The Nineteenth Byte

ASCII-only

00:17

wait. there are two people who prefer golfing in Attache?

@ConorO'Brien :| you can pretty much tell who's who by the languages they use

ok so who here is the heretic using 4 spaces with JS (note: i don't expect an answer, it's anonymous anyway)

@PhiNotPi *a quartata

Zacharý

And some by age and/or combination of language and age (in the case of Adám)

ngn

@Zacharý how do you know it's not me? :)

Zacharý

⎕IO←1

ngn

@Zacharý ah, ok... :)

Zacharý

There's a reason ngn/apl is ⎕IO←0

ASCII-only

00:26

@Zacharý what's the reason

Conor O'Brien

@ASCII-only lol yeah basically

Zacharý

IDK,

ASCII-only

@ConorO'Brien e.g. the only two people in the world who use Charcoal anymore :P

Zacharý

(AKA creater and user)

Riker

@quartata absolutely

ngn

00:30

@ASCII-only I think having a choice for ⎕IO is bad. 0-indexing makes more sense (to me), so I allowed only 0. It also makes APL easier to implement.

Zacharý

Mean: 22.25, Median: 17.5. Whoever said the mean what higher than the median, you were right.

ASCII-only

@ngn :P but doesn't that mean it doesn't comply to spec

Zacharý

@ASCII-only That's a little (not a lot, though) like getting BASIC to conform to spec :P

ngn

@ASCII-only what spec? there's the APL2 spec but it's behind a paywall

ASCII-only

@ngn wait what :|

ngn

00:31

and who cares, I only wanted to teach myself how to implement languages :)

Zacharý

@ASCII-only You don't expect everybody to program in K+R C, do you?

@ngn That's pretty much RAD's purpose as well.

Is the stddev sample? It should be.

Can you sort them?

ngn

@ASCII-only yes, APL has a spec (it's an ISO standard, not by Dyalog) but you have to pay to download it! it's ridiculous

Conor O'Brien

@Zacharý like the graph?

Zacharý

Yeah, insert a column that's just the ages sorted

ASCII-only

@ngn well of course the spec is not by Dyalog >_>

Zacharý

00:37

wut.

ngn

@ASCII-only I wanted to say that explicitly because people often mix up "APL" and "Dyalog APL" because of Dyalog's current monopoly in the APL market

Zacharý

Someone's programming language of choice is Pyth. Not Python, Pyth

ASCII-only

@Zacharý what about it

Conor O'Brien

if malty was here that'd make sense

ASCII-only

more builtins + less typing

Zacharý

00:38

._.

ASCII-only

pretty sure some of the mods use CJam/Pyth for algorithm-heavy scripts often

Zacharý

But it isn't their favorite golfing language ._o

ASCII-only

well clearly because the age of ASCII golflangs has gone :P

Conor O'Brien

sighs rip

besides MATL

Zacharý

(And J/K if you're being lenient)

Conor O'Brien

00:40

not a golflang :P

Zacharý

"if you're being lenient"

Conor O'Brien

if

Zacharý

What's dead: GolfScript

ASCII-only

@Zacharý ?

re: charcoal verbose mode, both of the people that use it use it for basically every submission >_>

Zacharý

Yeah, it is pretty useful

The age distribution is definitely skew right as all heck

ASCII-only

00:51

@Zacharý of course. this comes up every time TNB talks about ages :P

Zacharý

If we get rid of those outliers and 33 year old: I think it'd be skew left

ASCII-only

@Zacharý outliers?

Zacharý

Median +- 1.5*IQR

(Dataset, not people)

ngn

the best thing about tnb: you're chatting with someone and you're thinking this must be a maths professor or someone with 20 years of experience in the industry, and suddenly they are like "cya guys, gotta do my homework" ...

14

ASCII-only

@ngn yeah Dennis is one of the few people here with a (primarily) math degree IIRC?

ngn

00:59

@ASCII-only I've no idea

Zacharý

@ngn He probably is.

I'm pretty sure he's the only professor though

Riker

iirc both Wheat and 0' have/are working on math degrees

Zacharý

*Hat

And who is that latter person?

Riker

somebody who isn't in TNB too mcuh

ngn

@Riker Leaky Nun too, according to his profile

Leaky Nun

01:05

right

Zacharý

When was the last time he/she was in here.

Riker

0'? idk

in contact regularly tho

FreezePhoenix

01:21

Anyone know how to do this better:

  this.health = maxHealth
  this.maxHealth = maxHealth
  this.attack = attack
  this.selected = false
  this.nameColor = nameColor
  this.manaCost = manaCost
  this.name = name
  this.inHand = inHand
  this.deck = deck
  this.manaManager = manaManager

ti's javascript inside of a class constructor

ASCII-only

@FreezePhoenix just pass in an object, and do Object.assign(this, opts)

well hmm. idk if that would work

FreezePhoenix

Writes up a test class

It works...

and its still an instance of the class...

Zacharý

Don't use classes /s

FreezePhoenix

@Zacharý praytell why?

Zacharý

"/s"

I'm in ImportError hell

FreezePhoenix

01:27

?

ASCII-only

@FreezePhoenix of course :P it just copies properties over

@Zacharý how

FreezePhoenix

Night everybody...

Zacharý

@ASCII-only I don't even know.

It keeps saying RAD_IO is not defined. But I imported the file that contains it in about every file.

ASCII-only

@FreezePhoenix one thing. if you're using a new enough version of JS then you can do ({health, foo, bar}) in the arglist and that should restrict properties copied to the ones in the arglist

@Zacharý paste the file that contains it?

Zacharý

I'll just upload it to bitbucket, I've finished implementing some atoms anyways

@ASCII-only Here. Whenever I try to run RAD_Main.py without line #8 of RAD_Atoms.py, Python freaks out

ASCII-only

01:35

@Zacharý which files import atoms

@Zacharý :| where did you go

quartata

@Zacharý circular dependency

Anonymous

Don't do from RAD import * in RAD_Defaults.py

quartata

The reason why namespaces are one honking great idea is because they delay the resolution of a name

If you do from asdf import x x has to be well defined already

Anonymous

Yeah, doing a lot of global stuff and doing import * everywhere is bad

Zacharý

@Mego That'll break RAD_MISMATCH

quartata

01:41

If you import asdf then do asdf.x it's not a problem

Star imports are even worse since they hide this from you

They grab whatever is currently available which may not be what you expect

ASCII-only

@Zacharý well just don't circular import

Conor O'Brien

use a sane language

ASCII-only

well actually

you can circular import

just don't do it at the top level

quartata

@ConorO'Brien have you seen what circular imports are like in Node lol

Anonymous

Circular imports are perfectly fine in Python unless you also use from x import * everywhere

quartata

01:44

Downgoat literally couldn't work on Cheddar for like a month because of one

ASCII-only

@Zacharý Charcoal has circular imports

Conor O'Brien

1 min ago, by Conor O'Brien

use a sane language

Zacharý

I got it fixed now.

ASCII-only

@ConorO'Brien Yes. sane languages wouldn't break on circular imports

quartata

@ConorO'Brien fair. The problem really is that it offers from at all

Anonymous

01:45

If you just do from x import y or import x, you will be perfectly fine, because x.y won't be evaluated until you need it

Zacharý

I just axe * from all the RAD_Defaults imports

quartata

Ruby has less problems because it doesn't offer that

Zacharý

@Mego Already done

quartata

@Mego from x import y will break if y isn't defined yet

Anonymous

@quartata That's true, but if used sparingly, you can avoid issues

Hat Wizard

01:49

@Riker Nice profile pic. I'm flattered.

Riker

thanks man

it's all you

quartata

is it weird if DJ calling my mind a disturbing place is probably the best compliment I think I've ever gotten

8

Riker

kinda yes

since I think you taking that as a great compliment is weirder than your mind

quartata

well it's not actually the best compliment but it's certainly the most interesting

Zacharý

(It's actually all TW [inspiration, at least])

ASCII-only

02:06

@quartata but isn't that basically just sugar for import x; y = x.y?

Downgoat

can anyone golf this:

for [ js_source in static/lib/axtell~*.js ]; do
  JS_SOURCES+=(-F axtell.vihan.org$js_source@$js_source)
done

command "${JS_SOURCES[@]}"

I feel there should be some syntax shorthand to avoid the loop but not sure of how that would work personally

quartata

@ASCII-only it is, but it resolved x.y right away

ASCII-only

@quartata doesn't that mean from is better :P

Anonymous

@ASCII-only No. from x import y creates a copy of x.y in the global namespace. So if you do import x; x.y = something, the value of y within the x module is modified.

quartata

Thats also true

Anonymous

02:09

58

A: Use 'import module' or 'from module import'?

There's another detail here, not mentioned, related to writing to a module. Granted this may not be very common, but I've needed it from time to time. Due to the way references and name binding works in Python, if you want to update some symbol in a module, say foo.bar, from outside that module,...

ASCII-only

> basically

my point is that offering from is a good thing :|

Anonymous

The copying is quite important, and is often the source of headaches - modifying x.y unintentionally causes confusing bugs

Anonymous

Offering from x import y is a good thing. Offering from x import * is a trap

Zacharý

._.

@Mego (obligatory meme)

quartata

Especially since __all__ is such an ugly hack to get it to play nice

ASCII-only

02:12

@Mego IMO in a sane language import * would work too

quartata

It can't possibly

It can only import what it already there

In the event of a circular dependency that's nothing

Anonymous

The two choices you have for import * are a) what Python does, and b) what C does (dumping the entire source file in-place)

quartata

Since the module hasn't been fully evaluated yet

Pavel

@Mego But C has includes

That require complete paths

quartata

@Mego which only works because once something is included it's in the same scope

So you never have to include something twice

ASCII-only

02:14

@quartata can't you lazy load, then resolve all circular imports after the rest of the modules are finished loading

Anonymous

@Pavel That's what I'm talking about. Also complete paths are completely unrelated to the discussion at hand

Anonymous

@ASCII-only Possibly, but that's not how it was designed. I expect that would cause more complications and newbie headaches while not solving all of the problems.

quartata

@ASCII-only It would be quite the surprise

ASCII-only

@quartata ?

Pavel

@Mego C's #include doesn't allow globs, right

You can't specify *, it doesn't make sense

You can't specify it anywhere

ASCII-only

02:15

@Pavel but C doesn't have namespaces...

quartata

If a module depends on the side effect of importing another

ASCII-only

so all includes are star includes

Anonymous

@Pavel Yeah, but that doesn't really matter. from x import * in Python is basically just #include <x.h> in C, except with different semantics.

quartata

Which sounds gross but is actually quite common. SmokeDetector has one, where importing a module registers a bunch of commands

ASCII-only

@quartata well you can make it consistent behavior + add a warning

a lot of the time a module doesn't depend on side effects too. so IMO sometimes it should just work

FreezePhoenix

02:19

@ASCII-only I think I can do 1 + '1' === 2

quartata

I would say that eager loading is a more expected behavior

If you really wanted to wait, you'd use a regular import

Assuming you're aware of the semantics at all

Most people won't care and the former is much easier to implement

ASCII-only

@FreezePhoenix ?

how

quartata

is this Perl or JS?

ASCII-only

JS

you can tell because of the strict equals

@FreezePhoenix :| this is a terrorist group

FreezePhoenix

JS

Autocorrect strikes again

ASCII-only

02:22

@quartata well that would work too. eager load first module as far as possible, load second module until part the first module needs is defined/load first module until part the second module needs is defined, finish loading second module, finish loading first module

FreezePhoenix

My writing direction seems reversed on jsbin...

That's a pain.

ASCII-only

@FreezePhoenix :|

FreezePhoenix

@ASCII-only the following should work:

ASCII-only

@FreezePhoenix just backspace until you delete the control char that's doing that

FreezePhoenix

@ASCII-only no it's worse the keyboard is messed up in jsb i & I'm on mobile.

ASCII-only

02:26

@FreezePhoenix refresh?

FreezePhoenix

Nope

The following produces this result(I think... I can't test on mobile apparently...):

ASCII-only

@FreezePhoenix use jsfiddle then. or glitch. or TIO

FreezePhoenix

String.prototype = Number.prototype

Hacky though

Downgoat

@FreezePhoenix u wot

at least object.assign?

FreezePhoenix

No...

That wouldn't work

Array.prototype === []

Object.prototype === {}

Downgoat

02:36

@FreezePhoenix what are you trying to do?

FreezePhoenix

Get this: 1 + "1" === 11

Pavel

Yes

That is in fact not a thing

FreezePhoenix

It doesn't work anyhow.

Pavel

1+"1" is "11"

ASCII-only

@FreezePhoenix yeah doesn't work

to make it work you'd need to override operators

and there's no way to do that

FreezePhoenix

02:40

I know

How are you guys?

user202729

02:58

codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/revisions/16447/2

Zacharý

03:08

[] + []

Array(16).join("String" - 1) + " Batman!"

Downgoat

@ASCII-only well you can sort of...

ASCII-only

@Downgoat yeah. sort of but not really

FreezePhoenix

@Zacharý you just watching that video?

@user202729 you are in the wrong place. Try SO

Zacharý

No, I remember it from about two-three years ago when I watched it

FreezePhoenix

@user202729 stackoverflow.com

Wait silly me nvm...

user202729

03:14

Do you think this can make a good atomic code golf? I have a linear time solution, but with high constant factor.

ASCII-only

@user202729 couldn't you use a threshold to decide which algorithm to use :P

Conor O'Brien

03:31

CMC: given two integers A and B, output the first 9 terms of an arithmetic or geometric progression containing both integers.

FreezePhoenix

I once had the DND black razor...

And then the DM had me give it away...

user202729

Jelly, 5 bytes. Take input in reverse order.

Conor O'Brien

there is no order technically. the sequence just has to contain both inputs

Nathan Merrill

theoretically, some sequences are totally valid no matter the input

Conor O'Brien

ok, amendment: within the first 9 terms

user202729

03:34

@NathanMerrill "arithmetic or geometric"...

Nathan Merrill

hmmm...well, except for negative numbers

@user202729 right, I was just thinking 0,1,2,3,4,5

user202729

J equivalent: ]+i.@9*- (8 bytes)

Conor O'Brien

erm

huh

TIL @ treats right nouns as constant functions

PhiNotPi

can someone link me to TNBDE?

user202729

ppcg.starmaninnovations.com/tnbde

Conor O'Brien

03:39

perl 6, 16 bytes: {(@_...*)[0..9]}

ASCII-only

03:57

@NathanMerrill min(a, b), min(a, b) + 1, ... :P

user202729

04:38

Q: for(int i=3;i-->0;)myvector.pop_back(); or myvector.erase(myvector.end()-3,myvector.end()); ?

quartata

04:50

Latter for performance I'd suspect

You'd have to try

user202729

Or myvector.resize(myvector.size()-3)?

quartata

Harder to read

.erase is certainly the easiest to read

Pavel

I'd write an extension method (if C++ supports those), I like to seperate out even really small chunks.

user202729

@Pavel Extension method? Like Javascript assign-to-prototype?

Pavel

I don't JS

quartata

04:56

@Pavel total overkill for erasing the last 3 elements

Pavel

@quartata Not for 3, but for an arbitrary amount

If this was C# I'd call it SkipLast

quartata

that's what erase does

FrownyFrog

helped a guy with his Java homework on reddit, after 1 hour I realized he has no clue what he's doing

Pavel

Ideally there would be a function that only takes a single int which in this case would be 3.

FrownyFrog

but he followed everything for an hour

just typing arcane symbols into the compooter

now i'm depressed

but now I'm not because I vented

@ConorO'Brien since november 2017

Pavel

05:00

What the hell is going on with freenode

I'm being shown as the only one connected to all the channels, and I can repro on multiple devices and networks

user202729

@FrownyFrog close as "lack minimal understanding"

ASCII-only

@FrownyFrog :|

and then there's me: yesterday doing an assignment (in java) i started two days before it was due and i was like "this is terrible" so i added features hidden behind a CLI flag

(that's almost certainly going to cost me marks. oops.)

FrownyFrog

if (countryName.equals("Canada")) {
    medalsCanada = athleteArray[i].getMedalCount();
    medalsCanada = 0 + medalsCanada;
}

in what world is he not trolling?

Pavel

wat

ASCII-only

wat indeed

on a side note, this kinda looks like two of the assignments from my uni (both in languages other than Java so not the same assignment). i guess it kinda makes sense here because the 2018 CWG was like 100km away

DJMcMayhem

05:41

@ConorO'Brien BrainFlak, 55 bytes: tio.run/##SypKzMzTTctJzP7/…

And by 55, I mean 56 obviously

Neil

07:52

@ASCII-only (where) are you seeing the results?

user202729

08:19

@FrownyFrog Why 0+ :/

H.PWiz

10 hours ago, by Conor O'Brien

tnb stats

user202729

08:35

C++ CMC: Take a vector v and a number i as input, return the i'th element (0-indexing) from the end of v.

(for example f(v,0) == v.back())

For Jelly: Ṛị@

ASCII-only

@user202729 but C++

user202729

Or <something here>ị.

ASCII-only

@user202729 :| something here

user202729

@ASCII-only Well because my CMC was intended to be C++, so it specifies 0 indexing, but Jelly has 1 indexing...

ASCII-only

@user202729 why are you answering in Jelly though :P

@user202729 looks like there's mo builtin method, so here

user202729

08:46

@ASCII-only No way to click on the link on half screen....

ASCII-only

@user202729 half screen?

user202729

The browser window takes half of the screen.

Coincidentally it's also exactly the length of the chat message.

ASCII-only

@user202729 why does that not let you click the link :|

that's a tiny screen

here

user202729

So when I try to hover over the link the flag/star/reply menu appears.

golf pls...

Fun thing is there is a builtin method. Not exactly builtin, but shorter than that.

@ASCII-only 1280×800.

ASCII-only

@user202729 ~~anything less than Full HD is small~~

that is actually tiny

i used to have a $400 laptop. it had a 1366x768 screen (as is standard for low-end laptops nowadays)

user202729

08:53

> nowadays

Anush

hi

@user202729 how about this reasoning?

@user202729 let each node in a graph represent a different n-b bit string. We connect two nodes if that can't both come from the same n bit string. Now we find the largest clique in the graph

user202729

About the challenge? It seems that LP is a good way to estimate a lower bound (to help brute forcing), but I remember trying to implement simplex algorithm twice and failed twice.

Anush

@user202729 Doesn't that answer the question?

user202729

Not exactly failed, but I gave up before I finish it.

...

Sounds reasonable.

It's only a lower bound.

Anush

doesn't my method give you the exact correct answer?

and its complexity is far better than we had before

Stewie Griffin

09:00

Unfun fact: None of the numbers in the cumulative sum of 1,1,2,3,4,5,6,7... is/are(?) divisible by 3.

I thought I had a bug in my code... :/

Anush

@StewieGriffin "are divisible" -> "is divisible" :)

ASCII-only

@Anush it's "are"

Anush

none is short for not one

not one of them is....

user202729

Largest clique is ... well, still NP-??? (I can't understand complexity theory), but better than set cover.

ASCII-only

@Anush maybe it was once upon a time, but not anymore

Anush

09:02

@ASCII-only ah..well I disagree

@user202729 it is np-hard but way better than we had before

and also there is lots of library code for it

if that helps

user202729

@Anush But is it correct...

Anush

@user202729 See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… section "Finding maximum cliques in arbitrary graphs"

user202729

lookup dict Both should be correct.

Anush

I believe so and we can try it using our favorite graph library (e.g. igraph)

user202729

Believe is not enough...

Anush

09:04

users.aalto.fi/~pat/cliquer.html

user202729

@user202729 [](auto v,int i){return v.rbegin()[i];}

Anush

@user202729 ok let's try to prove it. First: the set of all n-b strings is sufficient to cover all n bit strings with b bits deleted by definition

@user202729 so the set of nodes in the graph is sufficient

the idea is that, for each n bit string we are choosing exactly one n-b string as its "representative"

of course many different n bit strings might get the same representative

Stewie Griffin

@Zacharý Late reply: I think Luis Mendo is an associate professor too...

Anush

so there are two things we need to check.. a) every n bit string actually gets a representative, that is they actually cover all the n bit strings and b) there wasn't a smaller set of representatives that would also have covered all the n bit strings

Erik the Outgolfer

09:43

@StewieGriffin I think his last name is Tomás

so, it's Mr. Tomás, not Mr. Mendo

Mayube

Had a panic moment there and thought I'd locked myself out of my computer because I broke my lightdm greeter :P

ASCII-only

@StewieGriffin not in maths apparently

@Mayube 10/10 great

Erik the Outgolfer

yeah it's a polytechnic

ASCII-only

also you're back yay (I remember seeing that you were back a few days ago in the transcript)

Mayube

tfw you forget linux can totally run without an interface. Had to boot in recovery mode, log in as root from the commandline, and fix the config file

I am back!

Henlo

I see you've improved your avatar too

oh hey I passed 5k rep when'd that happen

user202729

09:50

> improved

Not sure if it's an improvement....

Mayube

^w^ is better than ><> for an avatar imo, especially given afaik he didn't create ><> :P

I'm also finally rewriting braingolf because boy is that interpreter a pile of trash. Unfortunately progress is slow because I'm bad at programming

true, some worse than others

user202729

Finally solve it........

At least it's linear time and operations. Constant factor is about 14. HUGE.

(I was talking about this)

ASCII-only

10:09

@Mayube yeah I didn't

@Mayube :|

@user202729 constant factor?

@user202729 if you mean operations the i'd only consider like >1k huge :P

New Sandboxed Posts

10:41

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Is this hard enough? Should I convert to block sort? Should I keep the fastest code part? I have a linear-time linear-space solution, but it has huge constant factor, besides it's not easy to implement. It's possible to reduce the constant factor but then it's even harder to implement. ...

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Divide two strings code-golf string One day, I saw the challenge to multiply two strings and I thought I might be able to do one better. That challenge was fake. It was elementwise maximum. It was not real multiplication. So I set out to make something real. Real division between two strin...

user202729

@NewSandboxedPosts :/ Next time I will never put sandbox notes at the top of the post.

Soaku

Py: I've got a file a that imports all required modules to work, and each of those modules imports a and uses each other module. PyCharm doesn't warn about anything, but when I execute it I get name '...' is undefined. What I'm doing wrong? :v

user202729

Execute what?

ASCII-only

@Soaku post code pls

Soaku

wait, i brb

ASCII-only

10:49

@Soaku if it says name is undefined then you're almost certainly just not importing whatever you're using

Soaku

@ASCII-only In my case, in one file I use the class String, I'm importing the importing module, which imports it at the end

ASCII-only

what errors

Transcript for