The Nineteenth Byte

user41805

05:06

@hyper-neutrino i asked something similar to ais523 a while back, chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/240?m=52007337#52007337

@LeakyNun you think that's turing complete?

PyGamer0

@lyxal does vyxal support scientific notation?

lyxal

no, not yet at least

PyGamer0

05:26

@lyxal do you plan on making an IDE for vyxal (with syntax highlighting; code linting; autocompletion etc.)?

hyper-neutrino

how much autocompletion can a golfing lang even have lmao

lyxal

@PyGamer0 syntax highlighting is already done, autocompletion is already implicit and code linting doesn't seem that helpful

@RedwolfPrograms the random question userscript isn't showing up

hyper-neutrino

also linting golfed code sounds a) like a pain to develop and b) like a pain to deal with

Redwolf Programs

I mean half the goal for a golfing language is to reduce the wasted information as much as possible, which is what makes autocompletion possible in the first place

@lyxal Can repro, just a sec

A username

Repro'd

Also it would be nice if you could make it a styled hyperlink so you can open in new tab...

Redwolf Programs

05:31

Random Question 1.5.1

@Ausername But you can. Control clicking is implemented.

lyxal

good

A username

Oh

I is on mac

hyper-neutrino

a) then just cmd click b) i think mac still accepts ctrl

@RedwolfPrograms doesn't seem to work for me (FF)

Redwolf Programs

:|

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms works on my end

A username

05:32

ctrl+click = right click on mac

hyper-neutrino

then cmd-click

A username

That does nothing

hyper-neutrino

lol wut

A username

(different)

hyper-neutrino

guess you just have to right click + open in new tab

Redwolf Programs

05:33

@hyper-neutrino Any errors?

hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms nope

A username

@hyper-neutrino status-norepro (I is firefox)

Redwolf Programs

Odd. Did it work before?

hyper-neutrino

didn't have it installed until now

Redwolf Programs

Hmm. Are you on the homepage?

A username

05:34

O

hyper-neutrino

where is it supposed to appear? also yes

Redwolf Programs

By the active/new/hot/...

hyper-neutrino

wait what

okay nvm i'm just stupid then

i could've sworn it was on the left sidebar

Redwolf Programs

There's a sidebar one too

hyper-neutrino

bruh

A username

05:35

hyper-neutrino

okay never mind it works fine

A username

hyper-neutrino

yeah i had the sidebar one on chrome >:-/

PyGamer0

CC (Chat challenge {might be hard}): Take one of your esolang and rewrite it in C. It is hard but not impossible. Whoever completes this will get 150 brownie points.

Redwolf Programs

Doesn't seem particularly fun :p

Bubbler

05:41

@PyGamer0 S10K: void main(){for(int i=0;i<10000;++i)printf("S");}

PyGamer0

@Bubbler nice

Redwolf Programs

Oh, I didn't know you invented the legendary S10k :o

:p

hyper-neutrino

wasn't it made just to test TIB?

Bubbler

Yeah, I made it up for TIB, but it is a "language" after all :P

hyper-neutrino

what computational class /s

A username

05:43

DSO has s10k

Bubbler

uncomputable /s

Redwolf Programs

It's quite clearly TC

3

PyGamer0

@RedwolfPrograms how?

Redwolf Programs

It has loops because you can push the button multiple times

hyper-neutrino

@PyGamer0 int main(){} - the like 3 language repos i have on github that are totally empty

@RedwolfPrograms lmao

PyGamer0

05:44

@hyper-neutrino what about yuno?

A username

@hyper-neutrino int main();?

hyper-neutrino

@PyGamer0 why would i reimplement yuno a third time

@Ausername ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i am not good with C

A username

10 hours ago, by Wezl

it's for javascript awareness month :P

Redwolf Programs

Writing any golfing language in C is like writing an essay with your own blood in 72pt font

4

PyGamer0

@hyper-neutrino why not

hyper-neutrino

05:45

just used it for my cs course

A username

The cleverest rickroll

hyper-neutrino

@PyGamer0 also again, writing raw C itself is for masochists

@Ausername not really, a simple hover still makes it obvious

Redwolf Programs

What's the padding supposed to do? Do some browsers hide that it's a rickroll?

hyper-neutrino

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ my userscript doesn't detect it

but my userscript is like 3IQ so a 4IQ rickroll is enough to thwart it

A username

@hyper-neutrino Go to the context of the discssion, and look at Wezl's PFP

Also any feedback? #2 might be posted, if good...

hyper-neutrino

05:49

as far as rickrolls go, i guess it's reasonably clever, which isn't saying much

Bubbler

@Ausername Vyxal thing looks good to me

A username

Ok

I'll just let one or two people look some more before I post

Redwolf Programs

I just 'roll'd myself trying to test an anti-rickroll script :|

A username

Use mine

PyGamer0

@Ausername ha u didnt roll me

i saw the link using the ancient hoveer using mouse method

@lyxal WHAT

A username

05:56

Nice try

PyGamer0

@Ausername wdym

A username

Wait was that not a rickroll?

PyGamer0

NO

A username

Just how long is the program you

PyGamer0

i was asking about vyxal

A username

05:57

're writing

Wait you don't use Vyxal

it's definitely a rickroll

PyGamer0

@Ausername i am trying to learn

lyxal

@PyGamer0 no.

A username

Then what were you linking?

lyxal

@PyGamer0 I'm not clicking that

A username

And why a URL shortener

PyGamer0

05:58

@Ausername vyxal TIO

A username

@lyxal it's definitely a rickroll

PyGamer0

@Ausername its too long

*why are we arguing over a vyxal tio link

A username

Because it's not

@lyxal BTW deltas are backwards

hyper-neutrino

look, rickrolls aren't even that funny, please stop overusing them. they're fine in moderation but don't make me bring back the old rickroll rules

PyGamer0

@hyper-neutrino this room had rickroll rules?

A username

06:00

(negated

PyGamer0

this is a bob roll though

hyper-neutrino

not specifically against rickrolls. but they are by all definitions noise, and users who generate too much noise over meaningful content have been kicked and even suspended network-wide (because we can't suspend someone from just one room even if we wanted to)

this room's current state is pretty satisfactory overall. just would like to keep it that way :p

A username

@lyxal Plz disable george

its brokemn

Or nor

lyxal

@Ausername no

@Ausername heh, they probably have been for a while

ais523

06:29

@user41805 sorry, I must have missed the question back then; the original proof used "the tape head visits one of the cells whose location is in this geometric progression more than once", but I eventually managed to simplify it to "the tape head moves left of its starting location"

in fact, you can actually make it halt properly just by using a half-infinite tape and halting when it falls off the end

@PyGamer0 I think some of my esolangs were written in C, although I usually use Perl, and have been using Rust for some lately

and many, I didn't implement at all, because thinking about the language is more interesting than programming in it

AviFS

@ais523 Hey ais523!!

ais523

@AviFS it turns out that you can read TNB without JavaScript enabled (via using the transcript), just not post there

and I have JavaScript off by default in general, and don't want to make an exception for here unless I need to post something

so mostly, I just read rather than posting

(and I don't read everything nowadays; I used to, but activity here has gone up by a factor of 6 or so over the last couple of years for reasons I don't understand and it's no longer sensible to keep up with it)

AviFS

That does make sense, but that's still pretty neat! I've never heard of people turning off js though

ais523

it makes the Internet so much less annoying

AviFS

@ais523 Really? That is surprising

@ais523 And webapps not funcitonal, no?

ais523

06:36

I also have cookies off by default; that makes it more annoying but that's the sort of person I am

@AviFS indeed, but most pages shouldn't need JavaScript to do what they do

I have a separate browser with JS enabled for when I need to use one (that's what I'm doing right now, using a secondary browser)

AviFS

Makes sense, interesting strategy. I'll have to try it sometime!

ais523

btw, if everyone had JS disabled (also video and audio tags, like I do), then rickrolls wouldn't exist because they wouldn't work

AviFS

@ais523 Not trying that one!

ais523

I have never successfully been rickrolled, for this reason; YouTube just doesn't work in my primary browser (and nor do its competitors)

AviFS

@ais523 That's supposed to be a good thing?

:P

I may or may not have a rickroll easter egg in one of my github projects in dev right now, haha

But it's just a hyperlink, why shouldn't it work?

ais523

06:40

because it goes to a youtube page that doesn't load due to there being no JS or audio or video

AviFS

I forgot about this interview

ais523

I guess you could link to a text version of the lyrics but that isn't that interesting

AviFS

Ah, good point

ais523

I also used to have a policy of not following links in chat (originally IRC); I forget the reason, though (I don't think it was related to rickrolls)

I even set my client to delete links from inbound messages altogether

AviFS

By the way, you may be slightly dismay to find out I took over this challenge with one of your ~~less interesting~~ wonderful languages!

ais523

06:42

this probably isn't a good idea and I don't know what I was thinking at the time; there was a reason, but it probably wasn't a good reason

AviFS

Can you guess which one I used without scrolling down?

ais523

I guessed which one you used from the URL

although, I'd seen the answer in question before

AviFS

Cheater!

I'm slightly horrified I just got:

> Enthusiast - Visit the site each day for 30 consecutive days. (Days are counted in UTC.)

ais523

even so, most of my esolangs are deterministic

if I ever got that badge I would delete my account

although I'm a bit extreme in that regard

AviFS

And it's only a silver badge? What's gold-worthy-- a year?!

hyper-neutrino

06:45

100 days

ais523

that badge has caused way more trouble than it's worth

with people trying to automate it, then getting upset that their automated badge progress is getting detected and zeroed

and, there being no way to get rid of it (short of deleting your account), so you're basically advertising the fact that you've put unhealthy amounts of attention into Stack Exchange

hyper-neutrino

badges as a whole, IMO, are just a somewhat interesting gimmick that usually ends up causing more trouble than its benefits or at best just not being that interesting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

still don't get the point in Peer Pressure

ais523

my question complaining about badges on meta is at -26

fun fact: I set my badge tracker on meta.se to Peer Pressure to advertise the fact that I don't have it

(for whatever reason, your progress on the currently tracked badge is public)

AviFS

I didn't even know it existed, and now I wish it didn't exist.

It's rude.

ais523

same thing on codegolf.se, with Supporter (I can't upvote because that needs 15 rep)

AviFS

06:49

It's not that bad, though, I think. It becomes like checking your email after a while.

And I'll definitely stop all of a sudden with no warning, and not touch the site for over a year. I go through phases like that...

ais523

checking your email manually can actually ruin peoples' lives, it triggers the same part of your brain that gambling does ("will I have a new email? no, not this time") so you can spent hours doing it over and over again if you aren't careful

this can be fixed by using an email client that notifies you when you have a new email, and just turning the notifications on and off depending on whether you want to check email or not

that way there's no incentive to check it manually

AviFS

I know, I agree. That sort of behavior is really bad

The worst is things that ding all the time so you think you have something, but most of the time you don't... Discord

Yes, I know you can mute them, but there's always a few that escape

And some group pings are meaningful and others aren't

ais523

due to an interesting misconfiguration, the bug report email address for a game I work on pinged everyone on the discord server for discussion of the game, even though global pings were turned off

that was interesting the first time it happened

(I don't use Discord, but observed this from the other side of an IRC bridge)

sites which ping on @ signs should probably not ping on them if they're in the middle of an email address :-P

PyGamer0

wait hyper is playing LoL?

pxeger

CMC: program producing the largest finite output; no byte may be used more than twice

AviFS

07:04

Hypothetical: If you can write a self-interpreter in a language, does that give you some lower bound on its computational complexity?

Do we know it's eg. at least a pushdown automata?

ais523

if the language is sufficiently low-powered it can sometimes have a self-interpreter more or less by accident

like, the language which is "ignore the program and do nothing" (I forget what it's called, it's probably been created multiple times by now)

I also think there's an HQ9+ variant with a "self-interpreter" command

so no, having a self-interpreter doesn't guarantee any particular level of computational power

(actually, I think that HQ9+ variant also has a command that is documented to make the language Turing-complete, but there's some doubts as to whether it actually does; the documentation for the command is literally "makes the language Turing-complete")

I guess there are three main branches of esolang design nowadays: on CGCC we write esolangs primarily for the purpose of using them; many of my esolangs, I write primarily for the purpose of proving things with them; and there are people who write esolangs as a philosophical experiment into what programming is

(Baby Language is in the third category, incidentally)

hyper-neutrino

@PyGamer0 I don't see how this is either surprising or notable.

user41805

@user41805 oops forgot to link to ais's previous response, starts here chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/52024784#52024784

ais523

oh, I did remember to answer it last time

user41805

@ais523 you did reply then, in linking now to hyperneutrino i didn't realise that your response didn't immediately follow in the transcript

ais523

07:17

I guess it's a good thing the two answers are consistent with each other!

user41805

ninja'd

caird coinheringaahing

@ais523 I have many other ways to advertise that I spend an unhealthy amount of time here, I don't need to worry about Fanatic :P

@ais523 I always find low voted MSE questions interesting, especially the reactions of a few specific users there who feel like they have to comment on everything

ais523

I think I've made no secret of just how much I hate Stack Exchange

it's a major contributor towards me not being on CGCC much

user41805

i ended up hiding vote counts and the rep change notification to stop my obsession with them, which mostly worked

caird coinheringaahing

It's a shame that there isn't really a golfing site that has the same flexibility and community that you get here. Codidact is trying, but it's really not very active and I dislike their chat system

ais523

07:27

@user41805 hmm, I wonder if that's a better or worse approach than community-wiki-ing every post?

caird coinheringaahing

You do still have your reputation shown, and that will increase if you aren't CWing

ais523

the other reason to lock at 11, incidentally, is that I upvoted some posts before deleting my account, and after recreating it, I could upvote the same posts again

caird coinheringaahing

I suppose you could disable that as well (or hell, make every post "anonymous") if you really wanted

ais523

and I have no way of remembering which posts I voted on, so it's safest to not vote at all to avoid double-voting

caird coinheringaahing

@ais523 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also remember you saying that you disliked how SE pushed privileges on users?

user41805

07:30

@ais523 i never tried cw-ing, but i guess the cw post can still get upvotes. ideally though, i would also remove my username from being identified with the post, but the best i came up with was to switch to userXXXXX as my handle

ais523

@cairdcoinheringaahing pretty close to that, yes, it tries to badger you into doing moderation tasks when you get more rep

and on CGCC it tends to do that to people well before they understand what the tasks are for

user41805

@cairdcoinheringaahing i think when i tried that, i was already slowing down writing answers here, but anyways it's hard to notice changes to a 5 digit number

caird coinheringaahing

@user41805 Did you used to be Cow's Quack?

user41805

without the apostrophe, yes

caird coinheringaahing

@ais523 Yeah, I've noticed a few odd decisions in the review queues by users who have just gotten access from time to time

@user41805 Ah, I was trying to remember who you were because it's weird to see a user pop up with 14k who you don't recognise :P

ais523

07:32

my favourite example was a post that needed closing hitting HNQ before it got closed, someone posting an answer, and getting enough rep from that one answer (before the close happened) to vote to reopen

btw, if a mod modhammers a post closed, can it be reopened via voting? or does it need a mod? I can't remember

user41805

@cairdcoinheringaahing i tried that (hiding the username and repcount from each post), but turned it off after a while, it helps knowing the author's proficiency in say, looking for golfs in their solution

caird coinheringaahing

@ais523 Both work

ais523

modhammers is something else I hate about CGCC; I don't mind them existing, but the mod should have an option to not hammer

caird coinheringaahing

That's been asked for for years

ais523

as it is, getting a diamond basically means that you can't participate in many of the cleanup tasks because your vote would be binding and sometimes you aren't sure enough to be able to hammer things

err, SE in general, not CGCC in particular

caird coinheringaahing

07:35

Across the network actually. I think SE [status-declined] it a year or so back

user41805

@user41805 i guess this has had the unintended side effect of me forgetting to vote posts, even though the up/down-vote buttons are still visible.

ais523

sometimes I look through the vote counts on my answers, and despair at how bad at voting the voters at CGCC are

the evidence seems to be that more people see posts via HNQ than ever see them after they leave HNQ, so it's impossible for the people who know what they're doing to outvote the HNQ influx

caird coinheringaahing

@ais523 hyper and WW are both fairly active in the review queues (if they review something, it then leaves the queue and doesn't get additional reviews), and WW is pretty proactive in temp-closing unclear questions then reopening them after being clarified

ais523

right, that's the sort of situation where a modhammer is helpful

hyper-neutrino

@ais523 agreed - i don't like the implication that we always know what's best for the community

user41805

07:37

@ais523 in an ideal golfing, there should be no votes IMO. i tried to petition this opinion at codidact's code golf site, but it was met with disagreement

with the argument being they needed some way to arrange the answers by quality or something like that, but then again a Q&A site might not be the best place to host a code golf site

ais523

@user41805 my own thoughts about a dedicated site for golfing had the equivalent of SE/Reddit-style upvotes (but not downvotes), but didn't allow them anywhere the default sort order and de-emphasized them in the UI over objective metrics and Slashdot-style votes (where you vote a post down if you think it's gotten too high, even if you like it)

caird coinheringaahing

But also, we do have a pretty active user base who have moderation privileges, so we're able to very quickly "overrule" the mods on a lot of things if people believe they made a mistake. Or, if a mod isn't sure about closing/reopening, a comment stating their arguments and allowing others to make the decision is a good idea normally

ais523

my basic opinion on SE is "a Stack Exchange feature is only ever useful for something other than its intended purpose"

caird coinheringaahing

I do that if I'm not entirely sure two posts are dupes - I'll wait to close until 3/4 people agree that they are

ais523

this is probably an exaggeration, but not much of one

caird coinheringaahing

07:41

@ais523 Idk, I find the answer feature to only really be useful for one thing :P

ais523

@cairdcoinheringaahing what about the standard loopholes post on meta?

caird coinheringaahing

What about it?

ais523

the answers aren't answers in the traditional sense, and we have them separate so that we can vote on them separately

I guess the standard I/O methods post is an even better example

but none of the answers are a complete answer to the question, we split them up so that we could debate and vote on them individually

I guess the quest for tetris thing is another case where examples were used in a nonstandard way

caird coinheringaahing

I suppose they are answers, in the sense that if I asked "What should be a standard loophole?", I'd consider the responses as answers

ais523

that said, it's going to look very weird if and when a second answer ever gets posted (there is definitely scope for golfing but I'm not sure if anyone plans to work on it)

caird coinheringaahing

07:44

@ais523 Have you read this? It's a very interesting take on the motivation caused by rep/badges, written by a former SE employee

ais523

yes, but I can't remember what it said, I'll read it again

ah right, now I remember

fwiw, my experience with Stack Overflow is of asking questions that are too difficult for anyone to answer, so I feel like even in terrms of "let's get people with questions their answers quickly" it only really works at the low end

pxeger

CMM: should a (assumed idempotent) function expression that takes no arguments be interchangeable with a snippet of its return value? I ask this because In many languages, e.g. Haskell, there is no distinction.

ais523

we allow doing that in "write a program or function"-style things, as a substitute for the function

pretty much for the reason you say

but it may be that the language has to treat them interchangeably

user41805

didn't know about slashdot's voting style. but expanding further on my ideal golfing site, here's one idea i had been thinking over. it would be anonymised, so that really the only thing for any challenge in a selected language is its shortest answer written so far and when it was submitted, with maybe a community-written text attached to it. i guess it sacrifices ppcg's flexibility, but interesting to see how it would function
i don't know of any other golfing site that prioritises the golfed code over the submittors

ais523

I'd like to see a codegolf answers page as a list of answers, with comments attached to them by people (not necessarily the original submitter/submitters) clarifying or explaining or whatever

and ideally with essentially equivalent programs (e.g. differing only in variable names) merged

on anagolf, the answers are kept hidden for a week or so before showing them, so you often get lots of duplicate programs because multiple people independently come up with the same optimal solution

(but the lengths are shown, to give a target to aim for)

pxeger

07:52

@ais523 Well I can replace (Haskell) f x="abcdef"; f () with \x->"abcdef", so I can surely replace x="abcdef";x with "abcdef", but can I replace (Python) lambda:"abcdef" with "abcdef"?

user41805

yes that could also work, thus not hiding the diversity of approaches

ais523

@pxeger personally I think doing that's reasonable, I think it might be disallowed on CGCC though

ATaco

@pxeger What about side effects?

pxeger

> assumed idempotent

this would obviously not work for functions with side effects

caird coinheringaahing

@ais523 Personally, I dislike keeping answers hidden. When I get out golfed in Jelly, I'd much rather see what crazy trick you, Jonathan, hyper, Nick, Lynn, xigoi, etc. have used, rather than wait for a week or potentially never see

pxeger

07:57

but they don't necessarily have to be pure I think, e.g. lambda:open("file.txt") is interchangeable (because we generally assume the environment in which a submission is run doesn't antagonistically change it mid-execution)

ais523

@cairdcoinheringaahing well, the fun is in trying to find the trick yourself without having it spoiled for you

caird coinheringaahing

And if I haven't already answered, then I use the grad script leaderboard to see what answers are there, and if I think I can outgolf them, only then will I try. If I see "Jelly, 4 bytes - Jonathan Allan", I don't bother trying, because unless I spot something crazy, I'm not going to beat that

ais523

and you still get to look back after a week and find out if you couldn't figure it out yourself in that time

Razetime

i think it's a good thing to have duplicates and bad answers

caird coinheringaahing

@ais523 We have vastly different golfing abilities :P

ais523

07:58

I had a lot of fun trying to tie the leaders on anagolf in Perl back when I was learning to golf

it gives you the motivation to keep rearranging things, trying to squeeze out one last byte, because you know it's possible

meanwhile, I was looking at an arbitrary sample of Jelly answers to old questions, and in many cases the Jelly was clearly winning but was also improvable, people had stopped trying to squeeze out bytes at that point

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