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Pavel
Pavel
5:00 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing I have no idea what I'm looking at
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
You can obviously make your language more verbose than that
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@Pavel Look at the Boolean:ArgumentsAreEqual It returns FALSE when the inputs are 10 and 10
 
Pavel
Pavel
I assume this is a bug :P
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
Yes
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I'm assuming you'll fix this?
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
5:05 PM
@Zacharý I'm planning to add something like Java's public static void main when I get functions and classes (or even loops) working
@Zacharý Currently waiting for a pull on TIO
 
Pavel
Pavel
ಠ_ಠ the Fedora java-devel package has a Lue dependency
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
Q: What should be the minimum variable name length in Verbosity? I'm thinking ~10 bytes
 
Neil
Neil
that would exclude the use of verbose as a verbose variable name
 
Pavel
Pavel
@cairdcoinheringaahing Make sure to throw in a mandatory MetaFunctions:UseNameSpace<"VerbocityStandardLibrary"> as a counterpart to using namespace std;
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
How about MetaFunctions:LoadAllInternalTypesFromNameSpace<MetaFunctions@CURRENTLYLOADEDNA‌​MESPACE> instead? :P
 
Pavel
Pavel
5:12 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Wouldn't CURRENTLYLOADEDNAMESPACE be the current namespace of the project? That standard library would be a different namespace.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
@cairdcoinheringaahing I might make a competing language that only uses Objects, and only accesses them using object syntax
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
So changed CURRENTLYLOADEDNAMESPACE to VerbosityStandardLibrary?
@Zacharý Isn't that Python?
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I have 678 bytes as a Hello, World! program
 
Pavel
Pavel
@Zacharý Joke's on you, Java will still be more verbose
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
No, I mean where to do 1+1 you'd do System.Math.One.Add(System.Math.One) in it. (I had the idea without being extremely verbose, so it could get worse)
It probably would be implemented in Python
Abusing the fact that you can have custom functions be called on member access
@Pavel *Verbosity
 
Pavel
Pavel
5:20 PM
@Zacharý It's only 9 in the morning don't make me spell things so early
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
This is just making me create longer names and more verbose methods of creating things in Verbosity :P
Q: Longer name for Loop?
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Maybe use Loops:ForLoop ?
Or something similar?
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
As in the class for loops (for loops are Loop:ForLoop)
 
Pavel
Pavel
@cairdcoinheringaahing ControlFlow:Repeats:RepeatWhileConditionIsTrue and ControlFlow:Repeats:RepeatForEachVarInCollection
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
That works :P
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
5:25 PM
Have you ever thought of using underscores instead of camel case?
control_flow:repeats:repeat_for_each_var_in_collection
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
ಠ_ಠ How dare you. That looks horrible
Verbosity should be readable as well as long
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
CamelCaseIsBestCase
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
One thing for sure change "Var" to "Variable"
Camel_And_Underscore_Case
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
Would_That_Be_A_Hybrid_Snake_Camel?
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
No_It_Would_Be_A_Snake_Named_Pascal
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
5:28 PM
> IntegerConstantValues = enum(IntegerValueOne = 1, IntegerValueTwo = 1)
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
Fair enough hahahahah
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
I fails
 
Riker
Riker
@cairdcoinheringaahing you does a much fails?
@Zacharý but seriously what's wrong with this
looks fine to me other than the weird : syntax
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
> IntegerValueTwo = 1
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@cairdcoinheringaahing everybody knows the best programming languages yield True for 1=2
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
5:29 PM
@Riker Lol I thought you were Riley by looking at the username and photo
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@Riker Snake case is what's wrong with that, methinks.
 
Riker
Riker
:/ didn't realize that
@J.Sallé u wot m8
snake case is great
clarification: I don't agree with that variable name, just the snake case
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
Funnily, your usernames have a Levenshtein distance of 2
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
Who needs integers greater than 10? :P
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@Riker If by 'great' you mean worse than camelCase, then yes!
@cairdcoinheringaahing 10 = IntegerConstantValues:IntegerValueOne + IntegerConstantValues:IntegerValueNine I guess?
Not sure if the sum notation is accurate
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
5:32 PM
This is for a verbose language, of course. Not designed for code golfing, precisely the opposite
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
Integer:DefineVariable<10; Integer:ArgumentSum<IntegerConstantValues@IntegerValueOne; IntegerConstantValues@IntegerValueNine>> would be 100% correct :P
 
Riker
Riker
@cairdcoinheringaahing -1 for designing an anti-golf lang
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@J.Sallé Infix notation is too hard to parse :P
 
Riker
Riker
verbose is fine, see mathematica
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@Riker That was me
 
Riker
Riker
5:33 PM
don't make langs just to be useless
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@cairdcoinheringaahing fair enough. That actually looks nice though hahahahah
@cairdcoinheringaahing why use <> instead of () or []?
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
@cairdcoinheringaahing That's why people use postfix
@J.Sallé To be different
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@Zacharý I assumed so :p
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@J.Sallé I like angle brackets :P
@Zacharý Done that so many times it's no longer interesting
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
@cairdcoinheringaahing What's the current if equivalent?
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
5:36 PM
Use {}
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
I actually like them too. Sadly Java doesn't use nearly enough of those.
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@Mr.Xcoder It doesn't have if yet
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Which ones, angle or curly?
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
Angle
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
<> are function calls, [] are blocks of code (if, for and while loops for example)
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
5:37 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Name Suggestion: ExecuteThisStatementIfTheConditionIsTruthy.
:P
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@Mr.Xcoder ExecuteThisStatementIfTheConditionIsTruthyOtherwiseExecuteTheNextStatementIgnor‌​ingThisStatement :P
Too verbose?
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
Fair enough
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
ExecuteTheFollowingStatementIfAndOnlyIfTheConditionEvalutesToTrue
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@cairdcoinheringaahing I think anything over ~30bytes would be too verbose
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
ControlFlow:IfStatement
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
5:39 PM
And for output?
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@J.Sallé The empty program (doesn't do anything), is 87 bytes :P
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
A fun one: DisplayToSTDOUT
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@cairdcoinheringaahing but it uses "compound" commands I assume? (I mean commands with @ or :)
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@Mr.Xcoder OutputMetaType:DisplayAsText currently
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
Perhaps OutputMetaType:OutputThisExpressionToStandardOUTPUT :P
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
5:41 PM
@J.Sallé Yeah. @ indicates a constant property (like MetaFunctions@FILE) and : indicates a function
I must take my leave now (homework). o/ All!
 
J. Sallé
J. Sallé
@cairdcoinheringaahing Yeah, I thought so. I meant that single commands (like OutputMetaType) over 30bytes would be too verbose.
Cya o/
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
\o
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Maybe I should add static typing to the list of ideas to out-un-golf cairdcoinheringaahing?
Is Verbosity designed to be practical, @cairdcoinheringaahing ?
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
6:00 PM
Are this and this dupes?
 
tfbninja
tfbninja
@DJMcMayhem Imma work on it now
in liberty study hall
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
@WheatWizard I'd say no.
Or let other with non-hammers decide, dunno
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
@Mr.Xcoder Why?
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
There are a couple of differences: 1) The range is different, you go from N to 2N (so you receive one input, not two) 2) You are not supposed to sum (some recursive approaches, for example, might benefit (or not) from this)
I agree that they are closely related, but not enough for me to hammer (I wouldn't reopen if it got closed, though).
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
Hm, I guess. The answers don't really look very different though
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
6:09 PM
I'll leave a comment
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
IMO the n to 2n is probably just a dupe of prime testing. Every answer that has an explanation or that I can read implements a primality test and then just filters a list.
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
Yeah, that's close too.
Done
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@Zacharý Eventually
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
I decided to VTC
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@Zacharý No one can outungolf me. Even my name is the least ungolfy
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
6:12 PM
@WheatWizard I edited the dupe list to include the other one too. I'm surprised Dennis didn't take any action, though.
If we would have been unsure, Peter would have clarified things up eventually :P
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I could possibly make my System.Constants.LanguageName idea less annoying to use if I somehow hacked in some macro abuse
 
caird coinheringaahing
caird coinheringaahing
@Mr.Xcoder The fact that there are differences would probably stop a mod hammer. They're supposed to be really stingy with their CVs IIRC
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
That's one of the difference between dupe hammers and mod hammers
 
Blue
Blue
6:50 PM
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
7:15 PM
o_O
 
Poke
Poke
Anyone familiar with the Scherer-Scott dual stack algorithm
trying to read through their paper but i keep zoning
hoping someone can give me the skinny
 
Adám
Adám
7:43 PM
CMP: We are trying to decide whether APL should sort numbers before characters or characters before numbers. 1) Any SE where such a question would be appropriate? — CXO is asking. 2) What's your opinion?
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Characters or strings?
 
Adám
Adám
@Zacharý Strings in APL are just character vectors.
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
@Adám IMO, numbers before character, but I don't have any real reason why or anything
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Numbers before characters, pretty much for the same reason as @DJMcMayhem
 
Pavel
Pavel
@Adám You mean, what should sort 'a' 1 'bar' 73 32 yield?
 
Adám
Adám
7:47 PM
@Pavel yes, should it be 1 32 73 'a' 'bar' or 'a' 'bar' 1 32 73?
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
@Adám In both cases, how would you sort: '1' 'a' 1?
 
Mr. Xcoder
Mr. Xcoder
 
Pavel
Pavel
Oh, ninja'd
 
Adám
Adám
@NathanMerrill either 1 '1' 'a' or '1' 'a' 1.
 
Poke
Poke
gross mixed-type collections
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
7:48 PM
why just numbers and characters? Aren't there more types than those?
 
Pavel
Pavel
@Poke Python2 has an unhealthy obsession with being able to order absolutely anything.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Not really, I assume they have how arrays are going to work
 
Adám
Adám
@Mr.Xcoder @Pavel I also brought Python2 as argument for that, but it turns out that Python2 sorts numbers before strings only because 'float' and 'int' precede 'str'.
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
I like the way Python 3 does it: 
Python 3.6.0 (v3.6.0:41df79263a11, Dec 23 2016, 08:06:12) [MSC v.1900 64 bit (AM
D64)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a = [1, 2, 'b', '1']
>>> sorted(a)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: '<' not supported between instances of 'str' and 'int'
>>>
 
Adám
Adám
@NathanMerrill In Dyalog APL, not really, other than objects and object representations, but they are not included in the Total Array Ordering, for now.
 
Pavel
Pavel
7:50 PM
@DJMcMayhem I'm going to have to agree with you there.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
MySQL and PowerShell (and thus, by extension, .NET languages) sort numbers-before-letters
 
Adám
Adám
@DJMcMayhem That is basically Dyalog APL's current behaviour, but there are reasons why TAO is valuable.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
I'm pretty sure Excel and Microsoft SQL do, too
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
What is TAO?
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork Links?
@DJMcMayhem Total Array Ordering.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
7:51 PM
@Adám then I'd argue that 1 < '1' because '1' < 'a'
 
Adám
Adám
@NathanMerrill I thought of that too.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
it makes the most sense
 
Poke
Poke
just compare hashcodes
lul
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
what are you going to do about Classic vs. Unicode?
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke Huh? You mean the actual binary representation?
 
Pavel
Pavel
7:52 PM
@AdmBorkBork Nonononono, that's just PowerShell. Other .NET languages don't just let you compare strings to numbers. 
(1,2): error CS0019: Operator `<' cannot be applied to operands of type `string' and `int'
 
Adám
Adám
@Zacharý Classic sorts characters according to ⎕AVU, and Unicode according to ⎕UCS.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
So they're equivalent ?
 
Poke
Poke
@Adám negative. was making a subtle shoutout to java
 
Pavel
Pavel
@Adám It means to compare the values of the actual object pointers.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
I have a good idea: a system variable for determining which one comes first.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
7:53 PM
in essence, you have two sentences to choose between:

1. Numbers precede characters
2. Numbers precede letters, but characters precede numbers
tell me which one is easier to understand and read :)
 
Pavel
Pavel
@NathanMerrill There's also the option of 'Error on string-number comparison'
 
Adám
Adám
@Zacharý No: Unicode vs Classic..
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Like ⎕TAO or something
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
@Pavel I'm assuming that's off the table, considering that's their current implementation
 
Pavel
Pavel
@NathanMerrill I'm trying to argue that that should remain the implementation.
 
Adám
Adám
7:55 PM
@Zacharý No no, we already have way to many system variables that affect behaviour; ⎕IO ⎕CT ⎕DCT ⎕WX ⎕RL ⎕ML ⎕DIV. You just end up needing boilerplate before you can start coding.
 
Pavel
Pavel
Comparing everything with everything is bad, and there's a reason they cut it out of Python 3
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
the biggest problem with compiler/runtime flags is that often times you'll have server configurations of those, and they don't match development settings
 
Poke
Poke
Python 2's comparison is pretty shitty tbh, docs.python.org/2/library/stdtypes.html#comparisons
> CPython implementation detail: Objects of different types except numbers are ordered by their type names; objects of the same types that don’t support proper comparison are ordered by their address
ordered by type name
who the hell decided that was a good idea
 
Pavel
Pavel
@Poke 'int' is less than 'string', which is why numbers go before strings
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
@Adám what about arrays? How would you sort ['a', 1, []]?
 
Poke
Poke
7:58 PM
@Pavel mhm. you get into the real fun when you compare tuples and arrays
 
ATaco
ATaco
Javascript just returns false for all comparisons other than !=
 
Poke
Poke
or just arbitrary classes
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@Adám Here is official Excel sorting methodology.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Arrays obviously go after scalars, I think
 
Adám
Adám
@NathanMerrill We are finalising that. Current model says they it is sorted as you wrote it, but I think we want [] before any content, and possibly 1 before 'a'. (This question.)
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
7:59 PM
ok, so there are more types
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke Luckily APL doesn't have tuples.
@Zacharý No, after major cells.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
why are arrays before everything?
 
Poke
Poke
 
Adám
Adám
@NathanMerrill No, everything is an array in APL, even 'a' and 42.
@NathanMerrill Not arrays before everything; nothing before something.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
But not like [42], that is totally different
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
8:01 PM
ok, let me ask a better question then
 
Adám
Adám
@Zacharý 42 would go before [42] because we use rank as tie-breaker.
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
sort([[1], ['a'], [[1]], [['a']]])
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@Pavel Right, that's true. The underlying .NET allows sort comparisons between types, provided that the List(T).Sort method is overloaded appropriately.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
This sounds pretty confusing
 
Adám
Adám
@NathanMerrill Missing quote?
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
8:02 PM
thanks :)
 
totallyhuman
totallyhuman
*walks in* *slowly walks out*
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
@totallyhuman Since you reopened this post do you want t0 talk about why its not a dupe?
 
Adám
Adám
@NathanMerrill depending on the char-vs-num debate, but [1] before [[1]] and ['a'] before [['a']].
 
totallyhuman
totallyhuman
the same reasons xcoder had
2 hours ago, by Mr. Xcoder
There are a couple of differences: 1) The range is different, you go from N to 2N (so you receive one input, not two) 2) You are not supposed to sum (some recursive approaches, for example, might benefit (or not) from this)
I dislike my hammer though :/
@Adám sort by depth?
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@totallyhuman Obligatory Grandpa Simpson gif
 
Adám
Adám
8:05 PM
@totallyhuman No, element wise. so [1] vs [[1]] becomes 1 vs [1] and then we tie-break using the rank, i.e. 0 vs 1.
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
@totallyhuman That's why Mr.Xcoder thought it wasn't a dupe of a different question.
 
totallyhuman
totallyhuman
whoopee three replies
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
?2
 
Adám
Adám
@Zacharý Nah, better a weak argument than arbitrary order.
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Does J have an equivalent?
 
Adám
Adám
8:08 PM
@Zacharý TAO or roll?
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Does J have an equivalent to TAO?
I know what TAO is.
 
totallyhuman
totallyhuman
@WheatWizard primality test: plenty of challenges involve a primality predicate, don't see why this one is a dupe; prime sum: non-arbitrary upper bound for range, not summing, also least importantly the question's from 2011
feel free to disagree though
 
Wheat Wizard
Wheat Wizard
I felt that appying a predicate to a list is pretty much a trivial modification.
I guess this is just a disagreement.
 
Adám
Adám
@Zacharý Almost. Grade works on everything, but I found a bug where two non-identical arrays are considered the same in grading. Number precede characters, but only because their type number is less (kind of like Python2's int and float vs str).
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
@Adám I mean, if you don't want an arbitrary order: compare ord('a') > number
that's objectively bad, though :)
 
Adám
Adám
8:13 PM
@NathanMerrill Yeah, that's what K does, but I'm pretty sure we don't want that, since the Unicode value is arbitrary.
 
ATaco
ATaco
Funky’s ::sort just shuffles elements of different type
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
if you want to be PHP, you can try and convert it to a number before sorting it
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
Number before string, because strings/characters have a length attached to them
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
or maybe they do it the other way
 
Adám
Adám
Btw, K's grading is completely nuts, imho, it sorts [65,66,65.5], i.e. all ints before all floats!
 
Laikoni
Laikoni
8:14 PM
@totallyhuman I don't know about other languages, but the Haskell answers are pretty similar:
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
1, '1', 2, '2', 'a'
 
Adám
Adám
@Zacharý Not in APL, they don't.
 
Laikoni
Laikoni
f n=   [i|i<-[n+1..2*n],all((>0).mod i)[2..i-1]]
a!b=sum[x|x<-[a  ..b  ],all((<)0.mod x)[2..x-1]]
 
Adám
Adám
@NathanMerrill What if you throw in a two-digit number or a float?
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@Adám PowerShell sorting -- Try it online!
 
Pavel
Pavel
8:17 PM
@ATaco That's horrible
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
@Adám ok, nevermind...php's sort is really bonkers
 
ATaco
ATaco
It was Javascripts idea.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
PowerShell is unusual in that it's strongly typed but will try to dynamically cast things on-the-fly so you can do comparisons. Note especially that List(T).Sort isn't necessarily stable. For example, changing 1, '1', ... into '1', 1, ... results in the string being sorted first because the string is dynamically cast to int and then sorted.
 
Pavel
Pavel
Some nonnumeric strings go before numbers, and some go after numbers.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@Pavel I'm reasonably confident that's because the default IComparator is asciibetical when characters are not equivalent. Don't quote me on that, because I can't seem to find the .NET documentation right at the moment.
 
Adám
Adám
8:22 PM
@AdmBorkBork Ugh.
 
Pavel
Pavel
@Adám Ewwwwww
That's just gross.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Neat. camera click
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
@NathanMerrill /('s sort)|(really)//sg
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
The hyphen must be confusing the sort somehow. Removing that results in "proper" behavior.
 
ATaco
ATaco
It’s, kind of consistent?
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
8:27 PM
@Adám ok...so I think I figured it out. PHP's sort isn't stable, so it was doing weird things with equal elements
I believe that by default, it converts numbers to strings before comparing them
 
Zacharý
Zacharý
'a'++
 
Nathan Merrill
Nathan Merrill
so 11 > '10' and 10 < '11'
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork Do you have a link to MySQL documentation?
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Hehe, yeah, it's definitely the hyphen. Mixing around the elements yields different sort results.
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork boink.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
8:36 PM
@Adám No, just something I know off the top of my head. Unless you're strictly sorting numbers, though, and prepend a zero to each number, you get things like 1, 10, 11, 2, 3, 4, IIRC.
 
Riker
Riker
@ATaco LOL
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork Wait, that's just sorting strings ASCIIbetically. Doesn't SQL enforce a column data type, so you can't have mixed numbers and text in a single column.
 
Riker
Riker
not just string/int getting mixed up, funky places things like 2 > '1' > '2' > 1
 
Pavel
Pavel
@Riker Run it again
It shuffles the results
 
Riker
Riker
yea I saw that too
but it doesn't just switch around '2' and 2
swaps around 1 and '2' too
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
8:39 PM
@Adám As far as I can remember, that's correct. Disclaimer: I haven't coded in MySQL in 2+ years.
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork So then MySQL does not sort numbers before characters, it (like Python3) doesn't allow you to sort mixed types at all.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Yeah, that's probably true.
 
ATaco
ATaco
I blame JavaScript
 
Pavel
Pavel
@ATaco Does JS shuffle uncomparable elements when sorting
 
Adám
Adám
 
ATaco
ATaco
8:41 PM
JS always returns false when comparing incomparable elements
And because Funky just implements Quicksort
The result is a shuffle
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@Adám Yeah, but I think that's more implying what's the average of a VARCHAR column? Not that you can have mixed types in a column, but that a 1 in a VARCHAR column is automatically treated as '1'.
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork Ah, I see.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
And I know you'll get an error trying to put a string in an INT column.
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork There is no agnostic or raw type?
 
Riker
Riker
@ATaco [fix-request] >_>
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
8:46 PM
@Adám Honestly not sure.
 
ATaco
ATaco
Itssfeature
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
APL should run 20 iterations of randomized bogosort and return the resulting values. Every now and then you'll get lucky.
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork :-D Stable TAO is valuable, though.
 
Poke
Poke
why
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@Adám What's TAO? I'm not familiar with the non-philosophical definition.
2
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
8:54 PM
@AdmBorkBork Can I have some n00by Windows help please? I don't understand what it's doing.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Sure, I'll give it a go.
 
Adám
Adám
@AdmBorkBork Total Array Ordering.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
A few days ago I disabled the Windows Update service and set it to run under an unprivileged user.
I also killed the Windows Update service.
That worked fine...
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke In a sorted array, equal (exactly matching) items are put adjacent to each other, thereby facilitating grouping, classification, eliminating duplicates, etc.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
But it just deactivated my Windows, revoking the license.
I don't know why.
(It's Windows 10, by the way.)
 
Poke
Poke
8:58 PM
@Adám regardless of tao you'll be able to do that as long as equal items are next to each other
which they should be if your sorting works correctly
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke Well, you can only sort if everything can be compared to everything. APLers use mixed data types as a matter of course.
 
Poke
Poke
weakly-typed languages irk me
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke APL doesn't change types (except converting various internal numeric types as needed — in APL, a number is a number), characters are never made into numbers or vice versa if you don't explicitly ask for that to be done.
 
Poke
Poke
a list of mixed type is not something that typically exists in a strongly typed language
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
@Poke Python is strongly typed...
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
9:02 PM
@wizzwizz4 Are you using a Microsoft account or a local account? Did you do the free upgrade offer, or is this a separate purchase?
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@AdmBorkBork Microsoft, free.
Have you encountered this before?!
 
Poke
Poke
@DJMcMayhem I guess my wording was weak. Let's go with statically typed instead ;]
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
I hoped, for Microsoft's sake, that it was my fault. But it wouldn't surprise me if it weren't.
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
Ah, fair enough
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Any hardware changes? It could be a goof with the automatic activation that resulted a year and a half ago or so. Lemme find an article.
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
9:04 PM
> The sad truth is that when it comes to type systems, "strong" and "weak" don't have a universally agreed on technical meaning.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@AdmBorkBork No hardware changes.
I'm on the Anniversary Update.
The only thing that might have changed is the power connector (briefly) but iirc only Apple devices can detect which cable they're using.
 
Poke
Poke
that all being said dynamically typed langs are not bad
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Yeah, then it simply sounds like the automatic activation goofed. You should be able to use the activation troubleshooter to rectify that, or you may need to call their activation support line.
 
Poke
Poke
just prefer the type safety of static
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@AdmBorkBork Oh, ok.
Would you expect that to occur with no reinstallation?
It's the first restart since stopping Windows Update, if that helps.
 
Poke
Poke
9:08 PM
i remember when i updated to win10... and then built a new computer. I was able to call microsoft and give them my old win7 key and they gave me a real win10 key instead of just the upgrade key you get when you update from a previous version
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke Well, APL has multi-dimensional arrays, and it is perfectly normal to have one data type per column, which if you ravel (flatten) the array would result in a mixed-type list.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@Poke Do you prefer 10 or 7?
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
I've seen all sorts of weird activation issues with Windows. Microsoft is usually really good about helping you sort it out, though.
 
DJMcMayhem
DJMcMayhem
@Poke Correct me if I'm wrong, but static means int a = 0; //explicitly state 'a's type and dynamic means a = 0 //implicitly infer that 'a's type is int
Right?
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@AdmBorkBork Thanks for the help. :-)
Ah. Error code 0xC004F012, which I assume is related to Windows Update.
 
Poke
Poke
9:09 PM
@wizzwizz4 I use 7 at work and 10 at home. I usually don't notice that much of a difference. The main nuisance with 10 was how long it took to configure all the privacy settings and turn off telemetry stuff.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Plus activation is usually done automatically via the phone keypad. And it's free support.
All that being said, why are you disabling Windows Updates?
 
ATaco
ATaco
Windows update used to DoS me
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@AdmBorkBork Mixture of paranoia and custom tweaks that won't survive an upgrade.
 
Adám
Adám
 
Poke
Poke
@DJMcMayhem Yeah basically in a statically typed system int a = 0; means that the variable a is and always will be an integer until it falls out of scope. It's something that can be checked during compile time.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
9:10 PM
I've had infinite loops with regular updates; I doubt an upgrade would cope.
 
ATaco
ATaco
It would use all my download speed but whenever it finished, it errored and started again
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@ATaco Could you access the logon screen?
 
Poke
Poke
@Adám I imagine it also contributes to bugs :\. I guess I don't see the value of something like that over just having some sort of structure (creating your own type) which contains the primitive types you need.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Huh. I guess I don't tinker with my machines as much as others do.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@AdmBorkBork You're a Windows person.
 
ATaco
ATaco
9:12 PM
@wizzwizz4 yeah, even if, this was a while ago, I’ve done a full reinstall since
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
I tasted customisability, and have failed to go back.
 
ATaco
ATaco
This was just downloading, not installing
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke Bugs can happen, but it is very easy to check the types of individual elements. APL isn't inherently OO; people will usually just use arrays to keep data rather than defining a new class for each use-case.
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
@wizzwizz4 True enough. I'm also old and crotchety, and want things to Just Work™. If it wasn't for gaming, I'd probably go MacOS.
 
ATaco
ATaco
If it weren’t for gaming I’d go full Linux by now
 
Poke
Poke
9:15 PM
@Adám I guess I'm just in a different line of work where classes often span multiple use-cases :]. I suppose APL is similar to languages like R which are good at solving narrower-scoped problems?
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@AdmBorkBork The troubleshooter fixed the problem. Thanks!
 
AdmBorkBork
AdmBorkBork
Woohoo
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
If it weren't for my laptop's configuration system, I'd have put Debian on it. come up with another excuse as to why I can't do that just now.
 
ATaco
ATaco
MinGW makes my windows life easier
 
Poke
Poke
i've had a lappy toppy with linux on it. i remember having to compile my own sound drivers... i use windows when i want an interface now
 
ATaco
ATaco
9:17 PM
Linux convinced me to have a terminal/cmd hotkey
 
Poke
Poke
i just had a terminal as part of the desktop
don't remember how
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke Not necessarily. APL isn't domain specific (like R is for statistics). It is pretty general, but does have a tilt towards linear algebra. And don't get me wrong, we do use classes and (C# style) OO in general, but actual raw data is usually kept in (many-dimensional) arrays.
 
Poke
Poke
maybe it was just a transparent one that i kept open :\
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
Is Geobits still around?
 
ATaco
ATaco
Funky let’s you do OOP stuff, but you probably shouldn’t
 
Poke
Poke
9:23 PM
@wizzwizz4 He has come into chat a couple times semi-recently but seems to only stick around for a message or two :[
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
@Poke That's what the search results seemed to imply.
Ah well; perhaps Real Life™ happened.
 
Poke
Poke
gross
 
Adám
Adám
9:36 PM
@Poke According to Wikipedia, R was inspired by APL.
 
wizzwizz4
wizzwizz4
APL FTW!
(not to be confused with APL FTL, which is currently in alpha pre-release.)
 
flawr
flawr
@wizzwizz4 wtf pal!
 
Poke
Poke
@Adám that's neat
 
Adám
Adám
@Poke Wikipedia: APL was only inspired by mathematical notation, but inspired AntLang Go J K MATLAB Nial PPL Q S SAC Speakeasy and Wolfram Language.
 
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