lemme check the metasmoke records

@Adalynn Yeah, about that

@rak1507 maybe they're after me. I once blew 24M on WSOP (fake money obv)

Long posts tho, so you have to scroll to reach the flag button

Wow

@LilChartZ or just press M F

We've developed some userscripts and bots to help with the problem

@hyper-neutrino I should turn that on

Imagine manually flagging spam

~~Are they golfed~~

...and I just dropped a spoon into a bowl of raw eggs becaise I was busy in TNB lol

congratulations!

yum!

Test in the Sandbox

Inb4 caird deletes all of this

→ 10 messages moved to Sandbox

And yeah, Sandbox would be a better place for testing.

PFfffff Lyxal

@Adalynn recently RO election

@Lyxal You know it :P

@new-ish How did I forget about that? :/

Yeah, kinda saw it with HN and WW getting diamonds

@Adalynn I assume you haven't heard of vyxal?

And Caird and Redwolf getting RN

RO

Adam and Bubbler too

@Adalynn room nownership?

@rak1507 incorrect

oh also LOTM is back

@Lyxal right now :P

registered nurse as they take care of tnb

We were trying to get Lyxal to tie with me but it didn't work out

For RO or for Diamonds

RO

@rak1507 ?

Who's LOTM? I don't recognize that name

language of the month

Language of the Month

@Adalynn Me, Redwolf, Adam and Bubbler are ROs; JoKing, HN and WW are new mods

OH

@user RN

and it's now a community event rather than featured on meta, courtesy of Lil ChartZ for the idea :P

@Adalynn lOTm meta post

Oh

Ah

Ooh

@Adalynn speaking of moderators: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/240/conversation/…

Which is why no one says "I'm joking" anymore

Pffff

(disclaimer: I am not JoKing, I am Lyxal)

No one says I'm anything anymore

doesn't even have to be joking anymore

I've heard of Vyxal

@user you're not anything, you're user

has anyone ever seen Lyxal and JoKing in the same room? I thought not.

@Adalynn don't look it in the eyes

i have

@rak1507 Well of course they're the same person, they're both part of the hivemind

Isn't Vyxal the language or something..?

Or am I that out of the loop

Vyxal is Lyxal's golfing language

Yeah

@Lyxal Did HN finally manage to steal your kneecaps? Is that why you've stopped?

Vyxal is like if someone made metagolfscript adhere to the rules

He told me about it over Discord I think

yes. don't touch it with a 10 metre pole it (ab)uses flags *shudders*

@rak1507 yes

@LilChartZ no

@Adalynn yes

That, and I remember hearing about it when I jumped back for a few minutes

Jono 2906? hm nice name :p

I can't read "Jono" without imagining it in an Aussie accent :P

@rak1507 you're just jelly that it's better than apl :p

Pfha

@Adalynn Have you heard about the hivemind?

excuse me what

Oh that's a fun story to tell

Lyxal you have it bookmarked right

@Adalynn read that conversation first

And then read chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/240/conversation/…

Finally, read this

You just had to do that, didn't you?

Yep

it wouldn't be TNB otherwise would it :P

Nope

I'vehad shrimp on my fingers for 10m and couldn't participate in chat :/

And now someone's pinned it to the starboard

@RedwolfPrograms We were talking about you

Classic Lyxal

you mean you need to engage in physical activity to communicate with TNB? I simply project my thoughts directly from my mind

@Adalynn ⌍P

@Lyxal I'm still like 30% sure that's a smudge on my screen

@rak1507 Cool, this looks more advanced Lil ChartZ's brain packet receiver/sender

@LilChartZ Flowey wink goes brrrrr

@LilChartZ ⌍What's a smudge on your ⌍screen? All I see is a "P" :P

You just rickrolls cat

@okie precisely

@Lyxal And I even clicked the third link before second link

has something in particular happened lately that prompted the return of so many people :P it's quite nice to see

@okie well done

Fatalize, Adalynn, Christopher and flawr have all been re-active here in the past couple of days :P

Yeah, remember all those names

Although flawr has stopped by a few times in the past year or so

I take it Adám has been his usual self this whole time still?

Pretty much, yep :P

Some people left the APL Orchard for Matrix iirc

And what's Matrix..?

yeah there's an array language discord server now although mostly it's only used for BQN

have you heard of BQN as well?

Oh yeah

That happened about the time I decided to leave, a little bit before so I vaguely know what it is

Quiche finally in the oven, I can talk in chat now :p

@Adalynn alternative chat network thingy, open source iirc

@RedwolfPrograms Shrimp quiche?

Yep

Shrimp and bacon

I'm hungry now :(

shrimp and bqn?

TBH I can't think of something less kosher :P

Luckily I'll be eating dinner in a few minutes

@user Come on over, I'll share some :p

Ah

Yo Hivemind, why shrimp and bacon? That feels like it'd ruin the bacon.

:P

Shrimp = good, bacon = good, shrimp + bacon = doubleplusgood

the shrimp adds a nice little crunch to it

The shrimp came first, the bacon was added to make it better :p

> Bacon wrapped shrimp. It's my fourth favourite food wrapped in my second favourite food

- Ronald Ulysses Swanson

How are shrimp and bacon not tied for your first favorite foods?

@user Do YoU MeAn good++?

It turns out I didn't mix it well enough, so one of the two was mostly milk, so I had to pick up and transfer over individual egg whites :|

Or ++good?

Pffff

It was a reference to newspeak

i assume you get the reference but in case you don't it's-- nvm. ^

FINALLY ninja'd you

I just now learned that "bit" is short for "Binary digIT"

@RedwolfPrograms not convinced, sure that's not a backronym?

@RedwolfPrograms Nah, it's short for bite

@rak1507 Might be, but I see no reason it wouldn't initiall have been thought of that way

And it makes sense with trits

In the old days, a "byte" was called "bite" because if you took a big bite of those punch cards, you'd end up eating about 8 holes

Is that why the word sizes varied? IBM had different sized mouths?

Indeed

Oh, and as storage got denser we could eat more bits! That's why 64 bit is so common nowadays!

@RedwolfPrograms well wikipedia agrees with you it seems

Pretty sure if I bite a computer, I can get more than 64 holes in one bite

@LilChartZ Stop ruining my fun :p

I feel like if I bite a computer the results will be quite shocking.

@LilChartZ The surgeons would have to make a hole in you to get what you ate out

@LilChartZ This, is the origin of 128 bit computer

Is Okie new?

Yes

Or at least, I classify them as a "new" user :P

Do I qualify as a new or old user?

New-ish :P

:|

they've been around for 42 days so I consider them new

For me it's "veteran" (those who saw the creation of the site), "old" (those from 2013/2014 onwards), "old-ish" (2015/2016), "same as me" (same as me), "new-ish" (a year or so after me) and "new" (within the last year)

It also changes slightly on rep

So I'd be new-ish?

What's the exact range for "same as me"?

Looks like I just about make it into the new-ish category

Actually, I don't, it's been 10 months since I joined CGCC

@Bubbler Anyone with more rep than me cannot be newer than "same as me", regardless of when they actually started :P

Lol

time to answer every single question in APL and get all the bounties

tbf a lot of Bubbler's rep comes from APL bounties

It's definitely based somewhat on "site experience" (which rep is a good indicator) as much as account age

@rak1507 Not all questions qualify for it though

@user Bubbler also has the Socratic badge :P

APL bounties need to be nerfed in the next CGCC patch :P

No no no I need those to get to 10k rep

I wonder how much more rep I'd have if I posted my questions here instead of on codidact

at least 3

Very helpful

@rak1507 If we're nerfing anyone/anything, surely Arnauld gets nerfed first :P

@LilChartZ true

That NPC is too OP

Beat you all to the joke by a week or two :p

One does not simply Nerf Arnauld

Arnauld is clearly like a lvl 20 in the golfer class, the rest of us are still like at least one tier away

One creates a new site and makes sure Arnauld never sees it so that the rest of us can golf in peace :P

would be interesting to make a golfer tier list similarly to how there's a golflang tier list

might be quite hard to do so though

@user Codidact

Much easier actually

No need to extract the language names

Wait never mind

Still have to do that

How do you rank people?

^

Age

Elo

it's much more subjective and harder to do so

Do you relate their average score to their language's average scores?

and an elo system would be harder to do

No

That's what Elo is for

@user Geographical distance from 0.0000, 0.0000

Just consider each combination of two answers on a question in the same language as a game. That's exactly how the language ranking works.

@LilChartZ ಠ_ಠ

null island :P

@RedwolfPrograms that means anyone who golfs in <golf lang> will be 'better' than someone who golfs in <regular lang>

See edit

how often do questions get answered twice in the same language?

very infrequently I'd assume

Older ones? Many times

Fairly often

I tend not to unless I outgolf the existing Jelly answer tho

This way of ranking would probably favor older users since newer users answers wouldn't get picked up too quickly, but that's ok

Compare all of the answers on the question to their respective Elos, and award points for beating it.

Or we could just take their user ids. Newest users win :P

But many "multiple times in the same language" answers on old challenges are by new users doing Python or JS (or whatever well-known language they know)

We could also just have people vote manually but humans are not a good way to judge anything

And I guess at least some people will never post in a language already posted

Using expected byte count with the Elos would work too

@RedwolfPrograms That sounds actually good

@user that would also not be good, I wouldn't want to say who's a 'better' golfer between two people anyway

That's what Elo was designed for I think, predicting the likelihood of one player beating abother

And if they unexpectedly win, count that for much more.

This would probably be significantly easier if such stats were more accessible but unfortunately everything's just in an answer and people are inconsistent with formatting :P

I know that more than anyone here :p

if submissions took like, language from a dropdown, byte count / a charset, code, and then explanations, it would make such stats a lot easier to go through :P

@rak1507 isn't that the whole point of golfing?

I'd suggest using strikethrough improvements, but that doesn't really work :/

@ngn Perhaps, but not for one person to decide (arbitrarily) who is better, X or Y?

^

I've been working on trying to reliably extract language names and byte counts for the last week or so for my (language) ranking system

CMP: In your opinion, who is the best golfer on the site?

Arnauld

Dennis

@LilChartZ ah, i see. yeah, it must be objective

xnor has some incredible answers like this codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/163708/95516 and is also just very good in general, so maybe him

I've always found Arnauld's answers impressive, but I don't know JS enough to ever be properly "impressed" by them, beyond casual "ok, that's confusing. And, clever, I guess". I have (multiple times) seen an answer by Dennis, typically in Python/Jelly, and been genuinely speechless due to how clever the answer is

Jo King is also pretty strong in impressiveness, like in this answer. Also strong in the number of distinct esolangs used

Dennis.

@Bubbler yeah, that's pretty amazing

@LilChartZ got any examples?

@rak1507 I can go looking for some. I generally only upvote answers if 1) they're on my challenges or 2) I find them genuinely impressive or 3) they're the same answer I would've posted

someone should make an 'impressive answers of cgcc' repository

@LilChartZ Me Both Arnauld and Dennis, I guess, and a few others whom I don't remember right now

@rak1507 That'd be awesome

@rak1507 It'd be very (•_•) / ( •_•)>⌐■-■ / (⌐■_■) impressive

Made a gist for that. Can y'all edit it?

Actually nvm someone else should just make a proper repo

i don't think you can make gists editable? not sure

or maybe just a meta post?

@rak1507 Classic example. A couple more

Honestly, this is one of the best abuses of Jelly parsing/chaining I've ever seen

pretty cool answers

Ugh I just need one more review and there hasn't been one all day

Last one was 5 hours ago, and that was the edits HN was doing earlier

am i the only one who thinks making up a golfing language and packing it with primitives isn't particularly clever

No, but I disagree :p

@ngn I think it's slightly more complex than that

Yo, ngn

Until you've tried to make a golfing language it seems easier than it is

Oh yeah, definitely

Chaining builtins together to solve a challenge isn't especially interesting, and, unfortunately, that's what a lot of challenges are in golfing languages. However, having the insight to recognize that an entirely different method is the best/shortest way is truly impressive

I see trivial and boring answers in pratical languages just as often as golfing languages, but golfing languages allow much more creativity IMO

@Adalynn yo, welcome back :)

I generally don't give much of a crap about any answer that just does exactly what the challenge describes, including a lot of my own. The answers of mine I'm most proud of, and the answers I'll upvote the most, are those that properly find a creative, clever or "abusive" answer ("abusive" meaning that it "abuses" tricks/bugs/whatever in the language to be shorter)

Guess you recognize me then

@Adalynn yep, i was following some of the conversation earlier

Ah, thought you recognized the icon or whatever

Still the same freaking icon, I am never going to change that

Imma go post some spam on my socks, that should generate some reviews

ಠ_ಠ

May the 4th be with y'all :P

Time zones exist

The 4th is less about star wars and more about Human Geography for me :p

@Adalynn UTC time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, Analysis II for me.

APHG is so insanely difficult...luckily the college I want to go to accepts a 4 (highest score being 5) on it, unlike most of the others

Ah, all my AP courses in high school were just math

I'm taking Human Geography and Computer Science Principles this year (9th grade), planning on taking AP tests for like 7 different subjects overall lol

@LilChartZ yeah, one can be creative in any language, but i have more respect for golfing in popular languages that the golfer doesn't control

Well, golflangs are not controlled by most of the golflang users

They're usually controlled by an individual golflang user

My view is that golfing languages basically just abstract away some of the boring parts. You don't need to focus on spending 50 bytes on something like finding the nearest prime, you just let the golflang handle that and work on the interesting part

@Bubbler most golflangs have <=1 users :)

Doesn't Mathematica also do that? @RedwolfPrograms

:P

Jelly doesn't have a builtin to determine if an image is of a goat :p

Ah

I see you know þe olde mèmes of þe olde dayes as well? :P

See, my golflang is designed to fix that. It's so important all of the code points are more refined variations of that most important operator.

In order to represent numbers, you take a picture of multiple goats.

@ngn But then, many golflangs have zero active creators :)

@RedwolfPrograms it might get one, if someone posts a goat-detection challenge (not just up vs down goats), and if the language author was still active

A good golfing language doesn't change much IMO

@RedwolfPrograms if you have a challenge that has two parts A and B, if they're builtins, the short way in a golflang will probably be to do A+B, but the short way in a regular language is almost certainly not A+B

Key word is if they're built-ins

'You don't need to focus on spending 50 bytes on something like finding the nearest prime' a golf lang has an easy way to do that for you, a regular language, you'd have to adapt the logic round the rest of your solution, which is fundamentally more interesting imo

I don't really think either are better honestly. It depends on what you like about golfing, which varies by the user.

I remember all those syntax golfsI've done at some point

Where it was like

One of them was about 100 bytes or so?

@ngn If it makes you feel any better, I golf almost exclusively in Jelly (when using golfing langs), and that hasn't been updated since 2019 :)

right, jelly is a bit of a special case - stable and relatively popular among golflangs

05AB1E, Husk

It says something that the top three shortest golflangs are all stable, popular golfing languages :p

Based on 2016-2020 data though. 2021 data isn't included at all

Why?

That's how SEDE works

Only gives 50k results

Just...do what I did

Modulo

Then join them together

It takes five minutes

I can send you my copy

@LilChartZ i think the perfect language for golfing should be popular (to encourage competition), stable (to prevent divisions based on version), not controlled by a codegolf user (to prevent adaptation to the popular style of challenges posted here), and maybe a bit verbose (to leave room for multiple steps of outgolfing and creativity in combining parts of the solution)

Good luck finding someone who knows about how to make a golfing language who isn't a CGCC user

it doesn't have to be a purpose-built golfing language, and ordinary programming language would do

@ngn It's also one of those languages that, personally, makes me genuinely impressed. A lot of 05AB1E seems to be "push various stuff to the stack, and use the builtin that takes 15 inputs and produces the output". Husk is often "create an infinite list, find the first element where x". Jelly, even with it's often convenient builtins, always seems like more of an exercise in succinctly composing the perfect functions

Golfscript

@RedwolfPrograms send data pls.

@ngn Honestly, Jelly meets a lot of those. I dislike it's verbosity enough that I'm creating a "spin-off" that reallocated the builtins to have shorter more common ones

@Lyxal I'll have to do it tomorrow

the problem with jelly's verbosity is usually it gets beaten on specific easy challenges by 05AB1E on the basis that the exact same approach is used but they have different allocations between 1- and 2-byte builtins lmao

@ngn I think a better approach than "isn't made by a code golfer" is "made with a general purpose usage in mind". Dennis used to use CJam for pretty much everything code based, and I believe he strove to make Jelly as general purpose as he could

The fact that the code page is supposed to be able to be typed, and the builtin allocation, makes me believe that Dennis 100% made Jelly to be more general purpose than most golfing langs, probably due to the amount he used CJam in non-code golf contexts

i've used jelly for a couple of non-golf-related quick scripting things :P but i don't have the right keyboard layout lol

Same :P

Exact-keyboard-layout-for-Jelly gang :p

That's usually what I've used APL for, competitions, codegolf, and some quick stuf

I often try to make Jelly programs that are ascii-only, so I don't have to bother opening the atoms page :P

Mostly class-related to est matrix-related shenanigans

well, APL is entirely not a golfing language, so

:P

Yeah I know

Y'all need to stick your tongues in

or at least, that's what i've been told ;)

The point about the keyboard still stands

@cairdcoinheringaahing how do you make a program that is also a code golf user? ;)

@Adalynn I just remembered you missed the time user redwolf and I all switched usernames and pfps for a day

^^ why I think Dennis made Jelly more general purpose

not convinced :P

Who switched with who?

Redwolf -> Lyxal, Lyxal -> user, user -> redwolf

Unrelated, but it is almost 3am here and my phone is on 8%, so I'm going to go sleep. o/ and it was good to chat again @Adalynn!

o/ for now

goodnight

Good to talk to everyone else again @cairdcoinheringaahing

ah yes calculus time

very fun

@Lyxal Huh?

calculus is great when it's not repetitive and formulaic

So

@Adalynn uni

Calculus isn't great then, rak?

:P

Ah, uni

well, not in any sort of school situation