The Nineteenth Byte

Destructible Lemon

02:00

wait maybe not

how to optimise recursion?

I guess I'll need some version of if?

maybe I'll use a max function

that works with functions or something

executing a number as a function will be a nop or something

Pavel

@Christopher2EZ4RTZ When Kalashnikov made his rifle, the Soviet government took ownership of the design. Kalashnikov himself didn't (directly) earn any money at all for the AK-47.

Dennis

0

A: Golf you a quine for great good!

SimpleStack, 26 bytes «:171,::187,"»:171,::187," Try it online!

Pavel

Well, I suppose it earned him a promotion at work.

Destructible Lemon

ok so for my if I will use a max function that works with functions and numbers together

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon wat.

Destructible Lemon

02:05

actually maybe that's a cop out

ah, I have an idea for how to compare them

just use the function but with the number as all its arguments

aha this is not a very good idea

uh

also I will have a sign function

because sign

Pavel

@MDXF You can't, the minimum bounty on the quine post is 100

Destructible Lemon

also I will prioritise numbers over functions with max

Dennis

@Pavel Actually, @MDXF already placed a +200 bounty, so the new minimum is +400.

Destructible Lemon

hmm yeah maybe this is a bad idea

Pavel

Ah

Destructible Lemon

02:09

@Dennis ;_;

dang things

Pavel

@Dennis Does it eventually go to 800, 1600, etc. or does it cap at 500?

Dennis

It caps.

HyperNeutrino

cap at 500 ಠ_ಠ no bounty can exceed 500

(I wonder why though...)

(Also, can you award a bounty to the same answer twice?)

Dennis

You can.

Destructible Lemon

maybe I will have a repeat x times function to help work as an if function

Pavel

02:11

Presumably so it's harder to give a single user all of your rep in one go.

Destructible Lemon

should my lang have variables?

HyperNeutrino

@Pavel yeah makes sense

@DestructibleLemon depends. is it golfing or practical?

Destructible Lemon

impractical

Pavel

If that's even a question recreational must be assumed

Destructible Lemon

@Pavel functional languages resigned 😂😂😂😂😂

Pavel

02:13

Functional languages generally have variables.

They don't vary very much though.

Destructible Lemon

a fair amount don't

I think

constants maybe

Pavel

Haskell, F#, the MLs all allow you to assign a value to the concept of foo.

I can't think of any other functional languages off the top of my head.

Destructible Lemon

uh idk because I don't program them but I remember one that didn't

Pavel

If I'm programming in C# and declare const int a = 42;, most people would still call it a variable even though it will only ever contain 42.

Destructible Lemon

having no variables but constants = very different to having variables

Pavel

02:16

We call them variables even though they're constants.

Destructible Lemon

this language idea is starting to seem dumb

Pavel

Brainfuck probably seemed dumb, and look how popular it is now.

Destructible Lemon

nah

Dennis

@Pavel People also say I literally died.

Spoiler: they didn't.

Destructible Lemon

@Dennis some of them did

for a certain definition of dead

Pavel

02:18

From Wikipedia:

> In computer programming, a variable or scalar is a storage location paired with an associated symbolic name (an identifier), which contains some known or unknown quantity of information referred to as a value.

Notice the lack of mutability in that definition.

Destructible Lemon

a language with no variables is still very different even with constants

Dennis

Variable and constant are literally antonyms.

Destructible Lemon

> Variable (computer science), a symbolic name associated with a value and whose associated value may be changed

beat that

Pavel

;-; fine

Dennis

And while that may seem as a technicality if you have both, having constants but not variables definitely changes things.

HyperNeutrino

02:20

Variable -> Able to vary -> Mutable

Constant -> like literally just "constant" means "the same"

Destructible Lemon

@Pavel also from the article you had

> ... the value of the variable may thus change during the course of program execution.

quote miner!

MD XF

@Dennis Ahh darn I forgot, I'll find something else awesome of yours to bounty

Destructible Lemon

I think this is not allowed?

MD XF

@ATaco oh I meant to remove that a long time ago, it'll be fixed in the next push

Pavel

I like the F# approach to functional programming. You can be as functional as you want, but then occasionally if you want to cheat in a spot where functional programming doesn't make sense you can declare a variable mut or write a for loop.

MD XF

02:23

And I don't have foreach functionality yet because of the entire interpreter design which I'm planning on rewriting eventually

ATaco

Don't worry, I just about have the quine.

Pavel

@DestructibleLemon It's not like Dennis doesn't have many submissions that are bounty-worthy by themselves.

MD XF

@ATaco oh sweet

Destructible Lemon

ok what if I make a koth with a literal hill

MD XF

If you didn't notice Dennis already posted a SimpleStack quine so the bounty is taken

Pavel

02:26

@DestructibleLemon ascii-art king-of-the-hill

Destructible Lemon

no

not that

idk it might be a bit like king of tokyo or something

ATaco

@MDXF Oh, I just solved it.

Destructible Lemon

@ATaco haha

ATaco

We have the EXACT SAME solution.

@Dennis Shakes fist

Dennis

Tacos have fists?

Destructible Lemon

02:30

ok what if you make two bot submissions together, and you have to defend a hill against all the other bots, and the other bot attacks hills defended by another bot, being attacked by everyone

ATaco

I never said it was my own fist.

10

Destructible Lemon

:O

:Unnecessary face

HyperNeutrino

gtg o/

ATaco

o/

Pavel

@DestructibleLemon Idea: 2v2v2... co-op Koth, where player one and player two have different roles.

Destructible Lemon

02:34

hmmm

ok but why is it not one person making two bots

also that's a good way to have code review join maybe

ATaco

Koths should, IMHO, be very simple in design, with complexity arising from the bots themselves.

Pavel

@DestructibleLemon Because co-op is the entire point.

Destructible Lemon

@Pavel ok but I'm just saying the coop just turns into two people working on an idea as one person

which would be better as just one person

why don't we do a cops-robbers type koth like that cat waterbucket thing

with codereview

MD XF

@ATaco rip

Pavel

Cat waterbucket?

ATaco

02:37

Nah, Codereview aren't really into our competitions.

Destructible Lemon

@Pavel one of the asymmetric koths

Pavel

Link please.

Destructible Lemon

13

Q: Asymmetrical KOTH: Catch the Cat (Cat Thread)

Asymmetrical KOTH: Catch the Cat UPDATE: The gist-files are updated (including new submisisons) as the Controller.java did not catch Exceptions (only errors). It does now catch errors and exceptions and also prints them. This challenge consists of two threads, this is the cat thread, the catche...

@ATaco they didn't like people were being over the top and stuff, and like, jingoistic or something

with an asymmetric koth, all competition is intra-sited but still with inter-site interaction

because code-review will be like the cats, and we the catchers (or vice-versa I guess)

MD XF

@Dennis can I add a description to your SS quine?

ATaco

Eeeeh

Also, what defines a code-reviewer or a code-golfer, why can't someone compete in both?

Destructible Lemon

02:41

@ATaco self-identification I guess

it'll be a simple rule

Pavel

...with bonus points given for style?

Destructible Lemon

is there really anyone on the site who is straddling between code review and code golf?

MD XF

Wait a sec who downvoted my C quine ಠ_ಠ

ATaco

@MDXF Want to try your luck at a MaybeLater quine..?

MD XF

I'm not great at quining in esolangs but sure I'll take a look

Er documentation would be helpful

ATaco

02:47

@MDXF esolangs.org/wiki/Maybe_Later

That good enough?

Pavel

@MDXF My theory is that someone was cheesed by "untyped variable s"

MD XF

Mm I meant to fix that

@ATaco Yes thanks

Ok status-completed if downvoter downvoted this because of the "untyped variable" bs, I fixed it, pls reverse :P

Pavel

@MDXF So what you're saying is that h in TIO link might as well be untyped.

MD XF

Yep

Pavel

ಠ_ಠ

MD XF

02:51

Because everything in C is an integer under the hood

Pavel

ಠ_ಠ_ಠ

MD XF

what it's true

attempts to shake nagging doubt that you downvoted

:P

Pavel

I did

Dennis

@MDXF Done.

Destructible Lemon

so I think it's true that people think a koth based around a 2d language somehow would be good

MD XF

02:53

@Pavel "My theory" liar :P

@Dennis Nice thanks :)

Dennis

There will be a shorter quine after fixing @ though.

MD XF

Ah yeah and there's a 4-byte golf once I fix a couple things and actually write documentation

«:`«,::`»,"»:`«,::`»,"

ATaco

@MDXF I just found the answer, don't worry

Pavel

@MDXF Also, what downvote

mbomb007

@ConorO'Brien Nice score!

MD XF

02:56

@Pavel thank you :P

Pavel

It's a good quine I'm just bothered by "untyped variable"

Dennis

Yes, implicit type != no type.

MD XF

Yeah, I updated again with a link to your example

ATaco

@MDXF Call me when you have a 3 byte quine ;P

MD XF

@ATaco Yeah that's unlikely :P

ATaco

02:58

Fear the power of RProgN2's quines.

Dennis

@MDXF «@171%@187»@171%@187 is only 20 bytes.

MD XF

@Dennis Whoa

Dennis

Once @ behaves, that is.

MD XF

Ok why am I putting this off? Pushed, can you pull TIO's SimpleStack?

Pavel

Still waiting for some genius to come up with a nontrivial Preproc quine.

Or prove it impossible.

ATaco

03:00

Newlines are impossible, still.

Pavel

But do you need newlines.

ATaco

Yep.

You need atleast one # for it to not be trivial, and everything up untill the newline after the #define will be considered part of the #define, so to actually execute anything you need a newline.

MD XF

Is Preproc basically C?

ATaco

C without C.

Pavel

> With some preprocessors, it's possible that the sequence of characters
\u000A will expand into a newline during preprocessing (this is almost
legal C99 syntax, but the standard specifically says that this sort of
thing isn't allowed (6.4.3:2 in N1124.pdf)). (I haven't tested, but it
seems reasonable that at least one preprocessor will get confused into
emitting a newline in this situation; the #defines would be
substituted in stage 4, before the universal character names are even
considered by the compiler.) One point of interest is that universal

MD XF

03:02

Whoa

Pavel

@MDXF It's the C preprocessor.

MD XF

@Pavel Is there a spec?

Also @Dennis do you object to me finding a good answer of yours and giving it a +50 bounty, since I cannot do so on the quine challenge?

ATaco

We have newlines, we might be able to do this yet.

Dennis

@MDXF As long as you find one you deem worthy (rather then selecting one at random), that should be fine.

MD XF

Also if a quine has to encode part of the program to be valid, why is this valid if 0 in SimpleStack is not?

Pavel

03:04

@MDXF Nope, it's just the C preprocessor run on the code and then the result is output.

MD XF

@Pavel That's odd

So it's like each line is started with #?

Pavel

Only if that line has a preproccessor directive on it.

It boils down to cpp .code.tio -o temp && cat temp

There's some boilerplate though.

MD XF

Except it's cpp -x c++ .code.tio

Pavel

Actually cpp -P .code.tio

MD XF

Oh that's golfy

-P for preprocessing only?

Pavel

03:07

It isn't processed as C++, and you can't include <iostream>

ATaco

Example

Pavel

-P for don't generate line number comments.

cpp is C PreProcessor, not C PlusPlus, so there's no need to specify that only preprocessing is needed.

MD XF

Oh yeah it's g++ that's for c++

That's rather confusing

Pavel

Yep

MD XF

Ok so @ATaco were you the one who wanted to write a quine in my new esolang?

ATaco

03:09

Yep.

MD XF

What do you think I should call it? I'm making the repo now

ATaco

No idea, best of luck with that.

MD XF

darn

Newly Featured Questions

23

Q: Absolute Sums of Sidi Polynomial Coefficients

Background The Sidi polynomial of degree n – or the (n + 1)th Sidi polynomial – is defined as follows. The Sidi polynomials have several interesting properties, but so do their coefficients. The latter form OEIS sequence A075513. Task Write a full program or a function that, given a non-ne...

code-golf math sequence combinatorics polynomials

Destructible Lemon

@MDXF I might help

MD XF

03:11

@DestructibleLemon literally just about to ping you

Any good names up your sleeve? It's like a painful assembly

Destructible Lemon

uh

ASSembly ba dum ch

dismemberment?

ATaco

I'm going to post my RProgN2 quine list to claim the throne over V.

MD XF

interesting functionality of Preproc and something I didn't know

Destructible Lemon

uh how about a turing test koth

except it's a two sided koth with bots as the judge

ASCII-only

@MDXF Did you not know #1

Destructible Lemon

03:14

what is thought of this idea?

except that people are not deterministic

Pavel

@MDXF Which means that also works in C!

Destructible Lemon

maybe instead of a human, it's just a distinct chatbot or something

ASCII-only

@MDXF also this

@Pavel Of course >_>

Destructible Lemon

except that a chatbot would be really easy to replicate I guess

Pavel

@ASCII-only Well, both of those things are new to me.

Just because I made preproc doesn't mean I know how the C preproccessor works.

Destructible Lemon

03:17

either that or I could try using a cleverbot thing

definitely need to use a premade too complicated chatbot

to speed things up

Pavel

@MDXF Uhhh.... More intresting functionality!

ATaco

Looks like a feature to me.

Destructible Lemon

yay

Dennis

@Pavel You know that one of the spaces isn't a space, yes?

Pavel

No

I just hit spacebar a few times

I have no idea how that happened ._.

Dennis

03:25

The space between comma and 4 is NBSP.

Pavel

y tho

.__.

ASCII-only

@Pavel you must have broken your keyboard lol

@HyperNeutrino What are you talking about, Vegemite is clearly much more superior

Destructible Lemon

@ASCII-only why is there a :P

this is serious

Pavel

@Riker Eh, they're not actually like Ikea meatballs, which resemble "normal" meatballs. That word more closely refers a kind of patty.

Stephen

@Pavel Now I'm imagining DIY meatballs

ATaco

03:29

We've an extra screw.

Destructible Lemon

@Stephen uh like meatballs that need to be cooked?

Anonymous

@Pavel I imagine they're also not made out of horse

Pavel

Who knows? :P

Stephen

@DestructibleLemon It's IKEA, it can't be that simple

Destructible Lemon

so there's also the sauce?

Pavel

03:30

@Riker Note that a very simillar word in Russian actually does mean meatballs.

Фрикадельки

Stephen

Introductory programming classes are really boring

Pavel

Yes

Frikadellen resembles a Russian Котлета, which is pronounced like and comes from "Cutlet" but doesn't look like what you would think of a cutlet being.

Destructible Lemon

so, am I the only one who wants a new koth one can actually play (without learning annoying javascript or something)?

Pavel

Linguistics is weird.

ATaco

"Learning annoying javascript"

Pavel

03:36

Isn't it?

Destructible Lemon

yes

or java

ATaco

Just because you don't speak Javascript :P

Stephen

if it pays the bills it's worth it

Pavel

._.

Conor O'Brien

@mbomb007 thanks!

Destructible Lemon

03:38

@Pavel >_>

Stephen

My school bought me Mathematica, does that mean I have Pro?

Pavel

@Stephen Kinda? You can access W|A pro through a mathematica notebook.

Just type == <query>

It can also access variable defined elsewhere in the notebook, which is nice.

Stephen

@Pavel oh really? that's really nice to know

the things they don't teach you

ATaco

KOTHs that require Python make me sad.

Pavel

^

Stephen

03:41

@ATaco simple or complex? when they are simple ones it doesn't really matter

ATaco

Either way, It makes me sad.

Conor O'Brien

Python makes me sad

Pavel

^

Stephen

Destructible Lemon

@ATaco Koths that require javascript are far more saddening

Pavel

03:44

That is not incorrect

Destructible Lemon

@ConorO'Brien you have bad taste 😎

Stephen

obviously we need a KOTHScript

Destructible Lemon

uh

no

ok so I maybe have an idea for koth challenge again

however maybe it would be good for me to make a room where I post my koth ideas

do we have tank battle koths?

Destructible Lemon

04:15

how about a challenge to gather as much resources as possible, plus you can steal other peoples resources by destroying them

someone

by destroying people?

Destructible Lemon

yes

maybe there will be respawning?

nah maybe that's a bad idea

Pavel

05:10

@ASCII-only In case you were intrested, I'm working on an implementation of TIS-100 Assembly that supports proper i/o and no limits on how much code can be in a single node. It isn't usable yet, but the source code is at gitlab.com/pavelb/TIS-100

Destructible Lemon

@Pavel is that legal?

Pavel

That is an excellent question.

I'm going to take the risk that I won't get sued for a small open-source project that doesn't make money.

Destructible Lemon

change the name at least

@Pavel ok but that's not how you do things

Pavel

Changing the name does seem prudent.

ASCII-only

05:26

@Pavel TIS-1K

@Pavel pushes massive commit

Lol jk my conventions are really bad you probably don't want any of my code ever

Pavel

@ASCII-only I am planning to have extensions (such as MUL and DIV).

Destructible Lemon

I would say change it to something more different

Pavel

With a special flag, of course

ATaco

CMC: Given a list, add each element with the element of the same index once sorted. EG: [1, 8, 2, 5] -> [1, 8, 2, 5] + [1, 2, 5, 8] = [2,10,7,13].

Anonymous

@ATaco Actually, 3 bytes: ;S¥

Anonymous

05:39

Jelly, 2 bytes: +Ṣ

ATaco

@ATaco RProgN 2, 7 bytes ]§)T#+r

Pavel

05:53

p((a=eval$_).zip(a.sort).map{|i,j|i+j})

ASCII-only

@Pavel I meant 1k more as in improved code limit

Pavel

Also, char literals and ASCII output

I believe you could emulata mini-flak int TIS-1k, so it should be turing complete. Let's say a stack node is to the right of the operating node. {...} is start:; ...; JNZ start. {} is ADD RIGHT. (...) is ...; MOV ACC, RIGHT. () is ADD 1. [] is MOV ACC, RIGHT; SUB ACC; SUB RIGHT.

Well not quite

I think I made a mistake or two

But still

Leaky Nun

06:53

@HyperNeutrino it is "p or not p"

@HyperNeutrino Peano arithmetic is defined on <N,0,S,+,*>. S is a unary function [successor] which is injective, and 0 has no successor. + and * are binary functions that satisfy A4 through A7.

@HyperNeutrino that is a predicate

Anonymous

07:18

@LeakyNun Slight correction: the Peano axioms state that 0 is not the successor of any number. In other words, there does not exist an n such that S(n) = 0. You said that 0 has no successor - that there does not exist an n such that S(0) = n.

Fatalize

07:30

"0 has no predecessor"

Neil

09:43

@mbomb007 bah, I thought I was good at regex, but I played at easy level and only got 42744 (75%)

John Dvorak

I got to level 7 max difficulty, then my browser committed suicide instead of awarding me the seventh 100%

Twice.

Fatalize

@JohnDvorak I first read "my brother commited suicide"…

Erik the Outgolfer

12:14

@muddyfish is there any way to reverse the arguments of a function other than R in pyke?

Erik the Outgolfer

12:26

like, for example convert \x5V"{^_}"RJ to \x5V(reverse arguments thingy)J"{^_}

New Meta Posts

12:45

0

Q: Questions with an objective win criterion, but no strategy to achieve it

The Answer-Chaining Fibonacci and One OEIS after another challenges have quite a curious win condition. Quoting the former: Winning The winner of the challenge will be the person who posted the second most-recent submission (i.e., not the person who posted last, since they broke the chai...

discussion answer-chaining

Leaky Nun

13:06

@Mego thanks for the correction

@Fatalize right, you can phrase it like this

John Dvorak

CMC: given a permutation and a string, apply the permutation to the string. Example: "hello world ", [9,7,6,11,4,8,10,5,0,1,2,3] should produce "low ord hell". Reference implementation: ->str, per{(0 ... str.size).map{|i| str[per[i]]}.join}

Leaky Nun

@JohnDvorak Jelly, 2 bytes: ‘ị

AdmBorkBork

The out-of-bounds-turns-to-space is throwing off my nice elegant PowerShell answer.

Leaky Nun

@AdmBorkBork it isn't out of bound

there's a space after world

dzaima

@JohnDvorak SOGL, 4 bytes: {⁴Wp - 1-indexed

AdmBorkBork

13:13

@LeakyNun >.> maybe I need glasses, lol

Leaky Nun

@dzaima if 1-indexed then my answer would be 1 byte lol

AdmBorkBork

@JohnDvorak PowerShell, 23 bytes -- param($a,$b)-join$a[$b] ... with half of that just taking in the input

Leaky Nun

CMC: given a permutation and a string, apply the inverse of the permutation to the string. Example: "hello world ", [9,7,6,11,4,8,10,5,0,1,2,3] should produce "rld oole hwl". 4 bytes in Jelly.

John Dvorak

Actually... Ruby: ->str, per{per.map{|i| str[i]}.join}

Nathan Merrill

13:57

Java now has an official REPL called JShell :)

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