The Nineteenth Byte

xfix

21:07

so i was checking the meta, to check out how things work now (i wasn't participating on this website for a long time), and i found a certain comment interesting

110

A: Default for Code Golf: Input/Output methods

Functions may output via their return value(s)

"Wait, are there languages that have functions without return values? o.O"

i actually wonder in how many programming languages that's the case, like i know it's the case in Turing-complete Rust macros, but those are part of larger language

AdmBorkBork

PowerShell functions don't have to have return values.

xfix

i mean, it's usually not the case that functions have to return values

moonheart08

@AdmBorkBork so does practically every other language on the planet :P

xfix

for instance in Java, there is void type (not really a type) which means that a function doesn't return a value

moonheart08

Same for C/C++, except void is an actual type and you can have a pointer to it

AdmBorkBork

21:13

I suppose it's depending upon whether it means the function returns foo, or whether the program knows the function executed successfully.

xfix

void * is a type, not sure about void

it's sorta weird

like, in Rust macros, you strictly speaking CAN return tokens, but it's not useful unless you want to finish the computation

AdmBorkBork

I'm sure there are languages that need to have a return value.

Οurous

@AdmBorkBork most functional ones

xfix

but sometimes that return value is () or something as pointless

what is void in Java is an actual type in many functional programming languages

this has its advantages, for instance it interacts better with generics

anyway, about Rust macros, if you want to pass the result to another function, the way to go is to use continuation-passing style

or just specify the function name to return to, but that's not as flexible

Adám

@xfix APL allows proper functions without result.

xfix

21:17

i'm not really interested in languages where functions may not return values

rather i'm currently interested in languages that have functions but they cannot return values in any case

quartata

anything with subroutines rather than proper functions

BASICs

xfix

yeah, that seems like one

quartata

But those then have global states obviously

DJMcMayhem

@Adám Random question. I've seen lots of examples of golfed APL, but I've never seen ungolfed APL before. Do you have a good example of idiomatic readable APL?

quartata

I suppose the purest language of all is one with no side effects and no return values ;)

Adám

21:23

@DJMcMayhem Sure. Why don't you browse the GitHub repos of Dyalog and myself?

@quartata There can be return values, but in the end, nothing is displayed. Yes, that's what I always say: A pure functional language cannot be used for anything.

DJMcMayhem

Cool, thanks!

xfix

21:36

in the end, a practical functional language probably should output more than 1 bit of a result (depending on whether it halts or not)

of course, due to halting problem, determining whether a program halts or not is rather tricky

where rather tricky means in many cases you can detect it, but sometimes a Turing machine just won't be able to do that

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Btw, my weekly lessons teach proper APL rather than golfed (though I occasionally mention a golfing trick). Feel free to join in anytime. We're currently doing OOP, which is very not-golfy.

xfix

(like a an argumentless function in pure programming language constantly calling itself - clearly an infinite loop)

HyperNeutrino

question: if I have a flask server running in a docker container, how do I connect to that server from another computer without using something like ngrok

I tried curl ipinfo.io/ip and then that_ip:5000 but it doesn't connect

betseg

@hyper mines? :P

HyperNeutrino

?

also apparently you can flag numbers and the number will disappear o_O 0/10 me

betseg

21:45

@HyperNeutrino this, your program is better than mine and i want to play with it with functionality :P

HyperNeutrino

ty :P and oh ok i'll implement that now then

so many high numbers ;-;

xfix

oh, nice, minesweeper

Zacharý

Wait ... what is this for?

HyperNeutrino

fun

xfix

reminds me of a situation i had on my first of day of work somewhere (non-IT job by the way)

the internet had to be configured, i had nothing to do, the computer was running Windows but games were removed

but i sorta wanted to play Minesweeper waiting for internet to be configured, so I just wrote an implementation in JavaScript (i mean, non-IT, so no compilers on computer, but there was a web browser)

didn't take all that long, and it was even somewhat fun (even if i had to do this without documentation, i remembered enough about JavaScript that i managed to do it)

tfbninja

21:54

@DJMcMayhem how many consecutive days do you have?

DJMcMayhem

@tfbninja 778

tfbninja

2.13 years @DJMcMayhem

solid

moonheart08

Is there an advantage to building all the files at once instead of one at a time? aka
clang++ -o fooprogram main.cpp foo.cpp bar.cpp

betseg

his minesweeper is based on mine btw

/plug

New Meta Posts

4

Q: A farewell to moderation

If you're new around here, chances are you might not even know who I am. I'm Alex, and I'm a (soon to be ex-) moderator on this site. At first I was a user just like you, enthusiastic about the site, then I became a moderator pro tempore, and then I was elected. It's no secret that I haven't bee...

discussion

16

Destructible Lemon

22:10

from the blender user manual

betseg

it says

<p>&copy; Copyright : This page is licensed under a `CC-BY-SA 4.0 Int. &lt;https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/&gt;`__ License.</p>

in the source

ETHproductions

hmm... I joined PPCG 25 July 2015, visited for 231 consecutive days before leaving...

betseg

$ gcc mine.c -o mine -O0
$ wc -c mine
19176 mine
$ gcc mine.c -o mine -O3
$ wc -c mine
19016 mine

ETHproductions

rejoined 7 Sep 2016, racked up 370 straight days, and I've missed 10 since then

betseg

^^ nice, gcc, thanks

ETHproductions

22:16

every time I write a long message and then decide to copy-paste half of it into a separate one, they get split up :P

Wheat Wizard

Joined 581 days ago, haven't missed a day yet :)

betseg

@ETHproductions it's a long known phenomenon, known as "the curse of tnb"

ASCII-only

@ETHproductions why copypaste half though

ETHproductions

I felt like it fit better in a separate message

ASCII-only

that's not even a long message >_>

ETHproductions

22:21

I could perhaps have just put a newline in there, or just done nothing

sometimes I overthink how my messages will appear

Zacharý

@HyperNeutrino Looks like Fun

@HyperNeutrino what language is it written in? C?

betseg

22:55

@HyperNeutrino github.com/betseg/minestest i added a readme and an asciinema video :D

moonheart08

clang++ -o build/main.o -c -g1 -std=c++17 -march=native -Iinclude -ffast-math -Ofast -flto build/main.cpp
clang++ -o exodus build/main.o build/unwind.o build/core/Entity.o build/core/Geometry.o -lunwind -lunwind-x86_64
build/main.o: file not recognized: File format not recognized

Goddamnit clang

I blame.... No idea.

pokes SConstruct file

goddamnit lto

pls tell me i'm using you wrong next time kthx

ASCII-only

@betseg this is obviously not every functionality, you can't move the cursor around

betseg

D:

i meant auto-expanding and stuff D:

ASCII-only

also 1 is the most unintuitive syntax for a flag i've ever seen

> step on cell

wat

also 10/10 re: parse error at the end

betseg

@ASCII-only you step, you dont blow up, ???, profit

@ASCII-only lol

ASCII-only

23:01

@betseg so "flag" should be "mark cell on map/AR display"

betseg

@ASCII-only imgur.com/a/MqaaB it is flagging in GUIs

(first image is gnome mines)

caird coinheringaahing

@NewMetaPosts I really hope Alex stays active on the site, more so when he stops being a mod. We need more of the 'golden oldies' so to speak

ASCII-only

@betseg of course. but nobody is stupid enough to stick a flag into a mine, are they? :P

Destructible Lemon

the name minestest is pretty similar to minetest

betseg

Remembered the minecrafty game's name after I named this, never bothered to find a new name :P

Destructible Lemon

23:09

minestestnotminetest?

New Main Posts

-1

Q: Feed Forward Neural Network

Summary: You are given 2 input values and a solution for those 2 inputs. For example, given the 2 inputs 3 and 4, the output might be 7. Throughout further training, the network should be able to predict that the output for x and y is x+y. The form of this network is a 2-3-1 feed forward neural ...

code-golf

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Evil Overlord, Part 1: Moon Base Scouting I'm starting these "Evil Overlord" challenges as a way to experiment with non-golf scoring. Though I may have one or two code golf challenges. If you're going to be an evil overlord, there are 2 things that you need: an inner sanctum, and mad-science ...

Οurous

Any ideas for a symbol meaning "skip over the next instruction in the traversal direction"? Ideally one with a counterpart made of dots or dashes (basically, with hollow space) for "conditionally do the same"

betseg

I'd recommend one of 🔀⤴️⤵️↗️♐

Destructible Lemon

@Οurous what sort of symbols?

HyperNeutrino

23:21

@Zacharý Python

@betseg Ooo cool! nice :D

Zacharý

Ah

Οurous

@DestructibleLemon Ideally not more arrows. Latin letters are pretty much taken too. And I don't want emoji.

Destructible Lemon

@Οurous "¡" and "¿"?

like ><> but upside down, i think

Οurous

So far I've got ○ for unconditional and ◌ for conditional, with the mnemonic "over"

Destructible Lemon

those look almost identical

betseg

23:23

ô, looks like it jumps over the o

ASCII-only

unicodelookup.com/#dashed/1

> Ideally one with a counterpart made of dots or dashes

Οurous

@DestructibleLemon similar, yes, identical mostly because of the chat font

Destructible Lemon

overline and dashed over line

@Οurous probably should pick ones that are never so identical

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon overlines are another character though

Destructible Lemon

yeah

¯ can be used as a character

Οurous

23:25

@DestructibleLemon That's already used for ceiling

betseg

ō and ò, ō passes over and ò lands :D

ASCII-only

hangon @Neil is charcoal's -l broken

Adám

@Οurous How about _ and … ?

Οurous

@Adám The first one is too similar to an underscore

Destructible Lemon

there's probably an undashed counterpart to this one: ፧

Adám

23:33

@Οurous The first one is an underscore. Where is your list of used symbols? Without it, it is a bit difficult to answer.

@DestructibleLemon | ?

Destructible Lemon

❙?

Οurous

@Adám Okay, my bad. My unicode tool told me it was a low-line. Which apparently means underscore.

Destructible Lemon

maybe

betseg

¦ and |?

Οurous

I'm going with the white and dotted circles for now.

Destructible Lemon

23:36

use ∷ in conjunction with a square?

betseg

∴ therefore and ∵ because

Οurous

@DestructibleLemon github.com/Ourous/dirty/blob/refactor-runtime/charset.txt - my poorly annotated character set. square is universal reflect

Destructible Lemon

◽ ∷ ... argh none of the sizes match up

@Οurous a bunch of these look too similar or don't render...

Οurous

@DestructibleLemon Only the power symbol doesn't show up in NP++, and only the power symbol and two arrows don't show up in TIO

Same as NP++ with github for me.

It'll end up having TeX and HTML entity parsers though, so don't worry.

ASCII-only

@Οurous *npp

betseg

23:42

∴ ⁂ ∵ --- ※× --- † ‡ --- | ‖ ¦ --- % ‰ ‱

Gtg, gonna sleep

Zacharý

Cya

Adám

@Οurous I like the current symbols. They fit nicely with the reflect symbols.

ASCII-only

successful-plain.glitch.me/boolean.html

Should work a lot better now, I'd appreciate help testing?

Οurous

@ASCII-only when I do a & b it refreshes the page instantly after doing something.

I can't tell what the something is because it's too fast.

ASCII-only

hang on

yeah trying to make enter work

@Οurous fixed

Adám

23:59

@ASCII-only Why don't you use my test cases (I've refined my code a little bit):

https://tio.run/##hVVBaxtHFL7rV8xtrCIjK720XkIITSGGUkNbaCDkMNqdlaeZnVntzNoWpjrk4MrGaxJCj4XSJFTNpZTQHgKhkJ8yf8R5b2YjaaW1sxfLO@9973vf@@Yty@V2MmFSj66u3OyXRJjcnT79Ro9ETPhxXkSHrDCRZUPJI3f5695@ZIuSR4rzhCeRUImJmJSREVkOETEz3HSIDwSYHXLd46rfyM72EMITAiD8WKhRh2AtSMO6bvaXq@YAdLf3xeBLd/Ef/mzm82NbsNhilkB@RLGsrv79/bv39n901WtEbK8udcykMJzYA551CDQBlW@581euevH@74Gr3tz6zJ39sQGAuRC8HetsqIkXJhA/cdWlq972KOC46l/68/u5O30OoRvZxoiRIpzFB0RYQ3INL4ZCWoHsvYQe4hJ1uEY7fshkySxHKqRWfXcvJTu33Wze9y9a80TqyadMGqCNTz1x0Ip@pRUomojYCq0ooTt0kTcuhQXGhZxAna8hGWq52Z@tlVbqoFc2yvzASqvBcBMoMaCNtI0yNxooE8dgn4KbUloTymBBKONp9de0/5iWgtS8ID@VxuL…

Transcript for