The Nineteenth Byte

Pavel

22:00

github.com/dkudriavtsev/wsf

El'endia Starman

@flawr How interesting. It seems like it's 3D.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@MartinEnder I made a new sandbox post based off your comment on my old anagram quine post

this comment

New Sandboxed Posts

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A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Make a shuffle quine! Closely based off this sandbox post, however I deleted the old one and posted this new answer for new feedback. code-challengequineanagram An shuffle quine is defined as a quine, of which shuffled sets of "chunks" also form quines. For example, pretend in my magical lang...

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

that was fairly fast

nj new sandboxed posts

ATaco

Well, I have no intention of trying that challenge.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

22:07

eh it shouldn't be too hard

ATaco

If it weren't for that 'distinct program' rule, I could just do n 1's separated by newlines and claim n/(2^(n-1)) score.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

I mean, the best answers will probably be pretty complicated, but it's pretty similar to radiation hardened quines

@ATaco not a proper quine

ATaco

1
1

Is a valid quine in RProgN.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

?

@ATaco not on PPCG

Pavel

Not a proper quine by our rules

ATaco

22:08

Not by Payload Capable, yes by Distinct Parts.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

quines like that don't count, it has to encode itself and output it

flawr

@El'endiaStarman Playing around with fractals is better than any drug. Except chocolate.

ATaco

It is, infact, encoding itself.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ATaco all checks have to be passed

@ATaco how?

ATaco

Each one is printing the other one.

ais523

22:10

could someone take a look at the argument that's going on in the comments here?

Pavel

Comment arguments. You want us to look at comment arguments.

ais523

FWIW, I think a) that RProgN quine is valid by PPCG rules, b) the rules in question are probably broken

@Pavel well it's about whether or not an entry is valid

ATaco

^ Agreed

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ATaco so it's not payload capable? then it's not a quine, regardless of the encoding prat

ATaco

The RProgN quine is valid by our most popular definition of a Quine, but that definition is clearly flawed because of this.

ais523

22:11

23723 is a similar quine in 7 (which is 2 bytes long rather than 3 due to the sub-byte encoding)

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

which definition?

ais523

that said, 3 is a payload-capable quine in 7

ATaco

18

A: What counts as a proper quine?

We've been discussing this in chat recently, and coming up with a solid definition seems difficult. The best idea I've got is to base a definition for a true quine on the principles given on this page: a true quine will in one way or another consist of data, and code. The data represents the code...

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

that's not encoding itself though

it just happens to print itself

Pavel

It needs to do both

ATaco

22:12

Let me clarify.

Unlike 1 which does just print itself.

1\n1 is an interesting set of steps.

If we look at it like 1\n2, it's more obvious.

Because 1 is first pushed to the stack, then 2 is.

ais523

which prints 2\n1

ATaco

^

So 1\n1 isn't printing itself directly.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

are you careting your own message?

ais523

still, it seems unsatisfactory to me that 1\n1 is a proper quine, but 1\n2 isn't a proper cyclic quine

even though they both work identically

ATaco

Nope, accidental double tap on the ^, because International Keyboard.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

22:14

ah, I see what you mean

ATaco

Also, 1\n2 won me a cyclic quine challenge.

ais523

fwiw, I'd like to see a definition of quine for which fix repr is a proper quine

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ATaco still doesn't score well at all

ais523

(it expands to repr (fix repr), i.e. "fix repr")

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

it's all permutations of any length / all permutations of any length that are quines

ais523

22:15

that are proper quines, you mean?

random strings have a fairly large probability of being improper quines, in many languages

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

yeah, I was assuming quine = proper quine for the most part

ATaco

The amount of Permutations, although not unique ones, would be 2^(n-2) for n 1's separated by newlines.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ais523 read the challenge description

ais523

@ATaco wasn't that specifically about a cheating cyclic quine though?

ATaco

(I think)

It was, but in the end it was considered a non-cheating quine, which was still valid by the challenge rules.

8

A: Cheating Cyclic Quine

RProgN, 4 Bytes. The community seems to consider this sort of thing as a cheating quine, which thus satisfies the criteria. 1 2 With a trailing newline. This prints 2 1 With a trailing newline, which prints the first code. RProgN prints the stack popping, so from top to bottom. Try it o...

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

22:17

@ATaco of any length

ATaco

Oh, I see where my issue is, the first half of that division I was confused with.

For some reason I thought it was just program length.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ah no it's not

so your score will get exponentially lower for every extra 1\n you add

flawr

@El'endiaStarman Found a better color mapping (~25mb gif)

ATaco

Also, for the curious, a more Valid RProgN quine is "%q ] F" ] F

ais523

@ATaco FWIW, I believe that the quine in question is cheating (although obviously still valid); however, my answer in 7 (which uses an identical principle) is shorter :-P

El'endia Starman

22:19

@flawr Mmm, yummy. :P

ATaco

@ais523 I know, I was very disgruntled when I saw you pull that 7 quine out.

ais523

btw, the shortest uncontroversial quine in 7 is probably 223372233

ATaco

(Also I was wrong, I didn't win that challenge)

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

7 is weird

4

ais523

the right 2233 prints the left 2233 twice

wait, no

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

22:20

@flawr do you actually use matlab to make these?

ais523

it prints itself twice

ATaco

I also found the current shortest Threead quine! :D

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ermahgerd i has stars

@ATaco you made it, so that's not too suprising ;p

Pavel

You made Threead

Ninja'd

ais523

1322337132233 has the right 132233 print the left 132233 twice

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

22:21

ninja'ed

flawr

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Yep, it is nice for fiddling with stuff, but incredibly slow.

ais523

and 7 is sort-of like a comma

ATaco

Yes, but I suck at quines.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@flawr ah oaky

Pavel

Also, afaik only one person even attempted it.

ATaco

22:21

Two now.

ais523

when I wrote 7, I very much had "make this language capable of producing short quines with arbitrary levels of cheatingness" in mind

ATaco

@ais523 Produced a nearly identical quine (unintentionally so)

">34co<o>o<o">34co<o>o<o

If someone thinks they can golf that, they can be my guest.

ais523

you mean 34?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ais523 maybe I should place more importance of the overall length of your code, rather than total permutations/quine permutations

Pavel

32 is space

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

22:22

@ais523 well that worked then

ATaco

Wrote that from memory, sorry 'bout that.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

this is a important moment in TNB history

Pavel

What is?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

I said "emahgerd I got stars"

and I didn't get stars on that

Dennis

@quartata Yes, all locks behave differently. We tested several of them last year, and historical significance wad the o ly one that did what we wanted.

Pavel

22:23

Wait, where's the message?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

this is the first time somebody refrained from starring a message about getting stars

Pavel

I don't see it

ais523

I asked about whether 7C E7 in 7 is a proper quine or not

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Pavel scroll up

ais523

the answer from the author was that they had no idea how it fit with the definition :-)

Pavel

22:23

Found it!

ATaco

You failed me.

El'endia Starman

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ Well done on ruining that momentous moment. :P

Pavel

хахахахахахаха

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Pavel -.-

@El'endiaStarman in actuality that was more (subtle) starbait

and it has failed to get stars

ais523

well done on ruining a fairly interesting conversation about quines :-(

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

22:24

and I'm honestly not sure what's going to happen next

CALLED IT

NOBODY CAN RESIST TEH STARBAIT

/s

ATaco

But what if THIS is starbait?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

aw bye bye stars

Pavel

Isn't it all starbait?

ais523

> suppose I have a programming language which prints every command as it's executed, with no newline, but always ensures that output has a final newline if it's missing one; is print "\n" a quine?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ATaco ... what did you seriously expect of course it was

ais523

22:25

there, that's how I broke the current proper quine definition

ATaco

Everything I say has some level of starbait to it.

ais523

(such a quine is 2 bytes long in 7)

El'endia Starman

Ugh, guys, there was a site-relevant discussion on quines going on.

ATaco

Same in RProgN!

Wait, I think.

ais523

it used to, but I think you changed the newline behavour to allow for shorter quines

hmm, the thing that amuses me is that RProgN and 7 are fairly similar when it comes to quine corner cases

but the reasons behind it are fairly different

El'endia Starman

22:27

(It really sucks sometimes that it's hard to tell who's starring stuff.)

ais523

in 7, all programs are written as a series of literals that are pushed to the stack, then they're copied from the stack into the program (unescaping them in the process); I did that to reduce the number of characters needed to write a program, as it means that unescaped commands don't need to appear literally ever

ATaco

It seems I can't produce that output in two lines.

Bytes, even.

But I can do it in three.

ais523

how does it look in 3?

ATaco

Wait, that's not actually a quine.

I have made many mistake in creating this program

Nathan Merrill

hmmm...I'm thinking about disallowing hiding variables with local variables

El'endia Starman

22:29

@NathanMerrill In what context?

ais523

anyway, because the commands get copied onto the stack, their original unescaped representation is still lying around on the stack

so you can do things like printing it

Nathan Merrill

aka, an inner scope cannot have a variable named the same thing in a outer scope

ais523

this also means that you don't have to write a quine just to be able to do a loop (like you do in Underload and Muriel)

Nathan Merrill

function(){
    var a = 0;
    function(){
        var a = 1;
    }
}

ah, the term is shadowing :P

ATaco

var a = 0;
function(){
    console.log(a);
    var a = 1;
}

Now, pop quiz, what is printed?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

22:31

@El'endiaStarman it's possible with websockets iirc

@ATaco hrmmmm "Hello, World!"?

ais523

@ATaco assuming Javascript, I'm guessing undefined

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

what lang?

ais523

because scope in Javascript works differently from most other languages

ATaco

Yeah, Javascript.

ais523

this is because it was written in a huge hurry and taking shortcuts in the scoping implementation allowed it to be released on time

ATaco

22:31

And yes, undefined is correct.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

it's also a syntax error iirc

yeah, tested and it is

@ATaco did you test your code? it's an error

ais523

are there any JavaScript variants that don't error on undeclared variables?

IE6, perhaps?

El'endia Starman

Oh, you can't var-define a variable after using it?

ATaco

I did not test it...

var a = 0;
(function(){
    console.log(a);
    var a = 1;
})()

I forgot to call the function.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

it's an error cause of the parends in function()

@ATaco no that's not it

ATaco

22:33

That code runs for me.

orlp

anyone here play infinifactory?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ATaco where are you running it?

ATaco

Firefox Console.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ah okay

chrome console with es7 errors

so does js.do for that matter

ATaco

I wonder how I'd put a bounty on proving that Threead with a single thread is or is not Turing Complete.

Maybe I should ask Programming? But I lack the rep to give away there.

ais523

22:35

it might be worth doing it somewhere other than PPCG

Esolang often gets that sort of question answered eventually (although it can take months)

actually, I believe it is

or, hmm

Nathan Merrill

@orlp that was on my list after Factorio, but uh...Factorio

ais523

actually no, what happens if you do int→string conversion on something that's already a string?

ATaco

Threead is definitely Turing Complete with all three threads, as it can transpile brainfuck pretty easily.

ais523

I was hoping it'd be double-escaped but there's no reason to believe that

ATaco

Also, it does not.

ais523

22:36

I find it hard to get my head around languages with more than one data type

that's common on PPCG but really rare in esolangs generally

ATaco

Well, Threead has only two.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

well community was bored apparently

DJMcMayhem

@ais523 Esolangs question: Is there a name for languages with a 2D memory model? (Not 2D syntax like fungeoids and ><>)

ais523

if it is, Threead is TC with one thread

now I wonder if Boolfuck is TC using explicit set-to-1 and set-to-0 operators

@DJMcMayhem I don't think so, mostly because the extra memory dimension doesn't make much difference to how the program works in practice

there's rarely a reason to actually use it

New Sandboxed Posts

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A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

ASCII Art "Flight Simulator" Background I love progressive ascii art as I tend to call it. Here is another idea. Challenge Here is an ascii plane --o-- Here is an ascii runway ____| |____ The plane starts at 5 newlines above the runway (to prevent any clashes between metric and impe...

ais523

22:38

the exception is if you're doing something like a language for processing data that's naturally 2D

like Snails or MATL

DJMcMayhem

ASCII art

ais523

but even then, the memory itself isn't really 2D, it's just that the language has a lot of 2D primitives

DJMcMayhem

V, Charcoal, and Turtled all operate on a canvas of 2D characters

ATaco

Also, what defines a 2D Language?

ais523

@ATaco it's Turing complete, just worked out a translation from extended-Smallfuck (the same language I used to prove MiniMAX Turing complete)

the basic idea is that you have a tape whose elements are 0, 1, data, 0, 1, data, …

ATaco

22:41

Welp, that's an issue.

Now I need to break it.

ais523

the data only ever stores 0 and 1

and you can invert it via a series of loops, using the regular 0, 1 pattern in order to regain your bearings after an unbalanced loop

this gives you extended-Smallfuck's set of primitives, which are known TC (if highly inefficient)

there's probably a different construction involving Minsky machine counters, too

El'endia Starman

@ATaco You mean make single-thread Threead not TC?

Nathan Merrill

hmmm...I thought of a good case for not disallowing shadowing: the for loop

but I don't like for loops anyways

El'endia Starman

@NathanMerrill How can you say such a thing?!

Nathan Merrill

I'm referring to the for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++)

ais523

22:44

@NathanMerrill my suggestion is that you have cross-scope variables that are nonshadowable, and one-scope variables that can exist in nested scopes, but inherently can't be shadowed because they don't exist in inner scopes just like they don't exist in outer scores

although this means that you need a bunch of lightweight control structures that don't create scopes

ATaco

I could just make all monodic operations effect the stack to then left

Nathan Merrill

@ais523 I'm confused. Code example?

ATaco

which breaks my quines, but fixes my issues

ais523

@NathanMerrill for (local i = 0 .. 10) { print(i); for (…) { /* i is not accessible here */ } }

this might be a bit too extreme at preventing shadowing-based errors though

but the idea is that you'd use locals in most places, and larger scopes only if you had to

Nathan Merrill

oh, so you can't access the variables outside your little scope unless you explicitly declare it?

like how python does nonlocal?

although nonlocal is just for writing

so, a bit different

ais523

22:48

@NathanMerrill yes

although my experience is that function-scope variables are useful too

they should probably be explicitly declare as such, and not allow shadowing

they're helpful in involved imperative code (algorithms, etc.)

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

23:29

@Downgoat update tf2 server?

DJMcMayhem

23:44

Video game friends

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@DJMcMayhem nice cat

I love how they say valve is loyal though

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, that one is the least accurate

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

I think on purpose

I mean, they describe cats as friendly

nobody would define be dumb enough to say that

@DJMcMayhem twitter.com/undertale_bot

quartata

I feel like people who say Valve is lazy haven't played Dota. We get updates almost every day

7.00 was almost a complete rewrite of everything.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

yeah

dota and only dota

quartata

23:55

I'd say the better term is that they're one track minded. Their structure doesn't really promote permanent teams so work on games just depends on which way the wind is blowing

DJMcMayhem

Wait so do you hate valve or not? Make up your mind

quartata

Did either of those statments contradict each other?

DJMcMayhem

No, it's just I'm used to you complaining about valve and now you're defending them

quartata

FWIW CSGO is actually getting plenty of updates -- people are just mad salty about things they've done

@DJMcMayhem Only in jest and/or extreme frustration over obscure engine internals

DJMcMayhem

Hmm OK then. I thought you despised valve

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