The Nineteenth Byte

Conor O'Brien

03:00

what's your question? I have designed many an esolang

and a few regular languages as well

ASCII-only

@Pavel TNB is probably the best place to ask :P

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ATaco what would you ask?

Pavel

Area 51 let's go

ASCII-only

@ConorO'Brien Many is an understatement

ATaco

"Why would anyone in their right mind use Malbolge"

ASCII-only

03:01

@Pavel Think first, I'd come up with the five sample questions before posting to area 51

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel Yeah let's go

Pavel

Oh yeah, I'm thinking.

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel "What's the difference between a joke language and a golfing language?"

ATaco

"At what point is a language a Brainfuck Derivative?"

Pavel

I'm writing an interpreter in C. What's the best way to implement infinite precision integers?

It might have some overlap with SO.

ATaco

03:03

We had Challenges on SO before we had PPCG.

quartata

You let GMP do it

ASCII-only

@Pavel GMP

Pavel

It doesn't just have to be esolangs

ASCII-only

Damnit, ninja'd

Downgoat

@Pavel MPIR

ATaco

03:04

languagedesign.stackexchange.com?

Pavel

I don't actually care, I don't C. That was just an example.

Downgoat

MPIR has mpf

ASCII-only

@ATaco No reason? This guy isn't in his right mind

Pavel

languagedesign.se sounds good. Should I?

Downgoat

I guess

ATaco

03:05

Honestly, I think it would be a good place to get information for those interesting in writing Golfing langs or Esolangs.

+1

Pavel

I can't find the button to create a proposal.

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel Yeah

@Pavel Scroll to the bottom here

quartata

Dupe of Programmers

If it's actual language design that is

TrojanByAccident

It's not just language design, though

ATaco

Programmers isn't language design.

Actually, it's rarely language design.

quartata

03:08

Most of your sample questions were either too broad or about weird implementation details

Conor O'Brien

@ASCII-only the truth is scary

quartata

@ATaco Programmers is absolutely the place for language design questions.

I've seen many.

ATaco

The place, yes.

But it's not a well known or used asset for such.

Then again, language design is a niche.

Pavel

area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/105894/…

Done

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel Already followed it :P

Pavel

03:10

(Pls follow)

ATaco

Now we must try to think of well structured questions.

Pavel

The thought just occurred to me I should have detailed it better to include discussion of esolangs in general.

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel How would the current details not fit that?

Pavel

I should have done it better.

ATaco

Threead now has Flow of Control implemented.

1
10[o  r]
32coi-d

Print all numbers from 10 to 1, separated by spaces.

ASCII-only

03:14

@Pavel Okay now an esolang design SE makes it way too narrow IMO

Ashwin Gupta

@ASCII-only where is this damn changelog? I've been looking everywhere for one I can't find that? Also I think I may have found a fix. Someone proposed a branch change

Pavel

I changed it a bit, is it better now?

ASCII-only

@AshwinGupta Okay not exactly a changelog, here

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel yes

Ashwin Gupta

@ASCII-only ah thanks

Pavel

03:15

"How would one represent floating-point numbers in Brainfuck"

?

Ashwin Gupta

@Downgoat the 30 pin analog ports. It takes all 30.

ATaco

I feel that's a pretty good on-topic question regarding Esolangs, yet not so much Language Design.

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel I think that's good

Pavel

"Programming Languages and Language Design"

ATaco

As long as questions are about the languages, and not Programming itself, we aren't treading on Programming's turf.

Maltysen

03:17

@Pavel same as other floats but base 256?

or just make it fixed and not float

ASCII-only

@Pavel This is not language design at all

ATaco

Have you tried to write a number in Brainfuck?

quartata

@ATaco That isn't what Programmers is about....

Maltysen

@ASCII-only oh shit that wasn't a real question you were asking

ATaco

I am aware.

Hence I said it's Not treading on their turf.

quartata

03:18

Please read the A51 FAQ. This proposal will be merged

ASCII-only

@Maltysen ???

quartata

@ATaco I mean that Programmers is not about code but design

Maltysen

@ASCII-only I actually answered his question about brainfuck floats

but then realized it was just a hypothetical :P

quartata

It is their turf. It's a freaking tag

ASCII-only

@Maltysen oh :P yeah it's in quotes

Pavel

03:19

As someone else pointed out, before PPCG existed, challenges used to be posted to SO.

ATaco

s h r u g

quartata

????? And closed

TrojanByAccident

I think many questions that will be generated on this new site would be off-topic on others

quartata

My point is there is literally a tag for language design on Programmers. It is, in every sense of the phrase, a textbook merge.

Conor O'Brien

wait does that mean I asked this question on the wrong SE

Pavel

03:23

No, it's the place for it now.

quartata

That is Programmers?

Pavel

There's not a better place for it at present.

El'endia Starman

Yeah, Programmers.SE == SoftwareEngineering.SE.

Pavel

Programmers.se redirects to SoftwareEngineering.se

Conor O'Brien

@El'endiaStarman oh, TIL

ATaco

03:24

Hmm, Although I hold my Support for a Language Design Sub, I understand why it would be merged.

TrojanByAccident

If you look at some of the comments, they note that that question is off-topic, whereas on this new one, it might not be

quartata

@ATaco It will be. Read the FAQ, they give guidelines

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ConorO'Brien they renamed it recently

Conor O'Brien

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ but why

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

something about SO/SU questions on there

idr

Conor O'Brien

03:26

hm

ASCII-only

@AshwinGupta btw looks to me like initDigitalPort should still be accessible though

quartata

@TrojanByAccident Because the answers are subjective, not because language design isn't allowed there

That's a global rule for the most part

Conor O'Brien

the question asks about readability. That's quite objective, no?

quartata

This is a red herring

Pavel

It's also a place to ask about esolangs in general

Conor O'Brien

03:27

is it

not intentionally

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ConorO'Brien damn, sorta ninja

Pavel

No, it is.

ATaco

Isn't WorldBuilding subjective by nature?

Conor O'Brien

by a minute, no less

@ATaco and puzzling, and code review (if readability is not objective)

quartata

@ConorO'Brien That wasn't in reply to you. Also I am merely restating their argument not agreeing

TrojanByAccident

03:29

@ATaco nope, the questions there are not subjective. many [answers], in fact, show lots of research and scientific proof

Conor O'Brien

@quartata oh ok.

quartata

@ATaco Those are exceptions although good WB questions are not

Conor O'Brien

@TrojanByAccident "How do I make <x> work in my universe?" Completely subjective, very broad question, multitudes of valid answers. Not all questions are of this form, but many are.

TrojanByAccident

@ConorO'Brien Please give a link to one like that

ATaco

@TrojanByAccident Researched, yes, Provable, yes. Objective? Not necessarily. The question Who is spreading the rumour that Snata Clause isn't real was a very well received question. However, was incredibly open ended.

quartata

03:30

That's not a good WB question merely a popuar one

ATaco

SE is a service defined by it's people, Popular is good.

For the most part...

Conor O'Brien

@TrojanByAccident there was one on HNQ, idk where it is now.

El'endia Starman

Popular != good in many cases.

Actually, probably the majority.

ASCII-only

e.g. the starboard (see this is already starred)

3

TrojanByAccident

@ATaco If many people downvote a question and talk about it, it's still popular, whether or not it's good :P

Conor O'Brien

03:31

quartata makes an excellent point, which can be readily observed by challenges like those clickbait questions on our own site

ASCII-only

And most of the PPCG questions on the HNQ (oh wait ninja'd)

orlp

don't star this

3

El'endia Starman

I mean, look at this ridiculous thing. Bare minimum of effort, top-voted answer.

Pavel

This is a trick question, isn't it @orlp

orlp

@Pavel no?

it's not even a question

it's a command, and you are all obeying well

quartata

03:33

Anyeays this doesn't really matter. Just don't be surprised when your proposal is closed by the CMs in 3 days

orlp

oh

we have a rebel in the room

Pavel

Welp

orlp

who doesn't like being told what to do

TrojanByAccident

@orlp does anyone, really?

ATaco

I do.

Yes, Tell me what to do~

Conor O'Brien

03:34

@ATaco No, you don't.

:P

ATaco

That's why I have a full time job!

Pavel

You'll notice that it only has 2 stars.

orlp

@TrojanByAccident I command you to not like being told what to do

oh oh I seem to have created a paradox

Pavel

Despite there being more people here than that.

Conor O'Brien

@orlp methinks you replied to the wrong person

TrojanByAccident

03:35

@orlp o.0

ASCII-only

@Pavel Probably because most people are sensible

TrojanByAccident

@orlp The next sentence is false. The previous statement is true.

Pavel

I didn't star it.

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Source code standard deviation Your program should accept as input a string, convert it to a byte array using UTF-8 encoding and output the standard deviation of the n bytes. Standard deviation is given by this formula, where x1...xn are the string's bytes: Example Input hello: UTF-8 enco...

ATaco

This sentence, when interpreted, should treat false as true and true as false.

ASCII-only

03:37

@Pavel Yeah but some people did, and it really doesn't belong on the starboard

ATaco

I starred it

Pavel

That's what we have El'Endia for.

TrojanByAccident

It seems to have lost a star?

ASCII-only

@Pavel ?

Is El'endia the chat mod of starboard cleaning?

Pavel

That's why his name is El'endia Starman

El'endia Starman

03:40

Excellent theory. Only problem with it is that I chose my name many years ago, well before I discovered SE.

Pavel

Well, it suits you perfectly

quartata

Also I'm not sure El'endia appreciates this treatment as star janitor slave

Can't you just not star it in the first place? :P

Pavel

No one makes El'endia do it.

TrojanByAccident

Question - anyone know why some a51 french version of a site got closed, but a51 SO french and a51 Spanish something are not closed?

Conor O'Brien

@Pavel since the proposal will most likely be closed, if you were actually looking for an answer:

For an esoteric language, it makes more sense to merge the chars into the stack (esolangs are better at atom-wise data manipulation). For a conventional stack-based language, it makes more sense to have a single object, usually being more capable of manipulating groups of data.

Pavel

03:43

Thanks. I haven't actually implemented string in any form into Sushi yet.

Ashwin Gupta

@ASCII-only doesn't seem to be. Eclipse certainly doesn't recognize it and there are a couple people having this issue who opened it up on the github repo. Someone proposed a fix which I'll try tomorrow (and pray works)

Conor O'Brien

@Pavel do you have an rudimentary spec for Sushi?

Pavel

Basically, it's ><>, but better.

I have yet to decide what "better" means

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel same

Ashwin Gupta

@ASCII-only also thats old code, this is the current code: github.com/wpilibsuite/allwpilib/blob/master/wpilibj/src/athena/…

Conor O'Brien

03:45

@Pavel I decided "better" meant more able to do things with reticular

PhiNotPi

Totally off topic, but I find it rather interesting (even morbid) how concussions can cause personality changes. One of my friends suffered a concussion and the difference is noticeable. Also he switched from an English major to chemical engineering.

Pavel

Language features include two stacks, and an instruction pointer which wraps at whitespace instead of code boundary.

Conor O'Brien

@PhiNotPi indeed! while not as extreme, my own friend suffered a major concussion, coming back more extroverted.

ASCII-only

@AshwinGupta Ah then I'm pretty sure the fix works, if you look at DigitalInput in the old code it calls initDigitalPort with its constructor, I'm assuming the new one does the same thing

TrojanByAccident

I'm currently in the process of starting over with PigeonScript, including removing a good portion of the specs and re-writing it, updating the interpreter, fixing stuff, etc

Ashwin Gupta

03:47

@ASCII-only yeah thats what I'm guessing also.

ASCII-only

@TrojanByAccident Link?

TrojanByAccident

@ASCII-only github.com/PigeonScript

Ashwin Gupta

@ASCII-only actually no github.com/wpilibsuite/allwpilib/blob/master/wpilibj/src/athena/…

TrojanByAccident

the -outdated one is the one I'm taking files from

Ashwin Gupta

but their is a constructor for channel

TrojanByAccident

03:49

i'm going to make a new repo soon

ATaco

128[ r    ]
    -
1    lco_1

Print all characters from byte 128 to nul.

Threead is looking horrifying and good.

TrojanByAccident

is that a language?

Pavel

It is now

TrojanByAccident

o.0

Pavel

As of a couple hours ago, in fact.

TrojanByAccident

03:50

and I thought PigeonScript programs were hard to read

ATaco

It kind of makes sense.

It's three 'threads' with three memory tapes.

ASCII-only

@TrojanByAccident Ew be sure to make the parsed tuples use numeric constants instead of strings

ATaco

The first and third initialize it with the numbers 128 and 1 into their respective buffers.

TrojanByAccident

@ASCII-only I'm still not sure what a tuple is

ASCII-only

@TrojanByAccident (foo, bar)

PhiNotPi

03:52

@ConorO'Brien I was moderately surprised how, in this case at least, he seemed to at least improve in science/mathy skills (or at least become more interested in those subjects), not due to any loss of language skills.

ATaco

shrug

TrojanByAccident

@ASCII-only I don't use those

ASCII-only

@TrojanByAccident Well PigeonScript does

TrojanByAccident

explain

ASCII-only

@TrojanByAccident Just look at Jelly/CJam/Pyth/Fish/Golfish/Jellyfish/Charcoal (</shamelessselfpromotion>), look up is:a <language name> on CodeGolf.SE

Pavel

03:53

I just stumbled across the most JPEGy image on the internet.

El'endia Starman

@TrojanByAccident It's like a list, but can't be changed. (At least, that's how it is in Python.)

ASCII-only

@TrojanByAccident What are these

@El'endiaStarman He's using Python

PhiNotPi

was that from an image compression challenge?

El'endia Starman

@ASCII-only Oh, perfect.

Pavel

Yes

ASCII-only

03:54

@PhiNotPi Yes, the Starry Night one

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@ConorO'Brien no, because they aren't quite a dupe

thus sorta

Pavel

190

Q: Paint Starry Night, objectively, in 1kB of code

Below is a 386x320 png representation of van Gogh's Starry Night. Your goal is to reproduce this image as closely as possible, in no more than 1024 bytes of code. For the purposes of this challenge, the closeness of images is measured by the squared differences in RGB pixel values, as explaine...

TrojanByAccident

@ASCII-only Technically, I didn't write that. And I thought you meant as a data type, not as function inputs

ASCII-only

@TrojanByAccident ... It is a data type

Your function argument is a tuple

TrojanByAccident

I'm confused

ASCII-only

03:55

parsed.append(("function", functions[c()])) has ("function", functions[c()]) as its argument

double parens don't mean anything special in Python, just that you're giving a function a sole tuple argument

TrojanByAccident

Ah, I didn't see the double parens

ATaco

Tuples don't exist in Lua but they also do because Lua actually doesn't like anyone.

TrojanByAccident

@ATaco Lua is great for games, and nothing else. Anyone using Lua in real-life situations should be burned at the Stake

ATaco

I'm writing Threead in Lua.

Mitch Schwartz

@Sherlock9 👌

TrojanByAccident

03:58

@ATaco *flips table*

Pavel

Does anyone remember that pointless discussion yesterday about the one SE site that used IRC instead of chat?

Programmers.se's chat has been inactive for almost a year.

ATaco

github.com/TehFlaminTaco/Threead

ASCII-only

@TrojanByAccident Lua is great for a lot

ATaco

Threead Github.

ASCII-only

IIRC Maltysen primarily uses Lua (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, too lazy to look it up in PPCG.SE)

ATaco

04:04

I use either Lua or RProgN for most of my answers.

quartata

@Pavel The Whiteboard?!!

Pavel

Whut

I can't see anything called that

quartata

That's Programmers main chat. And it's definitely not dead.

Pavel

I can't find it

At all

Oh no, I'm blind

Ahhhhhh

quartata

You can check my rooms list

Pavel

04:08

Oh man, starboard is on point rn.

@ATaco what's the print command in Threead?

ATaco

o

Pavel

"Hello, World!"
               o

ATaco

Right now all the memory tapes are printed, too. For debugging.

Pavel

?

ATaco

String Constructor's aren't added, yet.

Also, It would be:

"Hello, World!"o

Because you don't need the other two tapes for that.

Pavel

04:11

o can read it's own tape?

ATaco

If it reads a single value, it usually reads its own tape.

If it reads two values, it reads the other two.

TrojanByAccident

I'm going to un-star orlp's message

oh, whoops, I think my computer's glitched

the number went up instead of down

Pavel

You can't unstar after that long

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel I'm well aware :P

Pavel

Will you make an if/else construct, or is the loop construct sufficient?

ATaco

04:15

Loop construct is sufficient, although I may be able to add an if/else.

"Hello, World!"o now works as expected.

Pavel

You mind if I ping dennis to add it to TIO?

ATaco

Go for it, Although it's still missing a lot.

Pavel

That's what pulls are for

TrojanByAccident

04:42

Is Codeship a good CI provider?

Or rather, which is better, GitLab, or Codeship?

or travis-ci

although I'm mostly wondering about the first two

ASCII-only

IDK i think most use Travis/AppVeyor depending on the OS

Downgoat

@TrojanByAccident Depends on what you're doing

Travis.Ci is basically go-to option for 99% of projects

if you have special/specific needs then you should consider another CI

TrojanByAccident

well, travis doesn't really explain how to set up travis files in the repo

which is my main thing

Pavel

Isn't that what you said about node.js

Downgoat

huh?

You mean artifacts or your travis.yml?

TrojanByAccident

04:50

travis.yml

Downgoat

docs.travis-ci.com/user/customizing-the-build

Travis also has a really helpful getting started guide

TrojanByAccident

Ah

And I already read the second one

Another thing is that I'm looking for one that can build with just javascript, if that's possible

as opposed to using node_js

Downgoat

wait what, why are you using CI for JavaScript?

quartata

@Downgoat says the person using CI for JavaScript

Downgoat

@quartata JavaScript =/= ECMAScript ಠ_ಠ

That's like saying C++ is C

even though JavaScript is more like C-- in that analogy

quartata

04:54

CI is more about tests than building though.

@Downgoat More like saying gcc is C

Downgoat

@quartata no that would be saying SpiderMonkey is JavaScript

Pavel

@TrojanByAccident This is downgoat telling you to use ECMAScript

Downgoat

JavaScript refers to the browser version of ECMAScript

TrojanByAccident

ehh

quartata

@Downgoat OK it's more like saying the Linux ABI is C. (Happy?)

The standard for the implementation as opposed to the implementation itself

Downgoat

04:57

ok yeah sure

ATaco

I was tempted to name it threeead i was getting over the top of the three department

TrojanByAccident

can you use multiple languages for a test in travis?

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