The Nineteenth Byte

Anush

4:10 PM

Good point about gmpy and sympy

I am sad they closed the so logo question

Wasif

hi everyone

hope y'all are doin' well

and wats wrong with the newest question posted on main?

we should at least give OP some time to add the clarification

Unrelated String

that's what closing it is for

hyper-neutrino

well OP is suspended for a year so it doesn't matter anyway

besides, closing is easily reversible; the point is to put it on hold until OP can clarify, and then reopen it

Wasif

@hyper-neutrino they are back again??? oO

but how did you know

they don't leave any evidence this time

hyper-neutrino

I will not disclose my reasons or methods for suspending users.

Wasif

4:21 PM

ok

caird coinheringaahing

5:13 PM

@hyper-neutrino Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the method "Press the big red 'Suspend this user' button"? :P

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing ._. if we're gonna be technical about it, the method is click "Mod" then "Contact user privately" then check "also suspend this user" then select a time, write a message, and click "contact user"

:P

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino That sounds decidedly less fun than a big red button :P

hyper-neutrino

i could make a userscript to turn the button into a big red button if the checkbox is checked to make it more fun :P

but suspending users isn't particularly fun anyway :P

bobble

@hyper-neutrino depends what you suspend them from

hyper-neutrino

well if i need to suspend a user it means someone was breaking the rules and that's not very fun :p

New Meta Posts

5:23 PM

0

Q: Efficiency vs Length

Is there any modality of Code Golf where the faster the task the better instead of evaluating the size of the program? My curiosity born by the question if size is better than efficiency or vice-versa. I know it's difficult to evaluate efficiency from different computers but it could be possible ...

discussion

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing lol I ninja'd your edit by 17 seconds, but I'll delete mine so they can be in one spot :P

caird coinheringaahing

My edit would've been in the grace period if the OP hadn't've commented :P

hyper-neutrino

lol

Redwolf Programs

5:45 PM

Do we have a meta post where each scoring criterion has an answer explaining what it is and where it's used, sort of like a scoring criterion reference? That could be good both as a place to link users and a dupe target.

caird coinheringaahing

Yes

Redwolf Programs

I know the tag wikis sort of do that, but having specifically the criteria and their pros and cons listed in one place could be good

Oh nice

caird coinheringaahing

@cairdcoinheringaahing Actually, it might be good to move that into a separate faq post that we can just use as an actual dupe target. As is, it's not easy to find.

Redwolf Programs

I agree

We don't really need the language tag list IMO

caird coinheringaahing

I'm tempted to just write that up, be back in a bit :P

To be frank, a lot of these tags have no good reason to exist. In cases where the only tagged question is the tips one, the language tag doesn't really add anything. — Peter Taylor Jan 24 '14 at 22:29

Strongly agree with Peter here

hyper-neutrino

5:54 PM

i agree. there are a lot of language tags with only tips that shouldn't exist but untagging them all will bump since it doesn't make sense to merge them into anything

caird coinheringaahing

Can you nuke them?

hyper-neutrino

like just burniate the tags themselves directly? probably. i'll see what i can do when i get off mobile

hyper-neutrino

6:44 PM

looks like there is not a way to do that

delete + retag + undelete apparently doesn't bump, but idk if it sends a notification to the user and if it actually avoids the bump. i tested on my sock's answer and it still bumped it (but didn't send a notification). anyone have a question they'd be willing to help me test on?

another possibility is to organize a cleanup weekend to fix these tags and maybe some other stuff and just give up trying to avoid the bumps (the only problem is inbox notifications to authors); for example, SuperUser has done this several times with good success; what do y'all think? we could also fix other tagging, formatting, non-competing, or other stuff that normally doesn't warrant bumping

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino IIRC deleting, editing and undeleting does bump

The problem is that you can't edit deleted questions (or, we can't. not sure about mods)

hyper-neutrino

I think I can (I see no reason why not) but that's a good point to consider too

ah :/ well i'll go test it on a retag i guess; idk if those are different from full edits

I just retagged this question 3 minutes ago and it's not on the front page so I think this might work

never mind. just as I say that it bumps

the only other solution then would be to just retag them a few at a time slowly or just organize a proper cleanup weekend. thoughts?

caird coinheringaahing

6:59 PM

Personally, I think any language tag that is only on a tips question can be nuked no problem. If we need it in the future (let's say there is a matl-based challenge for example), we can recreate and retag the tips question

It also means that there'll be no "untagged" questions to worry about, as all language tips are tagged with code-golf and tips

hyper-neutrino

i agree. there are a couple of languages that have found good uses for tags but there are 14 language tags with just their tips question which I think should all just be removed

unfortunately synonyms show up on the tags page

caird coinheringaahing

klein is a good example of a language tag that is worth keeping around, as there is at least two relevant questions (existing one + tips, as yet unposted)

@hyper-neutrino Why would you synonymise them?

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing i wouldn't; i just meant that the existing synonyms show up so the page will have that extra clutter

(or at least, IMO, it's clutter)

also nvm it's only 12, I accidentally counted klein and prelude in there

caird coinheringaahing

TBH k and j could possibly be synonymised with apl

But that's a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ suggestion

rak1507

no, I disagree

hyper-neutrino

7:08 PM

i don't think that makes much sense

then again, I also don't know much about any of those languages. but i don't think K or J are like subsets of APL, they're just similar in being array languages and tacit and other things? idk tho

feels like synonymising jelly into J for me

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, I just know that APL/J/k is a common "abbreviation", so they're similar enough to be grouped together. Maybe not tag-wise tho

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing only if we synonymise most other languages with algol :)

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn I say we synonymise every tag into challenge and call it a day :P

4

hyper-neutrino

anyway, should I bring up a cleanup weekend idea to meta, or do we think that's a bad idea?

caird coinheringaahing

I like the idea of a tag cleanup event, especially if it isn't just language tags

hyper-neutrino

7:16 PM

i'll write up a meta post later today then. if we do a clean-up i think it'd be nice to collect some things to target for fixing

also if we get lower rep users on-board, that'll generate a lot of review tasks, and I'm sure several people would not mind that at all ;)

pxeger

caird coinheringaahing

7:40 PM

Thoughts on making this either faq-proposed, or faq?

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing faq

caird coinheringaahing

One name stands out in particular here

pxeger

8:01 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Marc?

Redwolf Programs

Probably Doorknob

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Yeah. Clearly not all staff members get constable, so Marc must have actually have been a mod for a year, and I cannot find anything on meta even mentioning that

> 3,000 votes cast

That's a nice round number, I think I'll stop voting and leave it there :P

New Meta Posts

8:18 PM

1

Q: What are the winning criteria I can use for my challenge?

I'm writing a challenge, and I'm not sure what possible winning criteria exist? I know about code-golf, but what else is there to use, and how do I score answers with those criteria? Additionally, every single question on this site should have at least one of the following tags. Those without wil...

support faq tags winning-criteria

caird coinheringaahing

@NewMetaPosts After 4 years, I really should know this :P

hyper-neutrino

should we close the old one into this one then?

caird coinheringaahing

I'm not sure. On the one hand, it has mostly the same info, but on the other, they aren't the same question. The older one is about categorising tags in general

I think the recent question about fastest-code should be closed as a dupe of ^^^^, and I've voted to close it as such

Anush

9:07 PM

Can we reopen codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/226148/98590 ?

Redwolf Programs

That's not a good idea

caird coinheringaahing

OP hasn't yet clarified the reason it got closed (and kinda can't):

You specified the orientations of the sticks, but not their positions — Luis Mendo 7 hours ago

Anush

I can't really see what is so bad about the question

caird coinheringaahing

You're welcome to edit it to address that issue

Anush

Do you mean it's actually impossible to satisfy the complaint?

Redwolf Programs

9:09 PM

No, just that it shouldn't be answered until it's fixed

caird coinheringaahing

No. As we discussed in the comments, the OP is suspended, meaning they are unable to edit their post

hyper-neutrino

No? Nothing has been done to address the complaint at all.

Anush

It would be kindest if the person complaining would offer a concrete solution the OP could just use than leave it as a puzzle

A username

Which complaint?

hyper-neutrino

It's not up to whoever closes it to fix the challenge...

If you post a challenge, you are the one expected to satisfy our site's rules and standards.

Anush

9:10 PM

Hmm....I don't think this is positive and constructive

rak1507

poor guy no one's willing to give him a second chance

Anush

We are all here just for fun. It's not a job

rak1507

if someone wants to contribute to cgcc, and they don't do anything wrong, why shouldn't they be allowed to

Anush

Let's help each other!

rak1507

obviously for some other nefarious reasons, but whatever

Redwolf Programs

9:11 PM

> and they don't do anything wrong

A username

It looks pretty well-written... Besides, you pretty much have to ask in chat to get enough feedback, but with no rep you can't.

hyper-neutrino

15 hours in the sandbox isn't nearly enough.

caird coinheringaahing

Right. The user in question is unable to edit their post. Therefore, if someone wants it to be reopened, they have to edit it. The biggest (and only) issue is that the positions of the sticks is no specified. If someone fixes that, according to the sample image, I am all in favour of reopening it

Redwolf Programs

^

caird coinheringaahing

Unless that happens, it should stay closed

hyper-neutrino

9:12 PM

I think it's less positive and less constructive to argue over our policies and the enforcement of them than to fix it, which would be the positive and direct solution that caird already brought up. I will gladly reopen it if it gets the details and clarity that I closed it as needing.

A username

I'll try to fix it. Also, I got kolmogorov-complexity bronze badge!

Redwolf Programs

Nice!

caird coinheringaahing

Just a reminder @Anush and @rak1507: we do want people to have fun here. However, we aren't some site where you can just post whatever and expect it to be ok. We require some basic minimum standard for all posts, regardless of who posts them. Now, in this specific case, they did do something wrong (hence the suspension). What that was is irrelevant. That does mean that we do have to help each other if we want to fix that, and that is exactly what editing was designed for

Redwolf Programs

What's not fun is posting an answer after twenty minutes of work and having to delete it because you misunderstood an underspecified challenge

Wzl

Don't you hate it when your cat jumps on you early in the morning and simultaneously bruising your eye and waking you up on time on the one day that month where you have to be up by 4:30!?

2

caird coinheringaahing

9:17 PM

Closing is also designed to be 100% reversible and temporary. If the issues identified are fixed, then it is reversed. It's typically on the OP to fix those issues, but anyone is welcome to give it a shot

@Wzl Cat alarm clock

hyper-neutrino

This room was placed in timeout for 2 minutes; the topic of this room is "General discussion for codegolf.stackexchange.com | Guidelines: ppcg.github.io/chatiquette/"; - conversation should be limited to that topic.

Look - I'm not going to answer any questions about why this user is suspended or explain anything about my process.

When I suspend a user, I have a reason for it, and that reason is almost always going to simply be that I am following Stack Exchange's policies, which I agreed to uphold when I became a moderator.

People do get a second chance - there's a reason suspensions aren't permanent. If you get suspended, after your suspension is over, you are very welcome to return and continue contributions. SE firmly believes in reforming and people changing their behavior over time.

It's why there's no public record of past suspensions. In fact, by talking about a user's suspension, you are only bringing more and more attention to their mistakes which will only alienate them once their suspension is over.

The reason I say to not talk about people's suspensions publicly is because once it's over, they should feel welcome to return to our community, not isolated because they made a mistake in the past.

caird coinheringaahing

→ 11 messages moved to Trash

I'm trashing (mostly) this whole conversation. This is over, and we're done talking about this

Redwolf Programs

Might've been better to have HN move it to the trashcan, not sure

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Can you retro-nuke that?

hyper-neutrino

I can just destroy the whole conversation in the Trash room. Nothing worth moving into Trashcan anyway, so I'll just delete it all.

caird coinheringaahing

9:27 PM

Man, mod powers are OP :P

@RedwolfPrograms Any more thoughts on this y'all?

Redwolf Programs

It's been under 24 hours, I say we wait maybe another day before I move them over.

caird coinheringaahing

If/when we do, I'd like to preserve the current feeds links (e.g. codegolf.stackexchange.com/feeds) so that it's easier to revert them if needed

A username

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why?

caird coinheringaahing

Because I'd rather not go digging around for the old links if Redwolf's bots (somehow) turn out to be a bad idea

hyper-neutrino

Unfortunately, I don't think I can just pause a feed. So I (or whoever applies these changes) can just keep a hold of those links, or we could even put them into the meta post as a permanent record if we ever need to revert the bot.

Redwolf Programs

9:31 PM

We may also need to switch back under a few circumstances, like if I know my server is going to go down for an extended period of time

caird coinheringaahing

Sorry, poor word choice. Preserve the links somewhere, not preserve the feeds :)

Feed links: New Main Posts. New Meta Posts. New Sandbox Posts

There, just search for "Feed links" if/when we need them :)

Redwolf Programs

I need to get the sockets working so that the bots won't leave the room

Wzl

what's gonna happen to Tim? Is he just gonna be fired?

Redwolf Programs

He'll still be in charge of NFQ, NBWND, and NLP

caird coinheringaahing

Tim's conscious will be merged with the bots

hyper-neutrino

9:33 PM

Tim still operates the other three feeds, we'll discuss his paycheck later once we get a meta consensus.

Redwolf Programs

Tim already doesn't get paid, but we can cut his food rations I guess

caird coinheringaahing

I reckon we should reduce it down to 2 waffles a week

Kind of old, but article mentioning 05AB1E+TIO

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Lowest effort to fill the bucket There are two man, Paul and Jhon, who can move only along a line; they are real persons so Paul cannot goes to the right of John and Jhon cannot goes to the left of Paul. At time 0 they start at the opposite ends of the line. Paul |------X1----X2----BUCKET--------...

Redwolf Programs

Maybe we should just remove NLP and NBWND

They aren't particularly useful, and there's other meta posts that would be more useful to have feeds for anyway IMO

caird coinheringaahing

Bounties is useful, I don't think NLP is particularly common anymore

Redwolf Programs

9:40 PM

Also, NFQ using the terms "newly" and "questions" rather than "new" and "posts" makes it seem kind of different

Is it possible to rename it?

I don't know how the custom feed users work

caird coinheringaahing

I have this outstanding feature-request about having a feed for the Hello, World! question

Redwolf Programs

Oh, that's your request?

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms I believe mods can rename chat users

hyper-neutrino

Yes, we can rename custom feeds (I think ROs can rename feeds users created for their room)

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Yeah. It got a response, but both of the rooms it mentioned froze like a week after the answer

hyper-neutrino

9:42 PM

As we've seen before, moderators can also rename the network-wide Feeds bot itself...

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino I can't see any obvious renaming ability

Redwolf Programs

Same

caird coinheringaahing

I can edit the feed URL and whether its a ticker or message feed

hyper-neutrino

you know... neither do I

Can you edit the name here?

caird coinheringaahing

Nope

Wzl

9:44 PM

@RedwolfPrograms try clicking another user (say, Wzl for example), and seeing if you can give them RO privs. Let's see if that fixes it :D

caird coinheringaahing

Also, today has been an eventful/controversial day for TNB. Starting it out with sand eject and now the recent timeout. That's a lot

@hyper-neutrino Can you?

hyper-neutrino

Ah. Well, I can change it there, so if needed I'll just do that. I'm not sure if you get the option when creating the special feeds user itself as an RO

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino How do you create a feeds user?

hyper-neutrino

if there's no "create user" button next to the feed, then it might also be a mod-only tool :/

caird coinheringaahing

I think that requires mod powers. Example

I only see "Remove" and "Edit"

hyper-neutrino

9:48 PM

caird coinheringaahing

I do not have that

hyper-neutrino

Yeah, looks like that is also a mod tool.

Well, if we ever want feeds renamed, new feeds, etc, just ping me, I'm active here anyway lol.

caird coinheringaahing

9 mins ago, by Redwolf Programs

Also, NFQ using the terms "newly" and "questions" rather than "new" and "posts" makes it seem kind of different

"New Featured Posts" would be a good name

hyper-neutrino

Good point; just renamed it.

Redwolf Programs

Thanks!

Doing some testing with NP/SP to try to get them to stay in the room permanently

But I need to leave now for dinner :/

A username

9:58 PM

@RedwolfPrograms Bye

Redwolf Programs

o/

caird coinheringaahing

Did y'all know we were the 42nd site to be added to the SE network? :P

A username

Ok

Noo i didn't

Damn my sticky o key

A username

10:19 PM

This answer from JoKing is incredible!

Luis Mendo

"Dispiriting for the OP" as a criterion not to close as unclear??

I don't think this really needed to be closed. That could be quite dispiriting for the OP — Anush 6 hours ago

caird coinheringaahing

@LuisMendo I suggest you read some of the room transcript

A username

They can't, you deleted it.

Luis Mendo

Can you be more specific? The transcript is... huge

hyper-neutrino

Start here

caird coinheringaahing

10:22 PM

@LuisMendo Good point. Beginning here until the moved messages

Ninja'd :/

Luis Mendo

Thank you both

Anyway, the challenge is under-specified. Why does it have two reopen votes?

caird coinheringaahing

TBH I did initially think it was well specified on my first read through. It was only after I noticed your comment that I had to reread it and notice that

it makes a solid effort to define the colors, proportions, sizes, angles etc. Aside from the actual positions, it's pretty well specified. Of course, the lack of positions sort of nullifies that, but still

Luis Mendo

Yes, were it not for that missing part it would be. And I would vote to reopen, and upvote, and perhaps answer. But that essential part is missing

hyper-neutrino

It is close to well-specified; it just needed a bit more clarification, hence why it was put on hold (though I don't think that term exists anymore). Close votes, like any votes, are put on posts and not users, and I think close votes need to be seen as feedback and not personal or binding; posts can always be reopened if they are brought up to the site's standards, after all.

Wheat Wizard

I would suggest at the moment that clarifying changes be added to the challenge by someone other than OP.

caird coinheringaahing

10:28 PM

1 hour ago, by caird coinheringaahing

Right. The user in question is unable to edit their post. Therefore, if someone wants it to be reopened, they have to edit it. The biggest (and only) issue is that the positions of the sticks is no specified. If someone fixes that, according to the sample image, I am all in favour of reopening it

Luis Mendo

The problem is, specifying the positions to match those of the logo (which is the idea of the challenge) seems hard. It's not clear if it's a circle, and if it is, what the center and radius are. And what the angular distance between sticks is

caird coinheringaahing

I'd edit it, but all my image manipulation software is garbage, and I can't get a good measurement of the coords for the sticks :/

As the lengths and angles of the sticks are defined, I think it should suffice to simply provide pixel coords for opposite corners of each stick

Luis Mendo

Yes, that could be easier

Wheat Wizard

I'd say that it doesn't neeed to be precise enough to define code. Just specify the relative locations of the lower left corner of each and give a tolerance. Then its up to golfers to figure out how to represent that in a concise way.

Luis Mendo

10:43 PM

What do you think about this? It's a bit hard to identify the corner exactly. And I may have counted the pixels wrongly:

Lower-right corner of 2nd stick: 2 pixels up, 0 pixels right from upper-right corner of 1st stick
Lower-right corner of 3rd stick: 14 pixels up, 2 pixels right from upper-right corner of 1st stick
Lower-right corner of 4th stick: 24 pixels up, 7 pixels right from upper-right corner of 1st stick
Lower-right corner of 5th stick: 24 pixels up, 32 pixels right from upper-right corner of 1st stick

caird coinheringaahing

~~That seems wrong, if the image is "82 by 97 pixels"~~ Wait, they're from the 1st stick, ignore me

Wheat Wizard

I would still suggest slight tolerances to allow for approaches that don't just hardcode the numbers.

Luis Mendo

Sorry, better image now:

Yeah, I'd say +/-1 pixel tolerance

A username

11:03 PM

Looks good, just edit it in and reopen vote.

caird coinheringaahing

@LuisMendo Also: lower-right corner of first stick is 8 pixels above the base, and 8 pixels in from the side of the base

A username

Yes, that's already in the question.

caird coinheringaahing

@Ausername Where?

A username

Well, it's in the sandboxed version, but not the main oone for some reason.

Luis Mendo

Another problem is that defining tilted rectangles pixel by pixel is difficult. And the original image has anti-aliasing, which softens the edges by using different shades of orange. For example, how do you specify the lower edge of the second rectangle? It's not sharply defined

If someone finds a way to make the challenge well specifed feel free to use or modify the above numbers

A username

11:12 PM

I guess we could transpile it to SVG and go from there, or use the current HTML+CSS answer as a reference implementation.

Luis Mendo

@cairdcoinheringaahing Good point, that's missing too

caird coinheringaahing

11:24 PM

CMC: Given integers n and m, calculate gcd(F_n, F_m), where F_x is the xth Fib number

hyper-neutrino

probably like ÆFgÆF} or smth, too lazy to pull up the wiki on mobile

caird coinheringaahing

3 bytes in Jelly :P

hyper-neutrino

or actually ÆFg/

unless there's a one byte GCD monad

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino 3 bytes :P

hyper-neutrino

wait what lol

A username

11:29 PM

6 in Vyxal

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Confirmation that they're the same :P

hyper-neutrino

wait so gcd f x f y is the same as f gcd x y?

is that the math behind it?

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah :P

hyper-neutrino

ok good i thought i had forgotten how 2,1 worked lol

caird coinheringaahing

Math.SE answer :P

A username

11:31 PM

I did nott know that

lyxal

morning lol

hyper-neutrino

o/

caird coinheringaahing

'Night :P

A username

11:49 PM

@lyxal Noon, because I'm two hours ahead of you

rak1507

@cairdcoinheringaahing it's still morning for you technically

caird coinheringaahing

@rak1507 I suppose so :P

rak1507

@cairdcoinheringaahing this is a really cool fact

Luis Mendo

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hey, the top-voted answer there was originally mine! :-)

caird coinheringaahing

@LuisMendo The Ramanujan one? That's pretty cool, though I don't understand it :P

I'll award anyone who posts a question with an upvote, I need to test some feeds nonsense :/

Luis Mendo

11:59 PM

Of, course no-one understands it :-P

caird coinheringaahing

One needs to realize that $26390 =5 \times 7\times 13\times 58$ and $9801=99 \times 99$ and $396=4 \times99$. Then, it's obvious. ;-) — leonbloy Sep 27 '13 at 19:09

After reading that, I 100% understand it :P

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