The Nineteenth Byte

Riker

00:22

checked my dad's computer, he was complaining it was being really slow

google's phishing site database now has 7 new entries

>_<

Downgoat

@Riker :O your ip was added to google phishing db D:

Riker

01:11

@Downgoat >.> no

the 7 phishing sites I found are in tehre now if not beforee

I also failed the captcha like 3 times

muddyfish

Are you a robot?

ATaco

01:32

I'm gonna use the Tokenizer I wrote for funky to compile Brainflak..

ATaco

01:48

Welp, that was easy.

Nathan Merrill

01:58

hey, I've got an (incomplete) KotH idea: Time travel. I'd require that submissions are completely deterministic, and submissions would have a device that allows them to travel X turns backwards in time

however, I'm unsure what to make the goal of the game

I've thought of "kill other players", but I'm not sure how that makes time travel more interesting.

ATaco

Push a ball into a location.

If all bots move at the same speed, one of the only ways to take a ball from another bot would be to move mack in time and get the ball first.

Nathan Merrill

but then everybody travels back as far as possible

and we're stuck in the same situation

ATaco

Punish them for traveling back in time.

Traveling back in time makes them keep their location, but they move only every other turn for twice as long as they traveled back in time.

Similarly, the ball doesn't move.

Also, limit the amount of turns one can travel back, to prevent a player from traveling back to the start when they've just about won.

Nathan Merrill

it still feels like it'd be a game of figuring out the optimal time to travel back. I'm more looking for a "travel back in time and work with yourself/others"

ATaco

I still kind of like the idea of this time travel soccer. Even if it's not perfect with the idea you had.

Nathan Merrill

02:13

similar to Braid or Chronotron

oh, soccer makes this interesting

I was thinking you had to move it 1 square at a time

but passing the ball is interesting

ATaco

Have a single player, but travel back in time to allow you to have more players? How could you make this better than just traveling back in time 10 times and using all 10 actors?

Nathan Merrill

well, I was actually thinking to only allow travelling back once

ATaco

Unless an actor needs to travel back in time at the same time. So actor 1 does something, travels back, now there are two actors, after the time that actor 1 original spent, he needs to "return back in time" and thus be destroyed.

Nathan Merrill

Ok, so I'm thinking that we have a 15x15 grid or something. The ball moves forward by 1 each turn. Players can travel back in time by exactly 10 turns 1 time. You start with 5 players and if a ball is on the same square as a player, they can choose a direction to kick it

Destructible Lemon

ok but how do you solve paradoxes?

Nathan Merrill

02:24

every time you travel back, you create a new timeline

ATaco

To simplify the idea of this; You want a KoTH in which players must Cooperate with themselves, and allow the undoing of a mistake or unfavourable event.

Destructible Lemon

also it doesn't have the cool bonus of stable time loops like the billiard ball hitting itself

@NathanMerrill but that new one might create a new timeline which itself does the same thing = infinite recursion

ATaco

Paradoxes don't matter if you don't consider them.

And limit the time travels to 1.

Destructible Lemon

but then the game will freeze up

@ATaco doesn't fix the problem

grandfather paradox only needs one time travel

ATaco

Once again, just don't consider the paradox.

Nathan Merrill

02:26

bah, sorry

ATaco

You're not effecting "Your future", you're just moving the simulation back with a now changed state.

Destructible Lemon

ok consider this:

you make a bot. the bot looks to the left.

if there is a future version of itself there, it does not time travel

if there is not, it travels back in time and goes to the left of where it will be

paradox

Nathan Merrill

there's only 1 possible loop: A does a, B time travels and does b. This causes A to do something difference, which causes B to travel back and do something different

ATaco

Once again, that doesn't matter, because this is assuming that the one that goes back in time has to be the same actor as the one who is back in time.

Destructible Lemon

and if you say that that stops because there was only one time travel, just change it, but have them time travel back and go to the right instead of not time travelling

Nathan Merrill

02:29

@ATaco It matters because when I "go back in time" I'm recalling the same functions on all players

but the map is different

Destructible Lemon

I had sort of an idea for a koth: time police. except you'd need to solve the halting problem to find every possible loop

Nathan Merrill

this is why I want players to be deterministic

anyways, there's a relatively easy solution for soccer: an overall turn limit

ATaco

How is the time traveled player affected though?

Destructible Lemon

@NathanMerrill San Dimas time? or what ever the tvtropes page was?

Nathan Merrill

@ATaco after a player travels back in time, their actions don't really matter

ATaco

02:31

I'm gonna write a controller for my original ball pushing idea and see how it goes.

Nathan Merrill

what matters is if your actions change based on whether another player has travelled back in time

quartata

@Downgoat Do you have Bootstrap experience?

Destructible Lemon

@NathanMerrill I don't understand

Nathan Merrill

Going back to the soccer example: Lets say I have two choices: pass it to a friend, or shoot into the goal

Destructible Lemon

you can definitely have a time travel koth if it's a "resume position in the past but with the current state of consciousness" probably

Nathan Merrill

02:33

the other team decides to travel back in time and block the goal

which causes me to pass it to a friend

which then causes them to instead travel back in time and block the friend

Destructible Lemon

how does their action not matter then

Downgoat

@quartata bootstrap is jquery of css. 0/10 do not reccomend

Nathan Merrill

because the pass is happening before they decide to travel back in time

that's the problem

quartata

I think what he's saying is that a given player can rewind as much as they want, all that matters is their final actions after resolving the rewinds. The problem is the order you resolve each player if another player depends on their actions

Destructible Lemon

yeah I guess

Nathan Merrill

02:35

I'm actually limiting rewinding to 10 turns exactly 1 time

quartata

@Downgoat I'll take that as a no then

Nathan Merrill

and it still has this problem

Destructible Lemon

so like, time as a dimension to move in doesn't quite work, but time as a thread a bot's consciousness can move back on can work I think

except if two bots decide to time travel at the same time i guess

ATaco

Have an explicit turn order, which for the most part should have no effect.

quartata

Well do it lazily -- if you cn tell if a player is trying to observe another player, resolve it first. You can have some sort of tiebreaker if bothare waiting for the other.

ninja-d

Destructible Lemon

02:39

@NathanMerrill I think this basically a different version of the grandfather paradox thing I said made it that it won't work

how about if the bots make a time travel paradox they both lose?

Nathan Merrill

yeah. The thing about the grandfather paradox is that its about literally preventing the starting position from ever happening

which isn't the case here

Destructible Lemon

but then it becomes prisoners dilemma'y

Nathan Merrill

@DestructibleLemon exactly, and its really hard to tell if you are in a paradox

Destructible Lemon

@NathanMerrill the grandfather paradox covers anything where you cause yourself not to travel back in time, or travel back in time in some different way

Nathan Merrill

I don't think that "the grandfather paradox" is really a category, just a useful example :P

Destructible Lemon

02:41

it covers anything where: you cause yourself not to (this sentence)

> Despite its title, the grandfather paradox does not exclusively regard the contradiction of killing one's own grandfather to prevent one's birth.

wikipedia

it describes any time travel action that prevents itself. I think that's a better description

Nathan Merrill

yeah

Anonymous

More signs that Downgoat wrote code: </dov> :P

quartata

keep an eye out for any Cheddar or ES2017

ATaco

<titel>

Destructible Lemon

alternate time travel koth possibly: something that involves travelling forward through time

and where elapsed time is detrimental to a bot in some way?

quartata

02:46

that's just passing turns

Destructible Lemon

otherwise there would be no reason to travel forward through time?

I'm not sure what the advantages would be, no

ATaco

Removing the bot from existence for a few rounds is like being invincible for those rounds, but you're unable to think or learn.

Destructible Lemon

also you can pass through "time walls"

basically anything that would prevent you being in that space during some is a time is a "time wall". example: a large weight or something is dropped on the space, and is then possibly removed, or a room is made in the middle of it?

Downgoat

@Mego aw h*ck...

Anonymous

I fixed it, don't worry :P

Anonymous

02:55

Well, I'm in the process of fixing it. Trying to clean up imports broke things.

Downgoat

yeah >_< sorry about the formatting. I ran a program to fix some formatting (because atom does not remove trailing newlines) and apparently it removed some lines and whatnot

Anonymous

And now I unbroke things :D

Downgoat

:D

Anonymous

I just make PyCharm handle the formatting. I shouldn't let it touch imports again, though.

Destructible Lemon

I guess I'm gonna learn c# or something

quartata

03:04

why?

Destructible Lemon

uh, because... it's used a lot?

ok but why does there need to be like 8 lines to print "hello world" though

quartata

because it's pretty much just Java with slightly more core language features but a worse standard library

Destructible Lemon

but unity and stuff

quartata

unity is shit though

Destructible Lemon

maybe

Downgoat

03:11

btw @Mego in JS it's generally better-style to use spaces inside one-line object e.g. { a: 1 } rather than {a:1}

quartata

that's true of any language with dictionaries tbh

Anonymous

@Downgoat Sure, but you're not writing JS: python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/…

Downgoat

I'm referring to the JS code here for example

Anonymous

Oh, I'm not sure which style guide PyCharm is following for JS

Nathan Merrill

03:39

There's a good solution to the grandfather paradox: Something that is independent of time reversal. A couple of options: A remaining turns counter that doesn't go back up when you go back in time, or certain players don't revert to their old positions when a player goes back in time

Destructible Lemon

@NathanMerrill doesn't sound like it would work? which player is assigned the timer?

Nathan Merrill

you would have a team with multiple players. one (or some) of them would be independent of time reversal

Destructible Lemon

03:50

yeah, but a bot can still just choose to ignore them

New Sandboxed Posts

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0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Build an Electrical Grid fastest-code The Challange There are N cities aligned in a straight line. The i-th city is located at A[i] kilometers to the right of the origin. No two cities will be in the same place. You are going to build an electrical grid with some power plants. Power plants ...

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I´m trying to make a puzzle with 12 squares, three columns on four rows. Does anyone know where I could find a simple, straight forward code, or how to make one?

sliding-puzzle

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A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

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A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Introduction I am looking for help to monitor my history. I parsed everything, but I am not yet happy with the final result. Could you help me? I want to remove following same website. My history looks like this: | url | id | |---------------------...

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Q: Validate a producer consumer problem

I created the Producer Consumer program without using wait-notify in java. I am not sure if it is correct . My program - https://pastebin.com/4bZxXCsv Program given on oracle website - https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/concurrency/guardmeth.html Can someone tell whether these t...

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tfbninja

15:43

Hey ya'll sorry I'm such a noob but how do you put a link in your comment? I've tried with the <a></a> tag and it doesn't seem to work.

NieDzejkob

@tfbninja [link text](url). It's called markdown and you can do other things with it too

Laikoni

@tfbninja Here is a list of all available commands: codegolf.stackexchange.com/editing-help#comment-formatting

Poke

16:10

Steam links are on sale for 5 bucks

get em while they're hot

tfbninja

16:28

@NieDzejkob Thanks!

caird coinheringaahing

16:43

I've been reading through my old deleted answers and hating my past self for posting them :/

DJMcMayhem

@Poke You wanna know an even better deal? Sanctum 2 (FPS/tower defense) is free right now

Poke

17:06

aw i already have it

good game, though

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, great game

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Now that's a nice new identicon (the purple one)

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder Thanks! For some reason, it changed my blue one to this weird pink one, and I hated that, so found this on the internet :P

flawr

9

Mr. Xcoder

17:22

Lol 10/10 all are amazing 😂

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder Most effective solution :P

J. Sallé

17:51

@flawr best method to generate a random string: ask a front-end developer quit vi(m)

caird coinheringaahing

I don't get what's so hard about exiting vim. Just press the red X in the top right corner

J. Sallé

@cairdcoinheringaahing what if you need to save before quitting? D:

caird coinheringaahing

@J.Sallé Don't use vim

J. Sallé

@cairdcoinheringaahing fair enough hahahahah

caird coinheringaahing

@J.Sallé Or, when it says "Save before quitting", click "Yes" :P

Erik the Outgolfer

18:05

@xnor what "edge cases?"

xnor

@EriktheOutgolfer when you pointed out it doesn't work for 100, i thought it was an edge case special to that

Erik the Outgolfer

@xnor oh, sorry I edited my comment later

NieDzejkob

18:26

@J.Sallé Vim replaces the status line with Type :qa! and press <Enter> to abandon all changes and exit Vim when you press C-c

J. Sallé

@NieDzejkob I wouldn't know, I've only used Vim once or twice. I usually use nano to edit text in a terminal.

And I avoid even that, I usually just open stuff with atom or sublime or something.

NieDzejkob

atom... reminds me of this

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LegionMammal978

wut

Somehow just got an offer to moderate /r/gifs

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caird coinheringaahing

20:15

For anyone who likes making languages, go free and spread your chaos

dzaima

@cairdcoinheringaahing “Hello World” requires 186 billion lines of code pretty sure Unary is plenty over that

also I need a feed of new nonfree news articles :p

Mr. Xcoder

I need help golfing something in Jelly. Anyone willing to help?

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder Yeah, I'me game. What's the golf (answer in JHT?)?

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Simply Beautiful Art

20:56

-2

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Some of you may be familiar with the BigNum Bakeoff, which ended up quite interestingly. The goal can more or less be summarized as writing a C program who's output would be the largest, under some constraints and theoretical conditions e.g. a computer that could run the program. In the same spi...

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^ Seeking feedback.

caird coinheringaahing

21:15

@SimplyBeautifulArt Well, it does have a CV for "too broad", which may be a place to start

Simply Beautiful Art

Ah, didn't notice that.

Too broad hm?

caird coinheringaahing

Personally, I don't think it's too broad per se, but I don't think it's a particularly interesting challenge.

Simply Beautiful Art

Perhaps. I don't mind people not taking it as interesting.

caird coinheringaahing

No reviews for hours, then 2 in one minute :P

Simply Beautiful Art

21:30

>.> I hope its not my answer to my question.

Being the second one I mean

caird coinheringaahing

One was about closing your question, the other was a question by a new user

Simply Beautiful Art

yay lol

Mr. Xcoder

Wow (9999)... Next level

Simply Beautiful Art

@Mr.Xcoder ?

You mean my silly program?

Mr. Xcoder

yeah

Simply Beautiful Art

21:32

Oh

It is over 9 thousand...

caird coinheringaahing

@SimplyBeautifulArt You can remove f= from your answer BTW

Simply Beautiful Art

@cairdcoinheringaahing ???

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing No he can't, it's recursive

Simply Beautiful Art

Uh

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THE CHALLENGE: Calculate the value of pi, correct to as many digits as you can. HOWEVER: You can only use the mathematical operators + , - , / and *, and also only integers are to be used in the code. You have to do this in the smallest amount of bits that you can! Many outputs are allowe...

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Simply Beautiful Art

21:33

Yeah

Also, think I did my breakdown in a good format?

caird coinheringaahing

ಠ_ಠ Stupid Ruby, using [] for both arrays and calling functions

Simply Beautiful Art

Hehe

Yeah, tbh it is sore eyes for me and those arrays

Mr. Xcoder

(x=9999).times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{‌x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x‌.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.times{x.‌times{x.times{x.times

... @SimplyBeautifulArt Are you sure are you a serios competitior?

Simply Beautiful Art

and its [] for calling lambdas and procs

Wheat Wizard

@cairdcoinheringaahing arrays are just functions

Simply Beautiful Art

21:34

@Mr.Xcoder :D Yeah mate

I mean

caird coinheringaahing

@WheatWizard That doesn't make me like it any more

Simply Beautiful Art

512 bytes is a lot

I needed some filler

Mr. Xcoder

@SimplyBeautifulArt Also if you have }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} in a code golf submission, you are most likely doing something wrong. :P

Wheat Wizard

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why don't you like it.

Simply Beautiful Art

:( Well what else am I supposed to do with the leftover 300 bytes?

I actually do have another program in the works that's crazy bigger than the current one.

But um

caird coinheringaahing

21:35

@WheatWizard I'd complain that it makes it more confusing, but if I complained when submissions confused me, I'd drown this room with complaints :P

Simply Beautiful Art

I'm still trying to understand the math behind it.

@cairdcoinheringaahing btw, you can use parentheses for functions e.g.

caird coinheringaahing

@SimplyBeautifulArt At least you acknowledged the humour behind the program: }}};p :P

Simply Beautiful Art

def f(x)
    print x
end

But it's way less golfy.

Mr. Xcoder

Is it just me or there haven't been any 05AB1E golfers around in the last couple of days?

Simply Beautiful Art

idk

caird coinheringaahing

21:37

@Mr.Xcoder All Americans, and it's Thanksgiving

Simply Beautiful Art

@cairdcoinheringaahing oh dear

Mr. Xcoder

Adnan is Dutch :p

Simply Beautiful Art

Oh tru

Haha, I've been working on my newest bignum program during Turkey day.

caird coinheringaahing

Hehe, while we are debating which languages are good/bad, I'm watching an ad telling me "Python is amazing, use Python 110% of the time" :D

Simply Beautiful Art

lol

caird coinheringaahing

21:38

@Mr.Xcoder He doesn't post as much as he used to recently

Simply Beautiful Art

I just had a conversation with someone about Python the other day

Mr. Xcoder

... And I am watching the Voice :P

Simply Beautiful Art

They found out Python doesn't support i++ and basically died.

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder English or Romanian?

Mr. Xcoder

What's that bad with i+=1

caird coinheringaahing

21:39

or Other?

@Mr.Xcoder It's a byte longer

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Romanian, but I do watch English on the internet sometimes too

Simply Beautiful Art

x'D They were complaining that every language should have an i++

Also that it should be very easy for the developers.

Mr. Xcoder

Anyways there are very good competitors this year (some of them :P)

caird coinheringaahing

@SimplyBeautifulArt I'm still confused about the difference between ++i and i++, so I believe that Python's solution is better

Simply Beautiful Art

Yeah same

That was the other guy's argument. That ++ is much more confusing.

Mr. Xcoder

21:41

@cairdcoinheringaahing i++ increments i after the expression is evaluated, ++i before.

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder Yeah, that doesn't help :P

Mr. Xcoder

Like ++5<6 is False, but 5++<6 is True IIRC (bad example!)

caird coinheringaahing

I've already had this conversation with people who use it regularly and they can't convey the different to me

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ok here is an example

caird coinheringaahing

Also, @Mr.Xcoder what is the key to your success? You've gone from no rep to a very high ranking user in just 8 months.

Mr. Xcoder

21:45

Hehe, gathering my tips altogether and responding in a sec

caird coinheringaahing

Plus 29/50 for Epic :P

Mr. Xcoder

hah yeah

Simply Beautiful Art

(doesn't get noticed for how much rep he's gained on math.se)

Mr. Xcoder

@SimplyBeautifulArt I really noticed you, make sure of that :P

caird coinheringaahing

@SimplyBeautifulArt Well, this is a PPCG chat room :P

Simply Beautiful Art

21:46

:P

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing 1. While I am awake and have time, I check for new challenges every hour or so. 2. If someone outgolfs me, I don't get discouraged and struggle to outgolf them back. 3. I answer in many languages (and actively learn new ones). 4. I try my best to post clear, well-specified challenges with a task that lacks any trace of subjectivity.

Simply Beautiful Art

lol

1. a.k.a. being addicted to se?

:D

Mr. Xcoder

@SimplyBeautifulArt No, not to se, to code golf. I kind of dislike SE's system but I think this community compensates that

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder 1) Check (when not at school), 2) Maybe I could do better at that, 3) What counts as many?, 4) After a short stint when I first started, check. Well, that's how I can improve :P

Simply Beautiful Art

Lol, close enough

Mr. Xcoder

21:51

s/second 3)/4/

Downgoat

Poll: how do you pronounce vim

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder My brain can't maths after reading SBA's answer :P

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh and 5) (I am most definitely not very proud of this): Fastest Gun in the West Effect.

Simply Beautiful Art

@cairdcoinheringaahing mission accomplished!

jk

But tbh

The brackets x.x

are the worst

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder Yeah, that's another problem with me. For some reason, I get think sick feeling when racing to make a functional answer and occasionally f*ck it up because of that

Simply Beautiful Art

21:54

lol

> For those who would like to learn how to use the fast growing hierarchy to approximate really large numbers, I'm hosting a Discord server just for that.

caird coinheringaahing

@SimplyBeautifulArt I have one problem with Maths.SE (well, two): I can't read MathJax without the symbol rendering, which makes it very hard to understand comments on mobile

Simply Beautiful Art

@cairdcoinheringaahing Hahaha

Well I can usually parse what the MathJax is saying without it rendering, but yeah, it is quite hindering.

caird coinheringaahing

E.g. I have no bloody clue what $\lim \limits_{x\to 0}{\sin{42x} \over \sin{6x}-\sin{7x}}$ is saying, and I could be a genius regarding whatever it is

(sorry ChatJax users)

Simply Beautiful Art

Hey, you borrowed that from a question I answered?

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Bringing clarifications to 3): ~5-10: for medium-harder challenges: Python and Pyth and occasionally Swift, for medium challenges: Jelly, Pyke, (sometimes) 05AB1E, for easy challenges: All of the above, Husk, Ohm, Gaia, Pyke, (sometimes also Japt, MATL), etc.

Simply Beautiful Art

21:56

:P

caird coinheringaahing

@SimplyBeautifulArt Yeah, I'm on your user page

Looking at the day you got +820 rep

Downgoat

Has anyone compiled a list of most popular languages used on PPCG?

Simply Beautiful Art

@cairdcoinheringaahing x'D

That was an interesting day

Downgoat

Jelly, JS, Python, 05ab1e, would definitely be at the top, idk what else

caird coinheringaahing

@Downgoat I don't think so, but it'd probably be weighted since only GolfScript existed before 2014 (regarding golfing languages)

Simply Beautiful Art

21:58

Fun fact: For a month or two (or three, idk), I managed to keep up with the amount of rep the top users on StackOverflow were getting.

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing There is another advantage to studying all those golfing languages: when you see a challenge you immediately know which would have well-suited features/built-ins

@SimplyBeautifulArt nice

@Downgoat Haskell.

Simply Beautiful Art

No, it was absolutely horrible lol. I had no life. x.x

Mr. Xcoder

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I was being nice

Simply Beautiful Art

Recommend no-one ever try that unless you're doing it on StackOverflow

:P

Transcript for