ngn
ngn
@PyGamer0 are you good with vimscript?
ngn/vim-apl is an orphan project looking for a new loving and caring owner :)
09:48
Ugh, ffmpeg takes soo long to install
It has like 20 billion dependencies
Ok
it's done
Now to install Gulp and Yarn
1200 packages? Come on...
73000 dependencies???
Another 85000????!!??!!?
It errors if you don't clone it???
10:09
@emanresuA Uh, ok? How is that relevant?
It's annoying because some things have ctrl-click configured to do different things as they were designed on windows.
and command-click doesn't work
@emanresuA But Ctrl+Click isn't used by Dyalog's interfaces, is it?
No, but it's used by other stuff
Then I'm confused. Why did you reply to my message?
Oh sorry
10:11
Oh, you meant to point out that others too are ignorant of platform differences?
I see. Right.
@ngn no :(
i have made a little plugin in it
10:36
hi @exedraj
nwjs is pain
@exedraj That is correct.
@emanresuA nwjs?
HTML-to-app thing
It has so many security vulnerabilities
CMQ: Favourite font?
CMQ: Favourite monospace font?
10:39
I just went from 2 issues to 13 issues.
@emanresuA you mean it?
I'm trying to install nwjs
It is pain
Ok, it appears I have to choose between 2 security vulnerabilites and 13.
I'll take the 2.
@emanresuA choose 13 :P
Anything but Times New Roman
It's the default font for HTML for some reason
@emanresuA No, it is the default for various browsers on Windows.
No connection to HTML.
@emanresuA you can make your own browser and set the default font to Soege UI
10:53
@emanresuA You can set your current browser to default to whatever you want.
Noto Serif >>>
Ok, I was doing all that to hack together an app version of shapez.io without paying for it
It's really nice having it at 30fps instead of 5
0
Q: Distances between keys on a QWERTY keyboard

pxegerInspired by this video by Matt Parker The distances between the letter keys of a QWERTY keyboard are somewhat standardised. The keys are square and both the horizontal and vertical spacing are 19.05mm (so if there were no gaps between the keys, their side lengths would be 19.05mm), and the three ...

@Neil ^
@NewPosts The average of APL is J.
7
10:56
Finally
> Of course you live in a universe with Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle in which you cannot truly know that the keys are that far apart.
Classic pxeger
11:28
Mm, I do love my indez=x.html file..
12:11
@PyGamer0 Fixedsys
12:40
@pxeger Thank you
@Dudecoinheringaahing APL385 Unicode is not far off from that.
@PyGamer0 Droid Sans Mono
13:26
Aug 18 at 19:43, by user
Actually, I live in a 2D universe where nothing moves and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle doesn't apply
@user Wouldn't it still apply, just only for the 3 dimensions rather than 4?
> where nothing moves
(but how do you know nothing moves?)
@Adám Maybe, but my universe just happens to not have that
Other 2d universes might
@pxeger I AM GOD
Ah, I guess if nothing moves, there's no time dimension.
@user [citation needed]
No, the second dimension is tine
@Adám (user and user, 2021)
:p
ngn
ngn
13:33
@Adám our lord @user exists outside of spacetime :P
Heard at the psych ward:
Patient A: I'm the messiah!
Psychiatrist: Who told you that?
Patient A: God did.
Patient B (from the other end of the corridor): No I didn't!
ngn
ngn
:)
14:10
@ngn although i can try
ngn
ngn
@PyGamer0 if you want it, it's all yours, just tell me what link to put in place of the old project
@Adám that sounds like an old joke
@ngn wdym?
@PyGamer0 ¯\_(⍨)_/¯
ngn
ngn
@PyGamer0 i assumed you'd want to put it under https://somegithostingservice.com/PyGamer0/vim-apl?
@ngn yes i am in the process of doing that
@ngn here done!
14:17
@PyGamer0 You need to update the readme. Should I update APL Wiki to point to your fork?
@Adám yes
Done.
So, @ngn I guess you're officially out of the APL business now. You didn't even participate in the competition this year, did you?
ngn
ngn
@PyGamer0 thanks, i updated the readme at codeberg
@Adám i officially left the apl business almost 5 years ago
@ngn ok time to learn vim script tmrw
 
1 hour later…
Please enjoy this bad meme (yes I know I'm missing pronouns and misusing the template)
nice resolution
I don't even know where I downloaded it from
Anyone know where to find a template of the two dog dust storms but with one of those shibes with a baseball bat going bonk at the end?
15:52
After 2.5 weeks and 53 commits, my golfing language can now add three numbers!
🎉🎉🎉
@pxeger How does it take those three numbers?
on the stack
why'd you ask? you want it tacit? lol
As a single list item on the stack or as three consecutive stack items?
3 items
map is far too complicated to type-check at the moment
15:55
So you have a separate operation to sum the top 3 items?
@pxeger how long until you can add 4?
@Adám no, two add instructions in a row
@rak1507 you can do that with three instructions in a row!
what is the code for that, or is that a spoiler
@pxeger So why were you so excited about three?
maybe being able to do more than 1 instruction?
15:57
yes
it has a... complicated syntax
but it's a stack based golfing language??
Well, now we know enough to congratulate you. 🥳
lol
I know it sounds really stupid but when the language is revealed you'll see how stupidly complicated it is
but is it golfy?
all for a 10% edge over Jelly [citation-needed]
yes
15:59
ooooohh
interesting
@pxeger That's pretty significant.
I can't guarantee it will reach anywhere near that
but with the right builtin selection, I'm hoping it can
imo jelly with better builtins could get 10% over jelly anyway probably
I never said 10% better, it could be 10% worse :þ
16:19
thinking to make a repo called esolangs to hold all sorts of dumb esolangs i make
@rak1507 currently,
but that will change
How much do you like eating hot dogs dipped in orange juice with a sprinkle of pencil shavings on top?
fuck you
in "literate" mode, it's 12
very readable, as you can see lol
@rak1507 That's my intention with Jam :P
@user lmao
16:27
Armed with my Jelly corpus, 3 years of experience using Jelly and the Jelly source code, all I need to do now is stop procrastinating. But I'll get started on that tomorrow
@Dudecoinheringaahing I'll wait to choose my builtins until you've done with your experience, so I can beat Jam too lol
@user Personally, I prefer crushed up pencil graphite instead of shavings
Gives it a nice gritty mouth feel that just can't be beat
Mmm, I prefer gravel a day after it's rained
2
@user The slugs add a nice flavour
Indeed, and I love how they just melt in your mouth (has to be a certain kind of slug, though)
16:32
@user Although the crunchiness of the slugs is a bit off-putting, I wish they were squishier
For a heavier meal, pennies and dimes do quite nicely
@Dudecoinheringaahing Hmm, is that a UK slug thing? American slugs are quite squishy, and the texture is great
@user Yeah, slugs need a license to exist here, and the government is very anti-slug, so they've taken to disguising themselves as snails
ngn
ngn
those are actually tasty
the problem is they shink quite a lot when cooked
CMP: Favorite non-plant organism to eat?
I quite like shrimp
ngn
ngn
16:47
@user too much choice
Nori (海苔) is a dried edible seaweed used in Japanese cuisine, made from species of the red algae genus Pyropia including P. yezoensis and P. tenera. It has a strong and distinctive flavor, and is often used to wrap rolls of sushi or onigiri (rice balls). The finished dried sheets are made by a shredding and rack-drying process that resembles papermaking. They are sold in packs in grocery stores for culinary purposes. Since nori sheets easily absorb water from the air and degrade, a desiccant is needed when storing nori for any significant time. == History == Originally, the term nori was generic...
> Classification is currently disputed
hrrrrmmm
Agaricus bisporus is an edible basidiomycete mushroom native to grasslands in Europe and North America. It has two color states while immature – white and brown – both of which have various names, with additional names for the mature state. A. bisporus is cultivated in more than seventy countries and is one of the most commonly and widely consumed mushrooms in the world. == Names == When immature and white, this mushroom may be known as common mushroom, white mushroom, button mushroom, cultivated mushroom, table mushroom, and champignon mushroom (or simply champignon). When immature and brown,...
are you vegetarian Adám? Or are you deliberately choosing the non-obvious non-plant foods?
Neither, I'm just answering truthfully.
16:55
oh ok lol
I've never even heard of these lol
the second one is just a "normal mushroom" to me
@user Seriously, "sushi" and "mushrooms"?
The only meat I eat is chicken, salmon, beef, and bacon
@user either of them?
16:56
@Adám Nori is sushi?
it's the wrapping
@pxeger Oh I thought it was some special mushroom
ngn
ngn
that's shiitake
i was about to say, i would definitely not characterize nori as reminiscent of mushrooms
No, your take is shit!
:P
16:57
Apparently, what is commonly known as "champignon" in various European languages, doesn't have a normal name in English ⍨
does French "champignon" mean something different to English "mushroom"?
Yes, the French word is a specific type of mushroom.
huh
@Adám apparently, champignon is actually an English word
@pxeger Yeah, and specifically means that one I linked to, but the word isn't commonly used.
And the French word does in fact mean a generic mushroom in French too, but is commonly used for that specific one.
So strange. Danish uses champignon to mean that one, and has a completely separate word (lit. "sponge") for generic mushrooms.
ngn
ngn
17:03
@user mouse (we're supposed to be catpeople this week)
4
lol
17:15
CMP: Favorite plant organism to eat?
ngn
ngn
@Adám distilled malted grain
@Adám cherry tomatoes
tomato cherries
@ngn So, you what, freeze it, so you can eat it?
ngn
ngn
@Adám eating or drinking, it all ends up in the same place :)
17:27
@user steak
@Adám strawberries or something (are they a plant? yes.. surely)
@Adám I'm bananas about bananas :P
ngn
ngn
most somethings are not plants
Yes they are--plants by the government :P
it's a tough decision, most fruits are nice, I'm not the biggest fan of veg though
17:29
@Adám mangoes
Kensington Pride is by far the best variety of mango btw
most of my favourite things to eat comprise both plants and non-plants though
CMP: favourite combination of plant and non-plant things to eat?
steak + chips or ice cream + fruit
@pxeger blackberries / bananas / ... with ice cream
@pxeger Same.
@JohnDvorak good choice
ngn
ngn
this gastronomical theme is going out of control
cmp: favourite dish from your national or more local cuisine
17:41
not strictly local but wienerschnitzel ain't bad... of course, we don't call it that here :D
@ngn haggis is pretty decent
ngn
ngn
@JohnDvorak if you're in vienna, i guess it would be called just schnitzel :)
but really, fried slab of pork with a random selection of dried herbs works well enough for sustenance for me, thank you
ngn
ngn
@rak1507 i was hoping you would say that :)
well, there's not much other choice tbh, I'm not the biggest fan of deep fried mars bars
17:43
Ah, something local - actually good beer
A local beer aggregator has recently opened shop in the mall right next to us. And they have a great selection.
I'm not old enough for whisky yet so I can't comment on the drinks
Scotch whiskys are a very varied thing as well :P
I'm sure you'd know all about it
Oh, and nut brandy is delicious
@rak1507 I actually drink more bourbon than whisky
Scotch is expensive :P
17:46
that's what student loans are for
no
but I do see your point
@ngn I don;t really know any "local" cuisines :P
National, I love a good sausage and chips, with gravy, salt and vinegar :P
ngn
ngn
@JohnDvorak what do you actually call it, by the way?
cutlet in triple wrapping
@pxeger Probably a good sushi then.
18:10
CMQ: Second favourite programming language.
Either Python or Add++ probably
Tough one, either python or APL/k (I think haskell is my favourite for now)
18:45
(This is super late, and others have said a lot of what I'd like to say, but:) Yes, all the time. For 3 of the 4.5 years I've been here, I basically didn't post at all, mainly due to burnout -> boredom -> leaving. Since I came back and started being active again, I regularly experience mild amounts of "block" (as I like to call it), where I just cannot post, or bother to open TIO, etc. It just stops being fun for me. And then, I take a bit of a break, piss about in here, just browse the site for a couple of days etc. - all the stuff everyone else has said.
Tbch, one of the reasons I like doing tag wiki edits more than anything else is that they're a "quiet" action, especially if you're 20k+. You can sort of take your time, and do them at your own pace, and they're mostly about stuff you care enough about to write a tag wiki
Morning!
(or afternoon I guess, it's way later than I thought :p)

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