The Nineteenth Byte

@AviFS SE has fully stopped support for the app in favour or the mobile site - which they're now slowly stopping support for in favour of the responsive design (which is the best of the three)

@JoKing Close to a week now, it's been asked about 5 times on MM already

StackMeter

1:54 PM

ok

@Lyxal what is %RR?

hyper-neutrino

15 mins ago, by hyper-neutrino

you go to wikipedia, click random article twice, and try to navigate from the first to the second only via clicking links

check the video description here

StackMeter

oh ok

oh god I got EZProxy and a Ukranian this is gonna suck

caird coinheringaahing

It appears to have been missed by an offline New Posts so:

0

Q: Community Ads for 2021

We're almost halfway through 2021, and in case you missed it, Community Promotion Ads are gonna be a bit different this time! TL;DR: submit and vote for ad proposals before August 2nd! What are Community Ads? Community Ads are community-vetted advertisements that will show up on the main site, or...

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Danger of using bots over feeds?

StackMeter

@cairdcoinheringaahing can I post a rickroll ad

hyper-neutrino

2:05 PM

no

take these ads seriously

StackMeter

ok

Adám

> ads can not be promoting products nor soliciting programmer time or resources for: knowledge sharing or collaboration tools for technologists, or for sites where ad buyers are targeting technologists.

Whoa, that's very limiting.

We can't have any ad for a site that has tech-oriented ads.

E.g. We can have an add for TIO, since it has ads for Dyalog and ZZZ Projects.

caird coinheringaahing

Tbh I'm approaching that with an "ask for forgiveness, not permission" attitude. Post any ads you want (serious ads), then if the CMs say "No, we're not hosting an ad for that", then we remove it

Adám

> Advertiser’s logo or brand name must be in the creative.

> Any creative using another company’s logo or name must provide proof of permission to use.

hyper-neutrino

@Adám will you still be reposting from 2020 or should I?

Adám

2:14 PM

@hyper-neutrino Go ahead. I'm a bit busy at the moment.

@hyper-neutrino But as a mod, are you allowed to knowingly break the ad rules?

hyper-neutrino

@Adám I think standards are probably higher for me. I'll repost some of the obviously fine ones like our sandbox; if anyone wants to post the other ones and is willing to follow the "ask for forgiveness" route, that's fine

caird coinheringaahing

How strict are you on the "non-compete" clause on ads? For example Try it online! contains advertising for the services that help it stay up (e.g. Dyalog APL), and it is incredibly widely used here, and has been one of the top Community adverts for the past ~5 years. By some reading of the non-compete clause, we wouldn't be allowed to advertise for that? — caird coinheringaahing 59 secs ago

Might as well get a finger on the pulse before doing so :P

hyper-neutrino

fair enough

Adám

According to a strict reading, ads for SO are prohibited :-)

hyper-neutrino

if anything, i can just have a chat with a CM in TL or our mod room if they really want to ban us from advertising TIO

StackMeter

2:17 PM

@hyper-neutrino got a run out: path is EZProxy -> website -> History of the WWW -> Glossary of Computer Science -> ASCII -> English -> Indo-European -> Balto-Slavic -> Slavic -> Ukrainian -> Ukraine -> Andriy Shevchenko -> Ukraine national football team -> Andriy Yarmolenko

caird coinheringaahing

math's just posted the TIO one - interesting that the description says "Ad free" :P

Adám

The wording is very strange. We can't have ads for sites that have ads for technologists, but we can have ads for sites for technologists as long as those don't have such ads themselves.

StackMeter

@lyxal got a 13 on the first try, with all the articles named

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing The day-to-day service is indeed ad-free, but the site isn't.

hyper-neutrino

@StackMeter EZproxy -> Library -> America Library Association -> United States -> Russia -> Ukraine gives you a shorter path for the first bit

StackMeter

2:20 PM

@hyper-neutrino this is reminiscent of me on codegolf

hyper-neutrino

wait, so the policy seems to imply i can't post the APL competition ad either?

(also idk the competition schedule for that so idk if that's even repostable)

Adám

@hyper-neutrino I don't see how that's implied.

> ads can not be promoting products nor soliciting programmer time or resources for: knowledge sharing or collaboration tools for technologists, or for sites where ad buyers are targeting technologists.

StackMeter

5 seconds after I post an answer the byte count has been shaved by 30%

Adám

The competition is not a product or resource for knowledge sharing or collaboration tools for technologists, nor does it have any ads.

hyper-neutrino

oh, wait, sponsorship lists aren't a problem. never mind

Adám

2:23 PM

@hyper-neutrino source?

@cairdcoinheringaahing VTC as unclear.

hyper-neutrino

forgot that TIO actually advertises dyalog and zzz and doesn't solely link them as sponsors

Adám

I so want to know what happens if the meta post gets closed as unclear.

hyper-neutrino

lol

StackMeter

umm, how does one get if/elif statements into a lambda?

hyper-neutrino

@StackMeter a if b else c

which can be shortened to b and a or c if a is always truthy

StackMeter

2:26 PM

does a if b elif c if d else e work

hyper-neutrino

also can do [c,a][b] if b will always be false/true (or 0/1) and c and a will not runtime error

@StackMeter no just do a if b else c if d else e

StackMeter

i see

hyper-neutrino

i forget if that's (a if b else c) if d else e or a if b else (c if d else e)

i believe ternaries are LTR

Adám

@hyper-neutrino TIO also advertises Digital Ocean, with Dennis getting a cut for referrals.

hyper-neutrino

ah, right.

@cairdcoinheringaahing do we still want JHT ad

caird coinheringaahing

2:32 PM

@hyper-neutrino We could do with more engagement in JHT, why not? :P

hyper-neutrino

alright :p althought as Adám points out technically SE advertises things targeting tech people so we can't advertise SE on SE

StackMeter

oh wow

I just somewhat revived a question

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino They didn't really think this through did they :/

hyper-neutrino

@StackMeter which one?

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah I am getting a bad impression from that clause

feels like they're trying to shut down any attempts to advertise codidact, tbh. maybe that's presumptious but........

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino What's worse is that this was the improved version ಠ_ಠ

Adám

2:34 PM

Ahem, the Esolangs site is explicitly for the knowledge sharing of technologists, no?

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino US tax due dates

hyper-neutrino

er, it would seem so

@StackMeter that challenge is 14 hours old how did you revive it

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino oops

@hyper-neutrino wait it's 14 hours old

hyper-neutrino

yes

hey @okie, been a while since I've seen you around here

pxeger

2:51 PM

I'd just like to interject for a moment: Inlining C code directly into Python, and other lispisms horrendously hacked in to CPython

hyper-neutrino

beautiful

pxeger

Similar: making 2 + 2 = 16

hyper-neutrino

3:48 PM

the community ads post clause has been slightly altered; it now says "sites where ad buyers are primarily targeting technologists." (emphasis mine indicating where the edit is)

tbh... not that much better

some positive news, another request has been status-completed (codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/23548/68942)

also yeah yaakov is known for his exceptional poetic skills, specifically haikus :P

pxeger

yeah lol

Peilonrayz

@hyper-neutrino I can't see any adds on TIO - disabled adblock too. Are the ads the major donors? But I'm not ruling out the possibility I could just be blind

pxeger

@Peilonrayz what's this got to do with TIO? I think HN was talking about SE community ads

hyper-neutrino

@Peilonrayz it's the major donors and also the DigitalOcean ad at the bottom

Peilonrayz

How strict are you on the "non-compete" clause on ads? For example Try it online! contains advertising for the services that help it stay up (e.g. Dyalog APL), and it is incredibly widely used here, and has been one of the top Community adverts for the past ~5 years. By some reading of the non-compete clause, we wouldn't be allowed to advertise for that? — caird coinheringaahing 2 hours ago

@hyper-neutrino Ah, ty. I can see them now, yeah... doesn't seem to help you :( I wonder if Rubberduck is in the same spot

hyper-neutrino

3:56 PM

if they do really see our TIO ad as a problem and remove it i'll... definitely have a chat with someone about it

that said, i doubt they will - dyalog, ZZZ, and DO all aren't competitors to SE

Peilonrayz

Yeah, I can't image TIO being problem. But the text is pretty ambiguous here :/

pxeger

Banning "sites where ad buyers are primarily targeting technologists" would totally defeat the point. Why would you advertise here if you weren't primarily targeting technologists?

Adám

@Peilonrayz Then please vote to close as unclear.

hyper-neutrino

well you can advertise sites that target technologists, but not sites that themselves have such ads

@Adám i don't think they have the rep for that

caird coinheringaahing

4:14 PM

@hyper-neutrino Yaakov does love his haikus :P

I've downvoted, because I'm disappointed about how this was rolled out. This should have been an easy win for y'all - the ability to advertise specific questions is a very good thing. However, y'all were given feedback on this idea a month ago, and you've all but ignored it, and the feedback you acted on has made it very vague (to the point where this has 2 close votes). I like Community Ads, they're probably one of the few systems of advertising I support. But I can't support the way you guys have done this — caird coinheringaahing 16 secs ago

2

New Posts

0

Q: Write a C++ demangler

If you have ever looked at an objdump of a C++ program, you have likely seen something like this: _ZN3foo3bar3bazI6sampleEE3quxvi3foo This is a C++ mangled symbol, which encodes the namespaces, classes, and function/template arguments, using the Itanium ABI. Specifically, it is for the following...

code-golf string parsing

caird coinheringaahing

Also, the ability to advertise specific questions would've been perfect for the Best Ofs, if it could be changed. We add the winning questions to the ads thread, vote them up to the threshold, then remove them after a month or so

hyper-neutrino

there's definitely legitimate reason for rejecting certain ads, I can understand SE not wanting to advertise its direct competition on its site, that makes sense. but community ads are supposed to be one of the few opportunities for us to actually get a say on things, and this just feels restrictive or like pre-emptively reserving the right to kick things arbitrarily, at least to me

Peilonrayz

@cairdcoinheringaahing Funny I was thinking such a policy would be great on CR... but when I read the post again... :(

caird coinheringaahing

TBH I think that if they commented underneath the ad nomination for something they actually opposed (e.g. someone nominated a hate group discord server, or whatever) that they wouldn't run that ad, fair enough. It's the vague pre-emptive "threat", so to speak, that makes it worse

hyper-neutrino

4:34 PM

I don't know how I never realized this but...

you know how protected questions can't be answered unless you've earned 10 rep, and the assoc bonus does not apply?

the new answerer box we're asking for is literally an identical mechanism - what makes that impossible? there's definitely something i'm missing, but... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino We have ~6 protected questions. We have 12000+ questions that any new user could answer

hyper-neutrino

eh that's true

caird coinheringaahing

They only have to use that rep checking code on a tiny fraction of questions. If we asked for it on all questions, the payload would be a lot higher

hyper-neutrino

i mean, to be fair, idk how they check assoc bonus

it feels like it should be easy but... maybe not, idk how they implemented it

4D4850

Hi. Please can people check out my KotH that's in the sandbox? the URL is codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2140/…

math

4:41 PM

@4D4850 Oh, yeah, hi, wanted to tell you that i think Mike's formula is wrong (not entirely sure of that). I messaged him but he didn't reply.

4D4850

@math the formula seems to make physical sense, in that it is defined in the square of possibilities I want it to be, and that the scores don't explode a bunch in the middle.

math

@4D4850 No overall it is right, but 0 0 as input must give 2, not 1. If you exchange R and P it will make it correct.

when 0 is defect not cooperate

if 0 is cooperate everything's fine

Adám

Only 2 more close votes needed to close this.

math

@4D4850 you see, when a and b is 1, or both are cooperating, it makes sense that they get 1 year of prison as you said in the math.stackexchange question.

New Posts

- codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/229920

Adám

4:50 PM

What does "soliciting programmer time" mean? Is it A) asking for programmer time or b) offering programmer time?

hyper-neutrino

From thefreedictionary it seems to be the former; "To seek to obtain by persuasion, entreaty, or formal application:"

i never understand people who literally have an SO account with posts and post general coding questions here, lol

Adám

> ads can not be (…) soliciting programmer time (…) for: (…) collaboration tools for technologists

It would seem to ban many community ads for projects on GitHub, when the ad asks the viewer to help build the tool.

4D4850

@math I think I made it so higher score is better? Honestly, I really should've included some documentation.

math

@4D4850 really? sorry, i thought that the number is the years of prison

4D4850

@math so that a score of two means that they get 1 year in prison, because 3-2=1. Thanks for keeping an eye out for possible problems though!

math

4:58 PM

@all I didn't understand what happened with the community ads and why closing it

It did work last year, didn't it

Adám

They are changing the system radically this year.

33

Q: The future of Community Promotion, Open Source, and Hot Network Questions Ads

Update: The ad collection posts on all of the sites listed below for the trial period have been posted. Submissions and voting will be open through August 2nd. Thank you for all the feedback — I tried to address most of it, and hope to be able to address some of the outstanding concerns (particul...

discussion advertising announcements community-promotion-ads

caird coinheringaahing

@math Community Ads used to be "Post an answer with an ad, we'll show those with +6 or more". Now, it's "Post an answer with an ad, we'll show those with +6 or more. So long as they meet our vague rules on what is allowed. And also, we aren't changing the ads after August 2nd until next year"

math

so wait, they're doing all this because of codidact???

caird coinheringaahing

That's what it appears to be

This literally could be have an easy win for them, they just got scared of a small start up and botched it

DJMcMayhem

I understand the frustration with the community ads and the downvotes. But close votes? Really?

I don't see how closing that question would accomplish anything

Adám

5:07 PM

@DJMcMayhem It is very unclear.

caird coinheringaahing

@DJMcMayhem I think @Adám and others have VTCed as unclear due to the vagueness around what is and isn't allowed

Adám

We are doing our duty as SE users; VTCing unclear posts.

DJMcMayhem

It's even less clear what it means for that question to be closed. No community ads at all?

Adám

It means OP has to clarify what they mean, and then we'll reopen it.

hyper-neutrino

if ads hit the requirement they should still become ads i think? idk how it works

DJMcMayhem

5:10 PM

Except that no one will be able to post answers

Adám

At 4 votes, I guess we'll see what it means.

Razetime

it is at 4 votes

pxeger

5:25 PM

very tempted to post it in Charcoal HQ asking for CVs

but I suspect that would be a bad idea

caird coinheringaahing

That's not what Charcoal is for :p

hyper-neutrino

a) you're unlikely to find more people with the reputation to do that there than here b) that's not what CHQ is for c) people should close it if they've come across the post and evaluated it as unclear, not because someone was soliciting votes to close it elsewhere

Adám

If you find the post unclear, then either upvote one of the comments asking for clarification about something, or add a comment asking clarification of something else.

@math Heh, they're even failing at that. This ad is allowed because Judaism on Codidact isn't directed towards technologists!

N3buchadnezzar

@cairdcoinheringaahing What is Charcoal for? I've tried to stay clear of all the drama as much as possible

caird coinheringaahing

@N3buchadnezzar Charcoal is for flagging spam

hyper-neutrino

5:37 PM

@N3buchadnezzar Charcoal is a third-party project to detect spam and offensive posts from SE and eliminate them. The chat room specifically is where a bot dumps all potentially harmful posts and people can review them so we can get rid of spam a lot faster, especially on smaller sites with slower moderation

N3buchadnezzar

Seems useful! Some might consider those community ads as spam, but I agree it is clearly off-topic there.

hyper-neutrino

uh

i don't think by any reasonable definition they're spam :p but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Catija

How is it off topic to have a place for y'all to advertise tools that y'all use, like TIO?

I'm so confused.

hyper-neutrino

@Catija they're saying it's off-topic to ask in CHQ to close the question

N3buchadnezzar

I guess I just don't like adds in general so i've disabled all of them ¯_(ツ)_/¯ "You wont believe the English words you have never heard of" "Problems with too long code? Top ten tricks to shorten your code"

hyper-neutrino

5:45 PM

which I don't think is productive/appropriate even if it is on-topic

@N3buchadnezzar community ads are ads created by and voted for by the community

they are an opportunity for us to advertise things we want - for example, TIO

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, Community Ads are probably the only ad system I support (normally, I have problems with the changes), and I'm notably very anti-ad :P

2

May 27 at 4:02, by caird coinheringaahing

My policy is very clear: if you show me an ad for your services, I will actively make steps to avoid your company as much as I can

N3buchadnezzar

Just feels strange to say, feel free to advertise your community the way you want. Just dont do x and y which is integral to your community

Peilonrayz

@N3buchadnezzar Woah, community ads taste much better than spam!

caird coinheringaahing

@N3buchadnezzar Yep, hence the downvotes

N3buchadnezzar

I am guessing that the guidelines is a mish mash between lawyers and the markeding team, not so much the community team. But that is just purely speculation.

Catija

5:49 PM

@N3buchadnezzar Can you be more specific?

N3buchadnezzar

Hyphotetically speaking assume that SO had a much shadier reputation. TIO or other external tools might not be so willingly have their software be associated with such a website. Idk, it just feels natural that they are wary of advertising for things they do not hold control over, from a legal basis.

JNat

Hey folks — dropping in to see if there are any bits I can help clarify here, rather than keep flooding the comment section :)

@Adám this is by design — why did you assume that the rule was meant to disallow all ads to Codidact? :)

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