The Nineteenth Byte

GolfScript and APL-like used to be one of the shortest languages in the early days of PPCG (from what I've seen), then at the start of the bloom of esolanging, CJam and Pyth emerged and took over. Now Jelly and 05AB1E knocked CJam and Pyth off the ring. I wonder what the next languages that beat Jelly and 05AB1E will look like

Mr. Xcoder

@Mayube Editing.

@KritixiLithos Have you forgotten J?

Zachary T

1:11 PM

Probably a transpiled language.

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder J rarely competed with GolfScript and APL because it uses about 50% more characters than APL for exactly the same thing.

Stephen S

@Adám That's why Jelly came along, right?

Zachary T

Except when it had the builtins.

Mr. Xcoder

@KritixiLithos Probably Mathematica with 1-byte long built-in names and a custom code page.

@StephenS Yes.

Adám

@StephenS Yes, but Jelly took it a step further: By splitting monadic and dyadic functions/verbs, parentheses could be removed, making it even shorter than APL.

Zachary T

1:12 PM

And 05AB1E, no parens needed because of it's stack-based nature

Adám

@ZacharyT Yes, but they are mostly very mathematical in nature.

Zachary T

The reason Jelly's winning everything: Dennis.

Kritixi Lithos

we're still seeing the same stack-based/tacit nature of these languages over the years

Jim

@Mr.Xcoder Where does that come from?

Kritixi Lithos

(with the exception of Pyth, of course)

SIGSEGV

1:14 PM

Will Jell'o'matica come

Zachary T

If anything is almost unbeatable, it's Jelly/APL hopped up on Mathematica/Sympy ( a lot more so than currently for Sympy)

Adám

@ZacharyT JellomaticAPyL

6

Stephen S

Well, SOGL has only used like a third of its codepage, and it's winning KC challenges

Kritixi Lithos

but if we start seeing a tide of a completely different type of challenges on PPCG, langs like Jelly and 05AB1E might not make it out

SIGSEGV

"Build an app in 30 minutes". How promising.

Stephen S

1:17 PM

@KritixiLithos Like Charcoal, but one for every different kind of challenge?

Zachary T

And with bytes that can effectively extend the number of commands forever, wow... (planning to do that with MY, but that will take a while)

Jim

@ZacharyT How can you extend the code page forever? You'll hit a compression limit at a point

Stephen S

So for a codepage, do you actually have to be able to save a file that is x bytes, or can you just say "I can map these chars onto all 256 bytes"

Zachary T

There, edited.

Jim

@StephenS There must be an implementation that is able to save the file with this encoding

Adám

1:20 PM

@feersum I just realised that I only have a single character mapped to the AltGr+Shift,AltGr+Shift layer: ⊙ is mapped to AltGr+Shift+U,AltGr+Shift+D.

@ZacharyT Jelly already reserves a few bytes to extend the code page: ØÆæŒœÐ. The more extension letters you use, the less single-letters you have left for the more commonly used operations. Over time, new languages will approach the right balance. J actually pioneered this by using . and : to extend ASCII.

See jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm

Mr. Xcoder

@Jim What does what come from?

The repcap?

Jim

@Mr.Xcoder Someone in the chat confirmed that. Could be Dennis or Leaky Num, I can' remember

Mr. Xcoder

@Jim What?

I don't understand what you mean

Who confirmed what?

Adám

Arrrg.

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám If that's because of my confusion, sry.

@ZacharyT Ignore get-into stuff

Jim

1:28 PM

@Mr.Xcoder Well, I'm not sure what we're talking about now. You were referring to my comment "There must be an implementation that is able to save the file with this encoding". Was that unclear in the beginning?

Mr. Xcoder

@Jim I did not refer to your comment...

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder @Jim Can't you just start over your conversation from Jim's response to StephenS?

Mr. Xcoder

Permalink?

Jim

4 mins ago, by Mr. Xcoder

@Jim What does what come from?

Mr. Xcoder

@Adám Thanks.

@Jim I pinged you because of your old comment:

18 mins ago, by Jim

@Mr.Xcoder Where does that come from?

What were you talking about back then. That's what I was trying to say

New Main Posts

1:32 PM

1

Q: Playing with robots for kids - Which letter will I reach?

We have at home a very simple programmable device for kids: a small vehicle with buttons to make the vehicle go forward, turn 90 degrees left or turn 90 degrees right. We also have a foam mat with letters like this: The purpose of all this is to teach the kids both the alphabet and the rudimen...

Jim

@Mr.Xcoder Okay, sorry, I had actually forgot about that. Where does Cthulhu come from? (and sorry for the noise)

Mr. Xcoder

@Jim Wait a bit, I'll give you a link to Cthulhu

@Jim Look at the comments of this question, Martin's and Mayube's.

@Jim This is Cthulhu.

Apologies everyone for the mess in the chat.

Jim

@Mr.Xcoder Okay, thanks for the reference.

Stephen S

@Jim OK, showing my ignorance here. For example, I don't see any code in Jelly's interpreter (I don't know Python, but that's beside the point) that does that. What am I missing?

Zachary T

So, any up-and-coming golf langs that might beat Jelly and/or 05AB1E?

Stephen S

1:43 PM

@ZacharyT Charcoal, for pattern ASCII art or KCs

Zachary T

KC = Kolmogorov Complexity?

Stephen S

@ZacharyT Yup

Erik the Outgolfer

@ZacharyT yup you butchered that

Stephen S

@ZacharyT Here's an example, Charcoal did it in 2, 05AB1E did it in 6, Jelly did it in 9

Jim

@StephenS Second time you link that post, you must have been disturbed by it

Business Cat

1:46 PM

@StephenS Woah what happened to not upvoting trivial solutions

Stephen S

@Jim Well it's the go-to example of Charcoal :/ (and it was on my challenge so it's easy for me to find)

Jim

@StephenS Well, I am just repeating what someone told in this very chat, I have no further proof of that, sorry

Stephen S

@Jim I'm more asking how to do it :P

Here's another example of Charcoal: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/120065/65836

Jim

@StephenS Open a file in binary mode, and do bitwise operations

Zachary T

Files, files, files. Any golf-lang that has built-ins for files?

Jim

1:48 PM

@ZacharyT Pyth has '

Zachary T

And that does?

Stephen S

@Jim So you have to save the Unicode as a file through the interpreter, so that it gets saved as the codepage's bytes?

Jim

https://github.com/isaacg1/pyth/blob/master/rev-doc.txt
It opens a file or URL. There is also `.w` for writing files or images

Adám

@ZacharyT APLX uses ⍐ ⍗ ⍇ ⍈ for files.

Zachary T

"APL isn't a golfing language"... wow

Stephen S

1:51 PM

@ZacharyT "APLX"

Jim

@StephenS I think the interpreter must be able to execute a file containing the code. Another tool or the interpreter itself must be able to write the code in a file

Zachary T

I don't thing APLX was meant for code golfing.

Hey, do these seem like decent one-byte atoms?
https://bitbucket.org/zacharyjtaylor/my-language/src/d00ff3db64950a05e37e2cde99734923d7ee26be/commands.txt?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default

*think.

I don't think APLX was meant for code golfing.

3

Who starred that? (And still has it starred)

Stephen S

@Dennis OK, I'm dumb. I'm trying to figure out how interpreters do custom code pages. What's the suggested method for saving Jelly code, as single bytes and not UTF-8? I can see how it reads it, but I have no clue where/how you would save it, at least simply. If it's not simple, that answers my question.

Zachary T

Probably just pure bytes.

Fatalize

Is it me or is Github slow as hell?

Zachary T

2:02 PM

Just you.

Mr. Xcoder

3

CensoredUsername

@StephenS I assume that the interpreters for those languages provide a way to convert between the actual unicode representation and the one in the custom codepage.

Mayube

@Mr.Xcoder you have 1 month to get an additional 333 views

CensoredUsername

but without making the question active

Mr. Xcoder

@Mayube What?

Zachary T

2:07 PM

All the 3's

Mr. Xcoder

@Mayube Not my post

Mayube

@Mr.Xcoder gotta get to 3333 views before the month changes

Mr. Xcoder

Not my post again :P

Erik the Outgolfer

guys...you can use f12!

Mr. Xcoder

I have started posting stuff in March :P

that's 3 & 1/2 months ago, totally not 3 years :)

Mayube

2:10 PM

@Mr.Xcoder 4 months could be represented as 3 and 3/3 months ago

New Main Posts

1

Q: A lean, mean bean machine

A classic example to introduce people to the concept of a discrete probability distribution is the bean machine. This machine has a large amount of marbles fall from a narrow passageway at the top, after which they hit rows of interlaced pins, where at each pin the marble hits it might fall to th...

code-golf ascii-art probability-theory

Mr. Xcoder

@Mayube Even better

2017/3 = 672,33333333

Stephen S

My $%@# phone cord always unplugs while I'm debugging, then doesn't want to reconnect, so I have to mess around with it for 2 minutes every time I move it an inch while I'm looking at debug data

Zachary T

I can't stand using commas as separators.

Adám

@ZacharyT Whoo, we're releasing Dyalog APL 16.0 this week! Includes ⎕CSV which handles any char as sep.

Stephen S

2:15 PM

@ZacharyT | is the best delimiter

Mr. Xcoder

@StephenS I like ~ instead

Or • and ¶

Stephen S

wait, what if someone made an esolang where input was a list, but the delimiter determined what the code did

Zachary T

(I was talking about digit separators)
Seriously, ⎕CSV, for something other than commas? Doesnt CSV stand for COMMA separated values?

Mr. Xcoder

@ZacharyT It does.

@Adám Should name it ⎕SV instead

Zachary T

Stephen S

2:17 PM

@ZacharyT Oh, in that case, I can't stand using a comma as the decimal point

Zachary T

I can't stand using commas in numbers AT ALL!

Mr. Xcoder

That's crappy

Zachary T

What is "crappy"?

Mr. Xcoder

@ZacharyT Commas in numbers

Sadly, in my country the only accepted separator for numbers is , and I hate it too

Stephen S

@Mr.Xcoder Tell that to the 743,1 million people living in Europe

Zachary T

2:19 PM

The , or . in a number like 5.00/5,00 is pointless

Mr. Xcoder

@StephenS It is hard, because I am supposed to tell that to myself. I live in Europe

Erik the Outgolfer

I live in Europe too...I hate the comma

Zachary T

5,123/5.123 is ambiguous, so ambiguous.

Mr. Xcoder

Everyone HATES COMMAS

Stephen S

Honestly everything would be easier (but not smaller) if computers just stored decimal numbers as ratios or irrational constants

CensoredUsername

2:22 PM

does your "everything" include the lives of hardware and compiler designers?

Zachary T

It would be harder on the computers.

Adám

@ZacharyT For some reason, Comma is the official expansion of C in ⎕CSV, but it should really be CharacterSV.

Stephen S

@CensoredUsername Well... if Mathematica can do it, so can anyone... that's how it works, right?

Zachary T

The ratios might be decent, I think there's something with ' for ratios in computers?

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám of course it should be tabs...spaces are too precious to be separators

Adám

2:23 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer Yeah, I prefer tabs too.

@Mr.Xcoder Or just ⎕V, it handles fixed width fields too – they're not Separated.

Erik the Outgolfer

why not just ⎕? :P

or even just nothing???

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer ⎕ is STDIN

Stephen S

@Adám If it's that important, why isn't it even a part of my computer's fonts

Erik the Outgolfer

I think it's a rectangle by itself not unrecognized unprintable

Zachary T

Hey, can someone give me a quick Python3 way to round a number to the nearest integer?

Yeah, it is just a rectangle.

HyperNeutrino

2:29 PM

lambda k:int(k+.5)

Erik the Outgolfer

@ZacharyT round

Uriel

@StephenS because your computer designer was not enlighten by the power of APL

HyperNeutrino

that exists?

whoops

Zachary T

Thanks.

Mr. Xcoder

@ZacharyT int(n+.5), as ususal ninja'd by @HyperNeutrino

Wheat Wizard

2:30 PM

Is it possible to define an integer sequence a such that forall a(a(n))=2n?

Erik the Outgolfer

it even accepts second parameter

HyperNeutrino

@Mr.Xcoder what do you mean "as usual"?

@EriktheOutgolfer that seems very useful. so wait, round(x, y = 1) rounds x to the nearest multiple of y?

Mr. Xcoder

@HyperNeutrino You always outgolf, suggest golfings or ninja me

HyperNeutrino

ah :P

Erik the Outgolfer

@HyperNeutrino no it's round x to y decimal places

Zachary T

2:31 PM

An integer sequence? I dunno.

Uriel

@WheatWizard a(n)=sqrt(2)*n

HyperNeutrino

@EriktheOutgolfer oh okay.

CMC: Given x and y, round x to the nearest multiple of y.

Wheat Wizard

@Uriel Thats not an integer sequence

@Uriel proof?

Zachary T

I think Jelly or 05AB1E has a builtin for that.

Erik the Outgolfer

@ZacharyT nope

Jelly has round to nearest power though

Zachary T

2:34 PM

Actually/Seriously?

HyperNeutrino

@WheatWizard is that what you were asking?

Erik the Outgolfer

@HyperNeutrino Jelly, 5 bytes: ÷+.Ḟ×

Uriel

@WheatWizard only for positive integers?

HyperNeutrino

nice

Wheat Wizard

@HyperNeutrino $a : \mathbb{Z} \rightarrow \mathbb{Z}, \forall n : a(a(n)) = 2n $

I'm not so sure about your notation there ^ is what I meant

Mr. Xcoder

2:37 PM

@WheatWizard chat ain't MSE

Wheat Wizard

@Uriel Sure, but then a must map from positive integers to positive integers.

Zachary T

It shouldn't be too hard to make it non-negative. a(0)=0

Wheat Wizard

I think I have it

Business Cat

@HyperNeutrino CJam, 9 bytes: q~:D/moD*

I hope it's ok that (3, 2) gives 2 but (3.0, 2) gives 4

Mr. Xcoder

Gtg now.

Adám

2:40 PM

@StephenS Quite the opposite, being that important, it is the only glyph which will render correctly even if your computer's fonts don't support it!

HyperNeutrino

@WheatWizard eh close enough, I don't know proper notation xd

Wheat Wizard

This works

HyperNeutrino

oh nice

Zachary T

@Adám It depends on how computers render non supported characters.

Don't some systems display unsupported codepoints as ?

In my case with my linux, unsupported characters are just a box with the hex code in them.

Erik the Outgolfer

@ZacharyT linux specific though...and js often sucks at that