The Nineteenth Byte

Veskah

00:15

Neat

New Main Posts

00:31

0

Q: Compute the Sierpiński curve

The Sierpiński curve is a space filling curve that fills a square. Your job is to compute the Sierpiński curve. Now, you might be saying "didn't we already have a challenge like this"? Well, we have had challenges to draw space-filling curves (like Draw the Hilbert Curve). As far as I know, howe...

New Sandboxed Posts

01:16

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Radiation is Painful code-golfquineradiation-hardening A radiation-hardened quine can take a hit and stay standing, but nobody ever said that the quine can't be a wuss about it. For this challenge, you should write a quine that: If no characters are removed, prints its source code normally...

MilkyWay90

02:51

I am trying to make a "Hello, World!" program in this

Quintec

@MilkyWay90 Um, you'd need to give us some more information... what does that do...

It initializes literally a random tape with random eveything?

ASCII-only

@MilkyWay90 good luck lol

@Quintec yes. why

MilkyWay90

03:18

@Quintec Yes.

Quintec

@ASCII-only Hmm, seems only slightly hard to code in.

ASCII-only

yeah. like Seed

feersum (and very few others) can do it

Quintec

And feersum refuses to share his methods :(

MilkyWay90

03:49

But its pretty easy

you give a predetermined seed

I think I already have a program to print "h"

I'm just trying to golf it

MilkyWay90

04:02

184
114
IUH

Is the program to print 'H'

@Quintec So now you know, it isn't hard to code in

@Quintec Yeah I really wish he/she shares him/her methods

Veskah

The only thing better than IE11 is trying to remotely use IE11

Deadcode

04:25

@Neil Yes, I've used it before too, but forgot in this case.

And I even forgot to port it to the molecular lookahead versions

MilkyWay90

pastebin.com/0iVGNT2D

Is a Hello, World! program for this

or at least im testing it right now

but run-length encoding would compress this a lot

Deadcode

Aaand the variable-length lookbehind and molecular lookahead versions are tied in bytes now!

MilkyWay90

@Deadcode what version?

Deadcode

@MilkyWay90 A well linked challenge

MilkyWay90

@Deadcode Oh ok

PhiNotPi

04:59

I've recently gotten interested (or rather re-interested for the 17th time) in creating a new programming language with interesting termination-checking and type-checking properties.

It's not really a new idea, but the concept is to create a language that never has run-time errors, never infinite-loops, and makes it easy to reason about other properties of the program.

Such a language obviously cannot be Turing-complete, but there's still a lot of useful applications for it.

Unfortunately right now I am very deep in the rabbit hole of typed lambda calculus, primitive recursive functionals, system F, type inference, decidable theories, etc. and I don't understand anything.

feersum

06:00

An easy version to start with could be a language where you can only have one recursive function and some subsequence of its natural number arguments is required to be lexicographically decreasing.

Deadcode

07:27

@PhiNotPi It sounds like you are describing regex ;)

ASCII-only

@PhiNotPi idris?

news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7568783

ASCII-only

07:43

also dodos

Deadcode

@ASCII-only How can a language have provable termination but have to actually check and prove that functions terminate? I would think the only way would be to be primitive-recursive (or less powerful), but then it is impossible to not terminate eventually, and no proving would be needed

ASCII-only

08:28

@Deadcode well. the language has provable termination, the compiler proves that a program is valid for the language. or something like that

RosLuP

08:51

Is it true that in Finland schools until 13 years old students not have votes?

what they are doing?

ASCII-only

@RosLuP not have votes???

RosLuP

This speak about that students until 13 year in Finland schools have not vote... Is it true? tuttoscuola.com/finlandia-un-modello-scuola-alternativa

ASCII-only

ouch

Adám

@RosLuP What type of voting are you talking about?

Elections in Finland

There are four types of elections in Finland. Each Finnish citizen at least 18 years of age has the right to vote in each of the elections, which decide the following: the president , the parliament, the MEPs , and the municipal and city councils. Finland has a presidential election every six years, in which a President of Finland is elected in two rounds on the basis of a direct popular vote. Parliamentary elections are held every four years with a system of proportional representation in multiple seat constituencies. Finnish parliamentary elections use the d'Hondt method. Finland has a multi...

> Each Finnish citizen at least 18 years of age has the right to vote

ASCII-only

@Adám on whether to continue to secondary education or learn a trade

RosLuP

09:03

Vote possible I meant"score in tests"

Adám

@ASCII-only @RosLuP No no, be careful about automatic translations. They don't have "grades", meaning the teacher will not assign a score (number of points, letter, etc. e.g. 75% or "B+") based on the student's performance.

ASCII-only

:| that's a weird school system

Adám

@ASCII-only Why? Grades don't make much sense for such young kids anyway.

Fatalize

Have had grades since I was 6

made sense to me

RosLuP

@Adám yes "grades in school" ... For me one school without grades is not a school...

Adám

09:12

@RosLuP OK, but when does "school" begin?

RosLuP

@Adám it begin after 5 year old for me...

Adám

@RosLuP But that's arbitrary. You could say that "school" in Finland doesn't begin until age 13, if you equate "school" with "grades".

@RosLuP Btw, I wouldn't just trust that news article. While I don't know Italian, Google Translate gives Unlike Italy and many other countries, there are no private schools in Finland. All compulsory schools are public, which makes the system very uniform. but Wikipedia says There are few private schools. The founding of a new private comprehensive school requires a decision by the Council of State.

RosLuP

Yes I say their sys education can not be ok... Possible the rich goes there in private schools...

Adám

@RosLuP Not true (from Wikipedia): However, even in private schools, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited, and selective admission is prohibited, as well: private schools must admit all its pupils on the same basis as the corresponding municipal school.

@RosLuP You say their educational system cannot be ok, but UN disagrees with you.

RosLuP

09:32

Read en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Finland it seems grade exists and are in the end of period time (with possibly to repeat each matter)

Adám

> During the first years of comprehensive school, grading may be limited to verbal assessments rather than formal grades. The start of numerical grading is decided locally. Most commonly, pupils are issued a report card twice a year: at the ends of the autumn and spring terms. There are no high-stakes tests.

Fatalize

@RosLuP You seriously need to work on your English. The majority of your sentences are incomprehensible.

Adám

@Fatalize I suspect RosLup uses automatic translation to access SE.

They may not know any English at all. If so, then I laud the persistence. It must be very exhausting.

Fatalize

Learning English would be less effort than trying to convey and decypher messages with an automatic translator

ASCII-only

but learning english takes time. and you start at 0 skill

Fatalize

09:37

It is immensely useful though

ASCII-only

that it is :P

Adám

@Fatalize If you are (an older) adult with a job and family, learning a new language may be a tad too much.

ASCII-only

~~duolingo 5 mins/day~~

Fatalize

Hence why you should stay alone and not lose all your free time because of kids/wife :p

RosLuP

I understand but not remember how build phrases (words, words construct, grammar etc even letters in the words ,

)

computer helps to me in show correct letters in the words...

Adám

09:47

CMP: What are your normalised comfortable Read/Write/Speak/Listen languages sets? E.g. I have R={1,2,3,4}, W={1,2,4,5}, S={1,2,4,5,6}, L={1,2,4,5}

@RosLuP You may want to explore back-translation try to improve the quality of your output. Keep rephrasing until the back-translation is acceptable. Because, as Fatalize wrote, it can be hard to understand you at times.

@RosLuP If spelling ("letters in words") is hard for you, does that make it hard for you to use programming languages that are primarily written as English words and abbreviations? Does APL then have that additional benefit to you?

RosLuP

Reduce is not one handicap...

Programing is not one infinite use of words but about how write all with few words...

The problem is to find the right words...

Fatalize

@Adám wat?

What do the numbers correspond to?

Adám

@Fatalize Distinct languages. So 1 from R is the same language as 1 from L.

RosLuP

So at end I learn only subset of languages as C++ of APL the part I can write all easy... For C I believe know enough (and it is all useful to learn)

Fatalize

@Adám …why not use the language name though?

Mine would French/English in all 4 sets anyway

and German in the "Completely forgotten" set

ASCII-only

10:20

@Fatalize i guess language isn't important here so using numbers = less useless information?

@CorporalTouchy it's a valid snippet that evaluates to a function (lambda function), and that's what counts

Adám

10:48

@Fatalize Makes it easier at a glance to see the structure. Yours is of course "boring".

J. Sallé

12:59

@Adám R={1,2,3,4}, W={1,2,4}, S={1,2,4}, L={1,2,3,4} where 1 is Portuguese, 2 is English, 3 is Spanish and 4 is German.

Adám

@J.Sallé :-) So basically Spanish is input only.

J. Sallé

Exactly. Output is iffy at best

dzaima

13:53

@RosLuP I'm curious - what do you think is the purpose of grades? Personally (from ~5 years of experience of constant fear of failing russian and completely ignoring grades in pretty much every other subject) I don't think they're anything more than an anxiety cause..

@Adám my answers are boring - R=W=S=L={1,2} :p

Adám

@dzaima If 1,2 are not English and Russian, then ^^ clearly failed.

dzaima

@Adám it's practically a miracle I haven't been stuck perpetually in 5th grade :p

J. Sallé

I'm obviously not an expert on the subject, but from what I know about the russian language, it should be fairly simple to learn

but then again, I'm a fast learner when it comes to languages

Adám

@J.Sallé With your current basis, you should easily be able to pick up most western European languages.

J. Sallé

Yeah, that's actually a goal of mine :p

dzaima

14:05

@J.Sallé it may be, but combining the facts that i didn't know anything beforehand and the first teacher i had didn't know any languages beside russian (no idea how she even got the job..), and all years after have had teachers which either always speak russian (i.e. i don't learn anything) or they don't teach anything, i feel like i have a case for myself

Adám

@J.Sallé French, Italian, Occitan, Catalan, Sicilian, Galician, Sardinian, and Dutch, Flemish, Frisian, Luxembourgish, Scots, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic, Faroese are waiting for you!

J. Sallé

@dzaima I thought you spoke Russian natively, now I see what’s the problem there hahahahah

Adám

@dzaima Wait, what is your mother-tongue?

dzaima

@Adám Latvian

Adám

@dzaima But you don't know Latvian?

dzaima

14:20

@Adám I do know it :|

J. Sallé

@Adám fun fact, my spotify playlist has songs in some of these languages, namely Italian, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic and Faroese

Also Danish

Adám

@dzaima So {1,2} does not include Russian‽

dzaima

@Adám yes.. 1=latvian, 2=english, i thought that was obvious from the message above

Adám

@dzaima I just took it that you did in fact end up knowing Russian well. My bad.

@J.Sallé But Danish is not intelligible.

J. Sallé

@Adám I actually couldn't tell Danish and Faroese apart when I first started listening to that kind of music

Adám

14:23

@J.Sallé Oh, odd. Well, Faroese speakers may have a Danish accent due to, well, being Danish.

Quintec

@Adám R=L={1,2,3}, W=S={1,2}

J. Sallé

@Adám I think it was the pronunciation of certain words that made them sound the same. Some of the words in Ramund hin Unge (sung in Danish) sound a lot like the words in Sinklars Vísa, sung in Faroese.

When you read the actual lyrics, they seem like very different scripts, but sound remarkably similar.

Adám

@J.Sallé Interesting. For me, they look similar, but sound vastly different.

J. Sallé

14:39

Probably because you speak Danish? Hahahah one thing I noticed very early was that Fáróésé líkés díácrítícs

Adám

@J.Sallé Not all diacritics, just ´. But it also uses ð (which may look "diacritic"). Most noticeable for me, other than those, is extreme frequency of "y" and to some degree "i".

I can get basically follow a Faeroese text, only missing words here and there, completely missing grammatical nuances like tenses.

J. Sallé

@Adám yeah, I meant the acute symbol specifically :p. All in all, I'd like to actually learn it some day

If only for the sake of learning a new language which is reason enough for me hahahah

Adám

@J.Sallé Hold on, Ramund hin Unge and Sinklars Vísa are neither in Danish nor Faeroese — they are both in Gøtudanskt which is basically the Faeroese dialect of Danish. No wonder they sound the same!

J. Sallé

@Adám I think that would depend on who's singing, right? I know that the band I listen to, Týr, sings Ramund hin Unge in Danish because of an interview I saw where they talked about it. Not sure about Sinklars Vísa though

Luis felipe De jesus Munoz

Hi guys. Yesterday there was a code challenge contest in my university. There is no problem posting the challenges from there here right?

J. Sallé

14:48

But you might be right, I'll look into it when I get home. Pesky dialects!

Adám

@LuisfelipeDejesusMunoz You may have to look into copyright and attribution. Or at least ask.

> The traditional Faroese way of singing hymns (the Kingo song) uses gøtudanskt. The metal band Týr's songs "Ramund Hin Unge" on the album Eric the Red and "Sinklars vísa" on the album Land are also sung in Gøtudanskt. source

J. Sallé

@Adám Huh, weird. I guess I'll have to rewatch that interview then hahahah

Luis felipe De jesus Munoz

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Tetris! Final height Tetris is a video game that became popular in the 80s. It consists of placing a series of pieces with different shapes that fall on a board, so that they fit in the most compact way possible. In this problem we will assume a sequence of pieces that fall, each in a certain p...

New Sandboxed Posts

DID SOMEONE SAY BUTTER?

New Main Posts

15:05

2

Q: Borderless table

In this challenge you are going to place letters from the alphabet in a Cartesian plane and output the result as a text. Your input will consist in a list of list with 3 parameters: X coordinate Y coordinate Letter How? We know that a Cartesian plane contain 2 axes \$(X, Y)\$ and 4 quadran...

code-golf

RosLuP

@dzaima grades in school make to know student know if he/she did right or wrong and what to study better ... So that makes to study more...

dzaima

@RosLuP a simple verbal "you did good" or "you should improve X" is plenty enough for that. Also a grade only tells you how well did you do, not what exactly were your mistakes. I'm not saying tests are bad, but scoring them whole with a number that determines whether or not you pass the year just adds unneeded stress

Adám

@RosLuP But to very young children have that kind of organisational ability?

RosLuP

How students know they study enough?.... Grades

Adám

15:20

@RosLuP "you did good!"

RosLuP

Yes all one know votes if numeric 1..10

dzaima

@RosLuP "have I been studying enough to know even 5% of the subject in Russian?" Hell no. Did I manage to get a 4/10? Somehow, yes.

RosLuP

15:37

@dzaima do you have problems in get 6/10 (or sufficient grade) in some Russian subject?or in Russian 4/10 is a sufficient grade?

dzaima

@RosLuP Russian is the subject I'm worst at. 4/10 is the minimum called "a pass", so I'm happy with it considering I should be getting constant 2s by my opinion. a 4 is "good enough" for me

@RosLuP For me usually a test is given right at the end of a topic, meaning that the grade doesn't tell what I should do since the required study amount almost always depends on the topic

RosLuP

Ok Russian subject (as language)

R=L=W=S={} :)

dzaima

@RosLuP I have one Russian language subject, everything else thankfully doesn't touch it

RosLuP

I had always problems with foreign languages especially English (but Latin too)... A little better in mathematic... It seems they expose me to foreign languages when I was old or not to much time in study them when I was 5..13

@dzaima so 4/10 in one subject there is sufficiency?

dzaima

@RosLuP an average of 4/10 in a subject is sufficient to move to the next grade without obstacles

RosLuP

16:01

When I was in school with final grade < 6/10 one had to repeat all subjects or the subject one has that grade

The max grade I get was 9 in math the minimum I think 2-- in write exercise translatikn Latin (for the school 12..18)

PhiNotPi

16:24

@Deadcode Here's one paper I found which talks some about the issue (pdf warning) citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/…

The basic idea is that there are other forms of recursion which are more permissive than primitive recursive but still restricted enough that they always terminate. So you can still implement things like the Ackermann function.

There's no strict upper limit on complexity... you can always devise a new, more complex form of recursion that always terminates but isn't permitted by the existing rules. So the question becomes one of striking the right balance.

Quintec

@dzaima What's the motivation to do better?

PhiNotPi

16:59

If we're talking about the pros/cons of assigning grades... I feel that the more important differences between systems have to do with how grades are used and which sorts of assignments are considered more important.

I feel that, regardless of how you convey it in words, grading should have some combination of an absolute metric (you did great, you got an A, 94/100, etc.), as well as some constructive feedback explaining why they did good/bad and what can be improved.

But the more useful questions are... do you actually record final grades and use that to determine what courses students take in the future / where they can go to school? When it comes to final grades, is it based on the student's mastery at the end of the course, or is it based on things like homework which is completed throughout the course, etc.?

RosLuP

17:26

Here people (me too) not consider or assign max depth level to recursion: But it is possible, example in C: f(int){ static unsigned c; if(endrecurision){c=0; return result;} if(++c>10000){c=0; return error;} ...return f(something);}

For me the final grade count something only if is the mean of every vote student get everyday...

I was in you fear recursion...

Fear == "aver paura"

perhaps better "if I was you I would fear recursive function" because their deep depends from input and could be possible write input make recursive function overflow the stack...

Luis felipe De jesus Munoz

18:09

Hi guys. I have a question. If in my challenge i forgot to mention one special case that would invalidate some of the answers, how should I proceed?

I feel like making some radical change now wont be good

J. Sallé

@LuisfelipeDejesusMunoz indeed it wouldn't

Don't be a x-triple dot

It's not well-received to make radical changes, but well, if the answers can be adjusted with ease, then it's safe to go ahead and edit now.

It depends on how hard to cover that "edge-case" is

J. Sallé

I don't think invalidating current answers is good practice unless it's something trivially modifiable

Don't be a x-triple dot

I concur

Luis felipe De jesus Munoz

well, what happens is with [[2,0,"a"],[-2,0,"b"],[0,8,"HI"],[0,-1,"c"]] in my latest challenge

the correct output would be with the empty lines in between "HI" and the below text but some of the answers do not add the empty lines

this answer would be the correct output

but there are some answers like this that would be invalid

Don't be a x-triple dot

18:17

Umm

How is the output of the Charcoal program not covered by the current challenge statement?

J. Sallé

The thing is, is the specification of the challenge supporting your version of correct output and you just didn't add this test case?

Don't be a x-triple dot

I mean, wouldn't the Python solution for example already be invalid?

J. Sallé

Exactly ↑

Luis felipe De jesus Munoz

that's the thing. When writing the challenge it didnt come to my mind some case like that until Destroigo asked me in the comments

and no one also told me that in the sandbox :c

Don't be a x-triple dot

But, given the current challenge statement, which of the answers is correct?

DJMcMayhem

18:21

CMC: (easier version of a recent challenge...) Write a program that, when given no input or 0 outputs itself. If given a positive integer, your program must output any other quine. Every integer must correspond to a unique valid quine.

Luis felipe De jesus Munoz

@Don'tbeax-tripledot It would be the charcoal one

DJMcMayhem

The only restriction on the quines is that they must be valid and distinct from each other

Don't be a x-triple dot

@LuisfelipeDejesusMunoz Then, if it's just a new test case you add without modifying the challenge statement, add it, let the authors of the invalid answer know about this issue and perhaps apologise in case you haven't made it clear enough from the start (if applicable, I haven't read the challenge)

J. Sallé

@LuisfelipeDejesusMunoz then it's not a modification to the challenge, in my opinion it's just adding a test case which you hadn't thought of before

Don't be a x-triple dot

@Don'tbeax-tripledot I will post the Call for Nominations within the next 2 days so make sure to vote the proposals you like until the deadline!

MilkyWay90

18:31

hello

DJMcMayhem

@Don'tbeax-tripledot Oh wow, I didn't realize you were xcoder. I was 100% convinced you were Wheat Wizard from the weird name/avatar haha

J. Sallé

@DJMcMayhem same here

MilkyWay90

18:47

I am trying to golf this

"python.exe has stopped working" for my bruteforce

Adám

@DJMcMayhem But WW is curently the same, but in Latin.

Don't be a x-triple dot

@DJMcMayhem evil grin

Virtual cookies for those who get the joke in my username without looking at my About me

Adám

@Don'tbeax-tripledot looking at "About me" Nice!

@Don'tbeax-tripledot Hey, I didn't earn that!

Don't be a x-triple dot

Tfw you don't read the message and just assume what the response is... But you're wrong :/

dzaima

19:15

@Quintec right, that would be a good answer to my original question. Still, the way grades are done seem to me as giving a negative for doing bad rather than a positive for doing good, which doesn't really motivate to do better but to not do worse, and the difference in thinking means a lot

PhiNotPi

19:31

I've keep the same generic username and avatar for 7 years for maximum brand identity.

New Sandboxed Posts

20:26

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Show me today's month While I was messing about with calendars on a web page I was working on today, I came up with an idea for a challenge. Given an input of a date in any format of your choosing, output the calendar for the month of the date. Example February 7th 2019 [0,0,0,0,1,2,3],[4,5...

Erik the Outgolfer

20:54

@PhiNotPi so... you changed it 4 months after you joined back in 2011? :P

PhiNotPi

@EriktheOutgolfer Well, there was one time a couple years ago that SE or Gravatar changed their algorithm, so all the default avatars changed. Luckily I kept a backup copy of my avatar so I could change it back.

DJMcMayhem

@EriktheOutgolfer I did not :P

Erik the Outgolfer

no, I'll not stick my tongue out in return...

@PhiNotPi oh so you don't have a Gravatar anymore?

ngn

@J.Sallé how to irritate europeans - see baltics :)

Erik the Outgolfer

hm, looks like it

PhiNotPi

21:07

@EriktheOutgolfer probably not

Erik the Outgolfer

yeah, it looks like your avatar is hosted over imgur now

Skidsdev

I had the same gravatar right up until the hats started, then I changed it to a screenshot of my hat on the avatar

Adám

21:33

@ngn Clearly, it is impossible to irritate Danes.

Don't be a x-triple dot

22:05

@Adám "How are you?"

Adám

@Don'tbeax-tripledot ?

Don't be a x-triple dot

Apparently there's an article about this: google.ro/amp/s/matadornetwork.com/abroad/… :P

I don't think that's too accurate though, it's kind of stereotypical-ish

Adám

@Don'tbeax-tripledot #3 is true, the rest will just show you're a foreigner, or unusually friendly, it won't annoy anyone.

Deadcode

Is it possible to pass arguments to the compiler in TIO for languages where the "Compiler flags" box is missing?

Erik the Outgolfer

@Deadcode use Bash instead... :P where's the issue? you may get better support over talk.tryitonline.net (Dennis does complain about the wrong room... ;))

mınxomaτ

22:18

In a meeting today, someone, instead of saying "we have an HTTP API" said: "You can do curls". Which is now my favourite phrase.

13

Veskah

23:22

@mınxomaτ Get fit, we brogrammers now

ATaco

23:46

"What do you mean I can't multi-cursor in a word document"

12

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