The Nineteenth Byte

Οurous

07:00

@ASCII-only I don't see anything that would initialize a Rational from a Real

ASCII-only

>_> crap

Οurous

Also, you should probably add a similar if isinstance(other, Expression): check to the top of Rational's __truediv__ like its __mul__ has

ASCII-only

@Οurous :thinking: how though

Οurous

@ASCII-only Well, I'd start with if isinstance(other, Expression): return other <operator that __truediv__ stands for> self

Just like with the addition and multiplication of Rational

ASCII-only

@Οurous that... doesn't work

Οurous

07:08

@ASCII-only no? Expression seems to have a __truediv__ implemented.

ASCII-only

@Οurous yes? but a/b != b/a

Οurous

@ASCII-only Oh. Right. Yes. That.

What if you did other / Rational(denominator=self.numerator, numerator=self.denominator)

ASCII-only

@Οurous :O smart

DLosc

I'm not following the conversation very closely, but are you perhaps looking for __rtruediv__?

ASCII-only

@DLosc yes but it's not implemented lol

also yeah i don't know what i did to charcoal while you weren't looking at it

Οurous

07:14

@ASCII-only it looks like Expression does have an __rtrudiv__

ASCII-only

yes. but it basically flips it back around

Οurous

Yeah that wouldn't help.

DLosc

So wait. Are you trying to implement dividing a Rational by an Expression?

ASCII-only

@DLosc Yes

DLosc

Ok, and it's not possible to have Rational.__truediv__ do the calculation because...?

ASCII-only

07:21

because the expression has to run before we know what type and precision it is

the expression then passes the precision needed to the Rational in question

DLosc

Okay, so does that mean you need to return some kind of compound expression maybe, which can be run/evaluated later?

ASCII-only

@DLosc Yeah, if you put Expression on the left it will handle that

DLosc

I.e. if the division calls a member function of Expression instead of a member function of Rational, everything works?

ASCII-only

@DLosc yes

DLosc

So then use Expression.__rtruediv__.

I dunno if you'll have to call it directly, or if you can use NotImplemented or something like that in Rational.__truediv__ to force the operator to use the r version.

ASCII-only

07:27

@DLosc calling it directly seems like the better option? Python does prefer exceptions, but I'd like to avoid that whenever possible

DLosc

@DLosc Yes, it's NotImplemented

@ASCII-only It's not an exception, you return it. But the code might be clearer if you called Expression.__rtruediv__ directly. I don't know which is better style.

ASCII-only

@DLosc Oh, right. Also I don't know which is better style either :/

Οurous

07:40

I like how we can all have similar issues implementing fundamentally different languages, using fundamentally different languages.

ASCII-only

@Οurous similar issues?

Οurous

@ASCII-only I'm neck-deep rewriting the runtime for Dirty (which was barely working-ish anyway) because of an issue exposed when I tried to run tio.run/##S8ksKqn8/9/QQCFawVDh0drlCroKsf//AwA. That loops over the number 10, decrementing it once each time and then exits. It's fine with 9. It's fine with 2^27 when I build the interpreter to force it to run with that value. It has issues when the loop forces it to evaluate 10.

Which is 1 * 10 + 0

DLosc

08:47

CMP: I have a unary operator pop that removes the first element from a list and returns it, and another unary operator dequeue that removes the last element from a list and returns it. What should I call a binary operator that removes the element at a given index from a list and returns it? (I've decided that overloading pop, as in Python, is not an acceptable option.)

Unihedron

kopy

user202729

remove perhaps?

Adám

@DLosc pick

user202729

I think pick is x => x[random(len(x))]?

Adám

@DLosc pluck?

DLosc

08:51

@user202729 remove is already in use: it takes an item and a list and returns a new list with all instances of the item removed.

@user202729 That's randomchoice, actually.

user202729

removeAt? removeIndex? (you may not like camel case)

DLosc

@Adám These are good possibilities.

user202729

@user202729 I think camel case is RemoveAt?

@user202729 This is lowerCamelCase.

DLosc

(The full names I'm using here are not actually the real operators, BTW--they're just mnemonics for 2-letter operator names PO, DQ, RM, and RC.)

Adám

I call them dromedaryCase and CamelCase.

user202729

09:07

After renaming it worked. It's... weird.

Mr. Xcoder

09:49

Hm, SE sites load far slower than usual.

Mr. Xcoder

10:04

@DLosc popAt / pop_at / select / pick?

Οurous

10:14

@DLosc grab?

I'm fond of my MACRO_CASE. You know. For when JUSTCAPITALCASE isn't good enough because you have too many letters for it to work.

Neil

@ASCII-only else test case

ASCII-only

oh, huh

Mr. Xcoder

Is it just me or all SE sites have been obnoxiously slow for about an hour now? (All the web pages I usually browse load very fast, but SE is terribly slow for me – excluding chat)

Wait, huh:

> We apologize for any inconvenience, but an unexpected error occurred while you were browsing our site. It’s not you, it’s us. This is our fault. Detailed information about this error has automatically been recorded and we have been notified.

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder ~~Blazingly fast for me.~~ Should I blame caching? Yes.

Mr. Xcoder

Well ^^, it's not me.

Οurous

10:26

@Mr.Xcoder Fine for me, I just hard-refreshed to make sure.

Martin Ender

@Mr.Xcoder no, I'm having the same problems

Mr. Xcoder

Now it loads, but they seem to have fixed the issue. That message isn't showing up for nothing.

Martin Ender

(not on every page load, but on most of them)

Mr. Xcoder

Same here

Martin Ender

but yeah now it seems faster again

or not

Adám

10:27

@Mr.Xcoder I get that on SO, but not on PPCG.

Neil

@ASCII-only I was looking at my recent Charcoal answers in case I got any inspiration, but all I found was that I couldn't work out how to write

ＧＨ✳✳§⟦⟦↑L↓¬⟧⟦↓↓⟧⟦T↓→⟧⟦T→¬⟧⟦↑↑¬↑⟧⟦←↓T⟧⟦T↑L⟧⟦→↓↓⟧⟦+L↓⟧⟦+↓T⟧⟧Ｎ³θ

in verbose mode

Mr. Xcoder

Although it loads (sometimes), the inbox doesn't open at all, I cannot load more comments, I cannot open the reputation tab, etc.

ASCII-only

@Neil haha (also what is that? O_o)

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám Nah, I cleared the caches before asking

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder I figured. But I should blame caching for the fast load.

Mr. Xcoder

10:29

Ah I see

I'll try to open Meta to see if there's any reaction

Unihedron

sometimes I think I'm good at golf

then I see Sp3000 was already here before me for ><> and he did it in 28 chars

Mr. Xcoder

Nope, no report on Meta

Neil

@ASCII-only it prints the input digit as ascii art

also, does Charcoal have a Filter function?

ASCII-only

@Neil Kinda? see here

Neil

10:45

oh, and I remember another bug

so, in the body of a while loop, the result of the while expression is saved in a variable, right?

if the while expression includes e.g. map, then the first time it runs, it tries to use that variable, because it hasn't been grabbed by the while loop yet, but the second time, it tries to use the next variable

or have I told you about that one already?

ASCII-only

@Neil wait what :/

Neil

@ASCII-only relevant quote from revision history: I really want to write Ｗ⊖⌈ＥθＬι but unfortunately this doesn't work due to the way while loops and maps consume iterator variables.

ASCII-only

@Neil what do you mean by comsume

Neil

well the iterator variables are used in turn so if you write for (9) for (9) the outer for uses i and the inner for uses l

ASCII-only

@Neil >_> sorry my brain isn't working today. what exactly do you intend to do

Neil

11:02

well, if I write while (decremented(Maximum(Map(q, Length(i))))) Print(i);

the first time through the loop while hasn't grabbed i yet, so map uses it to iterate over q, but the second time, it has, so map uses k instead

ASCII-only

@Neil ah right, well, i've fixed the while problem (kinda hackily), so it should be fine once i figure out what's wrong with if/else. (btw can you write a testcase for that too)

Neil

a test case for while? I'm a bit busy right now, so I'll probably forget

user202729

11:59

What is the proper way to use roslyn with msbuild? (C# compiler)

I created an executable that calls the correct csc and symlink it to C:\Windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\csc.exe.

At least it works.

Lembik

12:43

hi all

how is ppcg doing these days?

Erik the Outgolfer

not exceptionally bad :P

two new mods were elected, DJMcMayhem and Mego, and Alex A. has resigned from his mod position

ASCII-only

Alex A. has evolved into Mego

Lembik

@ASCII-only could you explain that please :)

oh I see

Erik the Outgolfer

he's referring to stuff people are saying about one bird becoming another...

Lembik

anyone asking fastest-code questions since I took a break?

Martin Ender

12:47

occasionally

Erik the Outgolfer

you mean restricted-time? I don't think so

Martin Ender

that, too

Lembik

maybe I should come back :)

the problem is that some people hated a particular type of question I liked

Erik the Outgolfer

you mean restricted-time?

or something else?

Lembik

"Your program needs finish within 10 seconds on a reasonable machine for any valid input." I would have been killed for that! :)

@EriktheOutgolfer I meant something a little different. I would like to ask, for example, a fastest-code question for computing the permanent of a matrix

now some people will complain that "Is it a question about complex arithmetic or a question about computing the permanent? You shouldn't mix"

that is they want all questions to test exactly one thing

Erik the Outgolfer

12:51

well, multi-part challenges are off-topic for a reason

but, if you use the sandbox first, you are in a less dangerous position :)

Lembik

it's not multi-part

sorry if I wasn't clear

I don't find the sandbox helpful sadly. The number of people who comment is very limited

Erik the Outgolfer

yeah, I don't think anybody will blame you for that though :)

Lembik

it's a good challenge by the way for those who like to get down and dirty with simd :)

user202729

@Lembik Me too. That's why I try to review posts in the sandbox as much as possible,

but ~~sometimes~~ most of the time I'm too lazy to read the challenge description.

Lembik

or who have a language they like which is simd friendly.. if such a thing exists

user202729

12:54

We need description-golf.

Lembik

it's amazing how bad gcc and llvm are at complex arithmetic optimization

Erik the Outgolfer

you're actually not the first one to "propose" that lol

user202729

Oh yes, review the sandbox.

Erik the Outgolfer

when I review the sandbox, I go by titles first, and if a title grabs my interest I read the description

@DJMcMayhem FYI, this is what we call Tungsten

@user202729 what?

user202729

Sorry, nothing.

Mr. Xcoder

13:33

@labela--gotoa The new one (WIP) is just much, much better.

@EriktheOutgolfer Same here

ASCII-only

> retried

Mr. Xcoder

Yeah that is status-by-design :P — I no longer participate on SO

New Sandboxed Posts

13:49

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Convert a number to Golfish Golfish is a completely made up language. Write a program that takes an integer and returns that number in Golfish words. Golfish is a Senary (base 6) system of number with numbers structured in a similar way to English. 0 to 6 Single digit numbers use a single wor...

user202729

@NewSandboxedPosts And which language is not made up?

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Be careful with spelling ><> and Gol><> - many battles have been fought against heretics who spelt them fish and Golfish :P

Mr. Xcoder

Why exactly o_O?

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Because people had nothing better to do

Anonymous

@user202729 Lisp. It's the source code of the universe.

Erik the Outgolfer

13:55

@Mego I've already advised the OP to make a note because 1) I don't want him to be treated as yet another heretic and 2) honestly though, somebody may be confused thinking it has anything to do with Gol><>

Mr. Xcoder

@Mego I would have believed you if planets were parenthesis and spaces were stars...

J. Sallé

@Mego That strip is so great

Erik the Outgolfer

...which is made-up by the way, as every other programming language has ever been, is, and will always be

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Legend has it that the next universe will be coded in Brain-Flak

Mr. Xcoder

... or in Actually :P

>_> My German teacher just sent us some additional homework via WhatsApp and some dumb colleagues thanked her...

Anonymous

13:59

@Mr.Xcoder I don't want to live in a universe coded in a language I made

Mr. Xcoder

Dangit I should have named the challenge Me Go Mayhem Pairs... :P

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mr.Xcoder yeah that's a bit offensive :P

Mr. Xcoder

Completely off-topic CMP (don’t ask why): What’s your favourite type of soup, if any?

Poke

chicken tortilla

Unihedron

corn

goes well with anything, like my bland, generic life

Mr. Xcoder

14:06

@EriktheOutgolfer :O Did you just outgolf Dennis in Jelly in a math challenge... Well done

Erik the Outgolfer

I don't consider Dennis golfing in Jelly more special than for example Mego golfing in Actually or DJMcMayhem golfing in V or Brain-Flak...

3

Anonymous

@Mr.Xcoder Onion soup. Specifically the onion soup that my favorite Japanese restaurant serves

Unihedron

the meta game: you get 1 point for every answer you post in the same thread where Dennis submitted an entry and your submission is better than his best entry

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mr.Xcoder no soup

user202729

@Unihedron Just imaginary point, of course.

J. Sallé

14:11

@Mr.Xcoder green broth. It's a brazillian soup made of potatoes with spinach, collards and sausage.

HyperNeutrino

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Soup_Processor [no-onebox]

Mr. Xcoder

Yummy those all sound tasty 😋 My personal favourite is Broccoli soup

Poke

@EriktheOutgolfer why not

they made those langs so they're more familiar with them

HyperNeutrino

do you think I'm any more familiar with Proton that anyone here?

Terminal-based Minesweeper - improved rendering so it no longer flickers on large grid sizes :D

Erik the Outgolfer

Dennis made Jelly, Mego made Actually, DJMcMayhem made V and Brain-Flak

Mr. Xcoder

14:14

@Mr.Xcoder My dad doesn’t even want to hear of that lol :-)

CJ1992

Hi All, I keep looking into trying to do golfing challenges (you might recognise my name I've been in here a couple of times asking for advice) but I've been struggling with solutions in my language (C# .NET Core) and I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for a language I could get familiar with to start golfing?

Poke

@HyperNeutrino if you wrote it, then yes

HyperNeutrino

pfft. I wrote it and I don't even know how it works

Unihedron

@CJ1992 I like ><> and Gol><>

Mr. Xcoder

I was constantly outgolfing Hyper in Proton back in the day :-)

HyperNeutrino

14:16

@CJ1992 For getting into actual golfing languages, I'd suggest you start with something that's less impossible to understand such as 05AB1E, or another stack-based language

Erik the Outgolfer

@CJ1992 for starters 05AB1E is very good

don't start immediately with e.g. Jelly

Anonymous

@CJ1992 I recommend starting with a language that you're familiar with already (so C# for you), and learning the tricks. Reading through codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/173/45941 is a good start

Poke

i agree with mego

HyperNeutrino

that's a good idea as well

Erik the Outgolfer

also what Mego said, don't be afraid to post golfed solutions in your own language!

Anonymous

14:18

I primarily got into golfing by learning how to golf in Python, then branching out into esolangs/golflangs

user202729

What's wrong with golfing in C#? Nothing.

CJ1992

Thanks! I've only been programming for a year or so, so a lot of the things that people use in their answers baffle me, and there is also mostly (if not all) complex questions

Unihedron

try searching by answers:20

I've been doing that to look for simple questions since I'm also a noob

HyperNeutrino

Keep in mind that you don't need to get the shortest code to have a very good solution with a good ideas. Shortest is really based on the language and the problem, but getting to know your familiar language a lot better can be very advantageous. It's especially helpful to learn tricks in your own language before starting other languages especially because that way you can learn the golfing mindset before learning a whole new language.

Anonymous

@CJ1992 Start simple. Solve easy challenges (like fib, primality, etc.) without looking at the existing solutions, and then compare and learn

user202729

14:19

Actually most challenges (especially the HNQ ones) are easy. Only Tetris is hard.

Anonymous

Also take a look through the first 50 or so problems on Project Euler and write golfed solutions

HyperNeutrino

freecell is a bit hard too :P

Mr. Xcoder

@CJ1992 I would recommend you to start learning the tips in a practical language you already use, and after you get decently familiar with the golfing practices, you can go ahead and learn a slightly easier to understand golfing language — I have a few recommendations: For beginners, I’d recommend 05ab1e, Pyth or Gaia. After that, you can move on to something slightly harder like Husk or, if you are ambitious, Jelly

Unihedron

@Mego Actually this is an interesting idea. I'd like to see a "Project Euler Golf" github repository.

each dir for a day and each file name for a language, etc

Anonymous

@Unihedron I'm pretty sure there's a few floating around

Mr. Xcoder

14:21

@Unihedron there is one already

Erik the Outgolfer

@CJ1992 also, you may have also thought something like but...solutions in my language are like always longer than others! ...so? that's a very common issue people have in here, and sometimes it has made them leave this site because the "golfing languages" are just indigestible for them, but there's no problem in submitting solutions in it. in fact, you're encouraged to do so, your contributions will still be important

user202729

... Jelly is the only golfing language I know of. I didn't know it was hard.

codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/6985 [no onebox]

Anonymous

@user202729 It's not hard if you have a background in functional programming already. If you don't, then the concepts will be foreign to you, and it's harder to learn.

Anonymous

That's why I recommend learning "practical" functional programming languages like APL, J, and Haskell before Jelly

New Main Posts

0

Q: Assemble an XOISC program

Recently I solved this challenge, for which I created XOISC - a very low-level functional language. To compile a program (written in the absurdly high-level lambda calculus programming language) it must first be translated into an expression consisting only of X combinators and from there it can ...

user202729

14:22

I think I knew Mathematica at that time.

J. Sallé

@CJ1992 What Erik said. Maybe even if your answers aren't the 'golfiest', you can still have some insight or a trick people didn't think of

CJ1992

I don't mind having long answers (it's better than my current no answers right? :D ) I just don't want to post an answer that's a really long way around because I didn't know of something that existed

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego unfortunately it would still be hard to learn with a functional programming background, the automatic type inferencer is kinda buggy

user202729

@NewMainPosts >.< I remember seeing that in the Sandbox but didn't want to read the description. feels bad of myself

Anonymous

@CJ1992 We're also pretty helpful around here. People who are familiar with the language will usually post comments with suggestions to help newcomers.

J. Sallé

14:24

@CJ1992 but you should. If you notice, most answers have comments from people that improve that answer. You can learn a lot of stuff by posting your solutions and taking a look at the feedback from other people.

user202729

Then golf in BF. There are only 8 symbols, it takes a second to learn all of them. Now you don't need to worry about not knowing anything.

Anonymous

I think I shortened my first solution by over half from suggestions alone

J. Sallé

@Mego ninja'd ⍨

CJ1992

I guess that's definitely a way to learn new things

HyperNeutrino

@J.Sallé how to find APL programmers 101

Anonymous

14:25

We don't bite :) We try to welcome newcomers and help them to keep our community alive and growing

Erik the Outgolfer

@J.Sallé that looks very Adámish :P

label a -- goto a

@Mr.Xcoder Nice

user202729

(that's selfie symbol in APL if I recalled correctly)

label a -- goto a

But still, I don't like such menus on mobile :/

They take too much place

J. Sallé

@HyperNeutrino @EriktheOutgolfer I learned from the best >.>

dzaima

14:25

@CJ1992 I've seen a couple times answers from experienced users here whose answers got shortened down 2x from others' suggestions, so don't worry about that, especially as you're new to golfing :p

Anonymous

And if someone does bite, we descend upon them with righteous fury and tell them to Be Nice

user202729

(now Mego is a mod and can remove not-nice comment immediately)

Unihedron

github.com/Qwerp-Derp/GolfAllTheEulers this

is not very expansive

CJ1992

haha

J. Sallé

@Mego you should name your new hammer Mego's Righteous Fury™

Unihedron

14:27

but I see MrXCoder in the commit log so I assume it's the one you're talking about

Anonymous

@user202729 Yep. I have a Righteous Fury button that does stuff like putting Lego bricks underneath people's bare feet as they are walking.

Erik the Outgolfer

@J.Sallé he doesn't need to name it, one should know Mego is a Benevolent Penguin for Life :P

behave nicely, and Mego will never hurt you :)

J. Sallé

@Mego that's evil beyond evil.

@EriktheOutgolfer even so, if you're not nice, Mego will descend upon you the Righteous Fury.

Anonymous

@J.Sallé With great power comes great coffee addiction

J. Sallé

(and probably ninja some other mods in the process :p)

HyperNeutrino

14:29

ban-ninja? (has that ever happened before o_O)

Erik the Outgolfer

one thing I advise everyone: never. mess. with. the. penguin.

Anonymous

@HyperNeutrino There have been times when mods race to hit the nuke button on spammers

Anonymous

Ok, I really need to get to work :P

J. Sallé

@HyperNeutrino it happens fairly often in Twitch chats I mod (although admittedly it's not the same kind of modding)

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego you mean raise the holy flag ;)

Adám

14:31

@Mego Wait, what? PPCG is your workplace!

Erik the Outgolfer

the nuke button isn't only for spammers

@Adám no, it's not, mods aren't employed by and don't represent SE in any way

dzaima

@Adám PPCG is your workplace :p

Erik the Outgolfer

> I acknowledge and agree that I am an independent volunteer moderator to Programming Puzzles & Code Golf Stack Exchange and I am not an employee, agent or representative of Stack Exchange Inc., and I have no authority to bind Stack Exchange Inc. in any manner.

codegolf.stackexchange.com/legal/moderator-agreement

Adám

@dzaima Nah, it's the place where I work, not my workplace.

J. Sallé

@EriktheOutgolfer pretty sure it was a joke

Adám

14:36

You guys do realise that I do more for Dyalog than just code-golf, right?

J. Sallé

@Adám The webinars are a clear example of that

Adám

@J.Sallé Yes, with user meeting presentations and workshops. But I also do customer support and help develop tools (both internal and external). Oh, and I'm pretty active in language design and development too. Not to mention QA/testing.

user202729

@MartinEnder How could you generate the green text on the edges (edge names)?

[Hexagony, Esoteric IDE]

Martin Ender

link?

J. Sallé

@Adám I meant that as a joke :p I know you do a lot of stuff. I actually thought you were exclusively a language designer from the things you tell us about v17.0

Martin Ender

14:46

@user202729 oh, I see what you mean

I thought you were wondering about the green specifically, but that seems to be the default colour

while running the program, when the MP is on the edge you want to annotate, go to Memory visualisation -> annotate current edge

user202729

Thanks! (the menu is to the right of the Help menu so I did't notice it)

Adám

@J.Sallé I'm the only APLer at HQ, so I get to try out the bleeding edges… Ouch. I actually have 17.0 as admin mapped to a keyboard shortcut (bypasses UAC prompt) so I can restart it every time it crashes.

J. Sallé

@Adám which is not often, I hope?

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám wait, your coworkers have no idea of APL? o_o

user202729

@Adám What is HQ?

@NewMainPosts Don't post please.

New Main Posts

14:56

-1

Q: further refine a SASS mixin for a font-awesome before/after usage

In my SASS I use font-awesome declarations all over the place. I'm in love with it. I've created a SASS mixin for the usage I started with the following: @mixin font-awesome-icon($type, $unicode, $size, $margin, $color, $weight) { @if $type == 'after'{ &:after { content:$unicode; ...

css

J. Sallé

@user202729 Dyalog Headquarters in Bramley.

user202729

CMP Do you think that having low privileges limit is good or bad?

Dennis

Bad.

Martin Ender

Bad.

Erik the Outgolfer

bad, bad, bad, bad, bad

AdmBorkBork

14:59

I'm going to go with bad.

Martin Ender

safe choice

AdmBorkBork

I succumb to peer pressure easily. It's why I golf in PowerShell and not Python.

user202729

@user202729 Answerers for this CMP are in strictly decreasing reputation order.

Anyway... can you explain your choice?

AdmBorkBork

Reputation is gained really fast here at PPCG, especially compared to other places. Combine that with low limits and you get people with more privilege than experience.

Martin Ender

... I can see who casts reopen votes on challenges that shouldn't be reopened

(when the reopen doesn't go through, I mean)

Giuseppe

15:04

bad. I can't imagine the damage I could have done as a well-meaning but inexperienced user of the site. Limited by the mods, of course but when there's more than one inexperienced user like me....

user202729

@MartinEnder Is there a way to copy the memory watch image from Esoteric IDE?

Martin Ender

"Save memory as PNG"

user202729

to the right of the Help menu again

HyperNeutrino

Bad. I can assure you I got privileges too early to understand how to use them correctly and responsibly :/

Pavel

@AdmBorkBork Who peer pressured you into using PowerShell. The opposite sounds more likely.

AdmBorkBork

15:08

thats_the_joke.jpg

And if I'm honest, it was Microsoft that "peer pressured" me into PowerShell, with the introduction of Exchange 2007 ten-ish years ago.

Dennis

We were never meant to be in this situation in the first place. The current low rep threshold are for new sites that would have no members with moderation privileges if the usual thresholds applied. That hasn't been true for PPCG in years.

moonheart08

I'm going to go insane.
I replaced four memcpys in The Powder Toy's implementation of air with a pointer swap. Now i have to go through almost every file in the codebase and patch everything up to dereference the air map

Pavel

@AdmBorkBork Isn't Exchange just the mail program

moonheart08

however, i just saved a bunch of CPU time, so yay? (these memcpys were ran once a frame)

NieDzejkob

how big were the memcpys?

moonheart08

15:17

940032 bytes, or nearly a MB

HyperNeutrino

PPCG has an unnaturally high amount of people with a ton of privileges so like basically everyone can just instantly edit everything and see deleted things that normally less than 90% of active users would be able to do.

user202729

Use C++ (at least 11) and std::move instead.

NieDzejkob

Woah...

Pavel

Oof

NieDzejkob

holy shit!

moonheart08

15:18

air map is a 384x612 array of floats, for each of the 4 values

user202729

Is it too problematic?

AdmBorkBork

@Pavel Yes, it's the email server. With 2007, Microsoft made a major code change so that almost everything can be done with PowerShell commands rather than a GUI. In fact, the GUI is just executing the PowerShell commands in the background (it even shows you what command you're going to run when you click "OK"). PowerShell was essentially foisted onto Exchange admins, and it was either learn it or find a different job.

moonheart08

velocity x, velocity y, pressure, and ambient heat

i'm going through and threading it as well

(openmp <3)

user202729

worried Have I done anything wrong?

Anonymous

Debate right now in my office: strawpoll.me/15133903

user202729

15:19

I don't need to write coordinates.

moonheart08

what does std::move do? Would it let me 'swap' the pointers without going through and derefing them everywhere? :P

Unihedron

I copy the string google maps gives me

user202729

Given a lvalue y, x = std::move(y) call operator=(T&&) on x, so x is free to steal whatever there is in y. If it can.

(in particular std::array doesn't have efficient move constructor/assignment)

moonheart08

TPT is a large codebase, so not having to redo everything would be amazing

user202729

If you're using C there would be no std::move.

NieDzejkob

15:21

they're using C++

moonheart08

TPT was moved to C++ a while ago

NieDzejkob

... and memcpy in C++

moonheart08

@NieDzejkob the air code is old, ok? :P

(plus most of the other devs are used to C, not C++, but still)

user202729

Then why memcpy?

NieDzejkob

Is it even possible to reasonably mix STL with C code?

user202729

15:23

Some STL containers have some C-safe guarantee (std::vector::data())

moonheart08

On that note, we also want maximum performance, so thanks for telling me about std::move @user202729

literal blessing

user202729

Actually...

it's mostly dependent on the logic of the code. If you have a heavy variable that is move-able and you don't need anymore just move it.

(I don't know if compilers optimize that, but I doubt it)

(not everything are efficiently move-able, although most C++ containers can)

There is also the old std::swap from C++03.

moonheart08

would swap move the entire mb of array, or does it do something special?

we use it in a few places already, but i personally don't understand it (i'm a little rusty)

user202729

Depends on whether the struct is move-able.

moonheart08

its a float[384][612]

user202729

15:28

For example std::swap two std::vector is O(1) but doing the same for two std::array is O(n)

Then... no, sorry.

moonheart08

so i have to do the magic manually? rip

user202729

For example if you can wrap it into a struct, then you can just edit the code of that struct to support efficient move.

(but changing code everywhere from array -> struct may potentially take a long time)

moonheart08

it'll be faster just to make everything do the deref

Unihedron

@HyperNeutrino codefights.com/arcade/code-arcade/cliffs-of-pain/…

moonheart08

Even if i do have to read these awful errors.
src/gui/game/Tool.cpp:139:77: error: invalid operands of types ‘float [612]’ and ‘float’ to binary ‘operator+’
sim->vx[(position1.Y+(y-radiusY))/CELL][(position1.X+(x-radiusX))/CELL] += (position2.X-position1.X)*strength;

user202729

15:31

You will eventually get used to finding C++ errors.

moonheart08

actually, that error's not that bad.

DJMcMayhem

@moonheart08 I understand that. You're trying to add an array of floats and a single float

moonheart08

i know

it's because it's not derefed due to my codebase change

Here is a actual evil error

/usr/include/c++/7.3.0/bits/stl_algobase.h:324:18: error: cannot convert ‘float [612]’ to ‘float’ in assignment
In file included from /usr/include/c++/7.3.0/vector:62:0,
from generated/ElementClasses.h:6,
from src/simulation/Elements.h:72,
from src/simulation/Simulation.cpp:11:
/usr/include/c++/7.3.0/bits/stl_construct.h: In instantiation of ‘void std::_Construct(_T1*, _Args&& ...) [with _T1 = float; _Args = {float (&)[612]}]’:
/usr/include/c++/7.3.0/bits/stl_uninitialized.h:83:18: required from ‘static _ForwardIterator std::__uninitialized_copy<_TrivialValueTypes>::__uninit_copy(_InputIt…

i get the jist, but isn't that a bit much? :P

DJMcMayhem

That literally takes up my entire screen

Erik the Outgolfer

that's why there's that "(show more)" button :P

user202729

15:34

And only the last line is important.

Erik the Outgolfer

(or, "(show less)" if you will)

user202729

But there is no (show less).

moonheart08

the game has 200~ elements. maybe 2/3 of them use one of the variables related to air. RIP me

user202729

It won't be that bad if you used a struct in the first place.

(and then you only need to change the struct code)

moonheart08

wait. wow, i am dumb

only sim, the renderer, and the script interface actually need changes

the rest was just excess work for a verry tiny speed gain (or maybe even loss)

dzaima

15:51

Trying to learn Prolog, and while I don't understand how the hell can I make something that actually does stuff, it's very fun :D (though I thought the same while learning APL)

AdmBorkBork

@DJMcMayhem Just like PowerShell errors.

moonheart08

hey it builds! (Altho it doesn't work, i'm not finished yet lol)

instant bluescreen (TPT has it's own error handler) on run lol

of course i forgot to tell the build to not strip symbols (it strips by default for some reason)

forgot to initalize the buffers. oops

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