The Nineteenth Byte

Dennis

00:00

Fair point.

quartata

00:14

So it turns out this npm permissions bug is a fascinating train wreck:

1. The issue was brought to their attention in 2015 but the issue was automatically closed by a bot

Oliver

@Mr.Xcoder you're fine with input in this format, right? [3,1,7,1,6],[4,5,9,4,1]

DJMcMayhem

@Mego Are you around for some Actually questions?

quartata

2. npm update is broken and is always installing 5.7.0 despite the release channel

DJMcMayhem

Whoops, nvmd

quartata

3. the rest of the people who are actually installing bleeding edge npm always aren't helping (and IMO is a symptom of a deeper problem)

4. literally only two people are working on npm right now

5. it turns out unix is hard

good stuff

wonder how yarn is doing

Anonymous

00:20

@DJMcMayhem Actually, yes

DJMcMayhem

Cool

How do I get deltas/intervals of a list?

The docs are nice, but having everything in mathematical notation makes it hard to search for keywords

ASCII-only

@Neil please elaborate (i think i knew what you were talking about when you first mentioned this) but obviously not anymore :P

oh hang on

Anonymous

00:37

@DJMcMayhem Not an easy way. Best way is dupe, pop, drop, zip, subtract

DJMcMayhem

@Mego I actually figured out what I was working on. New question: How can I remove one item from a list?

(the first)

Anonymous

Pop

Anonymous

Or it might be dequeue

dylnan

@Shaggy You were right about my submission for the DJMcMego challenge, thanks for pointing that out

Anonymous

It's either p or d

DJMcMayhem

00:39

Oh cool, but that puts it on the stack. how can I get rid of it?

Anonymous

X

DJMcMayhem

@Mego OK, last question. How can I do > on a two element list? (Given [a,b], give 1 if a>b else 0)

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem i<

ASCII-only

@ASCII-only fixed

PhiNotPi

Idea: a language named "Only" so that people can say "Only X bytes"

ASCII-only

00:50

@PhiNotPi good idea

@PhiNotPi for this

Destructible Lemon

I was thinking about making a language for the name

specifically, the name would be REAL

i feel like it would be best if the language could even be a little bit useful

maybe not though

Anonymous

@PhiNotPi This isn't as good of an idea as you think

Anonymous

Trust me

Destructible Lemon

maybe i would make a 2d language

Οurous

Is there a unicode symbol that looks like a division sign with an extra dot on the top?

PhiNotPi

00:59

@Mego Actually though, there have been some seriously worse names.

Potato44

@Οurous like two dots on top and one on the bottom?

Οurous

@Potato44 Yeah like that

DJMcMayhem

@Mego Last question: Length of a list?

Anonymous

@Οurous You can probably make one with diacritics

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem l

DJMcMayhem

01:00

@Mego Last last question: Swap top two elements?

Potato44

@Οurous What is the purpose that the division sign is for?

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem @

Anonymous

Come on now, those are in the docs :P

ASCII-only

linked this before, but i just realized how stupid this is (they find length of name in binary then divide by 8 >_>)

DJMcMayhem

@Mego ctrl-f 'swap' 1 result, swapcase

...

Οurous

01:03

@Potato44 The division sign is for dividing things. The dot is to denote it's a vectorized division.

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem 40 (@): pop a,b: push a,b (rotate top 2 elements)

Potato44

@Οurous Closest thing I can think of is this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_mille

DJMcMayhem

I know it's in the docs, it's just hard to find a lot of these based on the terms I'd tend to think of searching for

@Mego BTW, any tips?

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem I should probably read the challenge first

Oliver

Is it valid to output 1 for truthy and anything else for falsy or does the falsy value have to be consistent?

Anonymous

01:12

@DJMcMayhem ♀- is shorter than 0~*¥. ♂A is shorter than <backtick>AM. I have no idea what the heck ΣaS;ld@d@X=* does but you can just do 0@c1= if I'm understanding the challenge correctly.

PhiNotPi

@Oliver Generally, truthy/falsey is up to your language. Like, how would an "if" statement behave if given that value?

I don't think it has to be a consistent value.

ASCII-only

yep

but for true/false challenges you need consistent values iirc

DJMcMayhem

@Mego 'S;ld@d@X=*' = len(a) == max(a), which I'm just realizing now is wrong

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem Ah. Just count the 0s and compare to 1 :P

Anonymous

I'm reading up on brain-flak now

DJMcMayhem

01:15

I have to check that they're consecutive

♀-`AM;pXZ⌠i<⌡MdXΣ works, but it doesn't check for consecutives

Anonymous

Then check for 1 0 and the rest 1s

Anonymous

Aka sum = len - 1

Pavel

My challenge, that I did not expect to get answered, got answered, and this makes me pretty happy.

ASCII-only

@Pavel link pls

Pavel

6

Q: Shell Glob Golfing

This task is to output the shortest path to a file, after glob expansion. What is shell globbing? In most shells, you can use the * character in a path to represent any characters at the position. For example, If directory foo contains files bar baz and asdf, then foo/b* will expand to foo/bar f...

Anonymous

01:17

Well, sum == len - 1 doesn't work

Pavel

It's not that hard, it just has only 6 points and two close votes after a day

Unihedron

I didn't attempt this because I didn't understand the problem

DJMcMayhem

@Mego I am doing that, which is why I'm summing. But the issue is that they have to be consecutive, so just checking that all but one are increasing will be a false positive for [1, 3, 2, 4, 6]

Pavel

@Unihedron What part didn't you get?

DJMcMayhem

@Mego BTW, I said that as a joke. I'd be amazed if Wheatwizard or Nitrodon could pull that off :P

Anonymous

01:18

@DJMcMayhem Try ♂s for map(sgn on the deltas

Unihedron

wait, this just pattern matching?

Oliver

@ASCII-only In my case, it's consistent in that truthy values will always return 1, and falsy values will never return 1

Pavel

@Unihedron Kinda? You're looking for the shortest pattern that expands to the given path.

Unihedron

oh, unique substring pattern

ASCII-only

@Oliver as in the return value itself has to be consistent

DJMcMayhem

01:21

@Mego I'm headed to dinner, so I don't have the time to fix it right now. I'll delete it and let you know if I get it working later

Pavel

@Unihedron Essentially. It can be more coomplicated than that, it's not just the one substring. Have you used shell globing?

Unihedron

no, but I'm researching it now

@Oliver I think using any falsey / truthy value pair is ok, and if it's convenient with true + 0 it will probably work, but if return values can be true + false + 0 it's debateable

Oliver

@Unihedron it passes this test, so I think it's valid

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem I think just ensuring that there is 1 0 after ⌠i>⌡M is sufficient. ♀-♂A;pXZdX⌠i>⌡M0@c1= passes all of the test cases.

Oliver

@Mego it fails [3,1,7,1,7][4,5,9,4,1]

Destructible Lemon

01:32

ok so, we have discussed brainflak in 2d before?

how about {...} = turn right after execution if 0 else turn left or something

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon wat

2d ruins the essence of brainflak

Destructible Lemon

i think some people have mentioned that

@ASCII-only perhaps

but maybe not

ok so, truth machine in my proposed 2d thing will be made now

except no output because of how it works

oh i forgot a halting command

how about exiting the playfield?

actually it's more difficult than i would have thought

never mind

oh i just remembered a 2d language concept i was going to make a while ago

ASCII-only

01:53

@DestructibleLemon malbolge 2d :p

Destructible Lemon

no, and i think i've changed some of the idea as well

so, it is no longer a disc, it is now the outside of a cylinder

ASCII-only

right so it's klein all over again

Destructible Lemon

no

the ip goes around unhaltingly, you can only step up and down to control the control flow

what data types should i have?

stacks?

i think i will have a stack like brainflaks third stack and some registers or something

orlp

is anyone here familiar with rust?

Downgoat

@orlp depends on what part of rust

orlp

02:00

fn cat_stdin() -> Result<(), Box<Error>> {
    let r = io::stdin();
    let mut l = r.lock();
    cat(&mut l)
}

I'm just curious about this

if I remove either temporary this doesn't work anymore

DJMcMayhem

@Mego I got it working, but it's painfully long :/

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem Welcome to Actually

Destructible Lemon

I think i'm actually having inspiration for a programming language for once

PhiNotPi

How about a language designed around trees, except that they're lemon trees in particular.

Destructible Lemon

i already had inspiration

i think i'll make the interpreter optimise some of it as well

PhiNotPi

02:12

You can always get more inspired.

Destructible Lemon

it has nothing to do with trees

sorry

Zacharý

@orlp What language

Destructible Lemon

14 mins ago, by orlp

is anyone here familiar with rust?

Zacharý

I'm about as familiar with it as I am with Perl: I know the VERY basics. So you could say I'm RUSTy at it

Destructible Lemon

hmmm, maybe i should support strings in this language

Zacharý

02:17

Strings are good

Is it esoteric?

Destructible Lemon

yes

i think i will call it REAL

Zacharý

Then don't include strings. Everything's got to be a real number

Destructible Lemon

I think i will have strings and integers be the same underlying value, but still have string operators, perhaps

however, the only issue is that i can't use addition and concatenation for the same one

Zacharý

~ boys!

(D)

Destructible Lemon

what

Zacharý

02:21

~ is concatenation in D. + is only addition

Destructible Lemon

it's not really so much about that

it's more about the language design that it doesn't fit with

Zacharý

Ah

Destructible Lemon

maybe i'll let people mix strings and lists themselves?

except that gets really ungolfy

Zacharý

Is this supposed to be a golfing language?!

Destructible Lemon

no

Zacharý

02:23

Then it's fine if it gets really ungolfy

Destructible Lemon

but it's not supposed to really be super esoteric

ASCII-only

clearly concatenation should be .

Zacharý

Java's a thing

Destructible Lemon

i decided i won't have concatenation

Zacharý

._o

Destructible Lemon

02:24

I also think i might remove the cylinder part

because i got more ideas now

i might add teleporters or something?

Οurous

Good character for set exclusion?

Destructible Lemon

what is set exclusion again?

Οurous

@DestructibleLemon "this thing but without the stuff that's also in that other thing"

HyperNeutrino

a <exclude> b = {x for x in a if x not in b}?

Destructible Lemon

maybe i'll make it not 2d

Zacharý

02:36

- or _ or / or <backslash>

Destructible Lemon

ok so what characters should i use for labels. I think that it might be best not to alphabetics or alphanumerics due to conflicts

oh, maybe i could use allcaps? wait i was going to use that for something else

Zacharý

$ + <whatever> + $

Destructible Lemon

hmm

ungolf

Zacharý

Like $f$, or maybe just $f

Destructible Lemon

how about...

|~\/

Zacharý

02:39

That seems fine

Destructible Lemon

hmmm

maybe i will use allcaps

and it'll still sort of be 2d but not really

it has gotos

also some of the step up and down commands still

ok so it still ticks along to the right inexorably but it also has teleporters and doesn't wrap anymore. well, i mean the spec, because i haven't made anything

ASCII-only

02:59

@DestructibleLemon ...

Destructible Lemon

I had a starting idea, then got a different idea while thinking about the idea, and i'm relegating the intial idea to be made some other time

i changed my mind about 2d a bit back and forth

actually i might remove the up and down again

actually, add them back, but modify them to go up and back to the first space it finds

ok so, i might try writing a truth machine in the current spec + whatever commands i forget

i forgot subtraction, didn't i?

B|A
`B:,~B`A,

there is the program

assuming that input works by starting on the value stack

ASCII-only

03:17

@DestructibleLemon :|||||||||||||||

Destructible Lemon

@ASCII-only ?

ASCII-only

03:49

@Neil could you write verbose test cases for default and else's separator problems?

@Zacharý marbelous?

random statement of the day: for a certain really specific subset of people, SE is a gateway drug for TNB

2

@ASCII-only can't find the problem with else

tfbninja

04:23

@DJMcMayhem tf is on your profile about "the algorithm"? I've googled it, stackexcanged it, and gotten nothing.....plz explain

ASCII-only

@tfbninja XKCD reference

tfbninja

@ASCII-only, do you possibly have a link?

ASCII-only

@tfbninja explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/footnote

Anonymous

I miss the old footnote on xkcd :(

Destructible Lemon

what if we made a compression challenge for homeworlds like the one for chess

tfbninja

04:29

@ASCII-only interesting....

Οurous

@DestructibleLemon "squish the earth into a black hole"-style?

Destructible Lemon

@Οurous no

DJMcMayhem

@tfbninja Yeah, ASCII's right lol

tfbninja

Hey guys I'm making a language that's gonna be heavily math based and very golfy, if you have any ideas for what I should call it you should totally put them here

@DJMcMayhem Noice

Unihedron

I submitted an idea

you're welcome

user202729

04:56

Jul 2 '15 at 4:31, by Dennis

I use CJam for everything. It takes much less time to write.

Nowadays golfing languages use SBCS, hence less convenient to use if you're not using your own computer.

Why is there an empty message on the starboard? Invisible whitespace?

ASCII-only

@user202729 charcoal is easy to type on TIO though :P

@user202729 link pls

this should be doable in charcoal

Pavel

I did not know charcoal could do animations

Ørjan Johansen

@user202729 There's one with just ಠಠ (Kannada alphabet "eyes"), perhaps they don't display for you?

ASCII-only

@Pavel the functionality has been there for ages, it's just that nobody's used it (btw it can show how the program works command-by-command using animations too)

github.com/somebody1234/Charcoal/blob/master/examples/…

from July last year

Pavel

05:12

I introduced a friend of mine to Nethack earlier today, and he's already better at it than I am :(

ASCII-only

@Neil are there any features you think would help make Charcoal shorter?

@Pavel :/ doesn't that just mean you're terrible at nethack

Pavel

That is not incorrect

tfbninja

@Unihedron I don't know if it was you, but someone put "Mathematica", also, "MATLABatica", and "Charcoal: Better Wolfram Edition"

Tungsten sounds cool

Pavel

Should still be implemented in Mathematica tho

tfbninja

"Golfram|Alpha"? interesting...

Okay if you posted "RhomboStellatedTruncahedroGramerrentiation" Please explain, and if it's good I'll choose it

Pavel

05:19

Wasn't me

Οurous

Sounds kinda like a higher dimensional shape and then some integration part or something.

Pavel

I didn't submit any of the Wolfram ones. I do think you should implement it in Mathematica though.

Οurous

I put Radical down, because Radicals and also slang for cool

Pavel

That's actually a good name, damn

Οurous

I'm good at naming things.

Pavel

05:22

@Οurous A quick glance at your GitHub tells me this is, in fact, not the case.

Οurous

@Pavel hush we don't talk about that

Pavel

Who commits their .userprefs file

Also, monodevelop

Οurous

Hold on I actually think they're all okay except for WAMM

Oh

That was a high school project

Pavel

> FrackinUniverse

Οurous

And it's the only working IDE for Cobra

@Pavel not my project, just my fork

Pavel

05:24

oic

Οurous

I should nuke WAMM, I'm not doing to touch it again anyway.

Pavel

I do a lot of .NET development on Linux. I use vim and Sublime Text (pretty much interchangably) and build from the command line.

Οurous

I prefer nano on Linux.

Although I do most of my Dev work split screen between windows and an Ubuntu VM

Pavel

woah

I had no idea people actually used nano

I thought it was just what you had to use if you didn't know vim and were ssh'd into a computer

tfbninja

@Οurous Nice, I like the thought behind it

@Pavel roasted

Esolanging Fruit

05:36

@Pavel That's why I use it

tfbninja

Matherithmetic

I kinda like mth

Pavel

mthmtca is taken, unfortunatly

tfbninja

@Pavel what a shame

mth could be math or meth, depending on how you take it

I kind of like "only" because it's like seriously and actually in that it's a dumb joke about the number of bytes

Pavel

Mar 24 '17 at 22:05, by Martin Ender

@DownChristopher this has been suggested many times in the past. I personally don't think it's a very interesting idea. If someone made a golfing language based on Mathematica, I think they should primarily focus on Mathematica's type system, pattern matching features and functional nature, not on its crazy library of built-ins.

Kinda want to try doing that

tfbninja

Thing is i don't know nothing about mathematica, I do python.

There's always that person @user202729

Pavel

05:43

I'd suggest learning, because it's awesome, but unfortunatly it's kinda expensive

tfbninja

TIO...

Is there a better, paid version?

user202729

And Wolfram Sandbox.

tfbninja

True

user202729

(at least it has syntax coloring, but it's too slow for me. Some users prefer TIO)

tfbninja

I do like syntax coloring

Pavel

05:45

Also, the docs are right there.

tfbninja

I'm also thinking of making ASDFLang, a language similar to ArnoldC in that everything is phrases, all from ASDF of course

@Pavel yes

True

"Jimmy, take out the dog" - clear stack

"Yes Mother" - Push True

Pavel

Using Mathematica from the desktop client is much nicer though. It's more responsive, you can get your results easier, there's tab completion and other IDE-like functionality.

tfbninja

"Everybody do the flop" - Reverse everything on stack as string

Pavel

Also, you can organize your data in more than just plaintext, Mathematica supports formatting data into fractions and superscripts and such so it looks nicer.

tfbninja

@Pavel Yeah I could see that

Pavel

05:48

It's still an awesome language.

Ørjan Johansen

@tfbninja The joke doesn't quite work because of the required comma in the header format.

Although there are other words that would work.

Pavel

Also, Mego owns all language names ending in -ly

DJMcMayhem

@tfbninja Oooh. Tungsten sounds like a really cool name

tfbninja

@ØrjanJohansen true

@Pavel One could make a case for that

DJMcMayhem

I don't know if it has any appropriate meaning, but it sounds really awesome

4

tfbninja

05:50

@DJMcMayhem yeah I agree

Pavel

Tungsten isn't really a math-y thing, more of a science-y thing, but it still sounds neat.

tfbninja

For sure

Or maybe instead of tungsten, one of it's bonded names, like idk tungstide

jk that's not a thing apparently

DJMcMayhem

@tfbninja I think you'd only use -ide for a non metal

tfbninja

yup

I should know this, being in chemistry right now

DJMcMayhem

Source: a few weeks of chem 101 that I started this semester

Lol

New Sandboxed Posts

05:53

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Vertical Multiplication code-golfascii-artmath Input Input two positive integer number a, and, b. It is guaranteed that a * b < 231, a > 9, b > 9. Output Output Vertical Multiplication of a * b For example, the output for input [132, 54] is: 132 x 54 ------ 528 660 ------ 7128 Al...

tfbninja

noice

DJMcMayhem

@tfbninja Apparently tungsten is also known as Wolfram lol

tfbninja

wut

DJMcMayhem

That's really funny

tfbninja

omg its true

wow

that's actually really good

Οurous

05:55

Tungsten|Beta

tfbninja

ayy

not bad

Οurous

Tungsten|🅱️?

tfbninja

what is 🅱️, I can't see it

Οurous

You don't have the B button emoji?

DJMcMayhem

> Tungsten has the highest melting/boiling point of any discovered element. It is the heaviest element known to be essential to any living organism

Those are both super interesting

tfbninja

05:58

@Οurous apparently not

Mr. Xcoder

@Oliver Sure that’s fine

tfbninja

@DJMcMayhem true

There are some chat messages that simply cannot be edited, they just need to be removed and attempted again

DJMcMayhem

Apparently tungstate is WO4

tfbninja

but what is WO4

sorry, WO4

DJMcMayhem

One tungsten, 4 oxygen

tfbninja

06:02

oh duh

DJMcMayhem

The only reason I could possibly find this m that interesting is my the couple weeks into my current chem class haha

Tungsten == W because it used to be called Wolfram

Pavel

@DJMcMayhem That's a tungsten ion, it won't exit by itself

tfbninja

Tn, Tu, Tg, Tt, but no.... W

Mr. Xcoder

Wow I woke up and my phone was fully flooded with notifications from my latest challenge :-)

Ørjan Johansen

@DJMcMayhem Still called Wolfram in other languages (like Norwegian)

DJMcMayhem

06:05

@tfbninja I mean... There's also tin, lead, silver, and gold

(Sn, Pb, Au, Ag)

Ørjan Johansen

Including, ironically, Swedish, where "tungsten" comes from.

Unihedron

@tfbninja the one I put was Primes

that will be five bucks

tfbninja

@DJMcMayhem you know what's really fun is insulting people by using element names, they have to convert to the symbol

@Unihedron Gee okay, bitcoin work?

Unihedron

5 bitcoins? :thinking:

tfbninja

ahh..... no

Ørjan Johansen

06:07

.oO ( Fluorine, Uranium, Carbon, Potassium. )

Unihedron

nah I'm feeling generous, keep your money

for today

tfbninja

@Unihedron I ain't friggin bill gates: $49642.83

okay thanks for the generosity

Unihedron

:]

ASCII-only

@Pavel Edited rule: the number of _ in ಠ_ಠ represents the number of minutes of suspension you are asking for, in addition to the 5 minutes you get from using that at all.

@tfbninja github.com/somebody1234/JS-Stuff/blob/master/Tungsten.js

tfbninja

@ASCII-only Well there goes that

ASCII-only

06:15

@DJMcMayhem And K and Cu?

@tfbninja >:D

well that's not exactly a language

tfbninja

Copper later

ASCII-only

it's just a terrible implementation of part of the Wolfram Language, even Charcoal probably supports more

oh yes

tfbninja

Did anyone understand the copper later...

ASCII-only

what Wolfram stuff should I add to Charcoal next

@tfbninja huh?

tfbninja

symbol for copper = Cu

okay nvm

I should just

stop

btw what is the 1711 under my name there

ASCII-only

06:19

@tfbninja Network rep

tfbninja

Wow I'm really dumb today

Name the new mathy esolang

Aight I should probably do hw

but I don't really want to

@DJ "Mathy McMathface"?

You guys are trash:"Mathy esolang
The new mathy esolang
Name
Name for new esolang
Proposed idea
Required"

ASCII-only

@Mr.Xcoder 1. return infinity, 2. error, or 3. return your language's maximum decimal precision

Mr. Xcoder

06:37

@DJMcMayhem 15 bytes :P

ASCII-only

also: anyone that wants, please try to break Charcoal's arbitrary precision decimals (ping for help on how it works, i guess?)

i have too few tests for them >_>

Οurous

@ASCII-only Sure, what file do they live in so I don't have to read the whole repo content?

ASCII-only

@Οurous wolfram.py, it's Real IIRC?

Οurous

@ASCII-only precision = max(0, min(self.precision, other.precision) - 2) Why subtract 2?

Mr. Xcoder

I have 10 bytes for the DJMcMego pairs in 05ab1e, won't post though :)

ASCII-only

06:50

@Οurous possible error from the previous calculation, if any

@Mr.Xcoder :/

Esolanging Fruit

@tfbninja How about "For now"

ASCII-only

@Οurous cast evalvar "Real" <number> in verbose mode to create a wolfram decimal

Οurous

@ASCII-only You seem to have the Rational class's __truediv__ implemented, but you also have if other_type == Rational: pass in the __truediv__ of Real (all the other operators in Real seem to handle this without a pass)

ASCII-only

@Οurous hmm Rational(self) / other should work right?

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