The Nineteenth Byte

totallyhuman

9:00 PM

i like how i found unicode characters that are totally not for what i'm using them for

PhiNotPi

@betseg r/softwaregore

totallyhuman

ok now let's see if the second answer of my language will get downvoted to oblivion

HyperNeutrino

@totallyhuman 2666 reputation

> 666

totallyhuman

@Mendeleev pls don't

Mendeleev

@totallyhuman Why not?

HyperNeutrino

9:06 PM

@Mendeleev 6 giveaway?

Mendeleev

@HyperNeutrino huh?

HyperNeutrino

one plus 5 = 6

2

Mendeleev

kek

HyperNeutrino

also, good luck to webcrawlers trying to figure out my email address

ATaco

They just skipped that with me when I didn't use WhoIs protection.

HyperNeutrino

9:08 PM

It looks like my email address is

alpxeumABxamtOfp.tPYjFmVmyhPvdkAfrlTjAfAQvLsSjCJh.eiAgGZYeBEtrTylgzzzceIWRzmjPD‌HMimwuWtXvvMofmMvGIIhaeANwDGpuciAQOGbhwaKco@gmail.com

on first glance :P

Okx

That Leo guy wants to say my solution doesn't count because 'it is too much like a 1 byte solution' codegolf.stackexchange.com/posts/comments/316723?noredirect=1

Mendeleev

@HyperNeutrino Wait, is that your real contact info?

HyperNeutrino

The method to figure out which characters to keep is rather easy, but not for a bot

@Mendeleev yes

Mendeleev

Oh

HyperNeutrino

please do not spam me. i have connections with the NSA >:-)

i mean wat you saw nothing

totallyhuman

9:09 PM

tfw somebody upvotes your posts and then retracts it

;-;

HyperNeutrino

That was me; sorry, I didn't see that your solution is invalid.

@Mendeleev maybe should delete

totallyhuman

it is?

HyperNeutrino

yeah, you're keeping the wrong chars

No I meant I should delete my phone number from my website, not your message :P

totallyhuman

oh

><

easily fixed

HyperNeutrino

Well, I successfully removed it, but now you also can't figure out my email address >.<

oh wait caching

I removed my home phone because it's not actually mine, but I'm keeping my cell phone. Usually off anyway xD

Adám

9:12 PM

@HyperNeutrino Kind of, but for the wrong reason.

HyperNeutrino

please don't tell me it's this again

NO STAHP PLX

1+5=6 -> 1+(5=6) -> 1+0 -> 1 PLZ

TuxCopter

1 PLZ? It only shows 1

HyperNeutrino

kek

tfw you think someone has way higher rep than you but they don't rip

@totallyhuman nice, ununupvoted :P

anyway bye for now people :D ಠ/

Zwei

as some programming languages such as BLC operate on bits instead of bytes, is there any consensus as to handle answers with partial byte counts, i.e. 2.25?

HyperNeutrino

@Zwei Binary Lambda Calculus, 2.25 bytes. It's been done before

Zwei

9:18 PM

if not I'll write up a meta post

HyperNeutrino

Also welcome back to chat :P

And also your rep crossed out is still the same thing :P

Welp anyway I actually have to go now so bye :D o/

Zwei

yeah that was mine, I was asking because someone edited the count to 3

betseg

@HyperNeutrino can i call you

totallyhuman

ಠ_ಠ/

Zwei

yeah, I think I'll quickly write up a meta article on this

Wheat Wizard

9:28 PM

I think there is a met post already

Zwei

I can't find it

Wheat Wizard

2

Q: Sub-byte character encodings

What do people think about defining the encoding of a character in a given language as taking place in less than a byte? For example, take Brainfuck. Brainfuck has exactly 8 possibilities per character, (+, -, [, ], >, <, ., ,), so each character can be easily encoded into 3 bits. Given that, wo...

Zwei

No answers on that question, and I don't see a difinitive answers in the link through the duplicate

Wheat Wizard

thats true

but if you ask again it is likely to be closed as a dupe again

Zwei

yeah

Wheat Wizard

9:32 PM

perhaps you should vote to reopen

Zwei

I don't think I have the reopen vote rep yet

Wheat Wizard

Looks like you need 56 more rep

Zwei

TRiG's answer doesn't quite answer mine--yes, byte count is the standard criteria, but if a language operates on bits are non-integer byte scores allowed

DJMcMayhem

@WheatWizard At first I thought that was @nmp, and I was like ugh, not this again

Wheat Wizard

@DJMcMayhem Is there a definitive answer on this topic? I could not find one myself

DJMcMayhem

9:38 PM

Basically, as long as you can save a file with an actual size of N bytes on your hard drive, you can claim a score of N.

Wheat Wizard

Yeah but where is the meta?

Zwei

so if I wanted to claim a 2.25 byte score on a BLC answer, I would have to build a "BLC machine" that can take 2.25 byte programs with no padding as input?

New Main Posts

0

Q: Convert a Julian date to a Gregorian date

A Julian date is a positive integer that represents the number of days that have passed since the beginning of the current Julian period; in our case, that is January 1st, 4713 BC. Your task is to take an integer representing a Julian date and output or return a Gregorian date as a string of the...

code-golf date conversion

DJMcMayhem

@Zwei I think so.

Zwei

what about the -b flag on the BLC interpreter, where you can enter non-byte programs without padding using the 0 and 1 chars?

DJMcMayhem

9:40 PM

If you're really trying to push the rules, you could argue that you don't need an OS to support sub-byte encodings, cause you could feed it through a serial port, and send it bit by bit

@Zwei Unfortunately, in that case each '0' or '1' is a full byte

Zwei

ah

Wheat Wizard

@DJMcMayhem Is there a meta on this somewhere?

DJMcMayhem

I'm looking

Wheat Wizard

ok thanks

Zwei

it seems a bit arbitrary to require a bitwise by definition programming language to pad the answer to the nearest byte

DJMcMayhem

9:42 PM

Except that it's literally impossible to not pad them

Wheat Wizard

I think I might vote to reopen that question because I really don't see how its a dupe, at least of the question it is marked as.

DJMcMayhem

(when you're storing the file, that is)

It's sorta covered here, but this is more specific: codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/10187/31716

@WheatWizard Ah, found it:

1

Q: How to count bytes in 7 (and other languages that use fractional numbers of bytes)

(See also this question, which is similar, but talks about the situation where the language is normally stored on disk with one command per byte.) This question originally came up in connection with 7, but might be relevant to other languages. In 7, each command is only three bits long (it only...

discussion code-golf answers scoring

Wheat Wizard

Could you write a program to just read particular sections of the hard disk?

DJMcMayhem

Unless it was hooked up to a serial port

Zwei

what if I built a computer not oriented on bytes in logisim and called that the interpreter my answer runs on?

Uriel

9:46 PM

@Zwei then you can count with your zwytes.

DJMcMayhem

Zwytes

Wheat Wizard

How do computers know when one file starts and another begins?

Zwei

I'm clueless on this kinda thing but I think it's the eof control char

totallyhuman

How do magnets even work??

Wheat Wizard

@Zwei Isn't that an extra byte that has to be counted then?

totallyhuman

9:48 PM

Since we're questioning things :P

Jim

@DJMcMayhem Does that mean that languages like Jelly have an implementation where it is actually possible to save source files as specified by their encoding?

DJMcMayhem

@WheatWizard That is an excellent question that is way beyond my comprehension.

There are so many layers of abstraction it's ridiculous

Zwei

eof isn't included in character count here on ppcg because it's typically not counted as part of the file

DJMcMayhem

@Jim Absolutely!

@Zwei Eof isn't a character that is stored in the file.

Zwei

I'm confused with regards to low-level hard drive stuff so I'm probably spouting pure bs

all I know is that eof is a thing

DJMcMayhem

9:50 PM

Yeah, but isn't a specific byte stored in the file.

It's read by C when the file is finished reading.

Does that make sense?

Zwei

yeah

oh ok, I see

Jim

@isaacg Pyth question: is there an outer product command (given two columns A and B and a function f, generate the matrix C where C[i, j] = f(A[i], B[j]))?

DJMcMayhem

I don't know a lot of the details, but I know their can't be an actual 0x04 byte stored in the file because that would be a nightmare. Think of all the problems that C strings have.

Plus, the OS can tell the size of a file without reading it, and files can contain data after a 0x04

Anonymous

0x04 is EOT, not EOF. EOT is End of Transmission - it is sent at the end of some streams across a network or other external connection

Wheat Wizard

Also aren't all files timestamped? Doesn't that take up space too?

DJMcMayhem

9:53 PM

I don't know if a file is a timestamp, but it has timestamps in it's metadata.

Anonymous

0x04 is also sent in a terminal via ^D

Wheat Wizard

And thats not counted towards score?

Zwei

I think there's something like a partition table for files that keeps track of that stuff but, once again, I am very very clueless as to how low level hard drive stuff works and/or what the layers of abstraction do

I'm just happy that the layers of abstraction are there

DJMcMayhem

Amen

Anonymous

@WheatWizard Usually metadata isn't stored in the file, but in a special, separate part of the filesystem

Jim

9:54 PM

@Zwei It all depends on OSes (Linux, Windows, …), and particularly on the partition system (ext4, NTFS, …)

Zwei

ext4 here

Wheat Wizard

What if we made a language that is based only on the timestamp and not the contents of the file? How would we score that?

Zwei

and secondary windows drive is NTFS

Anonymous

@WheatWizard We'd trout-slap the person who made it

5

DJMcMayhem

@WheatWizard That would be such a nightmare to write, hahaha

8

A: How are the file metadata stored in Windows?

You've been taught that hard disks contain files, but that's not the entire truth. Actually, hard drives contain one very, very big number expressed by a lot of single bits. But this interpretation doesn't make any sense to you nor your computer, because processing single big numbers isn't very c...

Zwei

9:56 PM

there'd only be about 2147483647**2 programs which sounds like a lot but isn

Wheat Wizard

@Mego Like my 30000 byte mandatory command line flag idea.

DJMcMayhem

@Mego Here, this will get us started

Zwei

't much when you compare with unary

actually, maybe it is enough to make something

read last modified timestamp, and take the number as the number of 0s in a unary program, and some stuff will probably be within reach

Jim

@WheatWizard Lenguage

DJMcMayhem

@WheatWizard Your idea is hilarious because it's such a terrible idea, but I honestly can't think of any valid rule to disallow it, and since the file timestamp is really part of the file-system, it legitimately would be a 0-byte program, and I have no clue how you could possibly come up with a scoring system for it

totallyhuman

9:59 PM

Loophole time?

DJMcMayhem

And since IIRC, touch can set arbitrary timestamps, it's totally possible

Wheat Wizard

IMO we should just ban any language that only cares about file metadata

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem Since the timestamp is the "code", the timestamp's length in bytes would be the score

Wheat Wizard

@DJMcMayhem touch -A

DJMcMayhem

@Mego No, the code is the contents of the file, right?

Uriel

10:01 PM

@DJMcMayhem so what about programs that can't be stored within the current storage space on earth? like a 10^10000 lenguage program? should they be invalid because they can't be used?

DJMcMayhem

Partially sarcastic

Jim

I repeat myself, but a language for that timestamp thing already exists: esolangs.org/wiki/Lenguage

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem That's very clearly loophole abuse

Anonymous

@Uriel Sparse files solve that problem

Uriel

@Mego ?

Mendeleev

10:01 PM

How is posting a link to a giveaway "inappropriate content" and deserving of a suspension?

Wheat Wizard

@Jim That is not the case, lenguage has nothing to do with timestamps

Anonymous

@Mendeleev Spam, as defined by SE, is unsolicited commercial content

DJMcMayhem

@Mendeleev It is self-promotion, and completely inappropriate in here.

Mendeleev

@DJMcMayhem "Self-promotion"? It was completely unaffiliated with me, it was by Android Authority

Jim

@WheatWizard It has everything to do with timestamps, because it's just a number. As a timestamp.

Mendeleev

10:02 PM

I thought it would be a good thing to share

Zwei

would it be a loophole if I had a programming language read a program over serial and parse bit-by-bit to have my program be a partial byte?

Wheat Wizard

@Jim lenguage reads the file and takes its length, it does not care about the files' timestamp

Jim

@WheatWizard To make myself more clear, it could serve as an implementation of the timestamp thing

Phoenix

@Zwei That is valid, but no one's bothered to do it yet.

Zwei

nice

Jim

10:03 PM

@WheatWizard Just replace the file's length by the file's timestamp. Done

Anonymous

@Uriel A sparse file doesn't store the data. It instead stores metadata, and the filesystem uses that metadata to generate the data on the fly. For example, you could have a sparse file that says "1 quadrillion 0x00 bytes" (in whatever format the file system uses), and the file system could read that file and output 1 quadrillion 0x00 bytes in a stream.

Wheat Wizard

@Jim Ah I see. It probably would fail because most lenguage programs are massive, and there is a maximum on the timestamp size.

DJMcMayhem

@Mendeleev Then why would you hide it behind a sketchy shortened URL? That just screams spam.

Jim

@WheatWizard Yes, that's the biggest issue I see

Mendeleev

@DJMcMayhem I used the "share" button in the giveaway section, that's the link it gave me

Uriel

10:04 PM

@Mego what if my bf program is long enough so even storing this sparse file cannot be done? I can always pour in more bytes.

Zwei

how sketchy was the shortened url

Wheat Wizard

@Uriel There would almost certainly be a way to describe the file in an unambiguous way in less bytes. That's the whole concept behind Kolmogorov complexity.

Jim

@WheatWizard But unfortunately, that's gonna be the problem with any implementation of the timestamp thing

Anonymous

@Mendeleev The long and short of it is, you posted an unsolicited advertisement for commercial content. That's spam, and that's bad.

DJMcMayhem

10:06 PM

@Mendeleev Well, I'm sorry if it honestly wasn't self-promotion, but I'd recommend avoiding posting messages like [Some product!](<shortened URL>) ever. I wasn't around when you posted it, but I'd always flag that when I see it.

isaacg

@Jim No. I don't think Pyth has any matrix focused commands at all.

Mendeleev

@DJMcMayhem Right, thanks for the tip.

Jim

@isaacg Thanks anyway

DJMcMayhem

And conveniently, I can see deleted messages in here

Mendeleev

@Mego Wasn't meaning to be an advertisement. I would post this on Reddit and stuff, if I saw that I would enter the giveaway, not flag it.

Uriel

10:07 PM

@Mego kolmogorov complexity ends somewhere; even though almost all streams can be compressed, they can't be compressed forever

DJMcMayhem

@Zwei https://wn.nr/<6 letters>

Zwei

that's a weird shortener

Anonymous

@Mendeleev Well, it was, so keep that in mind and learn from the experience.

Mendeleev

@Zwei It's the link that was in the giveaway share section

@Mego OK, thanks

DJMcMayhem

Generally, I just assume that anything behind a URL shortener is something I don't want to see. It's worked pretty well for me so far. :)

Phoenix

10:08 PM

@DJMcMayhem What if I have a TIO link too big for a comment?

Zwei

with some of the more common url shorteners such as bit.ly, you can add a + to the end to see where it leads and some traffic statistics

DJMcMayhem

@Phoenix That's slightly different. Context helps too.

Mendeleev

@DJMcMayhem What if I'm using QR codes and I want to make them easy to scan (i.e. data as small as possible)

Wheat Wizard

@Phoenix Then your code hasn't been golfed enough and I don't want to see it :P

Zwei

what if it's a challenge with a large input?

I think I remember seeing a challenge that would be an ascii maze that you would have to golf pathfinding through

New Main Posts

10:18 PM

0

Q: List the numbers in OEIS that do not contain themselves

The OEIS is a database of integer sequences. Although it is pretty good, it has one critical flaw: every sequence must have an id integer. By a diagonalization argument, the OEIS will never be complete without dropping this requirement. Your job is to create the sequence demonstrating the contrad...

math sequence integer internet

Zwei

I wouldn't say it's a diagonalization argument so much as induction

the new sequence added wouldn't contain itself, so you can make another sequence that's the same but includes the id of the new sequence

wait, you run into the "does a set of all sets that do not contain themselves contain itself" paradox

Anonymous

@Zwei The Barber paradox :)

Wheat Wizard

Russell's paradox

Zwei

good to have a name to that

Anonymous

Does A053169 contain 53169?

Wheat Wizard

10:25 PM

chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/57160

@Mego It does not. It only has 81 entries

Zwei

A053169(n) is undefined for some n

where 0>n>inf

which is unusual for most OEIS entries

Wheat Wizard

Not really

ArtOfCode

@Zwei I think you meant <

Zwei

0>inf

Wheat Wizard

there are a good deal of finitely sized oeis sequences

Zwei

10:27 PM

yeah I think so too

n in [0,inf]

that's what I meant to express

Wheat Wizard

CMC: Calculate the sequence given by your PPCG id.

8

Zwei

but the fact that it's undefined at a single point while points greater than it are defined is possibly unique

brb

Wheat Wizard

(For example A056656 for me)

betseg

oeis.org/A056721 <-- "Numbers n such that 8*10^n-1 is prime." "Do[ If[ PrimeQ[ 7*10^n + (10^n-1)], Print[n]], {n, 0, 3000}]"

Okx

CMC: Get the memory of a number, i.e the amount of numbers less than it that are prime and are a substring of the original number

Adám

10:34 PM

@WheatWizard The signature-permutation of the Catalan automorphism which is derived from the sixteenth non-recursive Catalan automorphism with recursion schema ENIPS. Huh?

Wheat Wizard

@Adám This is harder for some users than others :P

musicman523

How do I remove every other letter from standard input in bash

(Trying to answer this bad boy)

Can you use sed to replace two of anything with the first thing? How do?

I got it, it was sed 's/\(.\)\(.\)/\1/g' for anyone interested

Comrade SparklePony

@Okx Test cases? What should an input of 22 return?

DJMcMayhem

10:50 PM

Does sed have anything like \zs in vim?

New Main Posts

0

Q: Line editor (more text here)

In the misty years of yore, when fanfold terminals walked the earth, there lived a strange creature. Oddly crippled and yet oddly powerful, the line editor teemed across the programming landscape in untold numbers; covering the earth as far as the eye could see. Now it is fallen on hard times. T...

code-golf

Downgoat

:O Idea: add if(var foo = expr) { A } else { B } to JS

basically if expr is non null, excute A with foo set to expr, otherwise B

ArtOfCode

@Downgoat already exists, just drop the var

pollutes global scope, but when did golfers care about that

Downgoat

@ArtOfCode wat no doesn't exist?

oh

I mean like with block scoping

if (let x = f)

Destructible Lemon

hey anyone want to join my github compiler chain project?

Downgoat

11:00 PM

@DestructibleLemon what is compiler chain do

ArtOfCode

@Downgoat yeah, that doesn't exist, it only works at global scope.

Destructible Lemon

well, you write a compiler for a new language to the language the compiler is written in

Downgoat

@ArtOfCode assignment =/= declaration

unless you're a C++ person

Uriel

@WheatWizard "Numbers such that 79 'Reverse and Add' steps are needed to reach a palindrome" 🤔

ArtOfCode

var gets you "unexpected token var", and let gets you "unexpected identifier"

Destructible Lemon

11:00 PM

then someone else does the same thing writing the compiler in the new language

and then a bunch more, and you have a bunch of languages being compiled across and stuff

ArtOfCode

@Downgoat point; predeclaring your variable makes it work with block scope.

musicman523

@Downgoat I'm not a Javascript programmer but could you do something like this?

Obviously your way is more beautiful

ArtOfCode

In your console: var foo; if (foo = null) { console.log('true') } else { console.log('false') } logs false

substitute null for any non-null expression to get true logged

Downgoat

@musicman523 I'm saying you can't do it, I am just saying if idea should be propose to ecma-262

musicman523

@ArtOfCode I think the main point of his idea was that foo only exists within the scope of the if statement

ArtOfCode

11:03 PM

I don't see the utility of that, but yeah

musicman523

@Downgoat Personally I think it's hard to read but that's my personal preference

Downgoat

it makes sense given for (let i = 0;;) is a thing and so is for (let x in f) { A }

musicman523

Golfers rarely see the utility of silly things like scoping

Downgoat

@ArtOfCode 99% syntactic sugar 1% utility

Phoenix

@ArtOfCode = should be ==

Downgoat

11:05 PM

@totallyhuman ono why did u delete your answer to rubik cube challenge?

Phoenix

Or === if this is JS

Downgoat

this is JS

I think C# has this too

ArtOfCode

@Phoenix no, read up.

Destructible Lemon

@Phoenix that is intentional

ninja'd

Github Compiler Chain

github.com/Compiler-Chain

join pls

Zwei

would an array of 6 booleans as a program count as a 0.75 byte program?

ETHproductions

11:10 PM

@WheatWizard Done a while ago

totallyhuman

@Downgoat downvotes ;-;

Downgoat

@totallyhuman will upgoat if undelete :)

ETHproductions

@Zwei If there's an interpreter which can read exactly 0.75 bytes and execute the program properly, then yes

Downgoat

Kernel probably won't let you read 0.75 bytes though

ETHproductions

Yeah

Downgoat

11:12 PM

:D I made FIX-IT for VSL

example FIX-IT:

$ vsl test.vsl -i

Scope Resolution Error: unknown variable `downgoat` at `test.vsl:1:11`

    print(1 + downgoat)
              ^^^^^^^^

    FIX-IT:
        1. Similar named variable(s) were found:
           - downgaot
           - dwongaot

    What would you like to do?
        [1]. Replace the variable name
        [2]. Exit
    Your selection:

ETHproductions

Hey, that's really cool :D

Downgoat

:D

musicman523

Okay i have a weird question

Is there any way to print in BrainFlak only using []<>

Downgoat

what's nice is you don't have to go back into the file to fix you can just keep press compiler button and all program is fix :D

musicman523

Or must you use ()

ETHproductions

11:14 PM

@musicman523 I think printing is implicit at the end of the program, but idk if you can push to the stack without (...)

musicman523

@ETHproductions Makes sense, thank you!

Zwei

the current policy with regards to BLC is to round up, but given that there's no theoretical reason that the language needs to be bounded to bytes, it feels off

if the program can be completely expressed as 01000110 10000110 10, and a theoretical "BLC machine" could read and understand this perfectly, the requirement to add 6 null bytes seems arbitrary

bits*

New Sandboxed Posts

11:32 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Just One More Time code-golf Challenge Write a program or function that will run without error once, but will crash when run for the second time. If you are writing a function, you may assume the function will be run twice within the same interpreter session or program. If you are writing a p...

ATaco

I'd like to see a list of languages' weight classes.

Zwei

so like

java, c# low tier, cjam mid tier, jelly and 05AB1E top tier?

ATaco

Not necessarily, but grouping languages into groups in which they are roughly equally competitive given the same challenges.

Zwei

ah

ATaco

V/Charcoal may not be as powerful as Jelly in mathematical challenges, but they run circles around it in Ascii Kolmov challenges.

Zwei

11:41 PM

more powerful as in V does

V doesn't even number

well, there is 0x01 to increment and something else to decrement but that's it

ATaco

Jelly > V/Charcoal in Math challenges, unsurprisingly, and V/Charcoal > Jelly in Kolmov challenges, usually.

Adám

@ATaco Ah, you mean given a certain type of languages, you consult the list to find the languages that are most likely to perform well on that type of challenge?

@ATaco Usually. It will be really hard to classify since some language have special built-ins that happen to make them competitive in specific challenges of a type they usually are less good at.

Downgoat

@ATaco charcaol is getting mathematica

Uriel

@Adám well, usually the most "liked" solutions are the ones that are not in the languages that are built for the challange, e.g. floating point solutions in languages without floats, midi submisiions in turing machines, nullary submissions by non-time-travelers

ATaco

Solutions that have a fair amount of effort put in usually outperform the "Do X" builtin, in regards to votes.

Uriel

11:55 PM

@ATaco not really. I've seen enough 3 byters of nonspecial builtin defeating very complex answers enough times

it's more about interest/uniqueness, rather than effort put in

ATaco

Complex != Effort put in

Uriel

@ATaco by complex I mean complex to produce (formulating, calculating, planning)

@ATaco and personally, most of my top-voted posts were just challenge themed/ tricky, not really much effort

Github Compiler Chain

Transcript for