The Nineteenth Byte

Arjun

04:00

@DestructibleLemon I am "he".

Destructible Lemon

?

ATaco

@Arjun Yep, But I can't find the proof. For CSS3, Not sure about 1 and 2.

Destructible Lemon

do you object to my use of "they" as the gender neutral third person pronoun?

ATaco

I usually use They/Them unless they tell me otherwise.

Destructible Lemon

(seriously though, people complain about english spelling rules and inconsistencies, but we don't even have a canonical gender neutral third person pronoun)

it's insane

ATaco

04:02

They/Them is a canonical gender neutral third person pronoun.

Destructible Lemon

I don't know about that

ATaco

There is a child. They are playing with their toys. Good for them.

Destructible Lemon

there are multiple people who would object to that use of they

they complain that it is a plural, but "you" is used as a plural every single time even when it is one person

ATaco

Those people are wrong.

(Don't shoot me, I'm joking)

Destructible Lemon

there is a historical basis for both traditional choices of gender neutral third person pronoun (he and they).

Arjun

04:05

@DestructibleLemon Nah, I wasn't objecting. I was just telling you that I am male, so that you can save two bytes when you refer to me the next time.

ATaco

In German, der is the Masculine The, Used for words like der Mann and der Buch, However, it's rarely but occasionally used gender neutrally, like der Madchen (The Girl)

However, German also has das, which is more canonically gender neutral.

Arjun

@ATaco That means we can implement Fibonacci series in CSS too ?!

ATaco

Theoretically, yes.

Easily..? Not so much.

Destructible Lemon

ok there is a pun coming

guess what it is

Arjun

@ATaco I too think that only CSS3 TS as it adds the calc() function to the spec.

@DestructibleLemon Silver Unicorn?

Destructible Lemon

04:09

no

Arjun

My avatar

Destructible Lemon

should I just tell you?

ATaco

Something about Gray and Arjun..?

Arjun

My androidified self.

Destructible Lemon

nope to both

the pun is derived from a latin word, which a derived form of is used in some english contexts

Arjun

04:10

Then it must be gray and gay Alan Turing

Destructible Lemon

I don't see the connection

Arjun

g(r)ay Alan Turing

@DestructibleLemon Alan Turing was gay.

Destructible Lemon

yeah ok I know that already but where is the gay part from the image and or the alan turing part

Downgoat

@Arjun I mean not really, but anyone can stretch the rules enough to say so

Arjun

@Downgoat Sorry?

Destructible Lemon

04:12

ok should I just tell you what the pun is

ATaco

Please.

Free me from this pain.

Destructible Lemon

(also I kind of expect you to go back and star it the same as if I just posted it up front)

Arjunt

Argent (disambiguation)

Argent is the heraldic tincture of silver. Argent may also refer to: == Entertainment == Argent (band), a 1960s-1970s British rock band Argent (album), a 1970 album by the band Rod Argent (born 1945), keyboardist and founding member of The Zombies and Argent Argent (comics), a DC Comics fictional superheroine Argent (TV channel), a Canadian French-language cable channel == Business == Argent Corporation, a defunct hotel/casino company in Las Vegas, Nevada, U.S. Argent Ventures, a privately held real estate company based in New York City Argent Mortgage, a unit of the defunct American c...

ATaco

Yep, that's too much effort for a pun.

Arjun

@Downgoat Didn't catch it? What do you mean?

Downgoat

@Arjun CSS is not turing complete, but people can bend what the definition of "turing complete" and with enough abuse you can theoretically say CSS is turing complete

ATaco

04:14

That's true of all Turing complete languages.

Phoenix

nooooooooo
stahp
no moar TC debates

ATaco

I've yet to see one with infinite memory.

Downgoat

@ATaco infinite memory refers to a non-bounded tape which occurs in basically all contexts

ATaco

@Downgoat That's an assumption, No-where in the definition does it refer to an upper limit on size being acceptable.

Infact, the definition does state that the universe itself should be processable on a TC machine.

Destructible Lemon

@ATaco I disagree

ATaco

04:16

That's fine.

Destructible Lemon

Fun fact: Silver is the only element that has had a country named after it

Arjun

Well, I guess, in theory, every language that is said to be TC is indeed TC as none of the TC lang defines a limit on variables.

Destructible Lemon

(according to a book I read anyway)

Arjun

Or stack

ATaco

Nah, Gold did too.

Downgoat

04:16

@ATaco non-bounded tape is not assumption

ATaco

"Australia"

Downgoat

the latter part is

I do not have a source for that

Destructible Lemon

@ATaco Australia is named after the fact that it is south

TBH kind of a boring name

ATaco

As an Australian I can confirm this country is gold.

Downgoat

however JS for example is TC given it is run on an appropriate context

Destructible Lemon

04:17

but at least two thirds of the name isn't something that like 90% of countries have

Arjun

I am sure that Argentina is named after Silver.

ATaco

Many languages are theoretically TC when run on the correct context.

Destructible Lemon

@Arjun yes. that is the one named after silver

Downgoat

:O Argent is silver in like portogese or latin or something right

Arjun

Spanish, I guess

Downgoat

04:18

Latin root

Arjun

As people from Argentina are Spanish, basically

aren't they?

Downgoat

comes from old french

Arjun

:0)

Destructible Lemon

@Downgoat argentum is latin

Phoenix

Silver in spanish is 'Plata'

Destructible Lemon

04:20

that sounds more like the name for platinum

Phoenix

That's 'platino'

Destructible Lemon

in fact platinum is derived from spanish word for silver

@Phoenix "platina"?

Phoenix

maybe

Arjun

What does FWIW mean?

Destructible Lemon

> for what it's worth

Arjun

04:23

Riddle: A car that can never be driven?

Nobody?

Should I reveal it then?

Hmm?

Downgoat

wait yes, CSS is not turing complete even if you bend the rules

@Arjun bike

Arjun

Nope

Kritixi Lithos

@Downgoat That wouldn't make sense for a human... but for a goat it does

Arjun

Answer in 5:

4

3

2

1

It's a sCar!

Phoenix

I was thinking Lisp things

Arjun

04:30

Another one: A room that resembles a Turing Machine?

Downgoat

@KritixiLithos i mean it is 50% right

Arjun

Answer in 5:

4

3

2

1

It's a ChatRoom!

@Downgoat Why isn't it Turing Complete?

ATaco

@Downgoat CSS3 can implement Rule110, Which is TC.

Arjun

Yup.

Downgoat

@ATaco no it can't

ATaco

04:35

Of course, HTML was there too.

But claiming that it can't do it because HTML isn't there is just, Petty.

Downgoat

@Arjun because by definition it should be able to compute any function. It lacks the ability to maintain state ie a tape

but that is not it

ATaco

@Downgoat my-codeworks.com/blog/2015/css3-proven-to-be-turing-complete

Arjun

@Downgoat But CSS has var()!

ATaco

@Downgoat complex-systems.com/pdf/15-1-1.pdf

Downgoat

@ATaco oh come on it's not even like the HTML is boilerplate CSS simply determines the following location, it still isn't performing comoutation

ATaco

04:38

Determining the following language is the difference between it being TC and not.

Without it, HTML cannot be TC.

A + B = TC

Phoenix

HTML is a superset of JS.

ATaco

HTML is just a subset of XML.

Downgoat

This is still about Rule 110 which is pretty BS reason imo

Arjun

@Phoenix Node.js?

Downgoat

@ATaco derivative you mean?

ATaco

04:40

See: The proof of the completeness of 110.

Also, Yes...

complex-systems.com/pdf/15-1-1.pdf

Downgoat

I am not arguing Rule 110

ATaco

HTML + CSS = 110, So either or the combination of the two is TC.

However, Python isn't TC if it's not running on a computer.

Destructible Lemon

@ATaco what?

what does that even mean?

Downgoat

@ATaco how is it simulating rule 110 it simply highlights the following state

ATaco

I'm not sure and I'm not knowledgeable enough on the topic to explain

Destructible Lemon

04:47

I'm working on a new song for my soundcloud btw guys

Arjun

@ATaco I agree. HTML's just a necessity for CSS to run! It doesn't mean that you gotta write some HTML code and then only CSS will accomplish implementing Rule 110! I think your Python example was quite dumb, though.

@DestructibleLemon You make songs? Wow!

Jan Dvorak

@Arjun disagreed. I can have DOM without touching a single line of HTML

Destructible Lemon

@Arjun the hard part is making good ones

get lmms and you too can put music on sound cloud

Jan Dvorak

I mean, jsfiddle counts as a runtime environment, right?

Destructible Lemon

lmms.io/download

also we have a room for discussing the musics when you want to talk about it in more detail

Arjun

04:56

@JanDvorak That's what I am trying to say with my second link! And my first sentence says that you can't include CSS on a website unless you make an HTML page! Nor there is any interpreter that parses CSS and displays the result!

@JanDvorak Doesn't JSfiddle do the same, under the hood?

Jan Dvorak

Does that mean you can't have CSS without machine code?

also, implied elements are DOM, but not HTML

Destructible Lemon

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/57669/the-pallete @Arjun

Jan Dvorak

I could set up a userstyle over about:blank. Look ma, no HTML!

Destructible Lemon

(I keep forgetting about the invite user functionality)

Jan Dvorak

Or, yeah, that obscure HTTP header

Arjun

05:00

@JanDvorak That's implementation by the browser, not the specs!

Jan Dvorak

which specs are you talking about?

Plus you have things like DomPDF. Look ma, no HTML! They do say "HTML elements" when they mean "DOM elements", but that's just to cater to the audience. There's no such thing as an HTML element.

Arjun

But still you can't make a .css file to execute in your browser!

Even if you have something like *:after{content:"Hello World!"} in that file

It will show you only the source code or a blank document

Not "Hello World!" printed on screen!

Jan Dvorak

Sure can, you just don't send it inline in the first connection. You send a response with a blank body and a special header first.

Arjun

You gotta have xyz.html with <style>*:after{content:"Hello World!"}</style>.

Jan Dvorak

nope, no need for that

Arjun

05:10

@JanDvorak How do you do that?

Jan Dvorak

It's in the link you sent to taco :-D

Arjun

Wow, so silly of me!

I didn't read to the bottom!

Sorry

Phoenix

CMC: Determine if you are running on a 64 bit system or not, assume your code will only be run on x86 and x86_64

ATaco

@Phoenix Bash, uname -m

Phoenix

Bonus points for not directly looking up system information and actually using the differences caused by x86/_64

ATaco

05:18

Challenge changed after a submission! MODS!

Jan Dvorak

`ruby -v`[/x\d+/]

Phoenix

I didn't change the challenge, I added a bounty opportunity.

(CMC Bounties awarded in the form of stars/guinea pig photos)

Jan Dvorak

Object.new.to_s.length

Leaky Nun

C: main(){printf("%d",sizeof(int)*8);}

ATaco

Bring me photos of Guinea pigs!!

Leaky Nun

05:21

(compiler-dependent)

and I apply for the bounty

Jan Dvorak

(yay for printing out memory addresses in default formats!)

Leaky Nun

@JanDvorak is this also applying for a bounty?

Phoenix

@ATaco Problem: the place where I host images has been blocked by Google Chrome's malware filter.

... crap

Jan Dvorak

@LeakyNun yes

Leaky Nun

@JanDvorak which language is that?

feersum

05:22

@LeakyNun That's not going to give you different results on x86 and x86-64.

Arjun

@JanDvorak Anyway, that settles that CSS is Turing complete (which is what @ATaco I wanted to say)!

ATaco

3

Jan Dvorak

Ruby

Leaky Nun

94

A: Is the size of C "int" 2 bytes or 4 bytes?

I know it's equal to sizeof(int). The size of an int is really compiler dependent. Back in the day, when processors were 16 bit, an int was 2 bytes. Nowadays, it's most often 4 bytes on a 32 bits system or 8 bytes on 64 bits system. Still, using sizeof(int) is the best way to get the size of an...

It's compiler-dependent.

Some compilers give you 32 bits regardless.

feersum

It depends on compilers that don't exist.

Leaky Nun

05:22

So the answer is wrong?

feersum

Yes.

Leaky Nun

never mind then

feersum

8086 or whatever 16-bit processor is not really what is referred to by x86.

Jan Dvorak

In Ruby, Object.new.to_s returns a string like "#<Object:0x000000032f2198>". The string length tells us how big pointers are on our system.

I'll take a stars photo, please

@feersum That certainly looks like an x86 to me

Phoenix

feersum

05:26

Wikipedia x86 says:

> The term "x86" came into being because the names of several successors to Intel's 8086 processor end in "86", including the 80186, 80286, 80386 and 80486 processors.

"Successors" so it seems to agree with me.

Jan Dvorak

all 16-bit, I guess?

ATaco

@JanDvorak 32*?

Arjun

@Phoenix f=_=>navigator.userAgent.indexOf($WOW|Win)64$ returns -1 if 32 bit or a positive integer if 64 bit. Courtesy of StackOverflow

feersum

No, but at least one is, which is a good point.

Jan Dvorak

Although, 8086's ISA is labeled as x86-16 on Wikipedia...

@Arjun find ?

Phoenix

05:28

I'd take more photos of my guinea pig but at present my sister is keeping me out of her room.

Jan Dvorak

swaps "guinea pig" with "sister" in his mind

ATaco

Lua, #tostring({})

Prints 16 for 32 bit and 21 for 64 bit.

Phoenix

Guinea pigs can be salty af if they believe that you have come in contact with vegetables any time in the last hour, but generally not capable of keeping one out of a room, no.

Arjun

@JanDvorak You mean search()?

Jan Dvorak

I guess

ATaco

05:32

Guinea pigs are excellent, you feed it a carrot stick and it just vacuums it like FWOOOP

Phoenix

Blueberries. They don't even chew them

Jan Dvorak

He could keep you out of your sister's room by demanding attention in your own room.

Phoenix

He figured out how to open his cage. He doesn't leave, he just stick his head out and gives you the evil eye until you feed him.

ATaco

Our bird does that.

It's a Cockatoo, so its mildly intimidating.

Jan Dvorak

evil eyes are fine. Just wait until he starts squealing.

Arjun

05:35

@JanDvorak f=_=>navigator.userAgent.search($Win|WOW)64$?

ATaco

He's a good bird.

Jan Dvorak

He'd probably be worse off than you if he decided to attack you

Arjun

or f=_=>navigator.userAgent.includes($Win|WOW)64$? this return true if system is 64 otherwise false

Phoenix

I have been once injured in a guinea pig attack. I was holding him and he started biting my neck repeatedly.

Arjun

@ATaco What's the age of your bird?

ATaco

05:39

A few years, can't give you a number off the top of my head.

Arjun

How much do birds live?

ATaco

40 - 60 years.

for a Cockatoo

Arjun

Which animal lives longest?

Phoenix

Turtles

Jan Dvorak

ninja'd

ATaco

05:41

(Ninja Turtle)

Arjun

Tortoises actually

The tortoise who was there when Sir Charles Darwin visited Galapagos!

Should we have tag name [utf-art]?

Phoenix

Nah

ascii-art is fine even if it's not ascii

Arjun

Yeah, so was I thinking

@ATaco Or that rat who teaches them

Jan Dvorak

Trees win by a wide margin

ATaco

> Which animal lives longest?

Jan Dvorak

05:49

I know the question...

Phoenix

Tardigrades, maybe?

Kritixi Lithos

They are super cool

Arjun

I think that tardigrades are extraterrestrial. Really, I think so.

betseg

In an ideal environment hydrae live the longest

Tardigrades live a few months if they aren't in that unhydrated zone

Leaky Nun

But hydra isn't an animal

Phoenix

05:52

Thanks wikipedia: wikiwand.com/en/List_of_longest-living_organisms

betseg

> Hydra /ˈhaɪdrə/ is a genus of small, fresh- water animals of the phylum Cnidaria

Leaky Nun

@betseg :o TIL

Jan Dvorak

Do amoebas count as animals?

betseg

No

Jan Dvorak

Why?

Phoenix

05:54

I can't find data on the oldest tardigrade.

Amoebas are protists, not animals

I think

cat

betseg

is an animal?

Jan Dvorak

... drat.

Arjun

Jellyfish -> They are biologically immortal

Jan Dvorak

> Jellyfish have roamed the seas for at least 500 million years,[2] and possibly 700 million years or more, making them the oldest multi-organ animal.[3]

Yay for ambiguity abuse!

ATaco

Yeah but I have a functional brain.

Suck it.

betseg

06:00

@Arjun like hydrae?

Leaky Nun

Jellyfish

Discussion about Jellyfish, Zgarb's 2D language. GitHub: githu...

This is a fun 2D language inspired by J and Jelly

Phoenix

But Jelly is already inspired by J

Leaky Nun

true

Phoenix

That's like saying extends ArrayList implements List

That metaphor would have worked better if multiple inheritance was a thing.

Leaky Nun

regex-golf: match a squarefree unary number

Arjun

06:03

Turritopsis dohrnii - The immortal creature which can never die unless eaten or caught hold of a disease

betseg

So like hydrae and jellyfish

Arjun

Turrito..whatever is a jellyfish

ATaco

@LeakyNun 00 2 is a squarefree number, this will match 2.

Phoenix

@LeakyNun I can't even figure out how to match perfect squares

Leaky Nun

@ATaco please.

Arjun

06:05

And yeah like Hydrae @betseg

Leaky Nun

@Phoenix ^(^.|\1..)+$

ATaco

Tardigrade

Tardigrades (/ˈtɑːrdᵻˌɡreɪd/; also known as water bears, space bears, pudgy wudgies, or moss piglets) are water-dwelling, eight-legged, segmented micro-animals. They were first discovered by the German zoologist Johann August Ephraim Goeze in 1773. The name Tardigrada (meaning "slow stepper") was given three years later by the Italian biologist Lazzaro Spallanzani. They have been found everywhere from mountaintops to the deep sea, mud volcanoes, and from tropical rain forests to the Antarctic. Tardigrades are one of the most resilient animals known: they can survive extreme conditions that would...

Leaky Nun

@Phoenix uses the fact that square numbers are consecutive sums of odd numbers

Phoenix

I see.

I wish Regex has a logical negate

Jan Dvorak

Ruby regex does

Leaky Nun

06:07

@Phoenix a squarefree number is not the negation of a perfect square

ATaco

A square free number is a number with no square factors.

Phoenix

I can just add a + quantifier around the entire thing to also get what's divisible by perfect squares.

Jan Dvorak

@Phoenix not quite

Leaky Nun

@Phoenix you need to add parentheses around the whole thing and then append \1* and change the \1 inside to \2

Phoenix

stahp editing that message

Leaky Nun

06:10

stopped

Phoenix

trust me guys I understand regex

Jan Dvorak

Ruby's regex negation

betseg

Phoenix

Does \0 inside a regex do anything? As in, /foo\0bar/

Leaky Nun

try it yourself

Phoenix

06:14

The only language I know how to make regex work in is Java, and I don't feel like writing a boilerplate rn

Leaky Nun

I literally gave you a link

8 mins ago, by Leaky Nun

@Phoenix ^(^.|\1..)+$

Phoenix

Oh I didn't notice that it was a link somehow

\0 matches the character with index 08 (010 or 016) literally (case sensitive)

wut

oic it's a character code

Leaky Nun

@SIGSEGV Please do not delete questions marked as duplicates.

I made a mistake.

It wasn't a duplicate.

@SIGSEGV Never mind, I found another question which is a duplicate.

I cannot reclose the question but I could reopen ;_;

Phoenix

This is so mesmerizing to watch

Phoenix

06:42

This is the fewest people I've ever seen in TNB at once.

ATaco

07:13

honk

ASCII-only

@Phoenix there's something in a browser called the console, ctrl+u/f12 -> /regex/g.exec('mystring')

Phoenix

I don't know JS

ASCII-only

@Phoenix also google exists, example search

Okx

07:37

@ASCII-only Really? What's Google?

ASCII-only

@Okx Oh if you're one of the people that don't have Google for some mysterious reason there's also this :P

Okx

I was joking :P

Mayube

Okay it looks like Braingolf definitely needs a prime factors builtin

ASCII-only

@Mayube why

Mayube

Because all the cool languages are doing it :D

my philosophy thus far for what builtins I should add basically comes down to whether I find something that I consider difficult to the point of being infeasible, or nigh-impossible (or actually impossible)

or at least that difficult within whatever I consider to be a reasonable amount of bytes

it'd likely take several hundred bytes to calculate the prime factors of a given number in braingolf, so i think a builtin is warranted

ASCII-only

07:49

@Mayube but why are you adding such a specific builtin

feersum

Challenges requiring factorizations are extremely common in PPCG.

Mayube

@ASCII-only Didn't I just explain why?

ASCII-only

@feersum that can be done using trial division though

feersum

Hmm, it seems like you haven't really grokked this code-golf thing.

ASCII-only

@feersum Well braingolf isn't exactly a golfing language

If it was, it would have a lot more builtins

feersum

07:52

So? Rewriting the same algorithm over and over is boring.

Mayube

> Braingolf needs more builtins to be a proper golfing language
> Why are you adding more builtins to braingolf?

Leaky Nun

@Phoenix oh and negation is done by negative lookarounds

ASCII-only

@Mayube well that's one more builtin, it isn't going to make a difference

Mayube

You realise braingolf has only existed for like a week right? Even all the good golfing languages like MATL and Jelly didn't start out with all the builtins they currently have

@ASCII-only no matter how many builtins I decide to add, I can only add them one at a time

ASCII-only

@Mayube I know, but adding only one complex builtin is a bit too few

@Mayube well they probably did since they wouldn't have been released with only a small number of builtins since they wouldn't have been competitive at all

MATL and Jelly were pretty much competitive from when they were released

Leaky Nun

07:54

@Phoenix and the answer is ^(?!((^.|\2..){2,})\1*$).+

Mayube

Why am I even wasting time justifying it? It's my language I can do whatever I want :P

ASCII-only

@Mayube yeah I know, I'm just saying you should have a few more builtins, a prime factoring builtin seems oddly specific, it may be needed for some challenges but nowhere near all of them

Kritixi Lithos

@LeakyNun what does that do?

Leaky Nun

2 hours ago, by Leaky Nun

regex-golf: match a squarefree unary number

Kritixi Lithos

oh, nice

Jellyfish

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