The Nineteenth Byte

Οurous

00:00

I'm wondering if I should have a single-character builtin that evaluates to the current market price of a bitcoin in USD

Adám

@Οurous $ ?

Οurous

@Adám ₿

Adám

@Οurous Ƀ

ngn

@Οurous do you have enough bits to store that? :)

Adám

@Οurous ฿

Οurous

00:04

@ngn I currently have 117 allocated codepoints

oh

heh

Some days yes, some days no.

ngn

@Οurous no, I mean in the int type :)

@Οurous anyway... failed joke about the price of bitcoin, ignore me

Pavel

@Οurous Just return rand()

Destructible Lemon

wanna see a screenshot of my pygame thingy so far?

Pavel

not particularly

Destructible Lemon

oh

Destructible Lemon

00:39

I found another error in the y position algorithm

dangit

Οurous

Three stacks, calling them: abc, xyz, or lmr

meh, lmr is better in context

Dennis

@ETHproductions GolfScript doesn't have an official online interpreter. Moreover, copy.sh/golfscript is incompatible with the official Ruby interpreter.

Οurous

or I could go with fml. Which is funny

moonheart08

00:57

Could've sworn GolfScript was built atop python, but nope

Why do all the various golfing languages have some sort of python, ruby, etc eval? :V

goes to look at other esolangs out of annoyance

It's that page again.

Pavel

@moonheart08 Debugging?

moonheart08

No, finding something i can use as a all-round testcase for a JIT compiler library.

If you can't tell, i don't want to just immediately write a C JIT compiler :p

Pavel

No, I was saying why golflangs might have a py/ruby/whatever eval

moonheart08

oh

Pavel

That's my guess, evaling a scripting language Is probably never good for golfing.

moonheart08

01:11

@mudkip201 you there? Is there any docs for pyt?

mudkip201

@moonheart08 github.com/mudkip201/pyt/wiki/Functions github.com/mudkip201/pyt/wiki/Constants

user202729

Because it takes little effort to implement it and it can be useful sometimes.

(see Jelly recursion limit)

moonheart08

@user202729 I have to remind myself that interpreted languages can't do tail call optimization

because stuff like recursion limits bugs me for some reason

user202729

They can. (tinylisp)

Pavel

@moonheart08 Sure they can

moonheart08

01:19

I mean they usually cant

:P

Pavel

And not all calls are tail calls.

moonheart08

True

Plenty of ways you can optimize recursion, even then. (in terms of x86: reserve some register or two for the recursive call to not use the stack to pass things along, don't use x86 call, use a jump, etc)

Pavel

@moonheart08 IIRC x86 can't actually do recursion with subroutines without some magic involved. If you call a subroutine that's already been called somewhere up the call stack, it will overwrite the address to jump back to on ret and you'll get stuck in an infinite loop.

moonheart08

Good point. I'm not a x86 wizard :P

more like an apprentice

ETHproductions

@Dennis Thanks, I've switched the link to TIO.

moonheart08

01:28

Wait

that makes no sense, @Pavel

ETHproductions

To anyone: any other new-ish golfing langs that should be added to this list? I've just added Pyt and Stax, as I've seen them around a bit

Pavel

This has to do with a story my dad told from back when he actually used Assembly, so what I'm describing might actually predate x86 and not apply anymore.

moonheart08

It predates x86. I just checked

:P

Recursion in x86 is literally just a call if you don't mind an eventual stack overflow

You had me thinking for a moment, tho

@ETHproductions Fireball no longer exists. (github missing)

ETHproductions

@moonheart08 thanks, I'll look into that. Currently updating a bunch of outdated information

moonheart08

Well i'm scanning over your list to find a featureful language, so i'll catch a few things

Destructible Lemon

01:36

maybe i should make some sort of golfing language

ETHproductions

that used to be the hot thing to do, and it's still done quite frequently

At least 37 golfing langs have been made by PPCG users

Destructible Lemon

I don't really get much inspiration for golfing languages though

Dennis

@moonheart08 Jelly has TCO. The full program Ñ¶Ç (roughly f=lambda x:g(x); g=lambda y:f(y); f(0)) runs forever.

moonheart08

Oh, neat

returns to spouting near nonsense

ETHproductions

JavaScript also has TCO (or is supposed to, it's the last remaining feature of ES6 that doesn't have widespread implementation)

Pavel

01:47

@Dennis Ah hah! I know what all three of those symbols mean!

moonheart08

@Pavel to note, thats for old systems that didn't have a call stack.

Pavel

Right, right.

moonheart08

they just had a dedicated register or memory location for one return address

Pavel

Each subroutine had it's own. You could still call subroutines from subroutines.

moonheart08

ah

Pavel

01:49

Unless it was really early Assembly. Then IDK.

ETHproductions

Just my luck... SourceForge is down the one time I try to access the original CJam website

Οurous

Why can't I find a latin letter u with a single dot above it. It has to exist.

mudkip201

not as a precomposed character it doesn't iirc

Pavel

@ETHproductions Works for me

moonheart08

@ETHproductions buged me too lol

Οurous

01:53

bah

Pavel

Wait nevermind caching

moonheart08

lul caching

Zacharý

If a dotted character isn't in Jelly's cp, it doesn't exist... IIRC

moonheart08

so great but so evil

ETHproductions

@Οurous Nope, doesn't exist (see first line of file)

Zacharý

01:54

@Dennis, is that right? Does Jelly contain all the dotted latten letters?

mudkip201

doubt it. ĿŀḸḹṨṩṜṝẬậẶặỆệỘộỢợỰự

:P

In case you're wondering, yes, those are all precomposed characters

ETHproductions

@mudkip201 Ŀ is there at 0xC7

mudkip201

mkay

ETHproductions

And ŀ 0xEE

Pavel

H̛̟̦͎ͯͣ́̑̓̓́E̡̘̰̩̩̣̗͂̇͌̆ͣͅͅ ̷̢̳͚̩̱̈́͛C͍̟̫̞̼̰̻̠͖͋ͫͦͩ̄̏ͧ̌͘͠O͔̳͒͊͌ͮͦM̵͔̹͖̗̻ͪ͌͐͊ͅĖ͎͈̲̻͔̗̏͛ͮ̎͛͆̈́S̖̺̯̲̫̤̱͂̊̃͗ͯ́͂̚͟‌̗

ETHproductions

01:57

But all the others are not included :P

Zacharý

I meant all the dotted basic latin letters.

totallyhuman

all characters are complex

Οurous

Opinions: Assuming I can't use R/r for various reasons, is U/u = Upend/Upturn okay for reversing / flipping

ETHproductions

sure, it's what Jelly uses

mudkip201

ƋƗƋ ɎǪɄ ⱾȺɎ ⱾØⱮƎŦǶƗƝƓ?

if you're sticking only to alphanumerics, sure

totallyhuman

02:00

a lot of people said a lot of somethings

Οurous

@mudkip201 I'm not, but all the visually distinct arrows and turny things are used already

mudkip201

hmm

Zacharý

@mudkip201 ňǒ

mudkip201

@Οurous I used ↔ for reversing an array/the stack

you use that one?

Οurous

@mudkip201 That sets the traversal direction to either left or right, at random.

mudkip201

02:02

ah

totallyhuman

ooh 2D?

Pavel

@Οurous ⌽

Destructible Lemon

@Οurous you don't need to have mnemonics anyway

ETHproductions

Is @Okx around anymore?

Οurous

@DestructibleLemon If I didn't need mnemonics I would just assign 255 bytes of garbage to 255 instructions and call it a day

Zacharý

02:03

@DestructibleLemon Just use random unicode characters. That's what MY does, it uses unicodey-mnemonics.

Destructible Lemon

@Οurous I'm just saying it's obviously ok because z would be ok too

PhiNotPi

@ETHproductions I believe so, last seen Feb 10th.

Destructible Lemon

@Οurous you'd still need to make the 255 instructions

also why not 256

ETHproductions

@PhiNotPi Their last post was in January, though it's pretty sporadic

Their language Fireball does not seem to exist anymore. The repo disappeared and the lang was last used 9 months ago

Οurous

@DestructibleLemon Good question

PhiNotPi

02:07

@ETHproductions relevant wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_last_known_speakers_of_languages

ETHproductions

@PhiNotPi thanks :P

Zacharý

What languages do you know allow unicode identifiers?

Downgoat

> null == 0
< false
> null > 0
< false
> null >= 0
< true

why JS

or is this like an IEEE thing

Pavel

@Downgoat Because in JS, a >= b is implemented as ! (a < b)

Null is not less than 0, so it must be greater than or equal to it

H.PWiz

02:27

@Zacharý Haskell does

Zacharý

@H.PWiz I asked that because D does as well, which I realized from a mistake,

Adám

@Zacharý Dyalog APL (well, western European)

Pavel

@Zacharý Swift allows emoji Identifiers

Zacharý

@Adám ... is it restricted to quad av?

Adám

in The APL Orchard, Jan 24 at 19:36, by Dyalog APL

@Adám ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ_abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖØÙÚÛÜÝßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõöøùúûüþ∆∇⍙⍵⍺ⒶⒷⒸⒹⒺⒻⒼⒽⒾⒿⓀⓁⓂⓃⓄⓅⓆⓇⓈⓉⓊⓋⓌⓍⓎⓏ

Pavel

02:31

@Zacharý Go does.

Perl 6 does

Zacharý

RIP Icelandic people

Pavel

Perl 6 is extremely obsessed with unicode actually

Adám

@Zacharý So: no.

Zacharý

@Pavel Fortress... Fortress loves it SO much more than Perl 6

Adám

@Zacharý What?

Zacharý

02:33

Capital thorn

Neither is 'ý'

Adám

@Zacharý I don't think that's a deal-breaker, though. Lowercase looks much like uppercase.

@Zacharý Which is in ⎕AV. A bit strange with those two cases.

Zacharý

Are we drifting into BASIC land here?

@Adám ._.

Christopher

no

Pavel

@Adám Whats ⎕AV

HyperNeutrino

CMP: a,b|>c == a,(b|>c) or a,b|>c == (a,b)|>c? x,y` represents a 2-tuple and a |> b == b(a)

Zacharý

02:38

Which language? Your own?

Adám

@Pavel The Atomic Vector (the classic Dyalog character set).

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino a, (b |>c) IMO

Zacharý

(a,b)|>c!

HyperNeutrino

@Zacharý proton 2.0

I like (a, b) |> c better because I think |> shouldn't be seen as a function call but more like you take a value and then feed it into the next part of the expression.

Zacharý

Uncurrying (Don't know what to call it) can be a possibility with the latter option

Adám

02:40

Lesson 14 - stack & workspace info, misc

Jan 24 at 18:30, 1 hour 30 minutes total – 189 messages, 6 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Jan 24 at 20:30 by Adám

HyperNeutrino

a@b should bind as tightly as possible but b |> a should bind as loosely as possible IMO.

Currently that's how it works, I'm just wondering where to place a, b in the list.

Eric Tressler

@Zacharý kebabing (okay, I'm joking, it's called uncurrying)

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino That's c((a, b)) and not c(a, b) right?

HyperNeutrino

Also programming language idea: operators that are closer to their values bind that value more tightly, so a+b * c == (a+b) * c but a+b*c is still a+(b*c)

@Pavel oh yeah you're right. should |*> be a thing?

Pavel

If you have a splat pipe |*> then , can go between |> and |*> in precedence since splatting a tuple into a function is generally more useful than piping it in directly.

Zacharý

02:42

@HyperNeutrino I does this IIRC. Except normal OOP is RTL/LTR only

HyperNeutrino

hm ok

so you suggest |> over , over |*>

Pavel

So a, b |*> f is f(a, b) but a, b |> f is (a, f(b))

@HyperNeutrino Yep

HyperNeutrino

ok cool. that's a good idea. thanks!

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino I does that

HyperNeutrino

Oh cool :P

Pavel

02:44

@HyperNeutrino Try it online!

Zacharý

@Pavel You've been ninja'd

HyperNeutrino

(((a+b)*(c+d))**(e*(f+g)))*(h+i) -> a+b * c+d ** e * f+g * h+i :P

H.PWiz

@Zacharý That's exactly what Haskell calls it

HyperNeutrino

I really hope I is esoteric

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino Kinda

HyperNeutrino

02:45

hm

Pavel

TIO labels it recreational, and it isn't useful, but you wouldn't really call it an esolang

HyperNeutrino

oh ok

J-based I see

Zacharý

It's basically APLs level of "esoteric"ness (I'm using "esoteric" VERY loosely, as APL (most if not all varieties) are non-esoteric) high on tons of crack. To clarify, it seems like it was designed switching between esoteric and non-esoteric

PhiNotPi

I wonder what a list of "dead programming languages" would look like.

HyperNeutrino

oh hm ok. so kind of like proton

it would certainly include every language i ever made minus proton :p

Zacharý

02:48

@PhiNotPi ... ,DARTMOUTH BASIC, ..., Fortress, ...,

@PhiNotPi Define "dead"

Pavel

Late 2017, I asked Dennis to add SNOBOL to TIO, and discovered it's still under active development

Zacharý

Let's not let anything SNOBOL out of control. (I'll stop)

PhiNotPi

@Zacharý I guess a language nobody is currently using.

Or nobody is currently learning.

Ignoring esolangs that were never meant to be learned by anyone anyways.

Christopher

I like how Zachary always provides good puns but knows went to stop :)

Pavel

This is kinda neat

Zacharý

02:52

@Christopher I've learned my lesson, so I've KICKED that habit

Pavel

ಠ_ಠ

HyperNeutrino

1869 upvotes in 2 hours

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino Where

Christopher

@Zacharý @Dennis fix

HyperNeutrino

wait why is the number changing so much

Christopher

02:53

(ZWS causes heart attacks every day)

HyperNeutrino

@Christopher don't randomly ping mods ಠ_ಠ

Christopher

ahem ^^

Zacharý

@Christopher Why ping Dennis?! You can ping the penguin. They'll probably kick me quick

Christopher

ahem ^^^^

HyperNeutrino

oh you did mean zero-width space

Christopher

02:55

have a cookie

HyperNeutrino

ಠ_ಠ ZWSP is the proper term

Pavel

I'm personally more fond of the ZWNJ

Christopher

same thing

I once put a ZWSP in the middle of a dennis joke ping. I didn't realize that it actually pinged him :P

HyperNeutrino

n i c e

Zacharý

@Adám ... wat

Christopher

02:58

@HyperNeutrino My life was over when i realized what I did. IIRC dennis was understanding

or i got banned idk what one it was

HyperNeutrino

lol :p i mean dennis is a nice person :p depends on how many times you pinged him and how bad the joke ping purpose was :p

Pavel

:⍴

Christopher

iirc the joke was the ping :P

Zacharý

Now. Mego might kick you on the spot, if his reactions to my puns are anything to go by

Lesson 14 - stack & workspace info, misc

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