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11:00 PM
@Dennis Retina, One byte. a
 
Jelly, 0 bytes. :P
 
I think Retina, 0 bytes as well
 
Why does jelly implicitly print 0..?
@ConorO'Brien Nah, the Retina 0 byte prints 1.
 
CMC: solve P=NP, 500 point bounty :P
@ATaco eh, off-by-one error.
 
Basically any language, 0 bytes. Output via exit code.
 
11:01 PM
@ConorO'Brien P = 0, classic result
 
with your work I've proved that 500 = 0 :P
(or shall I say :0)
 
@ATaco Because the left argument defaults to 0. The way Jelly is written, it has to default to something.
 
Fair enough.
 
0 makes sense. When I wrote Jolf I had to define a default value for errored functions. I somehow thought 42 was a good idea.
42 does not make sense >.>
 
@Phoenix Except Dyalog APL on TIO. (Open Debug.)
 
11:04 PM
@Adám ...why
 
And compiled languages like C, Java
 
@Fatalize Exit code 2 means all-OK, but program failed to explicitly terminate the interpreter.
 
ಠ_ಠ
 
@Fatalize compare
 
...that doesn't really make more sense
 
11:06 PM
Why is it in the input field?
 
because APL is more of a repl-type-calculator thingy IIRC
 
@Phoenix Input gets piped into APL. Code gets defined, but not run.
 
I like APL, but I can't write or read it to save myself.
 
That's... odd
 
@ATaco Not a problem. I can teach you. And, btw, if you know basic math, then you already know a large chunk of APL.
 
11:08 PM
@Phoenix And in C89, main(){} returns 166, for obvious reasons. tio.run/nexus/c-gcc#@5@bmJmnoVld@///v@S0nMT04v@6usUlKbbJFpZf8/…
 
Oh of course.
 
@ATaco you should try J then. it's marginally more readable :P
 
Why wouldn't an empty main program output 166?
 
I'd say J is less readable than APL
 
@ConorO'Brien I disagree. J uses one or two chars per function.
 
11:09 PM
too many . and :
 
@ATaco Main returns an int. Without a return statement, you have undefined behavior. C99 fixed that.
 
I'm hurt, biased, and wrong lol
 
@Adám Doesn't APL do that too, complete with it's own special chars?
 
@Phoenix No. Only one char. So there is never a problem parsing the tokens.
 
@Adám When/How could you use the Code field, anyway?
 
11:10 PM
at least J is easier to type
 
^
 
@Phoenix I always populate the Code field with the program I'm showing, then I call it from Input.
 
@ConorO'Brien Idk, it's a lot easier to remember APL's glyphs than J's two-byte tokens.
 
@ConorO'Brien True, although I imagine your period and colon keys wear out...
 
I find Jelly's even easier to remember because I don't even try I just always keep github.com/DennisMitchell/jelly/wiki/atoms open.
 
11:12 PM
> remember
 
I remember to open the page.
 
Personally I can't remember APL's tokens for the life of me.
 
@Adám When do you use J?
 
I like J's functions because the functions you use most are without . and :, and the functions that do use . and : are usually conceptually related to the function without the trailing char; compare |. with |: (reverse and transpose)
 
11:13 PM
@Phoenix When I remember that it has some primitive that does exactly what a challenge asks for, e.g. when dealing with primes, or diagonals.
 
I wish Javascript Regex had Recurrsion.
 
@ConorO'Brien and (and then we have ⊖ too...)
@Phoenix My favourite.
 
I still don't know which of those does which, though that's because I hardly use APL
 
^^^ why do the first two have lines that extend outside the circle but not the third one, that's ugly...
 
@ConorO'Brien each one flips over the line. horizontal, transpose, vertical.
 
11:19 PM
ok that's pretty cool
 
@Fatalize Because of the rectangular bounding box of normal Latin fonts. That's really a font issue more than an APL thing, though.
 
Should have made all of them as the third one
 
Out of curiosity, is APL extendable? E.g. can you define operators as symbols? e.g. define ¯ x to be x + 2 and y ¯ x to be x + y
 
@Fatalize IIRC, that was how iverson drew them.
 
that thing is ¯ but in monospace
 
11:21 PM
@ConorO'Brien Only in ngn apl.
 
does dyalog ever plan on implementing something like that?
 
0
Q: When life gives you lemons, make lemonade

Albert RenshawChallenge You will be given an input string, anywhere the word "Lemon" is found it should be converted to "Lemonade" but the a, d, and e must be removed from somewhere else in the sentence. Example Example Input: I found a lemon when I was a kid Example Output: I foun a lemonade w...

 
@ConorO'Brien Not to let you change meaning of existing glyphs, no. Possibly to allow assigning meaning to unused ones. But management are weary of doing so for fear that we'd want a glyph after "setting it free".
 
Well, you have all of unicode to work with, right?
 
I mean, if you allowed the changing of existing glyphs, then you could afford to set them free
 
11:24 PM
@ConorO'Brien We do allow some national characters in identifiers, and also and and all the circled uppercase letters (Ⓐ Ⓑ Ⓒ…) so there are some possibilities. E.g. one of our utility libraries uses ø.
@Phoenix Yes.
 
Well, you'll hardly run out of symbols then.
 
@ConorO'Brien True, but IMHO, it would make APL unreadable if I couldn't rely on the core symbols meaning what they always did.
@Phoenix No, but we put extreme effort into choosing the "right" symbol for every new primitive, and it would be sad if you couldn't "get" that one because we had set it free.
 
you could make the redefinition/definition of alternative characters obvious enough so that the one who reads the code know there's some trickery going on
 
You could also define symbols in the Unicode Private Use Areas.
 
@ConorO'Brien Try it online!
 
11:30 PM
does assigning to an argument only work when it's undefined?
 
@ConorO'Brien I can't imagine how that would work. Should such changes be global?
@Phoenix Then they wouldn't be available in regular fonts (albeit ugly).
@ConorO'Brien No, not in general. It is a special rule that assignment to (which represents the left argument in the dfn type explicit functions) only works if the function was called monadically. Otherwise the statement is skipped.
 
oh cool
does APL have some sort of monad/dyad case definition? like f =: monad : dyad in J
@Adám Idk much about the syntax of APL, but maybe something like )DEFINE ¯ {⍺←2 ⋄ ⍺ + ⍵}
 
Bah, I'm sticking to Mathematica.
This stuff is too complicated for me.
 
@ConorO'Brien No, not yet. I've considered it, but being that explicit functions are easy, it is also easy to branch based on valence. E.g., traditional functions can ask the system if they were called monadically with 900⌶: Try it online!
 
it looks a little convoluted
 
11:38 PM
@ConorO'Brien There's also the generalised checking of Name-Class of identifiers. So I can get the type of argument (or indication of its absence) with ⎕NC. Overloading is easy!
@ConorO'Brien Yeah, I've proposed that a dfn explicit function should be able to checks its valence with an extension of the "guard" syntax: {2:'dyadic' ⋄ 'monadic'}
 
that looks nice--how would you define a multi-statement function?
 
@ConorO'Brien Ugh. And that still wouldn't make things less obscure.
 
that's true.
 
@ConorO'Brien e.g. `{2:⍺{first←statement ⋄ second←expression ⋄ result}⍵ ⋄ first←statement ⋄ second←expression ⋄ result}
 
ohh cool
 
11:47 PM
@ConorO'Brien … or {2: result ⊣ second←expression ⊣ first←statement ⋄ result ⊣ second←expression ⊣ first←statement}
@ConorO'Brien Both of these already work. The only new thing here is the 2. Currently, the expression the the left of : must result in a boolean singleton.
 
Anyone know a way I could take a screenshot of a specific html element? Like of a crafting recipe from the Minecraft wiki
So I get this without having to manually select it
 
Is V usable as a normal text editor, besides a golfing language?
 
Everything is a text editor if you're brave enough
12
 
@ConorO'Brien Here is a working model for the idea. The only difference from actual implementation would is the "_ " before the 2.
 
@Fatalize Okay, I will use butterflies.
 
11:59 PM
I've heard even VIM can be used as a text editor by the brave.
 

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