The Nineteenth Byte

El'endia Starman

12:03 AM

@Downgoat Is it not open-source? github.com/elendiastarman/tnbde

Downgoat

oh ok, sorry >_< I've apparently even starred it already so not sure how I forgot :| :P

ATaco

♪There's a starman waiting in the sky!♪

2EZ 4RTZ

@Downgoat you have a really cool name btw

Also ur blog is rly cool

@Downgoat If you left TNB i think I would miss u the most

Downgoat

12:28 AM

@El'endiaStarman made a PR for TNBDE

Also would it be OK if I did a PR with some design change (fonts, etc.)

ASCII-only

@2EZ4RTZ uh what? yes you can

@2EZ4RTZ also that means it's way too slow :P

2EZ 4RTZ

@ASCII-only yeah C is slow sometimes

Also is there a way to have it CUT lines not COPY

ASCII-only

@2EZ4RTZ wat how

@2EZ4RTZ huh what

@2EZ4RTZ oh yeah of course, why wouldn't there be

2EZ 4RTZ

@ASCII-only idk how tho?

ASCII-only

@2EZ4RTZ pls use google...

2EZ 4RTZ

12:38 AM

sed -e '1,3d' < t.txt

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat Oh sweet, syntax highlighting! Given your screenshot, I presume you've tested it? Also, did you make that change for both the SQL and JS text areas?

Downgoat

@El'endiaStarman Yeah, both textareas have the syntax highlighting editor, I also updated the JS too.

ASCII-only

oh also hi @El'endiaStarman it feels weird seeing you in TNB for the first time in ages haha

El'endia Starman

@ASCII-only Heh, I'll bet...

ASCII-only

@WheatWizard Do it in Jelly/J/05AB1E instead maybe :P

El'endia Starman

12:40 AM

I haven't been in here since February 9.

2EZ 4RTZ

@ASCII-only but won't it mess up with the script looping?

Wheat Wizard

@ASCII-only That is an eventual plan

However right now I know one of the TAs and he was going to talk to my TA about Brain-Flak.

ASCII-only

better idea: learn charcoal and submit an issue for the commands i'm missing (basically all of them) :P

Downgoat

@ASCII-only is REPL crash thing fixed in charcoal (and REPL clear?)

ASCII-only

@Downgoat idk, you can pull and try if you want

Downgoat

12:42 AM

btw is there docs or do I need to check source

ASCII-only

@Downgoat there's a wiki if that's what you mean

but it's very incomplete

Downgoat

:( 9/10 for github wiki

ASCII-only

@Downgoat too lazy to make a RtD one, plus it's so much more convenient

Downgoat

you can use gitbook or I can make JSON doc format => HTML if that would be useful

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat I prioritize usability far more than fanciness. With that in mind, sure, you can make a PR for that kind of thing.

Downgoat

12:46 AM

@mods could the Charcoal room be unfrozen?

2EZ 4RTZ

@ASCII-only yeah I can't get the script to cut instead of copy

Downgoat

@El'endiaStarman dumb question: how do I run the website? I tried doing python3 __init__.py and python3 apps.py

2EZ 4RTZ

@ASCII-only after much googling I can't figure it out. I need it to cut the lines as it goes but that will screw up the looping if I just cut it with tail

It is sad that PPCG is better for help with code then SO chats :P

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat Yer gonna need Django. Specifically, you'll need to create a Django project and stick the repo's code in there.

I didn't include the surrounding stuff in part because some of it is sensitive data (like a secret key) and in part because it's almost trivial (assuming you have experience with Django).

Oh, and not only that, but the database engine is Postgres, so you'll need a Postgres server running locally too.

Downgoat

1:28 AM

I was thinking about creating a Python 3 -> JavaScript converter as next big project

Entire python standard library is out of scope but I don't think python syntax will be too hard

El'endia Starman

I would be quite surprised if there wasn't one already.

ASCII-only

@Downgoat builtins would be easy

Downgoat

@El'endiaStarman there are python interpreters in JS but those are slow and cluncky

ASCII-only

@Downgoat some builtins

HyperNeutrino

I'm thinking of making a Proton -> Python 3 converter maybe. Probably not because Proton is slow and clunky but I can just tokenize+parse and then un-parse the program.

ASCII-only

1:30 AM

actually don't read it's really bad

Downgoat

I was thinking of outsourcing parsing to a parse.py which would use parse lib to parse files and then convert that to JSON to send to other program

Challenger5

@Downgoat I think I remember something in the Python docs saying not to do that very thing.

Downgoat

@Challenger5 link?

Challenger5

I don't know exactly.

It might have been some sort of FAQ

HyperNeutrino

obtw I might be starting a new practical language (getting deja vu yet?)

Downgoat

1:32 AM

@HyperNeutrino alternative idea: jump on VSL train :D

HyperNeutrino

huh?

Downgoat

VSL is pretty great

@HyperNeutrino github.com/vsl-lang/VSL

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino I feel like I'm reliving the same few weeks over and over again :P

HyperNeutrino

yeah I know what VSL is (Vaccinated Seal Laughs :P) but like how is that alternative idea to making new language

@ASCII-only hey at least it gets slightly better each time... (I hope?)

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino how is it not alternative idea?

Downgoat

1:33 AM

@HyperNeutrino you can help with VSL instead of start new lang. we have lot done on VSL but have a lot to do

ASCII-only

especially if a lot of people are complaining how it's too different to normal languages

HyperNeutrino

o I see

@ASCII-only complaining about what; my languages? :P

Downgoat

especially since I have 0 idea how to efficiently LLIR

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino VSL

HyperNeutrino

@Downgoat I have 0 idea what that is lol

@ASCII-only o ok

Downgoat

1:34 AM

@HyperNeutrino very great backend which does all things

HyperNeutrino

o cool thx

ASCII-only

@Downgoat that must be avocadOS backend (hmm I kinda want to continue that but it would be so much easier with VSL)

Downgoat

it has does really cool optimizations on exec graphs I can send you pdf if you want

HyperNeutrino

also VSL is written in JS so my help would be extremely limited

Downgoat

also there's the fact that LLIR needs like 10 parsers to be built for visual generation of Terms and TermQueries

HyperNeutrino

1:35 AM

rip

Downgoat

github.com/vsl-lang/LLIR/blob/master/src/Solver/defaults/…

ASCII-only

> hasn't worked on it in last 4 days

@Mr.Xcoder O_o you work on it that much?

Downgoat

@ASCII-only btw I have question

how do we do contentfold

do we use UInt64Arrays or something

ASCII-only

@Downgoat contentfold?

Downgoat

@ASCII-only constant folding for VSL

ASCII-only

1:38 AM

why uint64arrays

Downgoat

like we should be able to fold "abc" + "def"

but String class uses binary pointers

ASCII-only

@Downgoat we should fold before assigning pointer locations

Downgoat

@ASCII-only yes

so how do we fold "abc" + "def"

we would want constant folding to work on user-defined structs too

and even if not, String class's + that we need to fold is written in pointer-managing

ASCII-only

we either 1. write a basic interpreter, 2. implement operators etc, or 3. skip for bootstrap

HyperNeutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing lol my vacation starts about a month earlier and ends at the same time :P :P :P

Downgoat

1:41 AM

@ASCII-only but constant fold very important

:| how do we define ARCH now

ASCII-only

I mean we can still do constant folding without manipulation

Operators for primitives too

Downgoat

oic

wait we don't even need to do LLIR for bootstrap

we can just make crappy slow compiler

as long as it compile

ASCII-only

yeah

Downgoat

we can even just make VSL -> JS backend

and then rewrite in VSL and then write fancy LLIR compiler

ASCII-only

:P good idea actually

Downgoat

1:44 AM

can u c9 for vsl atm?

btw we have to fix coverage but I'll merge anyway

ok lemme merge and I'll add to backend branch

ASCII-only

@Downgoat okay

Downgoat

1:59 AM

if you aren't already convinced how horrible NPM is, just go here and type in the name of a common dependency (e.g. babel-cli)

ASCII-only

@Downgoat if who isn't convinced

Downgoat

was general message in TNB

so like if you are reading it then you are the you or if like ATaco is reading it he would be you

ASCII-only

@Downgoat TIL I am me

HyperNeutrino

2:15 AM

Can I get people to test this? (cc @JonathanAllan I fixed the 2^2^2^2 thingy; there was a major issue with the way I was recursively evaluating the parse tree)

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino exponent evaluation is still LTR, it should be RTL

HyperNeutrino

o

crap whoops I can fix that hold on

can you give be a test case where LTR vs RTL would change the result

too lazy to math rn

ASCII-only

4^4^4

literally anything but powers of 1 and 2

apart from power, all numbers evaluate to 1, -1 - 1 doesn't work

HyperNeutrino

o ok

o um I see where that went wrong

ASCII-only

wait no unary negate yet, ignore the second part

HyperNeutrino

2:23 AM

how about now: repl.it/KkTX/66

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino exponent is still broken :P

HyperNeutrino

well I mean I didn't do RTL yet :P

ASCII-only

everything else seems fine

HyperNeutrino

That was easy: repl.it/KkTX/67

literally just value **= subval -> value = subval ** value

anyway gtg o/

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino ... no

now 4 ^ 4 ^ 2 is broken

Downgoat

2:27 AM

@ASCII-only apparently there are still a lot of borks in parser + recursive type can u join c9 if u can

ASCII-only

:| there are?

ATaco

3:07 AM

@Downgoat Lonk?

Downgoat

3:19 AM

@ATaco yo solo hablo ingles, senior taco

ATaco

3:30 AM

No habla los salchichas.

@Downgoat i.gyazo.com/77b754b5f999545a86e821d096da8391.png

MD XF

Do we have a "print all the integers from 1 to n" (where n is input) challenge?

(If not I claim posting) similar to this

Downgoat

@ATaco this don't make sense even in english

@MDXF no but 0/10 really bad idea will downvote into oblivion if posted

MD XF

what why

ATaco

@MDXF 1 Byte. R.

Downgoat

@MDXF Cheddar, 2 bytes: |>

doing that is like having challenge to do n + 1. it's stupid

MD XF

3:35 AM

This wasn't downvoted into oblivion

Downgoat

it should have been but HNQ

MD XF

watches two downvotes immediately come in

Downgoat

people from SO are like "omg how dis jel-o do in 1 byet XD +1 so creativ"

MD XF

Fine fine this will go to waste :(

ATaco

Good thing there's a challenge then, hey?

Downgoat

3:37 AM

WHAT

~~oh wait~~ holy shit anything will be upvoted if it's easy enough

aww and it even uses bonuses

I guess we have a new worst challenge of PPCG

ATaco

1 byte for 2^32-1 R, 3 bytes for arbitrary, #p;

MD XF

that was easy

New Sandboxed Posts

3:50 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Remove ambiguous plurals! code-golf string Programming is very rigid. You can't tell a program to "print the banana count", you have to tell it to print the bananas variable. But when you do that, you end up with a problem: you don't know how many bananas you have beforehand, so you don't kno...

New Main Posts

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When you edit a post on SE, any further edits within a 5-minute grace period are merged into it. Given a list of times you edit a post, count the edits not in a grace period. Say you edit at minutes [0,3,4,7,9,10,11,12]. This results in 3 edits at times [0,7,12], with the rest happening in their...

New Sandboxed Posts

4:41 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Is it a strong word? code-golf string They say that hate is a strong word. I wanted to find out why, so I had a good look at the word. I noticed that every consonant had a vowel after it. That made it look quite strong to me, so I decided that that's what makes a word strong. I want to find ...

Mistah Figgins

Go check out this cool answer, really creative use of "get"

Pavel

5:02 AM

@Adám I noticed you're giving a talk called "Literal Notation for Arrays and Namespaces". Are you secretly trying to make Dyalog golfier? :P

Adám

@Pavel Golfier? No, just better. I'm proposing a notation which allows even rank, nut just depth, as currently. I'm also proposing a notation similar to JSON for APL objects ("namespaces"), and a couple of other things. I already made APL golfier with ⊆ which is {(,~~⍵)/,⍳⍴⍵} in version 16.0.

Although I guess my new notation can save space sometimes.

Pavel

I'm fascinated by APL, but it seems like too much effort to actually learn properly.

Having to learn a new keyboard layout really puts me off.

Adám

@Pavel I'll be happy to help.

@Pavel You don't have to. There is always a language bar you can use to enter APL symbols, and if you use the RIDE interface, you can enter keywords that are then auto-translated to symbols. That being said, I learned the entire keyboard in an hour when I was 12. I'm sure I could teach you most of it very quickly.

Pavel

I guess I have no excuse then.

Is there a free version of dyalog for students, by any chance?

Adám

@Pavel Nope, head over to the APL chat room and get started.

@Pavel Even for non-students. The personal licence is completely free.

@Pavel Personal and Educational. They are completely equivalent. We only have both because the personal one used to have a small fee, but now they are both free. I hope to convince management to give up on the registration soon.

Pavel

5:17 AM

Thanks, I just applied for a personal license.

Adám

@Pavel Nice. Karen should approve you within a couple of hours when she comes in to the office.

Cyoce

5:30 AM

What's the shortest way to reverse an array in J? I have <:@(-i.)@#{[

Adám

@Cyoce |.

Cyoce

...

Uninstalling life..

Pavel

5:42 AM

I want to star the above conversation but I don't feel like any of the messages are individually starworthy.

Adám

@Pavel I think what people usually do is to star one, and those that click on the starred msg will see the context.

Pavel

Well, hopefully people cotton on and star my message some more.

Wait, is J essentially ASCII APL?

Adám

@Pavel Not quite, but it started out like that.

Cyoce

That's the basic premise.

Adám

However, J has huge emphasis on tacit programming, and is also very "pure", at the cost of practicality sometimes.

Pavel

5:49 AM

From what I've seen of APL it likes tacit programming too.

Adám

@Pavel APL has become multi-paradigme. You can mix and match tacit, functional, OO, procedural as you see fit. Use the tool for the job. For good reason, many of the APL solutions on PPCG are tacit, as that is often shortest.

Cyoce

J technically has an OO system...

Adám

@Cyoce Uh, yes, technically. APL has a fully integrated real Java/C# OO.

Pavel

In the same way python technically supports private methods?

Cyoce

But they're not actually private, right?

Pavel

5:53 AM

They aren't directly accessible the normal way.

Adám

In Dyalog APL, private methods and fields are actually private. You can't even tell that they exist except from inside the class/instance.

Pavel

In C#, private methods are accessible through reflection and black magic.

ASCII-only

@MDXF :| nonworking

ATaco

6:17 AM

I made a strawpolls userscript. @2EZ4RTZ

ASCII-only

@ATaco :D

Pavel

@ATaco Link please

ATaco

github.com/TehFlaminTaco/TacosUserscripts/blob/master/… or a-ta.co/userscripts

Pavel

Does it only track strawpolls that would onebox or all referenced strawpolls?

ATaco

all strawpoll.me links

It does also grab []() links,¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A new strawpoll will take up to 15 seconds to appear in the widget (For Bandwidth reasons, #BandwidthIsntCheap)

Pavel

6:25 AM

Oh, is this all being funneled through a-ta.co?

ATaco

Yep, although in retrospect there was nothing I couldn't do clientside, but my first thought was websocket.

Pavel

Are you hosting a-ta.co or do you have a vps?

ATaco

VPS.

(Oh wait it would have been almost impossible to do the Strawpoll API calls)

Actually bandwidth is pretty cheap now adays.

Pavel

Cool

How much bandwidth does I am Typing use up?

ATaco

I can't imagine much at all.

I used less than 2 GB overall for the month of July, that's also including the usage of the website itself, and my FTP shinanigains.

ASCII-only

6:47 AM

ATaco

Well that's not very high res.

ASCII-only

>_> it's the sidebar

higher res just for you :P

Pavel

Ow. Sorry.

Cyoce

7:46 AM

1919x1279?

ASCII-only

@Cyoce :P didn't realize

Too lazy to drag all the way to the corner lol

Cyoce

that's a lot of work

ASCII-only

@Cyoce I know right

Never underestimate the difficulty of dragging that extra pixel further

Cyoce

and here I am on 800x600

ASCII-only

@Cyoce 80x60 is better :P

Cyoce

7:55 AM

It's not on the menu and I'm lazy

Lawbreakers lets you set the resolution in the dev console so I play on 400x300 :(

Erik the Outgolfer

8:40 AM

spam bounty

Mr. Xcoder

Oh god.... I can literally feel those answers being written and ready to be posted

Anonymous

9:31 AM

@Mr.Xcoder Well... We are hoping to post next week :P

Anonymous

9:42 AM

I swear the devs of this one (not public-facing) site I use are just mashing at their keyboards randomly... They removed the search box for no reason, but didn't bother removing the search API, so you can just append /search?q=whatever to the URL and searching works.

ASCII-only

@Mego *monkeys

Anonymous

Really though. Why would you remove the search bar, but not also remove the GET API?

ASCII-only

~~Internal use maybe :P~~ wait no ~~so the devs can run bots~~ that's a good question

Sherlock9

10:27 AM

slow clap is the appropriate response, I think

And maybe an email to let the developers know about their goof

Anonymous

This site is a research resource site for CS, so it's even more baffling that they'd leave the API after removing the search bar. Maybe it's some sort of test :P

Anonymous

@Sherlock9 People have complained about it plenty, to no avail

Anonymous

My guess is terrible management

Mr. Xcoder

10:52 AM

what search bar has been removed?

I finally got the graduation design userscript... Now I got rid of the ugly blue :-))

What's that thing "Replace Common Usernames"?

ASCII-only

11:18 AM

@Mr.Xcoder It was mostly to fix Helka's username + avatar :P

Mayube

man, codepen is actually really useful for front-end dev, I might buy the pro plan

Anonymous

12:17 PM

Hooray, chat autoscrolling is fixed

betseg

1:07 PM

\o/

nvm

Ven

mmh, wish I could find some way to get a "combinations" op in cjam, as in "abc" => ["a", "ab", "abc"].

ASCII-only

1:23 PM

@Ven how is that combinations

Adám

@Ven Looks like prefixes to me. (,\ in APL)

Ven

1:41 PM

Ok. Prefixes then. Or suffixes.

HyperNeutrino

dammit this chromebook keeps freezing for about 10 seconds every 2 or so minutes

Yay Python

(cc @ASCII-only) fixed my stupid attempt at RTL exponentiation; can I get people to test this? repl.it/KkTX/68

betseg

wat dis?

H.PWiz

@HyperNeutrino 2^2 = 0?

HyperNeutrino

a calculator

^^ huh?

not for me?

ASCII-only

@H.PWiz power not xor

H.PWiz

1:51 PM

My bad, I just put it straight in and did XOR

HyperNeutrino

lol

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino works now yay

HyperNeutrino

it's for a programming language that I'm attempting to create

^^ yay

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino ew python

HyperNeutrino

@ASCII-only :(

HyperNeutrino

2:26 PM

rip my grade 11 CS online course

the first unit is about careers in computer science

which is like exactly what I did last year because of the grade 10 Careers course

DJMcMayhem

3:27 PM

@Pavel What you could do is bookmark that conversation...

How to learn APL

10 hours ago, 15 minutes total – 13 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked 45 secs ago by DJMcMayhem

And then that could be starred

Lembik

hi all

sometimes I have a real life coding problem and think of ppcg :)

Mr. Xcoder

Hi

caird coinheringaahing

@Lembik That's basically how this site started

Lembik

@cairdcoinheringaahing :)

Alex K Chen

Anybody here who knows python ? (except Mego)

betseg

3:43 PM

define "know"

caird coinheringaahing

@AlexKChen Yes, me

(and no-one else :D)

Alex K Chen

I have a very werid problem.

caird coinheringaahing

@AlexKChen What is it?

Alex K Chen

class Board():
	def __init__(self,parent,m, w, color='red'):
		self.parent = parent
		self.canvas = Canvas(parent, width = m*w, height = m*w,bg=color)
		self.canvas.pack()

		self.m = m
		self.w = w
	def draw_board(self):
		print(self.m, self.w)
		m = self.m
		w = self.w
		for i in range(m):

			self.canvas.create_line(0,i*w, m*w, i*w, fill = "yellow", width = 3)
			self.canvas.create_line(i*w, 0 , i*w, m*w, fill = "yellow", width = 3)

Mr. Xcoder

@AlexKChen I am here

caird coinheringaahing

3:44 PM

@AlexKChen What about it?

@Mr.Xcoder I beat you on this one this time :P

Mr. Xcoder

@AlexKChen And...?

Alex K Chen

Okay, this works perfectly for drawing a checkerboard with m columns and rows in tkinter.

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well, that's different from person to person :D

caird coinheringaahing

So what is the problem?

DJMcMayhem

@AlexKChen Aye

Mr. Xcoder

3:44 PM

And what do you want to achieve?

Alex K Chen

But.. when I add self.draw_board() in __init__(), an error shows !

caird coinheringaahing

@AlexKChen What error?

Alex K Chen

i.e this code shows an error:

 class Board():
	def __init__(self,parent,m, w, color='red'):
		self.parent = parent
		self.canvas = Canvas(parent, width = m*w, height = m*w,bg=color)
		self.canvas.pack()
		self.draw_board()
		self.m = m
		self.w = w
	def draw_board(self):
		print(self.m, self.w)
		m = self.m
		w = self.w
		for i in range(m):

			self.canvas.create_line(0,i*w, m*w, i*w, fill = "yellow", width = 3)
			self.canvas.create_line(i*w, 0 , i*w, m*w, fill = "yellow", width = 3)

Mr. Xcoder

What is the error message again?

caird coinheringaahing

That's the code you just sent

Alex K Chen

3:45 PM

I have only added the "self.draw_board()" in init

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing No, they moved their function calls a bit

caird coinheringaahing

@AlexKChen What is the error message? That'll tell us what the error is

Mayube

what error are you getting?

Alex K Chen

Wait guys, I type a bit slowly.

Mr. Xcoder

No need to bold :p

Alex K Chen

3:46 PM

`Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#50>", line 1, in <module>
    b = Board(a, b, 8, 20)
  File "<pyshell#49>", line 4, in __init__
    self.canvas = Canvas(parent, width = m*w, height = m*w,bg=color)
TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for *: 'Board' and 'int'`

caird coinheringaahing

@AlexKChen Ok, what arguments are you giving Board when you call it?

Alex K Chen

But if you don't add the call in init, and type b = Board(root, 8, 20), and then type b.draw_board(), it works perfectly.

@caird b = Board(root, 8, 20) (color is optional)

betseg

maybe put self.draw_board() after self.m,self.w=m,w?

Alex K Chen

What the hell. Facepalm. Of course you're right @betseg

Mr. Xcoder

		self.m = m
		self.w = w
                self.draw_board()

^

Ninja'd by betseg

betseg

3:49 PM

@Mr.Xcoder ninja'd

Alex K Chen

Yeah yeah thanks @Mr.Xcoder @betseg @cairdcoinheringaahing

Mr. Xcoder

Np

Alex K Chen

?

(Oh and you two guys ninja each other)

caird coinheringaahing

@AlexKChen No problem

betseg

No Problem

Mr. Xcoder

3:50 PM

No problem.

God

betseg

lol

Alex K Chen

lol

*ninjad

Mr. Xcoder

Pls stop the ninja's

betseg

double ninja'd actually

Mr. Xcoder

brb posting challenge.

caird coinheringaahing

3:51 PM

@Mr.Xcoder We can't really help it, unless we are all the same user

Mr. Xcoder

Downgoat's user script is absolutely amazing

caird coinheringaahing

@Mr.Xcoder Have you just realised that?

Alex K Chen

Okay, so I am creating a simulator for IMO SL 2011 C5 in tkinter, so if any difficulty arises, I will ping you three today (until one hour-ish), okay ?

caird coinheringaahing

@AlexKChen Only ping one of us. It doesn't matter who, but only one

(ping me. Mr.Xcoder only knows golfed Python :P)

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing I just installed it

Alex K Chen

3:53 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing OK.

Mr. Xcoder

@cairdcoinheringaahing That's false.

Alex K Chen

(what does your name mean btw ?)