The Nineteenth Byte

2:00 AM

@Downgoat That's the general meaning of variance, e.g. "How spread out stuff is". It's not the same thing as the specific statistical measure called variance.

Phoenix

Graduation requirement is 3 SS credits. It's a terrible idea unless you want to take Civics in your free time.

Downgoat

our school offers a normal world history so you don't have to torture yourself with the nightmare I've heared ap euro us

Phoenix

My school offers a special course that combines APUSH and Civics into one period, creating the most painful class in ever.

APUSH is bad enough

Downgoat

D: oh my

Phoenix

Not looking forward to next year. Although, Environmental Engineering & Sustainable Design and Advanced Computer Science seem fun.

PhiNotPi

2:03 AM

I'm here because someone said "AP"

Phoenix

How many are you taking?

Downgoat

@Phoenix how many what?

Phoenix

APs

PhiNotPi

@Phoenix I took a lot in high school (am in college now, and very thankful I did so many AP things)

Downgoat

@Phoenix AP Euro, and AP Stats, not sure what else I could take

Phoenix

2:05 AM

AP Environmental Science/Biology maybe?

APES is a really fun course, although you have to take Bio at some point.

PhiNotPi

Full list in order: human geo, stats, bio, english lang, calc bc, chem, physics c, compsci a

Downgoat

@Phoenix I did take Bio this year but admin at school said all advanced science classes are full and juniors get priority

I've already taken bio this year though

Phoenix

I have: CS, Stats, Bio this year, and am planning on taking Calc ab/bc, lang+composition, english lit, Chem, Physics, USH, WorldH.

user165474

I've heard a lot of bad things about CompSci Intro at my high school :I

Phoenix

Intro CompSci is a terrible course

user165474

2:09 AM

@Phoenix you don't need to golf the course names :I

Phoenix

Don't take it

user165474

@Phoenix Pretty much every person I've talked to has urged me to avoid ICS :P

Downgoat

huh. Apparently I was able to skip all CS prereqs and just go to AP CS A:P

PhiNotPi

Can confirm: AP CompSci sucks

Phoenix

APCS is a bit better

At least there you don't spend a semester on Scratch

Any CS course past APCSA tends to actually be good tho.

user165474

2:10 AM

Scratch???

user165474

What???

Phoenix

May be different at your school, but regardless will be terrible.

PhiNotPi

That's pretty bad.

user165474

Our ICS course at least uses Turing

Phoenix

It has to be more intro than APCS, and APCS is pretty intro.

user165474

2:11 AM

But Scratch...

Phoenix

They can't teach Java in IntroCS, because then people will already know everything they need for APCS.

PhiNotPi

Also, I took APCS through my state's virtual school with one of my friends. I guess it saved me 1 semester of compsci in college but that was really bad way to do an AP course.

Phoenix

How strict are they about prereqs in college? In high school they'll let you skip anything if you super promise you'll study it over the summer.

user165474

I was hoping at least Python but that seems too un-intro I guess.

user165474

I know!

user165474

2:13 AM

They should teach Jelly! Then everyone's brains will die! :D

PhiNotPi

@Phoenix depends a lot on the department and class

Phoenix

Is APCS the equivalent of CompSci 101

PhiNotPi

The vast majority of the time it's a total no-go, but I did manage to skip psych 101 straight into intro to neuroscience

user165474

Psych is prerequisite for neuroscience?

user165474

also are you guys talking about post-second, high school, or both

Phoenix

2:15 AM

@HyperNeutrino Why wouldn't it be?

user165474

I suppose that makes sense.

Phoenix

It just a different amount of layers of abstraction.

user165474

I see.

Phoenix

Which I suppose makes Phys equivalent to everything but still.

PhiNotPi

@Phoenix depends on your university's numbering system, but yes, first semester of freshman year

(my university gave it some other 100-level number)

Phoenix

2:18 AM

I have a friend who took CompSci 101 and says it's the most boring class ever.

Which makes sense having taken APCS this year.

user165474

They should do code-golf in CS courses.

Phoenix

Didn't someone discover some super-useful algorithm in the name of fastest-code once?

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino pls no

user165474

lel

ASCII-only

@Phoenix was the super useful algorithm test-code

PhiNotPi

2:21 AM

I will say that what the public thinks is psychology (Jung, Freud, etc.) isn't really what most psychology is today. If you make a claim about behavior, you typically want to be able to back it some with some actual physiology, otherwise it's mostly speculation.

Downgoat

@Phoenix wait really, they let you do that

does this mean I can skip pre-calc :O

user165474

The only thing I ever managed to skip was Math 9 lol

Phoenix

@Downgoat Talk to one of the AP Calc teachers, they might give you a test to prove that you know what you're doing. (That's how it works at my school)

PhiNotPi

@Phoenix Something that I noticed that was kinda weird with college CS classes is how... poorly a lot of people do in the class. I kinda want to say that's because I had a lot of programming experience going into it... but when me and my nerdy friend group all make high As while barely trying and the class average is low 70s, I feel like something is actually broken in the compsci education program.

Phoenix

I think it's the difference between people who are interested in CS and those who have to take it for a requirement.

APCS is the same way, it's a required course at our school.

user165474

2:25 AM

This question got protected again yesterday by Community. Stupid Community. :I

Phoenix

Well not really required, you can substitute in AP Stats, but no one does that.

Downgoat

@Phoenix huh that's nice

we actually have to take the course

Dennis

@HyperNeutrino On a challenge like HW, it's an uphill battle. The counters do not reset when it gets unprotected, so every time an answer is deleted, it will get protected again.

Downgoat

and they won't even guarantee they'll let us get into the course

user165474

@Dennis That's really annoying :I Can we protect answer from being protected? :P

PhiNotPi

2:27 AM

But it's the same thing even with the CSCE 350 class I took, I went out to watch a movie the night before the exam and made a 100 on it. It's a 300-level class and therefore not supposed to be that easy, and everyone in there is either majoring or minoring (me) in CS.

Phoenix

Oh, what's your Major, I'm curious now.

user165474

Also I feel like there should be a thing where if a mod unprotects it it will stay unprotected by Community. feature-request

PhiNotPi

Biomedical engineering, minoring in cs and neuroscience

Phoenix

Cool. We have a biomed class at our school in 12th grade

Downgoat

@Phoenix does your school not have a biomed pathway? D:

O_O there is a power-walking course at my school

user165474

2:29 AM

lol we don't even have biomed we just have APBio, APChem, APPhys

Phoenix

We have no P.E.

user165474

@Downgoat o.o WAT

user165474

@Phoenix actually? isn't that a grade 9 requirement though?

user165474

actually

user165474

depends where you live

PhiNotPi

2:30 AM

@Downgoat wait until you see all the physical education courses offered at college

Downgoat

user165474

Survey: What is your current education level?

user165474

@Downgoat how is that a thing. does that give credits?

Downgoat

@HyperNeutrino yup, as many credits as any other PE course

Phoenix

@Downgoat We don't have an explicit pathway, but there's AP Bio, APES, Psych, and Biomed is a two-period block.

PhiNotPi

2:31 AM

In a lot of places a PE course is required (it was for my high school)

Phoenix

@HyperNeutrino It is but you can take a test instead.

Downgoat

@Phoenix like a written test or like a physical test

Phoenix

Like a written test

feersum

Do you pass as long as you have a pulse?

Phoenix

It's actually kinda hard. You need to know about how different muscles work and stuff.

feersum

2:33 AM

Well that's not even physical.

At least a pulse is.

Downgoat

Question what does:

> A grade of “B”

mean

Either it is an A grade or a B grade

Phoenix

It means you got a B.

ASCII-only

@Downgoat B grade

Downgoat

O_o

Phoenix

A being the article of the English language in this context.

> Biomedical Engineering
The Biomedical Engineering Lab offers opportunities for students to engage in systems biology problem
solving. This STEM lab addresses two of the Grand Challenges of Engineering, including Advancing
Health Informatics and Engineering Better Medicines. In Advancing Health Informatics, students use the
knowledge gained in Human Anatomy and Physiology and Biology to research and communicate medical
information to improve the quality and efficiency of healthcare. In Engineering Better Medicines,

ASCII-only

2:34 AM

@Downgoat Basically let yourGrade: grade = .B in VSL

Phoenix

Why .B

Downgoat

D: shouldn't grade be PascalCase?

Phoenix

Wait ic

Downgoat

also enum value are camel case no?

ASCII-only

@Phoenix :O look at all these capital letters this must be really important

@Downgoat hmm idk

feersum

2:36 AM

-1 not enough Grand Challenges.

Downgoat

do note it is camel case in libcurl: github.com/vsl-lang/VSL/blob/master/libraries/libcurl/…

Phoenix

@feersum There are two more in Advanced Physics & Global Engineering

feersum

So it has 4?

Downgoat

@ASCII-only do we want to have explicit namespaces

imo no

Phoenix

Actually 3:

> Advanced Physics & Global Engineering
The senior level Advanced Physics/Global Engineering Lab integrates AP Physics C Mechanics and
Electromagnetism, Advanced Physics/Engineering Lab, and English Language Arts 12. This lab is an indepth
investigation into the physical universe. It includes extensive mathematical modeling of physical
phenomena and calculus-based problem solving. Mind expanding theoretical material will be balanced
with hands-on lab investigations and projects. This class is designed to prepare students for future

user165474

2:38 AM

I like how we're talking about random educational things but we still can't stay away from code because yeknow, this is ppcg :P

Phoenix

@Downgoat imo yes

Downgoat

ono why?

imo it goes against the modularity we are trying to promote in VSL

also goes against OO-ideals

ASCII-only

@Downgoat optional imo

PhiNotPi

My high school had some kind of health profession pathway (focused more on the more clinical side of medicine)

Downgoat

@ASCII-only how?

Phoenix

2:39 AM

A) It's like a class with implicit private constructor, which is useful, B) using namespace foo to bring everything in a namespace into the scope is neat.

Downgoat

I don't want to have like C++ namespace Goat { ... }

ASCII-only

@Downgoat why not

Phoenix

C++ namespace is good.

Downgoat

I was thinking we'd use import HTTP or import static HTTP or something to import on HTTP object

@ASCII-only because ugly and promotes bad OO

ASCII-only

@Downgoat are you saying C# and C++ are bad oo

PhiNotPi

2:40 AM

My code has a bug in it, and by "in it" I mean crawling on the screen in front of it.

Downgoat

@ASCII-only yeah

user165474

o.o

Phoenix

._.

How does that make sense

ASCII-only

@Downgoat okay then no explicit namespace

PhiNotPi

You haven't seen bad oo until you've seen Perl oo

Downgoat

2:41 AM

btw how do we want to do modules

Dennis

Downgoat

imo you should be able to do like vsl src/ and will execute entire directory and use entry point (whatever we define entry point as)

ASCII-only

@PhiNotPi The first computer bug was a moth in one of ENIAC's vacuum tubes IIRC (which is where the term bug got its name)

Mistah Figgins

is that bug spray?

ASCII-only

@Downgoat ok

Phoenix

2:42 AM

@Downgoat Rip java's package system.

Mistah Figgins

@ASCII-only was about to say this, except more vague

Downgoat

java package system is yucky

ASCII-only

@Downgoat pls help convert charcoal grammar ty

Phoenix

@ASCII-only Actually it was in old telephone systems.

@Downgoat No it isn't.

Downgoat

pls tell that to every java user who doesn't use fancy IDE which automatically adds the 38 import statements for them

we don't want VSL to need giant big IDE

ASCII-only

2:43 AM

nvm it wasn't ENIAC, it was Harvard's Mark II

user165474

If only import *.*.*.*; worked

Downgoat

@ASCII-only idea: be able to do thing like: find . -name "*.png" | vsl -e "{ fs.rename($0, "goat@0") }" which will preend goat to each line of stdin

Phoenix

Java package system with one modification: import pkg.** recursively imports everything in pkg

ATaco

I've started work on that when language.

Feel free to check it out

ASCII-only

@Downgoat $0 to get full regex match though (or $& if you want to do js way)

Phoenix

2:45 AM

import ** makes you a terrible human being by causing the compiler to search your entire disk for .vsl files.

Downgoat

@ASCII-only LLVM has support for modules

we can use LLVM module system

@ASCII-only I thought "foo@0" is like "foo" + $0

user165474

I have a language called PostfixGolf which operates in some way almost remotely related to Jelly. Essentially there's a flow of arguments and then atoms (stole the name from Jelly) can take a few arguments and return another few arguments (nilads behave differently), and quicks which take a link and make another atom out of it (maybe with different arity) (stole all these names from Jelly). Any ideas for a name?

Phoenix

Do you guys have a splat operator yet?

ASCII-only

@Downgoat as in like js ${asdf}?

user165474

anyway be right back in about 10 minutes

ASCII-only

2:47 AM

@Phoenix yeah, prefix *

Phoenix

Cool.

Downgoat

@ASCII-only 0 idea what u mean

Phoenix

codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/122658/60042 now has a super-awesome gif

ASCII-only

@Downgoat sorry did a brain fart

Phoenix

The thing with namespaces is that multiple files can add to a single namespace, the way C libraries add to std. Which I think it convenient.

Downgoat

2:50 AM

@ASCII-only yeah i got from hackmd

ASCII-only

@Downgoat hmm i don't think we had that in @ for special variable in hackmd but yes good idea

Downgoat

Question: why is the graph of x=y^2 and y=sqrt(x) different?

Dennis

Because the square root is only a lateral inverse of the square function.

ASCII-only

@Downgoat because sqrt of negative is imaginary

@Downgoat btw pls help

Downgoat

well square root can be negative right?

so I guess it would be the same

@ASCII-only halo wat need halp with

ASCII-only

2:53 AM

@Downgoat like what is sqrt(-9)

Downgoat

@ASCII-only 9i

ASCII-only

@Downgoat charcoal nearley grammar

ATaco

3i

ASCII-only

@Downgoat you mean 3i

PhiNotPi

multi-branched function... the principle branch is always positive, even though negative solutions exist

Downgoat

2:54 AM

@ASCII-only wait what

shit yes

ASCII-only

but 3i is not real number therefore not anywhere on y axis therefore not graphed

Phoenix

@Downgoat Because a function that you plot can only have return one value for each input. If you're plotting y based on x, you can't have two points on the same vertical, and if you're plotting x based on y, you can't have two points on the same horizontal.

PhiNotPi

one could define an alternative sqrt() that outputs negative numbers

ASCII-only

@Downgoat pls i'm on weird computer the keys are like super hard to press help

ATaco

cbrt() outputs negative numbers.

Phoenix

2:55 AM

Because you can cube root negative numbers.

Downgoat

@Phoenix Does ±x count as two numbers?

Phoenix

Sure

Downgoat

@ASCII-only ok pls provide c9 link will help stat

Phoenix

I suppose the specifics depend on your plotting tool.

ATaco

Infact, a^b works for all numbers where b%2==1

ASCII-only

2:56 AM

@Downgoat ide.c9.io/somebody1234/charcoal

Phoenix

@ATaco s/nf/n f/

PhiNotPi

Help I'm being forced to take an online ethics course before doing research on human subjects. :/

Challenger5

Do you have a link to the course?

Downgoat

@PhiNotPi I think you have to do that everywhere

PhiNotPi

@Challenger5 (somewhat joking because yeah I get it's actually important) but link: about.citiprogram.org/en/homepage

Downgoat

2:58 AM

>:( you should need to take one with goats too though

PhiNotPi

I'm just complaining because the research starts next week and they just sent instructions about how to do it

ASCII-only

@PhiNotPi s/human subjects/minions/

user165474

s/human subjects/tributes

PhiNotPi

~~subjects~~ citizens (edit: link to reference)

Dennis

@Downgoat While 2 and -2 are both square roots of 4, √ refers to the principal square root, which is non-negative.

ATaco

3:02 AM

s/human subjects/sacrifices

user165474

s/human subjects/victims

ASCII-only

@Downgoat you like disappeared from c9

Downgoat

sorry finals week and cramming for geo quiz

we have to know like 80% of worlds countries

user165474

o.o

Downgoat

animaniacs song not helping

Destructible Lemon

3:03 AM

s/human subjects/people I don't like/

ASCII-only

@Downgoat oh ok

Phoenix

@Dennis the function sqrt was mentioned, not √.

Downgoat

@Dennis ah, ok, did not know that, thanks

I guess that's why quadratic formula explicitly denotes plus/minus

Dennis

Precisely.

Destructible Lemon

@Dennis I think you mean square roots of 4, not -4

user165474

3:04 AM

Survey: Which genre of music occupies the most space in your music playlist (if you have one) by song count

Dennis

@DestructibleLemon I do indeed.

Phoenix

I wish Mathematica had a sensible use for the +- operator. AFAIK it's just a generic assignable operator.

Destructible Lemon

@HyperNeutrino soundtrack music

ATaco

@HyperNeutrino Electronic.

Dennis

@Phoenix Please enlighten me in what ways these are different.

user165474

3:05 AM

And also how many songs

Destructible Lemon

except that I don't have a music playlist, but same thing I guess

Phoenix

@Dennis It's called sqrt and not prsqrt

user165474

lol mine is 50% k pop and I don't even like k pop that much

Phoenix

@HyperNeutrino Electronic, of the MonsterCat variety, at 100% after rounding.

ASCII-only

@Phoenix Yes? But normally square root refers to principal square root

user165474

3:06 AM

@Phoenix how did you round

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino Down to nearest 100% :P

Dennis

@Phoenix Functions, both in the mathematical and the programming sense, can only have one return value. If not the principal one, which one would you choose?

Riker

@quartata @Doorknob either of you ever played a barbarian past the quest in nethack? I just beat the quest, not sure how to proceed

user165474

...how

user165474

oh

Riker

3:06 AM

other than finding the castle and then surviving gehennom, I'm not sure what to do

Phoenix

@HyperNeutrino Nearest percent

:P

user165474

mine used to be 0% k pop and then i showed one of my friends how to bluetooth direct file share and now it's 6/12 k pop rip

user165474

lol :P

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino Not actually, I'm assuming he has >=199 monstercat electronic, >=1 other

user165474

okay xD

Destructible Lemon

3:07 AM

down to nearest 100%?

user165474

Hey someone actually commented on my question after downvoting it

Destructible Lemon

it's a miracle

user165474

CMC: Let H, G be groups such that H <= G. Prove or disprove that if H is finite then G must also be finite.

Phoenix

I'm reasonably confident I accidentally downloaded a ~~few~~ lot of songs twice, so it might be a bit less than 100% if you only count uniques.

user165474

A <= B means that A is a subgroup of B when it comes to group notation, btw

user165474

3:10 AM

Ah okay

ATaco

But where group H contains any real number, and group G is R, then H <= G, H is finite, and G is not.

Destructible Lemon

@HyperNeutrino h = [1,2], g = all integers

user165474

Under what operator?

Destructible Lemon

g is infinite, h is finite. this is a disproval of "if H is finite then G must also be finite"

ez

user165474

But what's the operator?

Destructible Lemon

3:13 AM

unless I misunderstand what group is

Phoenix

You do

user165474

You probably do.

Destructible Lemon

:P

ATaco

Where H contains finite real numbers, and G is R, then H <= G, G is infinite, H is not.

Phoenix

They're a kind of special set.

Destructible Lemon

3:13 AM

please enlighten me

@ATaco thats basically my answer!!!11!!

R is fancy letter for "all integers" right?

Phoenix

There's a binary operator acting on the set, and it must be assosiative, have an identity, and an inverse for each operation.

user165474

wrong

ATaco

All real numbers.

Destructible Lemon

still same thing

user165474

Z is integers, Q is rationals, R is reals, C is complex

ATaco

3:14 AM

I said it first...

Phoenix

E.g. all integers and multiplication is a group, but all integers and division is not since 0 doesn't have an inverse

And is also not assosiative

Actualy I don't remember if it's commutativity or associativity.

@Phoenix is wrong ignore it

user165474

associativity

user165474

commutativity is for abelian groups

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon real numbers (any number without i, j and k)

user165474

A group is defined by a set S and an operator x such that S is a subset of the domain of x. Then, the following 4 axioms must hold: it is closed, the operator is associative, there exists an identity, and every element has an inverse

Phoenix

3:17 AM

:37634961 Identity is e.g. 0 for addition and 1 for multiplication. Associativity you learned in elementary school. Inverse is means that for e.g. multiplication if you multiply A by B, there always exists a C where A*B*C = A

Destructible Lemon

all non-negative integers and addition form a group?

Phoenix

No.

No inverse

3+6 is 9, how to get 3 back?

You don't have -6

Destructible Lemon

damn, the first line of wikipedia is inaccurate

Phoenix

But addition over the integers is a group.

Destructible Lemon

but 0+ 0 is 0 or something

Phoenix

3:18 AM

That's identity.

Destructible Lemon

that first line of wikipedia sux

Phoenix

Multiplication over the non-zero rationals is a group.

Destructible Lemon

ehh I don't care anymore

ATaco

All Integers and XOR are a group.

Destructible Lemon

seeya

Phoenix

3:18 AM

edit ninja'd

Destructible Lemon

until you guys stop talking about groups

user165474

:I

user165474

see what I did there

user165474

Let's make a new group chat

Phoenix

@HyperNeutrino There's an Axiomatic Set Theory chat

Which is almost the same thing

user165474

3:19 AM

ehh

Phoenix

Who shaves the barber?

Axiomatic set theory

feersum

That's not similar to group theory at all.

user165474

frozen

user165474

$Mathematics$ Group Chat

Downgoat

@Phoenix who does shave the barber?

is it one of their co-workers?

Destructible Lemon

3:21 AM

The barbers paradox is not a paradox

it just makes the barber a dirty lier

user165474

lol

Dennis

@DestructibleLemon Where does he lie?

Destructible Lemon

aw are we going to get into a spelling argument

Downgoat

Phoenix

@Downgoat What test is that?

Downgoat

3:29 AM

BYU online math course

Dennis

But I am tired and I do want a sandwich.

PhiNotPi

Is "your program must terminate" a reasonable restriction to add? I kinda assumed that was the default but someone is asking me about it for my ;# challenge.

ATaco

I think it's a default loophole.

Dennis

It is the default.

Not a loophole though.

ATaco

Especially in that particular answer's case, where it provides infinite output...

Dennis

3:31 AM

20

A: Do programs have to terminate?

Submissions should always terminate by default Personally, I think this is just the neater option, simple as that. If we allow non-terminating submissions, then it'll just feel like a "hidden rule" to new users.

ais523

3:52 AM

@Downgoat the traditional solution to the paradox is that the barber is a woman (the way the statements are traditionally worded, they only apply to men)

Dennis

That's more or less how some Set Theories solve the problem. The class of all sets that do not belong to themselves is a proper class.

Destructible Lemon

I prefer the solution that the barber exaggerates

ATaco

Stares at code angrily

Who shaves the barber?

Group Chat

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ Group Chat