The Nineteenth Byte

Wasif

17:00

what is smokedetector?

hyper-neutrino

it is a bot that detects spam/offensive posts across the network and puts them in a chat room for review

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms yeah

I think anything that someone of an average knowledge of computing, the language and math should be able to take that output and transform it into a readable form

Aaron Miller

@RedwolfPrograms I'm not sure if this is a bug in the interpreter or if I'm just dumb about Plumber, but shouldn't this output a zero from the left dropper, instead of pulling -1 from input?

StackMeter

what's Plumber

Redwolf Programs

An esolang I made

Aaron Miller

17:15

@StackMeter github.com/RedwolfPrograms/plumber

Redwolf Programs

I'm not sure. I think it should pull from the dropper.

Wait no

I think the dropper ignores the packet altogether

StackMeter

ok

Aaron Miller

Even if the dropper ignores the packet, shouldn't the packet still be at that cell and therefore be able to be pulled?

Redwolf Programs

I'm not actually sure. I don't know if it's a bug in the interpreter, or if the interpreter is correct and the description is wrong.

I'll take a look at it.

StackMeter

ok

this is why we test-run our programs and interpreters first

how do you even make an interpreter for a 2d lang

Redwolf Programs

17:22

very badly

I think I'm going to rewrite it

StackMeter

ah

I see you are a man of splitting as well

also 4D arrays aren't my thing

and when I finish AA

I might not make a 2D lang as i had so intended

Wzl

try making a 2D lang compiler, it's very fun/extremely horrible, YMMV

StackMeter

yes, but no

hyper-neutrino

if you hate 4D arrays you'd love this problem

wait sorry not that problem that has nothing to do with 4D, DP, or BBST i think

dmoj.ca/problem/ccc08s5 (from the CCC)

Aaron Miller

@StackMeter I made a 2D lang called Grok, and I modified the ><> interpreter for it. After going over it for a little while, it was actually pretty simple to understand and to modify, and I have very little experience with that kind of thing, so I'd say go for it.

Sandbox Posts

17:31

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Backromymiser code-golf string subsequence Background A backronym is an acronym that was formed from an existing word. For example, spam is actually named after the canned meat product as used in the Monty Python sketch, but can be interpreted as "stupid pointless annoying mail". They can also b...

hyper-neutrino

wait hold up - spam (the thing we get on our site) and SPAM (the meat) are actually related? huh, TIL

rak1507

@pxeger personally I'd say it is a dupe of speed of lobsters

StackMeter

I work only in 1D, 2D, 3D or 5D

or 6D+

Redwolf Programs

I need to relearn plumber lol

StackMeter

lol

pxeger

17:38

I reckon a 4-dimensional programming language would be a lot of fun

StackMeter

how would you even do that

Unrelated String

same way as any other number of dimensions

StackMeter

which is

and how would you even write a program

Wzl

@StackMeter trefunge (3D) has several 2D programs, separated by form feeds, which are stacked on top. You could extend this

quadium.net/funge/spec98.html#Space

pxeger

Right, I'm now working on a 4d interpreter

@NewPosts petition to rename New Posts to Betty Botter so we can say "Betty Botter bought a bit of bitter butter"

("but Betty Botter's bit of butter was too bitter so Betty Botter bought a bit of better butter")

user

17:52

@RedwolfPrograms I thought it was basically void (function x() ...), which makes a function and then does nothing

So I guess the function in question doesn't work at all

@pxeger Does editing source code in this language involving moving back through time to go to a previous section?

pxeger

@user nope, there is a 4th spatial dimension only

user

Hmm, so programmers must be beings that exist in higher dimensions? Interesting

Aaron Miller

@User Use 2D programs, separated by form feeds, with each 4D iteration in a different file.

user

That's a lot more boring than time travel :(

Aaron Miller

But a lot more doable.

Then again, quantum computers?

user

17:58

No need for quantum computers, we can just use the normal time travel we do every day

Aaron Miller

Ah yes, of course. My bad.

user

First you plan out the entire program the way you first said - 2d programs separated by form feeds with the 4th dimension being files. Then you write 3d programs very fast every minute, traveling to the future naturally

Kinda like a repl

Aaron Miller

On that note, Imma go eat lunch. o/

user

o/

StackMeter

ok

you know how there's 2d arrays

we make a 2d tiling of 2d arrays, and boom, 4d

user

18:03

Or you could make an array of arrays of arrays of arrays

3

StackMeter

yes

pxeger

I'm using numpy just because manual reshaping and whatnot is very hard to reason about in 4d

user

That's because you haven't transcended and become a 4D entity yet

Wheat Wizard

Haskell has 4d arrays.

user

Can't Haskell lists have an arbitrary number of dimensions? Or are arrays a different type here?

Wheat Wizard

18:07

Array types are different than lists in Haskell.

user

Are these C arrays, then?

Wheat Wizard

You can of course just put arrays in arrays ... but Haskell has arrays that are indexed by (Int, Int, Int, Int).

user

Oh, with a limit of 22?

rak1507

APL has 4d arrays

Wheat Wizard

I forget what Haskell's tuple limit is.

But you can index arrays by custom types so if you need to go beyond you can.

Haskell's arrays work differently than C arrays they are faster at copying (obviously) but slower for access.

user

18:10

@user Nvm the limit's higher

Wheat Wizard

You can even have infinite dimension arrays in principle. How well that works depends a little bit on what you mean by "infinite dimension arrays".

user

@rak1507 Doesn't Dyalog have a limit of 15?

rak1507

yep :(

not that in practice you ever need more than 15 dimensions

StackMeter

question

user

You never know

StackMeter

18:13

why do you ever need more than 3 or 4, maybe 5 dimesions

Wheat Wizard

For what?

StackMeter

for anything

name one senisble project that requires more than 5 dimensions

Wheat Wizard

I mean a function N -> N is an infinite dimension vector and those sure are useful. R -> R is a uncountably infinite dimension vector as well.

StackMeter

@WheatWizard surely that's just the identity function

Wheat Wizard

Huh?

There are functions from natural numbers to natural numbers that are not the idenity.

Redwolf Programs

18:17

@StackMeter R as in ℝ

Wheat Wizard

And this isn't a technicality we use functions in exactly this way in real analysis, using the exact same methods from linear algebra.

user

@StackMeter Those are types, not lambda expressions

Adám

@StackMeter Why do you want access to that trash?

user

N -> N is a function taking a natural number and outputting another natural number, and R -> R is a function taking a real number and outputting another real number

@StackMeter CMC: StackMeter's question must have an answer, but I can't think of one

2

Wheat Wizard

Is real analysis not a sensible project?

Redwolf Programs

18:21

@user A 3d array of 3d arrays. Think something sort of like Minecraft but where each block would need to keep track of information about blocks all around it.

user

What's real analysis?

Wheat Wizard

It's a field of mathematics.

Real analysis

In mathematics, real analysis is the branch of mathematical analysis that studies the behavior of real numbers, sequences and series of real numbers, and real functions. Some particular properties of real-valued sequences and functions that real analysis studies include convergence, limits, continuity, smoothness, differentiability and integrability. Real analysis is distinguished from complex analysis, which deals with the study of complex numbers and their functions. == Scope == === Construction of the real numbers === The theorems of real analysis rely intimately upon the structure ...

user

Sorry, just looked it up

Wheat Wizard

Calculus is a subfield of real analysis.

user

I meant, why does it require 5+ dimensions (outside of purely theoretical stuff that you wouldn't need to write code for)?

Wheat Wizard

18:25

A function from integers to integers, the bedrock of computing, is an infinite dimension vector.

rak1507

It's possible a 5d+ array could be used momentarily as one step in a process that didn't require higher dimensional arrays

Wheat Wizard

integration is an indinite dimensional matrix.

Redwolf Programs

I don't think that's what StackMeter meant by dimensions

StackMeter

@Adám because it simple

Redwolf Programs

I think they meant something like an actual array with more than 5 dimensions

StackMeter

18:26

@user the function that maps N to N is just f(x) = x

rak1507

iirc I used a 5 or 6 dimension array for an APL thing where I basically wanted to go from 3d -> 3d doing some operations in the middle, and the operations required going up a few dimensions

Wheat Wizard

@StackMeter f(x) = x+1

user

@WheatWizard Sorry, I don't understand, how is a function like that an infinite dimension vector?

StackMeter

@WheatWizard f(x) = x + n

Redwolf Programs

@StackMeter Don't think of N as a variable, think of it as a type

N -> N as in "a function that takes something of type N as input and returns something of type N"

user

18:28

@rak1507 I guess that makes sense

StackMeter

hmm

@RedwolfPrograms something that isn't the identity couldn't possibly return that

Redwolf Programs

???

user

@StackMeter ? See WheatWizard's function

Redwolf Programs

There are plenty of things that take something of type N and return something else of type N that isn't the input

StackMeter

then what about 1

what maps to 1

user

18:30

idk, it depends on the function

Wheat Wizard

@user An n vector has n slots to hold things. If you have a function to index them you get a function from naturals less than n to its content at that place. So if you have a vector that holds an infinite number of things it's indexing function is just any function on natural numbers. And of course the indexing function uniquely defines the vector so you can simply say the indexing function is the vector.

user

Ah, that makes sense

hyper-neutrino

N here is a general type, not the set of naturals

a clearer example: f : Z -> Z, f(x) = x + 1

Wheat Wizard

@StackMeter Nothing needs to map to 1. But if you want a bijection f(2x)=2x+1;f(2x+1)=2x, is a bijection that is not an identity.

hyper-neutrino

besides, not everything needs to have an inverse mapping

user

18:31

@hyper-neutrino I thought when WheatWizard said it before, they meant it as bold N

hyper-neutrino

ah

well still, it doesn't need to be surjective

user

Yeah

hyper-neutrino

f : N -> N, f(x) = 1 is a valid function from naturals to naturals

Redwolf Programs

That's the most halfhearted function I've seen in a while lol

user

@WheatWizard What I was looking for (and what StackMeter was looking for) is something that would require a language to support arrays with more than 5 dimensions

@RedwolfPrograms def >() = ??? there you go, an even more halfhearted function

StackMeter

18:34

@hyper-neutrino oh ok

user

@user I meant to say "what I think StackMeter was looking for", I'm not sure if that's what they meant too

Wheat Wizard

@user Well, it shouldn't surprise you that functions also serve as infinite dimensional arrays. An array is just a vector indexed by a vector, so to get an infinite dimensional array all you need is a second order function. Integration is as I pointed out earlier an infinite dimensional matrix. Which makes it a particular kind of infinite dimensional array.

But of course there are many other useful second order functions.

sum is a decent example as well.

Redwolf Programs

Wouldn't f(x) = x, for example, just be a one dimensional array? With x being the dimension? I don't see what's infinitely dimensional about it.

hyper-neutrino

the dimension of a vector is its size

i think that's how definitions work, at least

Wheat Wizard

Assuming x is a natural number, yeah that is a 1 dimensional array, but an infinite dimension vector.

user

18:44

x would be the indices (and elements), I guess

Adám

@StackMeter ?

StackMeter

@WheatWizard oh yeah

user

@WheatWizard That makes sense when I think about it, but one doesn't require an int[][][][][][]... to represent functions/this specific group of infinite dimensional arrays

New Posts

18:59

2

Q: Should I prevent users of a specific browser doing my challenge?

I'm currently working on a challenge which involves writing JavaScript players for a board game. I've also recently discovered private fields in JavaScript (a recent addition), which I thought would be useful to prevent entries from accessing forbidden objects and cheating the game. The only trou...

discussion

Redwolf Programs

That got renamed, fixed

user

Wait, why was that posted twice?

Unrelated String

why did editing the title repost it

Redwolf Programs

I did that manually

Unrelated String

ah

hyper-neutrino

19:00

if the title is changed, i wonder if editing the message to the same thing will update the title

Redwolf Programs

I tried, but was too late

it does work though

I think I will add the five minute grace period caird suggested

hyper-neutrino

it is never too late for me :D

user

But it's too late for the rest of us? Are we beyond saving? :/

hyper-neutrino

yeah i think the 5m delay is a good idea. still beats the 40m from our feeds and it gives a bit of leeway to fix it

though i wouldn't have seen this without the post to chat, lol. but someone else might've

i didn't have a main site window open so i wouldn't have seen the notif

user

2-3 minutes might be better, but that would mess with the grace period

Wzl

19:01

imagine using the main site

user

This post made by more active in chat than on CGCC main gang?

Wzl

@user idk I didn't make that post

user

?

hyper-neutrino

i open a new codegolf tab and close it every like 2-10m depending on what i'm doing

StackMeter

I just always open CGCC even if I post nothing

user

19:05

^

Redwolf Programs

^^

StackMeter

for i in range(10**(10**10)): print("^"*i)

hyper-neutrino

-2 bytes by removing the excess brackets, -1 byte by removing the space

Redwolf Programs

1e10 is shorter than 10**10

hyper-neutrino

but is not an integer

Redwolf Programs

19:08

Does Python have that?

Oh

Wzl

answers in comments to get pundit ftw :P

hyper-neutrino

which has two problems - firstly, it exceeds the max size of a float, secondly, range doesn't accept floats

user

It does, yeah

Redwolf Programs

Not that 10**(10**10) would fit in memory lol

StackMeter

that's not a float it's an int

Redwolf Programs

19:10

I know

So it uses more memory the bigger it is

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino it's not a float, it's Python's BeegInt

hyper-neutrino

@StackMeter 1e10 is a float

source: print(type(1e10))

StackMeter

yes

1e10 is

but this isn't 1e10

hyper-neutrino

I was talking about 1e10 because Redwolf brought it up...

2 mins ago, by Redwolf Programs

1e10 is shorter than 10**10

Wzl

@hyper-neutrino nonsense, 1e10 is a string (this post made by tcl gang (but I'm not in tcl gang))

hyper-neutrino

19:12

sounds cursed

Wheat Wizard

tcl is cursed.

Wzl

^

Redwolf Programs

> Tcl (pronounced "tickle"

Yep this is cursed

First three words of the article and I'm done

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms I quit upon hearing that

wow we're at peak at 7-8 aren't we

Neil

@RedwolfPrograms _=>.5<3 - well, you did ask for a half hearted function

Redwolf Programs

19:14

:p

Wzl

@Neil a code pun

StackMeter

lol

o

Redwolf Programs

19:36

Ugh I think someone must've figured out some sort of DOS attack on my school's grading website, I've been waiting for something like ten minutes for the page to load

StackMeter

lol

I might just learn how to do that

Redwolf Programs

No.

StackMeter

ok

why the "no."

Redwolf Programs

DOS attacks are awful.

StackMeter

ok

Redwolf Programs

19:41

There's almost never a reason for one other than being an awful person.

StackMeter

I had no intetion of doing one anyway

Redwolf Programs

Good :p

StackMeter

it is

Wzl

in general, if someone is annoyed by something, don't make jokes about it

Redwolf Programs

Unless that thing is SQL

If SQL were a food, it would be socks with sandals

Wzl

19:43

lol

StackMeter

ok

hyper-neutrino

TIL you can use s/a/b in discord to edit your previous message

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms If SQL were an element, it would be Polonium

Wzl

@RedwolfPrograms the exception that applies here is "unless they make jokes about it themself"

Redwolf Programs

Hey, Polonium's neat!

Wzl

19:44

~~so's SQL~~

StackMeter

it's literally a trillion times more poisonous than cyanide

which is perfectly safe

given cyanide can kill you in micrograms

Redwolf Programs

That makes it neat

Wait cyanide isn't that toxic is it?

StackMeter

no it is

Redwolf Programs

I thought it took a sizeable amount

Or is it the sodium vs. potassium cyanide thing

I thought it took micrograms of polonium to kill though

StackMeter

no

it takes picograms to kill

Redwolf Programs

19:46

There's no way

StackMeter

no

Redwolf Programs

It's at least 10 nanograms, even for inhalation

StackMeter

it is in the nanograms though

so one gram of polonium could be used to commit one of the worst war crimes in history

Wzl

we need reliable sources here

Redwolf Programs

Probably wouldn't be used in war though, so it'd just be a normal crime

Wzl

19:48

like wikipedia

lol a normal crime like wikipedia

Redwolf Programs

hpschapters.org/northcarolina/NSDS/210PoPDF.pdf

Wzl

I'm just partially joking, which is the worst kind of joking

Redwolf Programs

You're not partially Jo King, you're 100% Wzl

Wzl

(yes I am partially JoKing, we share some of the same DNA)

Redwolf Programs

That doesn't make you partially Jo King

StackMeter

19:50

oh yeah there's polonium cyanide

Redwolf Programs

{1, 2, 3} and {1, 2, 4} have some similar items but the first isn't partially the second

StackMeter

the "pick your poison" chemical

Wzl

@Wzl ofc it's packed in a different format because I'm immortal (assuming Jo King is mortal, which might not be a reasonable assumption)

Redwolf Programs

Jo King is Australian; we all know you only die in real life if you die in Canada

Wzl

so Canada=rl?

hyper-neutrino

19:51

Can confirm, I am in a mortal vessel right now (though it wouldn't necessarily be accurate to say I am mortal myself).

StackMeter

I may be immortal

but I would not know

and I have no intention of testing

Redwolf Programs

Maybe I'm immortal! (redwolf was never seen again)

StackMeter

and this is how you get on the stupid deaths list

hyper-neutrino

darwin awards speedrun

Redwolf Programs

StackMeter

19:57

@hyper-neutrino what's the any% on that one

hyper-neutrino

depends, do you count starting from birth or from when

Wzl

@hyper-neutrino I'm at 14.5 m right now

rak1507

life any% speedrun is so RNG based, also so region dependent!

Redwolf Programs

Installing LaTeX for no reason

StackMeter

ok

Redwolf Programs

20:05

No need to reply ok to random messages :p

(Don't you dare reply with ok :p)

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms oK

Redwolf Programs

D:

hyper-neutrino

-273.15C

Redwolf Programs

20:22

Kinda dislike the SO blog

I'm not sure who their audience is supposed to be

It's mostly not even about the actual interesting part of programming

I don't think I've seen more than one or two blog posts about interesting new technologies or things I as a developer would want to go play with; it's all about all the boring "behind the scenes" stuff I don't deal with like devops and frameworks

Does...does anyone feel like they know anything more or will be more productive after reading this?

A username

No

The two most recent high-starred messages are Bubbler's untyped lambda calculus algorithm and cairds sus amogus.

Redwolf Programs

I think the SO blog is just an excuse to advertise teams at this point

A username

Yup

Redwolf Programs

Sara Chipps is leaving

That's the "director of community" who was resonsible for quite a few of those "apologies" around The Incident

I've been at 79/80 for something like a week and a half because I couldn't find a good post to make my 80th edit on

Deputy's going to be tough...we don't get all that much that needs flagging

hyper-neutrino

20:43

meta or main?

Redwolf Programs

Main

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms Source?

hyper-neutrino

pppery's getting close to marshal - they've been posting on their profile (and also helpful flags cast is a public stat anyway)

67

Q: We’re looking for a new Vice President of Community at Stack Overflow

You might have noticed that we posted a VP of Community job description on our “Careers at Stack Overflow” page. It’s a big role, and important here at the company. As we move forward in the process of becoming a product-led company, we’re putting a lot of thought into our original product - our...

discussion announcements company community-managers

I have conflicted feelings about Sara overall - it's possible that a lot of the things she said or did were corporate decisions that she had the misfortune of taking the backlash from the community for. At the same time, some of the things she's said or done (e.g. retweeting a bad-faith tweet about the whole CoC incident) have been at best inflammatory and done almost certainly by her individually.

Especially given what Catija said in her answer (and I trust Catija overall) I'm more hesitant to just downright dislike her or believe she's a bad person compared to back in 2019/2020.

Adám

@hyper-neutrino Thanks.

hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms there's plenty of flaggable stuff, lol. it takes a while to find though - old invalid answers are everywhere but you need to go through a lot of stuff and IMO it's not really worth it

but as long as someone isn't spamming way too many flags, i'll take a look and validate them even on really old posts nobody remembers. so you could always get deputy/marshal that way

Wheat Wizard

20:53

If you flag enough stuff you might overwhelm HN and I might get to handle a flag or two.

Or alternatively just flag stuff in the morning on CET.

New Posts

21:04

0

Q: Make an interpreter for This Arbitrary Unique Language

No, I didn't mess up capitalization in the title. This Arbitrary Generic Language is, you guessed it, an arbitrary generic language. Except it's eight bit, sorta. Here are the instructions for the v1.0 you need to interpret: A(b,c); takes the binary value of b (b is limited to ascii characters a...

code-challenge interpreter

Sandbox Posts

21:31

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Here is what the question I have in mind is: Make an interpreter for This Arbitrary Generic Language No, I didn't mess up capitalization in the title. This Arbitrary Generic Language is, you guessed it, an arbitrary generic language. Except it's eight bit, sorta. It's missing an interpreter thoug...

Redwolf Programs

→ 1 message moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

hyper-neutrino

Thanks.

user

Sorry

Redwolf Programs

I've done it too, easy mistake to make

hyper-neutrino

I understand your concerns though. If you have information you need to report to us to let us know about things, mod flags on main site are the best way to go about it (flag your own post if the user you need to talk about doesn't have posts).

Redwolf Programs

21:39

Maybe we should pin a message here for the next few days with that information

user

@hyper-neutrino Nah, I was being too suspicious too soon, there's nothing to worry about now anyway

hyper-neutrino

In any case, I assure you I don't need reminders about this issue... I'll be keeping watch. If there's something really obvious or getting too suspicious and nothing has happened it might be worth raising a flag for me, but if it's just random suspicions, I've probably already noticed too, TBH.

lyxal

22:29

@RedwolfPrograms information?

what information?

Am I missing something obvious here or has a conversation happened that's now been deleted?

@NewPosts @SandboxPosts hello there

hyper-neutrino

@lyxal don't talk about suspensions and problematic users, if you need to provide information to mods or get our attention, use flags on main. that's basically it :p

i think they changed the mod diamond in chat from red to gray

lyxal

Can't confirm that

hyper-neutrino

i remember it being red, at least (on mobile)

lyxal

Still red on my end

hyper-neutrino

wack. maybe a system/os thing then

Unrelated String

22:38

on my end, i'm pretty sure that your at least is blue

*s

hyper-neutrino

can't see why se would touch chat and change that of all things

@UnrelatedString forgot to clarify on mobile. unless it's blue for you on mobile in which case wack

Unrelated String

ah

well I have no recollection of what it looked like on mobile before but it is gray now

Redwolf Programs

I broke it

I tried to disassemble it and couldn't get the case to open and I broke it

lyxal

stoopid

Redwolf Programs

Looks like we're going with option three. No more laptop, no more data.

lyxal

22:53

@hyper-neutrino there is no Gray diamond emoji is there?

Because that's all it is

♦️

Redwolf Programs

Looks like I'll need to save up for another $1k laptop

Bubbler

@RedwolfPrograms New achievement: Pauli effect

Redwolf Programs

That laptop has suffered enough at my hands anyway, guess it was time I put it out of its misery anyway

Although I've had it for less than three years I think

user

Planned obsolescence :( (engrish diphikult)

rak1507

why not buy cheaper ones and then you could ssh into a remote server or something like that

Redwolf Programs

22:56

@user No, unplanned stupidity

@rak1507 You try playing minecraft with 60fps over SSH stoopid

rak1507

lol

Redwolf Programs

@Bubbler My takeaway is that I'm going to be a super influential physicist one day (and not that I'm just really good at breaking expensive things)

Bubbler

You can use Gitpod like a remote Ubuntu desktop :P

user

Wait really?

Redwolf Programs

That's what my server's for :p

Bubbler

22:58

(actually not. The framerate and response rate is really bad)

user

:( You had my hopes up

Bubbler

also free user is limited to 100hr/month

Redwolf Programs

CMP: Good laptops in the $750 to $1500 price range?

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